If it's not a continuation...

[2Tie]

replying to the opening post:
By definition, a 'true' reboot can't really be a continuation at all. From wikipedia's article on the concept: "In serial fiction, to reboot means to discard all continuity in an established series in order to recreate its characters, timeline and backstory from the beginning." I also disagree with your opening statement suggesting reboots need to pull from existing lore to be good... Examples of rebooted series that come to mind (based on aggregated opinions) include Star Fox -> Star Fox 64, Prince of Persia -> PoP:Sands of Time, DOOM -> DOOM, Batman (by tim burton) -> Batman Begins, and let's not forget My Little Pony. Though, note that most of these reboots actually share plot ideas and character concepts with one another, whether a straight retelling or a re-imagining.

In the second paragraph, you state that you don't like Gen2 if it were standalone. That's completely fine. You state that you'd like it better if it were a continuation of Gen1. That's also completely fine. Whether or not Gen1 and Gen2 are chronologically linked, the events of Gen2 don't change, only the context of them.


For the brief discussion about whether Gen1 fully ended or not, I would like to point out that the overarching story told in Gen1, the story of Mata Nui, was concluded. From the events leading to his creation up through his death, up until the unfinished serials. I am comfortable with saying that LEGO decided to conclude Gen1 at a stopping point that made sense. Remember that Farshtey was not actually the top of the chain for Bionicle's story, he was just allowed to flesh out or change anything not explicitly told to him by the Bionicle story team in Denmark each year.


And then for the debate of how 'deep' the lore is between the two, let's actually line up the sources of canon information that both generations have had in their first two years:

So far, Gen2 has two graphic novels, a web animation series, a small tv series, two chapter books, no (canon) videogames, and assorted lore entries on the website.
Gen1, as of the end of 2002, had a little over one year of bi-monthly comics, a web animation series, no books (Chronicles 1 was released in 2003 as did the Official Guide), two canon videogames (Tales of the Tohunga and MNOG), sparse media CDs, and assorted lore entries on the website.

Jan 1st, 2002's state of the Gen1 lore was the GBA game, MNOG, and the three comics, with little overall overlap. Jan 1st, 2016's state of the Gen2 lore was two chapter books, a graphic novel, and the web animation series, with a lot of overall overlap. (If I'm forgetting something, please correct me.) This is conjecture, but i'd venture to say that the quantity of lore and story is about the same when redundancy is taken out, but the lack of games seems to make Gen2 lack the same immersion, as well as having less fans able to access a good portion of the 'main' section of the lore (ignoring BS01).
 

A touch upon the previous post: Comparing LEGO's efforts in 2000 and 2001 to LEGO's efforts in 2015 to advertise the line, I want to say that LEGO went nowhere near the amount of effort this time as they did back then to hype the line, and they didn't have to: In 2015, the fanbase was the hype engine in itself, even before the official reveal. I also want to point out that the 'standard' LEGO has to live up to is different from person to person. Set-wise, the Protectors having the same mask mould and not having names is fine, you don't need them to play with them. But from a story standpoint, I agree that there is not really much to set them apart from the other villagers, and their names aren't really featured prominently in the media that most people interested in the line will see, and that disappoints me as well. However, the Matoran in 2001 and the first half of 2002 were pretty much exactly damsels in distress, needing rescue from the Toa, excepting Takua and his Company. In Gen2, the Protectors fill this role.

All in all, whether or not anyone prefers or likes either gen, that's their opinion. Arguing opinions don't tend to change them. Believing what a creator says about their work is up to you, but that seems like a reliable source of information to me. That's why I think Gen2 is a reboot, because LEGO said so. Farshtey said that there was more to Gen1 after the comics ended, and people believe him...

[Tuuli]

Yes and while that is all fine and dandy, why did I have a better understanding of the story back in 2001 than I do for 2015? Also when you say the fanbase was the hype machine, you're absolutely right. They automatically assumed that we would buy and love the new bionicle so they didn't put forth nearly as much effort, time, or money. And that's a core reason why the new bionicle feels more or less cheapened... The protectors also fill the role of only the turaga, and not villagers. I guess you could say they do, considering each villager and protector all have the same one mask.

[Tahu3.0]

G2 has a series in Netflix and Bionicle G1 does not have something even close to one and yea they had the movies but there bla in the designs they look soo different to the sets and the Netflix series at least does not do a mess like that so now i want someone who loves G1 and hates G2 to say to me they prefer mask of light than the Netflix series i dare someone.

 

1) Design:

 

2) Story:

 

3) Way they where released to the market:

 

So that and with other comparisons i think G2 is even BETTER that G1 if you give it more time.

[Bonkle]

Yes and while that is all fine and dandy, why did I have a better understanding of the story back in 2001 than I do for 2015? Also when you say the fanbase was the hype machine, you're absolutely right. They automatically assumed that we would buy and love the new bionicle so they didn't put forth nearly as much effort, time, or money. And that's a core reason why the new bionicle feels more or less cheapened... The protectors also fill the role of only the turaga, and not villagers. I guess you could say they do, considering each villager and protector all have the same one mask.

Wait - I don't understand. You criticized Gen2 for lacking depth and complexity, but now you say it's harder to understand?

[Millennium]

If G2 isn't living up to this G1 standard as you say, then how having G2 a continuation would make it better? I think it would be twice as worse, honestly.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that G2 could and should have more depth, but I see no point in the two universes being related.

 

If G2 Bionicle had a different name, would we still love/hate it as we do now? Because in the end G1 and G2 have very little in common. Yes there are masks and same names, but that aside? Maybe if we stop seeing G2 as the 'son' of G1 and more of a Constraction line on its own, we could start appreciating it for what it is, because all we are doing is drawing comparisons between the two. When G1 was out what did we compare it to? We should return to that state of mind.

[Bfahome]

Yes and while that is all fine and dandy, why did I have a better understanding of the story back in 2001 than I do for 2015?

I'd wager it's one of two reasons.

 

1) You didn't actually have that good of an understanding of the story in 2001.  You might know the 2001 story front to back, but that's with years of hindsight to help.  Remember that 2001 had no books, movies, or animations; those all came later and filled in the story a bit more.  At the time the only major story media were three comics, MNOG, and online bios.

 

2) You aren't following the current story.  I mean, you make it painfully obvious that you think new BIONICLE is cheap and bad, and that gives me the impression that you won't be very inclined to buy any of the current story media.  There are chapter books and graphic novels you can read if you want to understand the story.

 

Both reasons share roots in nostalgia.

 

so they didn't put forth nearly as much effort, time, or money

 

 

"I think it's worse" does not mean the designers aren't putting effort in, it just means you aren't appreciating that effort.

[Tuuli]

Oh yes the Netflix series definitely has cool 3D models and it's great that they actually look like the sets, though I can't much stand the cringe worthy dialogue and scenes. Sure the old bionicle movies had their moments of cringe, but at least they all actually made you care about the characters.

 

Now sure we should be looking at G2 as if it were it's own thing, and believe me I am, and it's still very terribly done. I am also not a big fan of the trope that Ekimu saves the Toa at the end of every year, it's like why even bother with these six imbeciles when the main man in charge is always scooping everyone out of danger. It makes me honestly worry what's going to happen when the Toa actually have to face Makuta himself. Will Ekimu step in for yet a third time and save everyone? It's what it really seems like. I've been talking to a lot more people about this that are not "die hard" fans of bionicle and each will agree from a non biased standing that the new bionicle is just not as good as the original. When I say I don't understand the new story, I really mean that I don't understand why all this hype and excitement was building up for a soggy "simplified" (dumbed down) story. People need to be challenged, especially kids. The old story challenged you enough to try and find out every little bit about their world. The new storyline might have kids wondering "wow these are super amazing and I want to find out everything about them!" Only to go finding nothing but simple terms such as "skull spiders" and then they would go back to playing on their phones. Lego should not have assumed people would want a "simple" story, because I can make as many "simple stories" as I want, all day. And that is why I simply cannot fully respect the new bionicle.

 

The first year had me interested, but that slowly died away while I waited and waited for story details. It's a shame that you have to buy the books to know what's really going on, I remember I knew a lot about the old bionicle story, and I never even read a single novel.

[Taria Pakari]

I am also not a big fan of the trope that Ekimu saves the Toa at the end of every year, it's like why even bother with these six imbeciles when the main man in charge is always scooping everyone out of danger.

Will Ekimu step in for yet a third time and save everyone?

 

I don't know where you're getting "third time" from, because that's only happened once.

[Pohaturon]

Oh yes the Netflix series definitely has cool 3D models and it's great that they actually look like the sets, though I can't much stand the cringe worthy dialogue and scenes. Sure the old bionicle movies had their moments of cringe, but at least they all actually made you care about the characters.

 

Now sure we should be looking at G2 as if it were it's own thing, and believe me I am, and it's still very terribly done. I am also not a big fan of the trope that Ekimu saves the Toa at the end of every year, it's like why even bother with these six imbeciles when the main man in charge is always scooping everyone out of danger. It makes me honestly worry what's going to happen when the Toa actually have to face Makuta himself. Will Ekimu step in for yet a third time and save everyone? It's what it really seems like. I've been talking to a lot more people about this that are not "die hard" fans of bionicle and each will agree from a non biased standing that the new bionicle is just not as good as the original. When I say I don't understand the new story, I really mean that I don't understand why all this hype and excitement was building up for a soggy "simplified" (dumbed down) story. People need to be challenged, especially kids. The old story challenged you enough to try and find out every little bit about their world. The new storyline might have kids wondering "wow these are super amazing and I want to find out everything about them!" Only to go finding nothing but simple terms such as "skull spiders" and then they would go back to playing on their phones. Lego should not have assumed people would want a "simple" story, because I can make as many "simple stories" as I want, all day. And that is why I simply cannot fully respect the new bionicle.

 

The first year had me interested, but that slowly died away while I waited and waited for story details. It's a shame that you have to buy the books to know what's really going on, I remember I knew a lot about the old bionicle story, and I never even read a single novel.

 

The G1 movies didn't do anything more than JtO did in terms of making the viewers care about the characters. Look, I love the G1 movies, but that's mostly nostalgia.

 

I keep seeing you bring up this argument of "Ekimu always saving the toa". I mean, you do realize that the second year of G2 has yet to end, and you're already calling Ekimu saving the toa at the end of the year a trope. Do you have some secret inside info regarding the storyline of summer 2016? And all of 2017 and beyond? Who says upgraded Ekimu won't be beaten into a pulp by Umarak the Destroyer? One of you most common "arguments" has literally no credibility.

 

As for that line about your talking to non-"die hard" fans and all of them agreeing with you is, again, pointless. There will be at least as many people who agree with you as many don't. That's how opinions work, this isn't a valid argument.

 

I keep seeing the anti-G2 crowd throw around the term "simplicity" and "complexity" while the only thing they can actually back it up with is saying that G1 had non-english fantasy names. Calling villagers "matoran", masks "kanohi", animals "rahi" may be cool (because it is), but it isn't complexity.

 

Also, as a writer, I can tell you that the simple equation of money = complexity. G1 had a bigger budget than G2, ergo it had a more complex story (Down the line, of course. '01 and '02 weren't that much more "complex" than '15 and '16.)

 

As many have said before, G1's complexity came from books, movies, comics, serials and so on. All of this came in '03 and later. As for your claims that you knew a lot of Bionicle lore without reading the books, I really doubt that.

 

Plus, since you've pretty much written off G2 because hating it is trendy or something I guess and clearly haven't spent the time to delve into its lore, I don't quite think you're the most credible judge of it's "complexity" as you like to call it.

 

 

[Bfahome]

Sure the old bionicle movies had their moments of cringe, but at least they all actually made you care about the characters.

This is still only based on how you felt then vs. how you feel now.  Do you believe if you'd been introduced to Mask of Light at around age 20 that you'd find the characters as endearing and the story as compelling as you did when you were seven or eight?

 

I am also not a big fan of the trope that Ekimu saves the Toa at the end of every year, it's like why even bother with these six imbeciles when the main man in charge is always scooping everyone out of danger. It makes me honestly worry what's going to happen when the Toa actually have to face Makuta himself. Will Ekimu step in for yet a third time and save everyone?

It would be kind of dumb if Ekimu didn't have a hand in stopping his brother.  I mean G1 Makuta was defeated by Mata Nui, with all of the Toa teams' apparent victories ending up as "haha this was PART OF MY PLAN all along!!"

 

As far as why the Toa even bother, well, if they hadn't shown up Ekimu would still be, y'know, in a coma.

 

I've been talking to a lot more people about this that are not "die hard" fans of bionicle and each will agree from a non biased standing that the new bionicle is just not as good as the original.

from a non biased standing

I don't believe this at all.  You ask people about things from their childhood and they'll almost always remember them more fondly than modern versions of those things.  Especially if they aren't clued in enough to make a full comparison.

 

The old story challenged you enough to try and find out every little bit about their world. The new storyline might have kids wondering "wow these are super amazing and I want to find out everything about them!" Only to go finding nothing but simple terms such as "skull spiders" and then they would go back to playing on their phones.

Okay, well how about kids ca. 2005 thinking "wow I wonder what these are" and then finding themselves neck-deep in a bunch of made-up terminology.  And then they go back to playing on their Pixters or whatever.

 

It's no more unlikely than the scenario you made up.

 

The first year had me interested, but that slowly died away while I waited and waited for story details. It's a shame that you have to buy the books to know what's really going on, I remember I knew a lot about the old bionicle story, and I never even read a single novel.

 

You don't have to buy the books to "know what's really going on".  You can get that from the online animations, or the character bios, or the story pages on the website.  Just like in G1, the books help to flesh out the details of the story, but aren't necessary to know what the plot is.  I haven't read any of the G2 chapter books, either, and I know what's going on.

[Aanchir]

As far as why the Toa even bother, well, if they hadn't shown up Ekimu would still be, y'know, in a coma.

Even besides that, people keep forgetting if the final battle in 2015 had been just Ekimu versus Kulta without any help from the Toa, it's fairly obvious that Ekimu would have lost. Kulta had the Mask of Creation, which gave him enough strength to shatter the masks of all six Toa. Ekimu had nothing but an extremely frail, weakened body. Without the Toa, Ekimu would have been a sitting duck. The only reason Ekimu was able to gain the upper hand is that the maskless Toa took a stand and mobbed the Skull Grinder, both distracting him and buying Ekimu enough time to reassemble the Hammer of Power. Then all it took was a clean swing to dislodge and reclaim the Mask of Creation.

 

Anybody who seriously believes Ekimu saved the day entirely on his own last year clearly didn't pay attention. And there's no reason to assume Ekimu will save the day on his own this year, either. Maybe the Toa will help him again this time. Maybe it's the Elemental Creatures' turn to help save the day. Maybe both!

 

I'm not pretending the Bionicle animations last year were the most cerebral thing I've ever seen, but if you can't manage to follow the events of two ninety-second videos, you're in no position to say the story is "too simple". The Bionicle writers aren't oversimplifying things, Tuuli — it's YOU who routinely oversimplifies THEIR story, because even in small, digestible portions it's more complex than you're willing to acknowledge.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Aanchir

[2Tie]

Yes and while that is all fine and dandy, why did I have a better understanding of the story back in 2001 than I do for 2015?

Here, allow me to help with that then :3

 

Summary of second half of 2001, using what was freely available on their site at the time:

Mata Nui is brought down by his brother Makuta, six Toa arrive on an island and are told to save Mata Nui. They venture across the land, collecting their masks of power while fighting the evil-controlled wildlife, occasionally aided by an elite group of the villagers. They wind up venturing into the lair of the being controlling the wildlife, and successfully break their controlling link, saving the villagers.

 

Summary of first half of 2015, using what was freely available on their site at the time:

Ekimu and his brother Makuta knock each other out as a result of an argument, six Toa arrive on their island and are told to save Ekimu. They venture across the land, collecting their gold masks of power while fighting evil-controlled wildlife, occasionally aided by an elite group of the villagers. They wind up venturing into the lair of the being controlling the wildlife, and successfully break their controlling link, saving the villagers.

 

BONUS! Second half of 2015:

The Toa continue onward into the lair, fighting Makuta's lieutenants, defeating them, and reaching Ekimu's tomb. And then they revive him! As thanks, Ekimu makes the Toa new armor.

 

...yes, i simplified both of them a lot, my apologies. Still, that should work as a rough outline, the 'gist' of the year. Does this help your understanding of gen2? :>

[Tuuli]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Well, I suppose I don't give G2 the credit it deserves, but we still have a long way to go before the story gets even a sprinkle bit interesting. And I stand by that I love G1 better, not because I was a child back then, but for the fact that it was truly superior in terms of story and world building. At least compared to now. I suppose we don't need to challenge the kids of today with "made up terminology" because I mean that would totally make them not interested, am I right? I'd rather see Skull Spiders and Shadow traps than Rahi or even Piraka. Now before you tell me "there is rahi" I KNOW. I GET IT. The creatures are cool and they are "rahi".

[Virid]

From what I've heard (and since this is only stuff I've heard don't take what I see to be 100% accurate), the recent graphic novels have done quite a lot in the way of world building, giving named characters and animals, along with naming the regions and detailing the history of events prior to the Toa's arrival in more detail. I'm not saying it's perfect, but given enough time I feel the G2 storyline could become very interesting. Of course, if it does come to an end next year then the story will unfortunately never come close to the G1 storyline.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Virid

[Bonkle]

A bit late on the whole Ekimu trope thing-

 

That happened ONCE. Meanwhile, most of the early Gen1 conflicts were resolved with all six Toa holding up their weapons and making one big element a blast. THAT'S a trope.