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Memoirs of the Dead - not on BS01?


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#1 Offline Jam Pot Studios

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 07:30 AM

I've been away from BZP for a while now, so I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the results for the Memoirs of the Dead contest were well and truly out. Firstly, I'd like to say a big congratulations to all the winners; I've only read a couple of the winning stories so far but I'm impressed, fitting additions to the canon and definitely worthy of their placings.

 

However, I was a bit confused when I went to BS01 and couldn't find any of the information from these short stories - or the short stories themselves - anywhere on the site, which is a tad confusing, as I was under the impression that the winning entries were to become canon, and BS01 is basically the de facto repository for BIONICLE canon.

 

So my question is essentially, why are the stories and their canon not canon, as promised?

 

I don't want to seem rude about this but it strikes me as highly unfair. Everyone - not just the winners - put a lot of hard work into their entries for this contest. It was, after all, the last chance to be a part of Generation 1, a storyline so special to many people, special enough that a community as larger as BZPower even formed in the first place. People were entering with the understanding that what they would do would be a part of that storyline, and though it may seem trivial, having your work on BS01 is like quantifiable evidence that, even in a small way, you're a part of it.

 

Before anyone brings up contact with Greg Farshety as having an effect on the canonicity of entries, this is from the contest's actual thread, where he basically allows the contest to act independently of further involvement from him, so needing to run the entries by Greg (who is understandably a very busy man and understandably is unlikely to have time to read and approve the winners) is not an issue. Here is the quote:

 

Quote

bonesiii: Hey, wanted to run [an] S&T contest [idea] by you, for permission for the winning entries to be considered official....Memoirs of the Dead -- along the lines of your serial for Makuta Mutran; members would write SSes telling the past story of any character, as long as that character is currently dead in official story. Any MU [Matoran Universe] character anyways.Of course, [this] will have judges making sure entries fit with official story. What do you think?GregF: Okay by me

 

If the prize was intended to include being added to BS01, then there's no question that they should be on BS01. That was the prize, so whether Generation 1 is still active or not is irrelevant, the prize must be delivered unless that's physically impossible (which it isn't, it would take one person an afternoon at most to fix up the BS01 pages with this information).

 

If the prize was never intended to include being added to BS01, then honestly the wording of the contest should have been clearer on that. As it is, it's a little misleading.

 

Again, I'm sorry if any of this sounds rude, I'm doing my best not to come across in that manner. I just feel a little frustrated for the winners, whose hard work and dedication seems to have been either ignored or forgotten.

 

And let this not be a rant at BS01, because it's not intended as that either. Five years after the Battle of Bara Magna and I still have it bookmarked in my web browser. I've always been amazed by how well-constructed a site it is, from the level of detail in pages' contents to the site's design aesthetics, and there's no doubt in my mind at all as to why it is the de facto source for BIONICLE canon. If anything, the fact that getting your work into a page on a fan-made wiki can be a prize is a credit to the site itself.

 

I'm hoping that there has just been an error in communication somewhere, one that can be resolved easily enough. If it's an issue of peoplepower (and I understand how time-consuming bringing an entire wiki up to standard can be), I'm more than happy to sit down for a day in the Easter holidays and add the information myself. I just want - and I think a lot of people will agree with me - the winners of the contest to get the recognition that they were led to believe they had earned.

 

Best wishes to you all (as I wouldn't be making a post like this if this wasn't a community I cared deeply about, no matter how inactive on it I may be),

 

-Jam Pot


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#2 Offline TheSkeletonMan939

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 07:53 AM

Greg didn't meticulously go through each story, so technically they're not canon.  <_<


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#3 Offline Jam Pot Studios

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 09:52 AM

Greg didn't meticulously go through each story, so technically they're not canon.  <_<

 

But as far as I can tell, that conversation that I have quoted is Greg giving permission for others to go through and approve the winning stories on his behalf.


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#4 Offline TheSkeletonMan939

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 10:08 AM

I know. I believe the problem is that previous entries were actually reviewed by Greg. What Greg gave here is a blanket pass to the winning entries, which in my eyes is enough to warrant them being put up on BS01, since, c'mon, it's not like there's going to be any future canon for it to work against.


Edited by TheSkeletonMan939, Mar 06 2016 - 10:08 AM.

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#5 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 04:49 PM

I appreciate the speech, but you should probably take it to a talkpage for where it is supposed to be on BS01, instead of posting it here.
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#6 Offline Jam Pot Studios

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 05:18 PM

I appreciate the speech, but you should probably take it to a talkpage for where it is supposed to be on BS01, instead of posting it here.

 

I can post it on BS01 as well (though I'm not aware of exactly where on the site to post it) but since the contest was a BZPower contest, I think it is equally appropriate here.


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#7 Offline Windseeker

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Posted Mar 06 2016 - 07:20 PM

Moving to BS01/HS01, in any case.


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#8 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Mar 07 2016 - 12:36 PM

I appreciate the speech, but you should probably take it to a talkpage for where it is supposed to be on BS01, instead of posting it here.

 
I can post it on BS01 as well (though I'm not aware of exactly where on the site to post it) but since the contest was a BZPower contest, I think it is equally appropriate here.

You could go to the Talk of the Main Page and create a sub-section there to discuss the topic.

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#9 Offline Jam Pot Studios

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Posted Mar 13 2016 - 02:39 PM

 

 

I appreciate the speech, but you should probably take it to a talkpage for where it is supposed to be on BS01, instead of posting it here.

 
I can post it on BS01 as well (though I'm not aware of exactly where on the site to post it) but since the contest was a BZPower contest, I think it is equally appropriate here.

 

You could go to the Talk of the Main Page and create a sub-section there to discuss the topic.

 

 

I did so a few days ago. Thanks for the pointer.

Still, while I appreciate that you guys have pointed me in the right direction, I feel we might have gone off-track. Whether it's here or on BS01 (or both, as it now is) I feel like we should discuss this more. It's only fair to the people who won the contest.


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#10 Offline unknown456

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Posted Mar 13 2016 - 10:15 PM

(I realize that I should probably be posting this on the BS01 talk page for this, but seeing as how I don't have a BS01 account already, and I don't want to make one just for this occasion, I'm just gonna post what I think of the situation here.)

 

I feel like there might be a compromise/middle ground solution to this problem, that might satisfy both sides in this situation (pro-post to BS01 and anti-post to BS01).

 

My idea is basically, add the stories to BS01, but, at the top of each page/story (or in the 'Trivia' section, but ideally at the top of the page), add a little, erm, not quite sure what it's called. Template? Tab? Basically, a note type of thing, similar to what exists at the top of each page of, let's say, the 'Featured Page' or an 'Article for Deletion' page (see Makoki Stone and Heat pages, respectively, on BS01 to get what I'm talking about). Anyways, create that type of thing and have it say that it's psedocanon or something like that, and then, below that, elaborate upon the details. So basically, it would go something along the lines of this at the top of each page, inside a little ...box... thingy:

 

 

This (page/article/story) is considered (apocrypha/pseudocanon)

This (page/article/story) is considered (apocrypha/pseudocanon) by this wiki, as, while the competition it was originally a part of was stated to be canon by BIONILE story writer Greg Farshtey, this specific story was not personally vetted by him, and thus is considered (apocrypha/pseudocanon) by the (standards/guidelines/rules) of this wiki. 

 

That might be a little too wordy, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm trying to get at. Basically, it's an appeal to both camps of the argument, as, while it's actually posted on BS01, it's fully stated that it's not technically canon. But, like I said, it's just what I think, and probably doesn't mean much in the long run.

 

(Also, just as one last word, this could be applied to both the Memoirs winners, and the 'A Thousand Years Untold 2' winners.)

 

EDIT: As it turns out, something similar to this already exists on BS01. Look at some of the Xian Weapons (like the Judgement Cannon or Earth Claw), and you'll see it.


Edited by unknown456, Mar 19 2016 - 10:31 PM.

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#11 Offline Kraahlix

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Posted Mar 14 2016 - 09:16 PM

This has always bugged me.

 

I can say that the BS01 staff didn't come to a consensus on the decision, so I appreciate that this is presently up for discussion and review.


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#12 Offline Jam Pot Studios

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Posted Mar 15 2016 - 04:44 PM

This has always bugged me.

 

I can say that the BS01 staff didn't come to a consensus on the decision, so I appreciate that this is presently up for discussion and review.

 

Is there a more direct way of getting in touch with them?

 

What course of action would you suggest? I would really appreciate any help in bringing more attention and discussion to this matter.


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#13 Offline Kraahlix

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Posted Mar 15 2016 - 06:22 PM


This has always bugged me.

I can say that the BS01 staff didn't come to a consensus on the decision, so I appreciate that this is presently up for discussion and review.


Is there a more direct way of getting in touch with them?

What course of action would you suggest? I would really appreciate any help in bringing more attention and discussion to this matter.
They should see the topic here before too long, but you could always try Swert's talk page or go through and Articles for Creation process and mention the proposed compromise above. =)

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#14 Offline Swert

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Posted Mar 16 2016 - 05:16 PM

Hi Jam Pot Studios,

As Kraahlix said, we haven't actually come to a consensus on the subject, however it's the current stance that it remain off of BS01. We never actually offered to post the winners as a prize during this or the A Thousand Years Untold 2 contest, but at least I am open to the idea.

The easiest place to actually suggest we add them is right here: http://biosector01.c...es_for_Creation If you submit your idea to the Articles for Creation page, the community will have an opportunity to share in on discussing the pros and cons of adding it to BS01 :)

We do appreciate you keeping interest in the content of BS01, and we look forward to your contributions!

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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2016 - 09:13 AM

Quick history of what happened here, as I see not every detail of this was mentioned above:

 

Basically, the old system was that story experts carefully reviewed everything and ask Greg anything that could be questionable. Still a chance of something being missed, of course, but we had honestly far more rigorous standards than much of the LEGO-produced story. Previous contest winners had become canon in this same way.

 

However, as the complexity of revealed story went up (and many original fans moved on), Greg made a rule that he would check entries in later contests themselves, so this one fell in a middle ground area. I now forget the exact timing of it, but the original agreement was indeed clear that they are fully canon. And since Greg was completely out of contact for a while, I think we got used to not being able to run them by him, and even when he was back and his memory of the old days was still clear enough it would have been useful, nobody thought to ask him to review them. I'm not sure if he would be confident enough in his memory now for it to be worth it. For a while it was unclear whether it was "definitely canon on the old system" or "the new system makes it unclear", but Greg later weighed in and confirmed he doesn't consider them canon anymore.

 

I would support BS01 including them as non-canon with a clarification that they were originally going to be, since some clearly non-canon content is on there, and since Greg did originally approve it. And since even intentional LEGO-produced canon has some accidental contradictions I don't think there would be an issue (even if we did eventually find a few errors despite all the checking) with Greg "re"-canonizing them whether or not he does ever read them, but that's his call.


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#16 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Mar 19 2016 - 09:00 PM

For a while it was unclear whether it was "definitely canon on the old system" or "the new system makes it unclear", but Greg later weighed in and confirmed he doesn't consider them canon anymore.

Wait, so they aren't canon? I don't remember that being talked about/announced O_o

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#17 Offline Jam Pot Studios

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Posted Mar 20 2016 - 05:32 PM

Wow, thanks for the detailed lowdown guys, that's given me a far better grasp of the situation here.

 

Swert and Kraahlix, thanks for pointing me to that page, I will go ahead and make cases for the pages in question in the next few days.

 

I also definitely agree with some kind of non-canon/semi-canon warning going onto the pages; I don't know if the '01 Matoran whose names were never fully canonised are also subject to such warnings but I think this distinction could be a useful tool especially in cases like these where it's become a grey area. If this could also for the Thousand Years Untold contest, I would be down for suggesting those on the Articles for Creation page too.

 

As I said, it will be a few days before I can submit, as I have a fair amount of work I need to do, but if these pages are approved I am all for helping actually create and maintain them myself if needs be.

 

Thanks agains for your input everyone. I'm not as active within the community as I used to be so I really appreciate your help in creating a solid picture of what's going on, it's really helped not just regarding this matter but in giving me a snapshot of the workings of the community too. I hope to be a larger part of it again in the future.


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#18 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 20 2016 - 07:37 PM

IMO someone needs to hunt down the Greg answer where he said the Memoirs entries aren't canon, if this is indeed true.
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#19 Offline Kraahlix

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Posted Mar 20 2016 - 11:40 PM

Right, I don't remember that statement from him either.
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#20 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 22 2016 - 09:07 PM

A search for the term memoir turns up nothing: https://community.le...rch_type=thread
 
A search for the term "contest": nothing related. 
 
Search for BZPower: nothing. 
 
I'm doubling this over with a site search from Google. So far it seems that this was never even brought up. 
 
Except for this: 
 

There has been an interesting question concerning A Thousand Years Untold 2 some days ago. The question have been cut when Greg replied but here's the original post with the question and here is the answer.
 

 

Also, another question. A couple years ago, there was an official S&T Contest called A Thousand Years Untold 2. It was the follow-up to a previos contest called A Thousand years untold, which users submitted short stories about Mata Nui, Metru Nui, and Voya Nui during the thousand years after the Great Cataclysm. The winners were canonized. THis contest deals with other islands which were not revealed at that point (eg. Mahri Nui, Stelt, Karda Nui). Should the winners of the second contest be considered canon, as the contest was intended? The contest description says that was the case.

Re: your last question. I do not recall ever seeing the stories from the second contest, and if I have not seen and approved them, then they can't be canonized.

 

 

I guess that they decided to apply the rule from TYU2 to Memoirs under the rule of precedent.


Edited by fishers64, Mar 22 2016 - 09:10 PM.

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