The morality (or lack of?) of buying Lego sets

[CyclonatorZ]

Yeah, I know, totally sensationalist title, but this is a subject that I am legitimately curious about. It all started when I read the news that Hasbro is moving production to India, for reasons that are about as transparent (and transparently greedy) as can be. As someone who has recently poured a sizeable chunk of money into amassing a horde of Transformers, this was rather disconcerting to say the least. I had always been aware of the rather soulless economics underlying my hobbies, but I had mostly pushed this knowledge deep into my subconscious, going about my business without paying mind to the reality of said "business." I can't really help but pay attention, though, when Hasbro and other companies are fleeing China - because it is ever so slightly beginning to grasp the concept of basic human rights, and thus is no longer the cheapest source of mass labor.

 

Which brings me to Lego. As far as I know, they aren't moving to India yet, but... they've been taking advantage of cheap labor just as readily as any other company. I'm not sure it really matters that they have a supposed "code of conduct," especially since we know of at least one confirmed case where they let one of their affiliates outright ignore it. I won't post any details here, but if you do the research, you'll know just how abysmally the workers printing some of our officially licensed lego books were (and potentially still are being) treated. Can we really assume that this is just an isolated case, or that Lego corporate didn't actually know about this abuse? I'm not certain I can, and it makes me rather uneasy about my rekindled interest in Bionicle and Lego, to say the least.

 

Am I crazy, or am I not the only person mulling this over? Or maybe I'm just not phrasing it very well, I dunno. I'll be honest, I'm kind of a a whirlwind of conflicting emotions right now, and I'm probably not thinking 100 percent straight. If there is a TLDR version of this ramble, it's probably the following question: have you ever considered whether or not it is moral to purchase the products of and, ultimately, be a fan of a company like Lego?

[The 1st Shadow]

 the workers printing some of our officially licensed lego books were (and potentially still are being) treated. Can we really assume that this is just an isolated case, or that Lego corporate didn't actually know about this abuse?

Um, for one thing, books aren't actually printed by LEGO themselves. As far as I know, all the chapter and activity books are produced through Scholastic, which is a company entirely separate from LEGO. As such, this would not be an issue related to LEGO, but rather Scholastic.

 

Unless, however, they meant to say "instruction manuals." If that's what they meant, then they need to work on their word choice. Honestly, this seems like a minor issue with a factory entirely separated by multiple countries from LEGO's official headquarters.

Edited February 3, 2016 by The 1st Shadow

[fishers64]

I noticed that Lego was trying to take immediate action to fix the lapse in the Code of Conduct, however. One confirmed case isn't enough to prove that the Code doesn't work, it just proves that one company tried to flaunt the rules and is now getting penalized. 

 

Lego seems to me to be one of the most ethical companies out there, and to be honest I never even considered the idea that they could be mistreating their workers. Apple, on the other hand...

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

cheap factory labor abuse is no new news to me, and if i honestly avoided any product that may have come from a factory of such nature? well, i wouldn't have a lot of  stuff tbh, oft times the manufacturing ends of goods can be a bit... problematic, in favor of saving a buck,

 

BUT from what i gather, TLG isn't quite that kind of big bad metal-waste-in-the-river supervillain corporate greed cartoon cliche*. there's cases of, stuff, yeah, but as far as companies go? they seem to be keeping themselves quite clean, (even if most actions could theoretically be seen as just an attempt to preserve their family-friendly face.)

 

*note, a lot of companies are, and they'd honestly probably sing a musical number about it too, if they could sing.

[Ghidora131]

Well, LEGO has done a few rather foul things in the past, but sweatshop slavery is not exactly on their line of work.

 

Although I can't speak for it in its entirely, LEGO of China (that branch) does tend to cheap out their toys on their customers anyway.

[masterchirox580]

I'd say the fact that they primarily use European plastic means there is less likely to be worker's rights issues. But it's kinda difficult to avoid these things. Most products that guarantee that the production was completely ethical are usually expensive. I must admit though I give the user props for bringing up something that does really need to be talked about. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by masterchirox580

[Ta-metru_defender]

Eh. Way I see it nothing's perfectly kosher. Based on a lot of the press that Lego's gotten regarding their production, though, I feel good about Lego. But that may just be because I like Lego.

[CyclonatorZ]

I noticed that Lego was trying to take immediate action to fix the lapse in the Code of Conduct, however. One confirmed case isn't enough to prove that the Code doesn't work, it just proves that one company tried to flaunt the rules and is now getting penalized. 

 

Lego seems to me to be one of the most ethical companies out there, and to be honest I never even considered the idea that they could be mistreating their workers. Apple, on the other hand...

 

 

I'd like to believe they are as ethical as everyone believes, I really would. I'm just rather skeptical. For all I know, their Chinese factory (and all their other factories) could be some of the most pleasant factories in the world to work in, like the factory my dad currently works at is. I think its just as likely, however, that the people working their are as underpaid and overtasked as in the rest of China's factories. And knowing what I do know about the typical hours and rate of pay, it would not be a pretty picture to say the least.

 

Eh. Way I see it nothing's perfectly kosher. Based on a lot of the press that Lego's gotten regarding their production, though, I feel good about Lego. But that may just be because I like Lego.

 

You hit the nail on the head, as have a few other people in this topic. Ultimately, everything we own here in America is tainted to some degree by raw economics. Ultimately, I didn't raise this issues because I think I'm a terrible person for supporting Lego, even if they are as bad as I fear. I'm just at the point in life where I'm thinking a bit more about my purpose in the world and what I can do to make it a better place. I'll be honest, at age 23, with a full time job and more money in the bank than I know what to do with, I've learned that the amount of stuff I have doesn't really have any measurable effect on my happiness. I also have a lot of time to think about things while at work, and so I'm increasingly thinking about complicated issues like the one I raised in this topic.

 

Anyway, I'll probably still buy Lego sets, and Transformers, but probably not as frequently, and I'd also kind of like to find a way to use my hobbies to bring joy to other people. Honestly, I'm kind of tired of cleaning that big ol castle and pirate ships that have been sitting on my shelves for ages now. Maybe some kid in town could make use of them more than I do, someone who might not be nearly as privileged as me.

 

*Alright, I think I've rambled enough for now*

[Master Inika]

I'm pretty LEGO is one of the more ethical companies I buy from. Even when they do screw up, like with the Chinese political artist, they make an effort to find a fair balance between taking a moral high ground and being a business.

[aldero]

A good point is being raised here, but I were ever to be concerned about the ethics of LEGO's production habits, I would have heard about it already. As far as I can remember, there have been absolutely no fiascos of any kind that have questioned their production habits at all. Sure, that statement might be concerning to some per se, but I don't think that a company with such a great reputation around the world for having an incredibly high standard of customer communication, toy quality and service would be the same company that would stir up controversy with their questionable factory working conditions.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I sometimes watch PBS and stuff and i have heard nothing but great things concerning Lego. A shame on that one mess up in China but I hope that it has been fixed and it is only a one-time thing. I guarantee you that they aren't Wal-Mart, those blasted evil slavers(!!)... sorry, can't talk too much about Wal-Mart economics without bringing out an ugly side of me.

[Bonkle]

You don't have to be morally gray if you just buy from Bricklink.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

If Legos made for the Chinese market are of lower quality, I suspect it was a choice between cutting costs or not being able to sell in that market at a price that was both affordable and profitable.

 

As for cheap labor, there is no shortage of people capable of doing menial tasks, and most such tasks can be done by a machine. As such, it just common sense that such tasks will gravitate towards those willing to do it for the least pay, and if enough cheap cog-in-the-machine workers can't be found, they'll likely be replaced with less metaphorical cogs. The Chinese factory workers might have small paychecks, but how many would lose those paychecks if they ever grew large enough that it would be cheaper to replace them with a machine?

Edited February 4, 2016 by Jeffery Mewtamer

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

You don't have to be morally gray if you just buy from Bricklink.

 

isn't that just twice a grey? the bricks come from the company anyway, but now you're also possibly buying em from scalpers n whatnot who buy sets in bulk to shill out their peices. o:

 

seems there's no end to moral ambiguity here. x;

[Alyska]

Also consider what's actually involved in the production process. As far as I know, there's no handpainted items or hand-sewn fabric articles in any Lego sets- almost everything would be done by machines. You just need people to make sure the machines are working and stocked with the materials they need, and people to take care of transporting goods and materials.

 

While this doesn't automatically mean the workers are being paid adequately, it does mean that their work conditions most likely wouldn't involve intensive labour, crammed, unhygienic environments and exposure to harmful substances like the sweatshops that produce toys for many other companies. 

[CyclonatorZ]

A lot of helpful posts here, everyone. Thanks for all the analysis. I don't really know a lot about what actually goes into making our favorite toy, so I appreciate all the feedback from people who are more knowledgeable than me. I think you have definitely quelled my fears somewhat, and I probably won't worry quite as much about buying Lego sets as I was when I first made this topic.

[Ta-metru_defender]

 

You don't have to be morally gray if you just buy from Bricklink.

 

isn't that just twice a grey? <snip>

 

Right? Because it's Lego, but Lego's getting no money. Aftermarkets in general are mildly iffy: what's the difference between piracy and buying an album second hand? Neither time is the artist/label getting money. More to the point of Bricklink there was that thing sometime ago about the guy who was selling stolen Lego on the site which, well, yeah.

 

<snip>

The Chinese factory workers might have small paychecks, but how many would lose those paychecks if they ever grew large enough that it would be cheaper to replace them with a machine?

I think this is the big thing people miss a lot when discussing poor labor conditions/low wages: how's it compare? A lousy job in a factory mayn't be the best, but in many communities it's a great alternative to less savory work. Consumerism in general is not a simple topic at all, but I do appreciate Lego's decent practices making it a little easier for at least one brand.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Probably the most significant difference between second hand and digital piracy is that second hand is a scarcity market while digital piracy is post-scarcity, or in other words, finite supply versus infinite supply. A second hand market can only exist where there is a significant number of people willing to part with the product at some point after purchase, and I'd argue that a second hand market with supply sufficient to negatively impact first hand sales is a strong indicator that the product is of sub-par quality.

 

Also, I'd argue scalpers aren't part of the second hand market, but rather an artificial extension to the first hand market's supply chain.

 

In any case, unless you're buying directly from the manufacturer, they got their money long before you decided to purchase it, be it from a retailer, a scalper, or a second hand dealer. Whether the supply chain is directly manufacturer > consumer or something longer like manufacturer > distributor> retailer> scalper > consumer or anything in-between, the manufacturer only gets paid once for each unit of product no matter how many times it changes hands and gets marked-up.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Jeffery Mewtamer

[Ta-metru_defender]

Probably the most significant difference between second hand and digital piracy is that second hand is a scarcity market while digital piracy is post-scarcity, or in other words, finite supply versus infinite supply. A second hand market can only exist where there is a significant number of people willing to part with the product at some point after purchase, and I'd argue that a second hand market with supply sufficient to negatively impact first hand sales is a strong indicator that the product is of sub-par quality.

 

Also, I'd argue scalpers aren't part of the second hand market, but rather an artificial extension to the first hand market's supply chain.

 

In any case, unless you're buying directly from the manufacturer, they got their money long before you decided to purchase it, be it from a retailer, a scalper, or a second hand dealer. Whether the supply chain is directly manufacturer > consumer or something longer like manufacturer > distributor> retailer> scalper > consumer or anything in-between, the manufacturer only gets paid once for each unit of product no matter how many times it changes hands and gets marked-up.

Holy cyprinidae, you know your economics. Hats off to you. The morality argument remains, but eh. Scarcity is a great point, though; there's no way to get, say, a TNGM 'officially' so you'll have to buy it on the aftermarket. Are the folks who are then marking it up in the morally gray area? Lego's in the clear here... maybe... we're the monsters...

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

what i meant by "even greyer" is that by buyign secondhand to supposedly dodge Lego's possible corruption, you're actually just paying a middleman who may or may not have an even more unusual set of morals to toss into the mix, the money still went to the company but now there's money going to other parties n it can get muddier (if you really were trying to avoid muddy)

 

ofc there's soem tihngs no longer available in stores but i was responding and referring to specifically doing it to "avoid the moral grey zone" o:

[danny316p]

I'd also kind of like to find a way to use my hobbies to bring joy to other people.

That may be the best justification as to why so many of us do FOL shows and conventions. Especially with something like Bionicle, with a multi-year storyline, I've been surprised by how excited some younger kids get at even just seeing sets from years that they weren't able to enjoy the first time around. I know I've changed the way I build based on the thought of doing more exciting things at events where we get to share the hobby. Interestingly, one of the more memorable discussions I've had over a Technic MOC was with a homeless man who was reminded of happier times when he used to tinker with similar things. It's impossible to predict how you can connect with people by doing LEGO displays, but it's been surprisingly positive for me overall.

 

For what it's worth, The LEGO Group is an enormous corporate bureaucracy - it's more than just a large company, it's a group of companies and the name is licensed out even further than that. For the scope of what they do, I'm impressed that they don't mess up more often - there are so many people across so many countries, that it's a given things will go wrong. As it is, you see different policies in different places (compare LEGO stores operated by LEGO Brand Retail with LEGOLAND stores operated by Merlin Entertainment) and in different countries (consider monobrand stores in countries where Brand Retail doesn't operate or charity partnerships that only happen in certain places).

 

Then again, you can probably expect a biased response when you ask a question like this on a LEGO fan site. We've obviously already decided that we like LEGO at some level...

[Ta-metru_defender]

Then again, you can probably expect a biased response when you ask a question like this on a LEGO fan site. We've obviously already decided that we like LEGO at some level...

 

So the obvious solution is to go to a MegaBloks site and ask them how they feel.

[Sappholopod]

This is a great set of questions to ask, and it's good to try and be aware of where the things you enjoy come from. Within the system we have now, I suppose LEGO is acting more or less ethically, or at least as ethically as a gigantic toy company can, anyways. 

 

Hopefully we can fix or replace the economic systems that cause problems like this constant race to the manufacturing bottom, but I'm not putting that on LEGO's lap.

 

But hey, at least they're looking into high quality non-oil based plastics, that's something, right?

Edited March 8, 2016 by Cabooceratops