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I'd just like to point out that Night Stalker is much more than five blocks away, more like the other side of the city.  He doesn't want to go near the police station.

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I'd just like to point out that Night Stalker is much more than five blocks away, more like the other side of the city.  He doesn't want to go near the police station.

 

You've messaged me about this already, but I'll put it here too: sadly, none of Night Stalker's posts contain this information, so there was no way for anyone to know this. It's not really something that is readily assumed. The first post we had placing Night Stalker at a location is Stormer noting the attack is close enough for the Heroes to hear, and so that is the measurement we're working with. Next time, make sure to specify if you want your character to be somewhere specific, even if it's something like "he's as far away from this as possible".

 

As it stands, there was no possible way for anyone to know he was on the outskirts of the city (I think the police station is in the middle of the city? I don't know, it's hard to judge from what little you see of it in canon). And, since it would require Nato to edit Stormer's IC completely- possibly several of them, depending on how Drax found out his city was being attacked- and for me to edit my post so it refers to Nato's post properly and possibly change a whole heap of it, I think it would be much easier to leave it as is. Sorry, it's just that we really couldn't have known this information as it was not in any of Night Stalker's posts:

 

 

IC: Night Stalker

 

"We're trying to draw attention, so I should.  You are more infamous, but pretty much the entire city hates me.  You stay out of sight.  It'll give us an edge when the cops and heroes come."  With that, Night Stalker strode into the open and fired several gas bombs at the base of the tower.  He began firing warning shots at the nearby civilians who started running away screaming.  After about a minute of this Night Stalker charged towards the tower, barreling through the dispersing gas cloud and swinging his hammer into the tower.  It rung like a bell as it began to fall, and it hit the ground with a discordant crash.  Night Stalker then began shooting down all of the security cameras he could find.

 

 

IC: Night Stalker

 

Their target would soon become apparent to Corroder, as it was hard to miss.  It was a gleaming tower, polished to a perfect shine, that created intricate patterns on the ground with the reflected sunlight.  Night Stalker couldn't remember exactly what it stood for, but he knew it was something the city was proud of.  Best of all, it was completely unguarded.  It was also very open, meaning they would be seen very quickly.

 

 

IC: Night Stalker

 

Night Stalker though for  few seconds, deciding which famous building would be best, then headed off in a direction opposite from Black Phantom, activating his camo as he did so.  "If anyone sees me especially we're done for, so stay close or you'll lose me."

 

OOC: I don't think we have any canon buildings in Mekron aside from the police station, so should I make one up?

 
 

IC: Night Stalker

 

"We're trying to draw attention, so I should.  You are more infamous, but pretty much the entire city hates me.  You stay out of sight.  It'll give us an edge when the cops and heroes come."  With that, Night Stalker strode into the open and fired several gas bombs at the base of the tower.  He began firing warning shots at the nearby civilians who started running away screaming.  After about a minute of this Night Stalker charged towards the tower, barreling through the dispersing gas cloud and swinging his hammer into the tower.  It rung like a bell as it began to fall, and it hit the ground with a discordant crash.  Night Stalker then began shooting down all of the security cameras he could find.

 

 

IC: Morphos

 

Morphos left, deciding to look for the Starwhale's dock and find some information there since Blink was hopefully handling her end in the less friendly part of town.

 

 

IC: Night Stalker

 

Their target would soon become apparent to Corroder, as it was hard to miss.  It was a gleaming tower, polished to a perfect shine, that created intricate patterns on the ground with the reflected sunlight.  Night Stalker couldn't remember exactly what it stood for, but he knew it was something the city was proud of.  Best of all, it was completely unguarded.  It was also very open, meaning they would be seen very quickly.

 

 

IC: Night Stalker

 

Night Stalker though for  few seconds, deciding which famous building would be best, then headed off in a direction opposite from Black Phantom, activating his camo as he did so.  "If anyone sees me especially we're done for, so stay close or you'll lose me."

 

OOC: I don't think we have any canon buildings in Mekron aside from the police station, so should I make one up?

 
These are the posts I could find relating to his current location. None of them specify he headed or currently is away from the police station.
Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


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I understand.  If you look back to Night Stalker's discussion of where they should go he says he wants to be far from the heroes and cops, but that doesn't say they actually went far away.

Edited by Vestak

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Cor, Dallior and Sil have all been absent for a good long while, so I'm gonna just skip the conversations I'm waiting on until they return. Specifically, Sparrowhawk and Beemer are currently detained in Hero Factory, and Wolfe is just wherever he wants to be. So, if Dallior and/or Sil come back, their respective Heroes will be (very briefly) stuck- but I'm very happy to quickly have it resolved with someone issuing a warning and letting them out. Since Wolfe has, to my knowledge, not really done anything worthy of disciplinary action, he's free to wander back in when Cor comes back.


Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


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Nimius's Dropship Approved 3/3

Kinda wondering why it even needed a profile. It's pretty much just a regular dropship.  :P


"It doesn't matter how big your first bite is. It matters how many bites you take." -Mool the Wanderer

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This is something Nato should probably answer since it's his mission, but until he gets back: I think he mentioned that the dock was not used exclusively for the Starwhale. Since no one started investigating until it was well on its way, it's likely that it's busy and all.

 

Also, I'm not sure how Sapphire is flipping cars. Tripping people is another matter but you can do that standing still relatively easily. The car thing is getting me. I guess it could be the flow of air as she runs by? But if she was going that fast, she would likely be running into every obstacle on her path. Hmmm.

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


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It could be that she took extra amount of effort to flip over this one car because she thought it'd look cool when someone saw that flipped car and saw her running away, thinking that she flipped it over with sheer speed.


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But she doesn't have increased strength, which would be required to flip the car. Which is where the conundrum comes in.


Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


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Probably used a really long lever. Give me a long enough lever and a place to stand and I can move the world.

 

Or better yet, she used a forklift to flip the car over.

Edited by Oko the Matoran

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If she is using a lever to flip cars fast enough to make it seem like her sheer speed flipped them, meaning all they see is a blur run by and cars the blast of air flips the cars, then she would have to be going fast enough to move faster than advanced robotic eyes could see and come back and flip the cars after she's already run through, if she's trying to be realistic.  At that speed she could flip cars with the force of running by, but that speed is also incredibly OP except for the part where she would die the moment there was an obstacle in her path.

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Nah, she does it all in normal time. It's only people who'd arrive afterwards who might think her speed flipped the cars.


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I appreciate the joke but would like to point out that from Kat's perspective, she would have had plenty of time to intervene well before that.


Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


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I'm making a joke out of this because this honestly was never supposed to be the focus of my posts. A car getting flipped isn't supposed to have any impact either way on her story. I could edit it out and it wouldn't impact anything, the only point it was supposed to make is that she's causing trouble across the city and needs to be stopped.


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But she doesn't have increased strength, which would be required to flip the car. Which is where the conundrum comes in.

 

Surge doesn't either, aside from the slight increase his upgrades provided him with. Didn't stop him from single-handedly pushing one back over onto its wheels at the end of Brain Attack, though, and all during the span of a single second to boot.

Granted, the actual vehicle in question seemed like it only had enough room for the driver in comparison to the actual characters, and the feat could have simply been due to its smaller design or lighter overall components for all we know, but the fact is that it was still possible to perform using only a standard Hero-level strength threshold, so Sapphire herself effectively doing the same before Kat could muster up a proper reaction remains well within the realm of possibility.

In other words, seeing as to how he didn't explicitly do anything outside of the rules while flipping said car, or even go so far as to list its exact specifications, both canon and fair-play dictate that Onaku's still technically in the right on this one. With that being said, I take my leave once again.


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Actually, Surge does have increased strength! Most Heroes do, compared to the average civilian. I think it was even implied in some places that Surge is relatively strong, but don't quote me on that specific point because I'm not sure. And, in the Brain Attack episode, he flips the car for a civilian, implying the civilian could not have done it on their own. Sapphire is not a Hero and has average attributes outside of her speed, meaning she would have average- that is, civilian level- strength.

 

I think you're mixing up "average level" with "Hero level" here, which is an easy mistake to make. So, my original point still stands. I get you've left, though, so this is more to point out to everyone that Heroes are not typically at civilian levels of strength, endurance, speed, etc. I also don't think it's that much of a big deal, I was just remarking on it because it was odd that she was doing that. Onaku says she was using forklifts to flip them, and I said Kat would have had plenty of time to interfere, but the fact that it implies she didn't is pretty funny in and of itself.

 

I'm making a joke out of this because this honestly was never supposed to be the focus of my posts. A car getting flipped isn't supposed to have any impact either way on her story. I could edit it out and it wouldn't impact anything, the only point it was supposed to make is that she's causing trouble across the city and needs to be stopped.

 
That's absolutely fine and I wholeheartedly support this notion. Mainly I just wanted to clarify so her sudden increased strength wouldn't be an issue later on. Also I assumed the "damaging property" was her spraypainting things at high speed like a hooligan. 
Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


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Also I assumed the "damaging property" was her spraypainting things at high speed like a hooligan. 

 

That is completely in character for her and the only reason she isn't doing that right now is because she lacks the spray paint cans. 

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The only source I can find detailing the exact nature of Surge's strength is his page on the Heropedia wiki, which simply states that he is "strong," and not of the vastly superior variety either; he couldn't even help Bulk unpin himself from a pile of construction girders as a 1.0. And yes, the robot he was assisting couldn't do the deed himself, so there is a difference between Civilian-level and Hero-level; that much I agree.

However, Surge only flipped over the car, and wasn't attempting to lift the entire thing up off of the ground, which means that he wasn't even technically supporting all of its weight. Factoring in the general difference between base-level robots and humanoid organics, that of Heroes and Civilians, and the size of the vehicle in question (assuming it did, of course, belong to the compact variety), he'd only have to lift about 600 lbs. more than that of your average adult male cow in order to pick it up entirely, for a combined total of about roughly 3,000 lbs. or 1.5 tons. If the average adult human body is only 135 lbs., and you multiply that by 8 in order to account for the metal (in this case, steel), he's still only moving an object three times his own weight, thus his relative strength there would actually be comparable to that of a body-builder. Divide that by about half, and that's where he actually stands in comparison.

Granted, this ratio does tend to increase if you substitute steel for titanium, as the modifier there is only 4.5, but he'd also be potentially opening himself up to more physical damage via attacks and simply using the ability in question at that point if that's what his frame was generally made up of, since titanium's physically weaker than steel by default. It's really only better for Heroes who possess temperature resistances, want to be less effected by magnetism, or the occasional organic who'd like to... well, not be constantly poisoned by their shiny new limb.

While a Civilian probably would view that as super-strength, that's still pretty average for a Hero in all actuality, seeing as to how Heroes are naturally built to be physically better than them and all. And no, I'm not mixing them up; if there's three different classes of characters, then they should be treated as such and have their own various stat plateaus to divide them. Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that an attribute should remain relative to the being that possesses it; to an ant, we're huge, but to us, they're small. By extension, Civilians think of Heroes and Villains as stronger while the Heroes see them as beings who need protecting and the Villains generally feel that they're easier to crush. Grading them all by a single standard doesn't do anyone justice. In fact, all it does is muddy things up and make them even more confusing than they originally were to begin with.

Unfortunately, by this logic, the standard threshold for Villain stats would also need to be increased above Civilian-level as well, otherwise the Heroes would pretty much be able to instantaneously kill or knock them all out with one punch, and people would be less likely to run away from someone in terror if they could theoretically beat them in an arm-wrestling match. Case in point, Rotor's ability to toss Furno 1.0 around by his leg like a ragdoll using only one hand. Fun fact; most of a being's capability to lift actually stems from their legs, contrary to popular belief, and not their arms. Taking that into consideration, he wouldn't have had access to his peak potential, seeing as to how he was actually lying on his back at the time he was doing so. This only supports the notion even further, as a move like that just isn't possible in real life, no matter how ripped you are, unless your opponent possesses the height and weight of a small child, primarily because you lack the proper leverage and positioning. Simply put, he would've likely required some type of additional buff in order to pull that off, seeing as to how his page makes no mention of how stong he is at all, which leads me to believe it doesn't deviate that much from standard Villain-level strength.

Honestly, I assumed that the forklift thing was part of the joke as well. Either way, if general Hero attributes are greater than those of civilians, and the same thing can be said for the Villains, which it technically can, then that effectively puts them more or less on the same page as the Heroes they fight. If not, that would defeat the entire purpose of the game itself, as there's really no reason for either of them to even exist in the first place, seeing as to how the Villain problem could've just as easily been solved ages ago by an angry mob of civilians wielding the equivalent of pitchforks and torches.


Epics: 

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RPG History:

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GM Résumé:

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Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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There's a lot in your post that seems to be from some confusion caused by my wording. My point remains unchanged: Heroes are stronger than civilians (by which I do not mean civilian profiles, I mean run of the mill, non-powered beings shown in the show in Makuhero City), these civilians cannot flip cars like Heroes can, as a Hero was required to help. This is the canon as suggested by the show, this is the canon we are going by in the HF RPG. Civilians (as in, average, run of the mill citizens of Makuhero City seen in the show) are the average, not Heroes.

 

I honestly, truly have no idea why you are still arguing that she can flip the car, but in case you didn't realise, we've already sorted it. Onaku himself has said he hadn't really thought too hard about it and was just joking around. The issue is solved; it's remaining as is as a joke, as we have no idea how she managed it. It has no bearing on the story or other characters, and so can remain as it is. But, for future reference, civilians or similar are the average, and not Heroes. I'm not going to address the measured strength of Heroes you've mentioned because it assumes a heck of a lot besides being irrelevant to the point that Heroes are not the average, civilians are.

 

You seemed to be confused as to what I'm referring to, which is on me entirely. Here, by the standard of "civilian", I mean the random civilian robots we see around Makuhero City in the episodes. I do not mean every single character under the "Civilian" definition in the profiles; as you said, all civilians are different. Of course they're not all weak compared to Heroes or Villains. This is referring to the average, run of the mill background character in Makuhero City. Sorry to confuse you on that point! That seems to address a good deal of your points up there since you thought I was generalising profiles rather than just trying to refer to run of the mill, unenhanced, unpowered beings from Makuhero City.

 

Sorry if I came off as blunt, I'm trying to make this as short as possible. Anyway, with that, I believe the matter is sorted in its entirety. By 'civilians', I meant 'unpowered run of the mill people from the episodes', not as in the profile type. I apologise for the confusion, and it was seriously on me. I didn't even think about the wording, so that is seriously my fault. Sorry! In any case, it remains that Heroes are not the average, these specific Makuhero City civilians are, and Heroes are much stronger than these Makuhero City civilians. Sapphire cannot flip cars by herself. This does not need to be edited, but it is for future reference.

 

EDIT: Also, Onaku, I was describing this to a younger sibling who came up with an elegant solution: obviously, with Sapphire's high speed and lack of raised reflexes to go along with it, she is flipping cars by accidentally running into them.

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl
  • Upvote 2

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


Terrible Comics, a collection of comics that are terrible.

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Also, Onaku, I was describing this to a younger sibling who came up with an elegant solution: obviously, with Sapphire's high speed and lack of raised reflexes to go along with it, she is flipping cars by accidentally running into them.

 

Of course! It all makes sense now!


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1. There's a lot in your post that seems to be from some confusion caused by my wording. My point remains unchanged: Heroes are stronger than civilians (by which I do not mean civilian profiles, I mean run of the mill, non-powered beings shown in the show in Makuhero City), these civilians cannot flip cars like Heroes can, as a Hero was required to help. This is the canon as suggested by the show, this is the canon we are going by in the HF RPG. Civilians (as in, average, run of the mill citizens of Makuhero City seen in the show) are the average, not Heroes.

 

2. I honestly, truly have no idea why you are still arguing that she can flip the car, but in case you didn't realise, we've already sorted it. Onaku himself has said he hadn't really thought too hard about it and was just joking around. The issue is solved; it's remaining as is as a joke, as we have no idea how she managed it. It has no bearing on the story or other characters, and so can remain as it is. But, for future reference, civilians or similar are the average, and not Heroes. I'm not going to address the measured strength of Heroes you've mentioned because it assumes a heck of a lot besides being irrelevant to the point that Heroes are not the average, civilians are.

 

3. You seemed to be confused as to what I'm referring to, which is on me entirely. Here, by the standard of "civilian", I mean the random civilian robots we see around Makuhero City in the episodes. I do not mean every single character under the "Civilian" definition in the profiles; as you said, all civilians are different. Of course they're not all weak compared to Heroes or Villains. This is referring to the average, run of the mill background character in Makuhero City. Sorry to confuse you on that point! That seems to address a good deal of your points up there since you thought I was generalising profiles rather than just trying to refer to run of the mill, unenhanced, unpowered beings from Makuhero City.

 

4. Sorry if I came off as blunt, I'm trying to make this as short as possible. Anyway, with that, I believe the matter is sorted in its entirety. By 'civilians', I meant 'unpowered run of the mill people from the episodes', not as in the profile type. I apologise for the confusion, and it was seriously on me. I didn't even think about the wording, so that is seriously my fault. Sorry! In any case, it remains that Heroes are not the average, these specific Makuhero City civilians are, and Heroes are much stronger than these Makuhero City civilians. Sapphire cannot flip cars by herself. This does not need to be edited, but it is for future reference.

 

1. Like I said, this is the part I actually agree with. The average Hero would be naturally stronger, tougher, etc., than the average robotic Civilian, as that's just how they are built. Again, aside from the fact that the Heroes were created in order to respond to the activities of the Villains, who would need to be on par with them on at least some level as to not be considered underpowered, this I have no issue with.

2./3. I'm still arguing my point here because you literally just said that Sapphire possesses average, Civilian-level strength, simply because she is not a Hero, and because Civilians are the standard robot model in general. In actuality, however, Civilian-level anything still only applies to Civilians. On the flipside, said Villains would also be swapping out their stat thresholds to those more akin to that of the Hero template, simply by making the leap into villainy, as that's quite literally part of how they keep up with whoever's trying to capture them every other day or so. Therefore, the average strength level of a Civilian would be marginally less than the average strength level of either a Hero or Villain by default, which also applies to super-strength as well, as the latter two have either started off as or have turned themselves into completely different models entirely. Being built or rebuilt in order to account for that gap with relatively minor enhancements is more along the lines of working out or going through basic training; my neighbor isn't The Flash simply because he can run faster than me, and I'm certainly not Superman just because I can lift a bit more than him. This implies that there are actually two entirely separate sets of standards: one for Civilians, and one for Heroes and Villains.

Seeing as to how I just got through explaining how Surge, a Hero who apparently no one can find any actual definitive evidence proving whether or not he does indeed possess super-strength, managed to pull off such a feat, this effectively means that anyone who isn't a standard Civilian model has the potential to theoretically tip over a compact car without necessarily having to obtain that specific quality in question, as the capability to do so remains well within their natural individual strength parameters. And yes, this does rely quite a bit on assumptions, but it also sort of has to, as we haven't yet discovered or produced any similar robotic lifeforms that we can study for the sake of accuracy, so the current tech and knowledge that we do have will have to suffice for now.

4. I'm not saying that standard-level Hero thresholds are the average for all robots in the HF universe, just that they're the average for Heroes. Likewise, the same would also apply to Civilians and Villains, respectively. Stating that a Hero or Villain possesses a so-called "superior" ability, just because it is only slightly better than what their Civilian counterparts have access to due to differing model types, is still an inaccurate representation of the term's usage, and only serves to confuse and undersell people when they sit down and take the time to try to figure out what their characters are actually capable of.


Epics: 

Hero Factory: Contagion

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RPG History:

The Asylum, Bionifight Infinite, Year 60,000, Matoran und Panzer, HF RPG 2.0, Wasteland, Corpus Rahkshi, Skyrise

GM Résumé:

Matoran und Panzer (Formerly Appointed Co-GM), Corpus Rahkshi (Former Substitute Co-GM)

 

 

Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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Tim I don't mean to sound rude but.

 

Why are you even here?

 

You don't even play this game you goof.

  • Upvote 2

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Gotta agree with Scorp on this one.

 

It's kinda weird to see someone who's left the game randomly pop back into the topic and start posting lengthy walls of text to perpetuate a discussion that A - had nothing to do with them, and B- was already pretty much resolved.

 

As Scorp said, we're not trying to be rude here.

 

I'm just... very confused.

Edited by Roman Torchwick
  • Upvote 1

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Just because I stopped playing doesn't mean I stopped spectating. I've just been extremely subtle about it up until now.

Trust me, I'd like to return to the sidelines myself, but if I see something that I take issue with, I still feel the need to point it out, even if it's only to help prevent similar problems from leaking into the RPGs that I do still actually attempt to play... even if they don't happen to acknowledge all the time I invest in them. And from my perspective, it doesn't really matter if the entire situation originally did start off with Onaku joking around or not; it still somehow managed to shed some light on what either appears to be a faulty game mechanic or, as Zippy has previously suggested, some very confusing wording choices at the very least.

Last time I checked, it was still part of the GM's job description to take the time to review and resolve these things when they eventually pop up. Not trying to imply anything negative, of course, but I figured I'd probably get a little bit farther by bringing it up here instead of traveling two towns over and pulling aside an employee from my local Wal-Mart.

Edited by Timageness

Epics: 

Hero Factory: Contagion

RPG Characters:

BZPRPG Characters

RPG History:

The Asylum, Bionifight Infinite, Year 60,000, Matoran und Panzer, HF RPG 2.0, Wasteland, Corpus Rahkshi, Skyrise

GM Résumé:

Matoran und Panzer (Formerly Appointed Co-GM), Corpus Rahkshi (Former Substitute Co-GM)

 

 

Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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Okay it looks like you have some fundamental misunderstandings on the profile types, so I'll explain those.

 

Profile types do not have a set level of "stats". The closest you'd get to that is Heroes, but that's because they're all made in the same place by the same company and all. Even then, they can differ- we have Heroes designed for strength, like Bulk and Thumper, who would be much stronger than the average, standard model of Hero. We have Heroes that are lighter armoured and physically weaker, but have other skills. You are not limited to a certain set of skills as a Hero, so long as you can pitch those skills as having a use in the Hero field.

 

Villains and Civilians are even less held to a standard, because they don't have the "standard" that Heroes have. By definition, Villain profiles are profiles for characters that break the law and such. Civilians don't break the law and are also not Hero model robots. Nowhere in these descriptions does it say, "this is a limit on what skills these characters can possess". I have no idea where you got that idea from, but it is absolutely not a thing. You can make a super buff Civilian profile character. You can make a Villain profile character who is the same model as the average everyday passerby in Makuhero City except they run an illegal gambling racket on the side. Neither of these have a "standard". "Standard", instead, refers to the average everyday Makuhero City resident, the same way you'd compare Superman or Wonderwoman to an average human.

 

Sapphire having "average abilities" would be to this measure of the average, everyday Makuhero City resident because that's the closest we've got to a being with average abilities. Since Villains are, at their core, Civilians who have done a crime and not an entirely different species or make to ordinary Civilians, it makes no sense for them to all be stronger. That just confuses things. 

 

You seem very, very misled over some of these game mechanics. The Civilian/Villain/Hero set are not faulty game mechanics; they're a naming system, neatly dividing characters into three groups. My describing my poor choice of words did not regard the set, it was me explaining that I, personally, in my reply to you, had accidentally used the name of one of the three parts of the set when referring to something else altogether.

 

Still, I'm glad I could explain this misunderstanding to you. This should resolve the issue; if you are confused about anything else, let me know.


Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


Terrible Comics, a collection of comics that are terrible.

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I'm not suggesting that skills and powersets should be limited to specific character types; that's a bad idea no matter how you look at it, unless it's due to some kind of plot reason, and even then, it's still usually frowned upon. What I'm talking about falls more in line with traditional RPG stats, such as strength, intelligence, constitution, and all that jazz. Yes, I do get that this is text-based and not a tabletop. No, I'm not saying that actual numbers, or even the exact stats themselves, need to be implemented. Those are clearly unnecessary complications.

The differences between the profile classifications are not lost on me either, contrary to what people may or may not believe. If we threw all the robots seen in HF into a giant pot, then yeah, Civilians would be the most numerous, definitely. But since the system currently in place keeps them relatively divided, they shouldn't be counted towards anything involving numbers that's soley meant to specifically represent Heroes. So unfortunately, they do have two completely different standards, represented by picking out a handful of individuals from each group, adding up the combined total of their respective stat measurements, and then dividing those numbers by the current amount of participants; hence the term average. Obviously, there isn't going to be an exact blueprint for this sort of thing, seeing as to how those respective amounts are bound to fluctuate with every individual added in afterwards, but the ranges produced by the formula still reflect the general midpoint for the current batch. And again, if the Heroes are created specifically to be better than the Civilians they protect, then the average Civilian aspects are not going to be standard to them from their point of view, as their stats are normally collectively greater in general.

On top of all that, if Villains are still being measured on the Civilian scale, then it truly doesn't matter what physical powers they happen to have in the first place. Assuming there was an already pre-established super-strength modifier (let's say 3x), for example, a Hero (7) would still have a very clear edge over a Villain (4) with the exact same ability (21 as opposed to 12, respectively), simply because they would've originally been created with a higher base-level of strength. Same goes for speed, toughness, endurance, etc. Sure, two different individuals on opposing sides who have the same ability aren't going to bump into each other all the time, but by that logic, it's still pretty clear that the Villains arent exactly playing on the same field as the Heroes. Which is a problem, seeing as to how they still have an advantage no matter what numbers one decides to plug in, especially when they're already capable of feats way beyond that of human beings. Now, Villains who choose to be more subtle with their activities likely wouldn't be affected by this all that much, but seeing as to how a good percentage of the robotic ones from canon have likely upgraded themselves to the point where they're no longer recognisable as Civilians, is it really all that unreasonable to assume that some of these extra modifications can serve to potentially correct this inbalance and even things back out? I mean, the Brains were able to transform the majority of the creatures they were controlling to the point where they were at least on par with Heroes during their attack on the Assembly Tower, which is what some of the others eventually end up doing to themselves anyway, so it's not like there isn't a precedent for this sort of thing.

As far as Sapphire is concerned, realistically, she would've likely had to enhance herself in order to compensate for the additional stress her powers would put her body through regardless, seeing as to how she doesn't seem to be wearing out any of her joints at an accelerated rate, or simply snapping off her limbs every time she tries to use her ability. If I had to hazard a guess, it would probably be somewhere along the lines of a slight increase in strength and toughness, possibly placing her within the parameters of an average-level Hero in relation to those attributes at the very least. Add in my previous example with Surge, and tipping over small cars suddenly becomes very feasible.


Epics: 

Hero Factory: Contagion

RPG Characters:

BZPRPG Characters

RPG History:

The Asylum, Bionifight Infinite, Year 60,000, Matoran und Panzer, HF RPG 2.0, Wasteland, Corpus Rahkshi, Skyrise

GM Résumé:

Matoran und Panzer (Formerly Appointed Co-GM), Corpus Rahkshi (Former Substitute Co-GM)

 

 

Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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I said this last time, but we're not using the average as "average of all the Villain characters" because that would make absolutely no sense. Again, as I said last time, the difference between a Villain and a Civilian in terms of character profiles ultimately boils down to Villains are Civilians that have done something against the law, in the very simplest definition of the two. Saying "average Villain strength is all Villain strength added together divided by number of Villains" is a flawed system for several reasons:

 

- The average would change every time a new Villain was added, so in cases like Sapphire's, she could get stronger or weaker between posts.

- If you had two robots of the same build- let's say, two robots of the model that are seen in the show to man the Hero Hotline- and one was secretly blackmailing celebrities, making them a Villain, then, by this definition, despite being the exact same build and having no strength modifiers or anything of the sort, the Villain robot would be substantially stronger than the Civilian robot if noted to have "average" or even "slightly below average" strength.

- Also, in the aforementioned example, if the robot is mentioned to have "slightly below average" strength, that drags down the average for everyone.

 

Yes, one definition of average is as you've described- but, as previously stated, that is not the definition we are using. We use it as "ordinary". As in, something to compare it to. We are defining "average" as in the models of robot that you see around Makuhero City- those random people. We are not defining it by "average of all Villains", because that wouldn't work.

 

Despite you saying you understand the concept, I think you have some incorrect preconceptions about how the game works. That's fine; I'm perfectly happy explaining anything people don't understand, because that's one of the things that I do as a GM. However, I can't help but feel like this argument has gone way too far for something that was resolved when you started it.

 

As GM, I'm gonna pull rank and say, I've explained the concept. If you still don't understand it, I will answer questions, because I don't want to leave you still confused. But, you are insisting we are using a mechanic that I have repeatedly said we are not using. We are not judging averages as in, "average of Villains". You can have an average based on model- like in the case of Heroes, or compared to species/models seen in the show- but not by character type. Characters can be all sorts of species and makes, so we are not defining averages by a collection of different species and types and all sorts. Sapphire, thus, would not have the strength to flip a car.

 

This argument was resolved ages ago. I am still not sure why you are still trying to argue a point countered and dealt with already. I'm sorry, but I am going to politely ask you to read through what I have said, think about whether you have any new points that will add to the conversation, and if not, let it be. We are not using your way of doing things, and to argue that we are or we should is pointless.

 

I'd also like to say that this should not, by any means, be taken to mean people should not bring up concerns. If you have a concern or suggestion, we are very, very happy to hear them, and the GMs know we are by no means infallible! But, this particular argument has been answered already, and continuing this argument does no one any good. The issue has been sorted, I will answer questions, but I don't think another post explaining to me what the mathematical definition of an average is is needed here. I know what a mathematical average is, believe me. It is not the definition we are using here, as has been already stated.

  • Upvote 2

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


Terrible Comics, a collection of comics that are terrible.

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I've been trying to stay out of this, for the most part, but I still can't understand why this is suddenly an issue. 

 

Heroes are stronger than civilians. Villains are almost exclusively former civilians. Therefore, most Villains (unless otherwise stated) are going to be physically weaker than Heroes.

 

These are all simple, straightforward facts that have been standard even when fishers was running the game. 


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I've been trying to stay out of this, for the most part, but I still can't understand why this is suddenly an issue. 

 

Heroes are stronger than civilians. Villains are almost exclusively former civilians. Therefore, most Villains (unless otherwise stated) are going to be physically weaker than Heroes.

 

These are all simple, straightforward facts that have been standard even when fishers was running the game. 

 

To be clear, this isn't really what I was trying to say. Villains and Civilians can come from many races, builds, makes, and walks of life. Making a generalised statement like "Villains are stronger than Heroes" or "Heroes are stronger than Villains" doesn't work.

 

Villains were once Civilians, as there was a time in their life when they were not doing crime. Now they are, and they are Villains. You can have a weedy office clerk or a big buff robot like Rotor as a Villain.

 

The average strength would be better suited to being measured as compared to either the average Makuhero City robot, or to the average for the being's model, make, or species. As I said, generalised comments are not really suited here.

 

Now, I'll say it again: this is over. If anyone has questions or any points that have not already been addressed, I will happily answer them, but otherwise I think this is over and done with pretty decently by this point. 

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


Terrible Comics, a collection of comics that are terrible.

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Hence the part of my post where it says "unless otherwise stated". 

 

If we look at approved villains such as Kaiba, Night Stalker, or Crowley, they're all either bigger than, or explicitly stated to be stronger than, Heroes. Whereas a villain like Vyle or Sapphire, who are not described in such a way, can safely be attributed to having civilian-level (as in, the average robot seen throughout the TV series) characteristics, because that is - and always has been, even when fishers was running the game - what was considered the average. 

 

I apologise if my earlier post wasn't clear enough - I am agreeing with you. 

Edited by Roman Torchwick

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Skyrise  Ascent

___________________________________________________

Legends Don't Last Forever

 

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So basically, what you're saying is this:

 

- Despite my concession that unenhanced robotic Villains would generally remain unaffected, as they are still essentially Civilians, just with poor morals, the Heroes as a whole are always going to possess the potential to dwarf the majority of them in pretty much everything, for really no other reason except "they're the good guys."

- The only way to currently bridge that gap is to either make one of a different species entirely, or have a Villain be a former Hero in accordance to their backstory... unless some completely random and unrealistic decrease is applied to negate this afterwards, in which case, the second option is no longer viable.

- Aside from the fact that the most common concept of the term "ordinary" is, in actuality, the middle ground between two extremes, thus effectively making it an average itself, the game as a whole pretty much relies on picking and choosing certain definitions of words in order to justify its own misguided theme of optimism.

- And when push comes to shove, reality ultimately gives way to fantasy and fiction, so all the rules should hereby be based on the latter.

 

This, along with the overall lack of consideration towards ideas that could potentially improve the way things work, just serves to remind me why I left in the first place. Since my concerns are apparently no longer valid, I'll just take my leave and head on back over to the Bionicle RPG Forum, where things still actually make a lick of sense.


Epics: 

Hero Factory: Contagion

RPG Characters:

BZPRPG Characters

RPG History:

The Asylum, Bionifight Infinite, Year 60,000, Matoran und Panzer, HF RPG 2.0, Wasteland, Corpus Rahkshi, Skyrise

GM Résumé:

Matoran und Panzer (Formerly Appointed Co-GM), Corpus Rahkshi (Former Substitute Co-GM)

 

 

Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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So basically, what you're saying is this:

 

- Despite my concession that unenhanced robotic Villains would generally remain unaffected, as they are still essentially Civilians, just with poor morals, the Heroes as a whole are always going to possess the potential to dwarf the majority of them in pretty much everything, for really no other reason except "they're the good guys."

That is not what Zippy meant. What she meant is that the specific model of civilian native to Makuhero City, as well as many other cities seen in canon, would be weaker than the specifically enhanced Hero models created to combat more enhanced individuals. Unless otherwise modified, characters of the "standard" civilian model, aka the one I described, would not be as strong as a Hero.

 

- The only way to currently bridge that gap is to either make one of a different species entirely, or have a Villain be a former Hero in accordance to their backstory... unless some completely random and unrealistic decrease is applied to negate this afterwards, in which case, the second option is no longer viable.

Or, you know, make a robot isn't the standard civilian build or is in some way altered from that build?

 

- Aside from the fact that the most common concept of the term "ordinary" is, in actuality, the middle ground between two extremes, thus effectively making it an average itself, the game as a whole pretty much relies on picking and choosing certain definitions of words in order to justify its own misguided theme of optimism.

I... what are you saying here? Ordinary is not a middle ground, it's what's considered normal. Regular. Business as usual. Mundane.

 

- And when push comes to shove, reality ultimately gives way to fantasy and fiction, so all the rules should hereby be based on the latter.

Honestly, I don't see where you're coming from here. A "standard" civilian model wouldn't be built for combat from the get-go like a Hero model, so it makes sense that those models would be weaker. Now, unless otherwise stated, it can be assumed that a civilian or a villain model is of that build, and as such their lesser strength can be attributed to those characters, again, unless otherwise stated. Now, I did not state to the contrary that Sapphire differed from the "standard" civilian model in any way other than her speed, and yeah, her moc isn't exactly like a standard civilian in shape, but non-the-less, her "stats", so to say, could understandably be assumed to be those of a "standard" civilian in the areas that are unspecified in her model.

 

 

This, along with the overall lack of consideration towards ideas that could potentially improve the way things work, just serves to remind me why I left in the first place. Since my concerns are apparently no longer valid, I'll just take my leave and head on back over to the Bionicle RPG Forum, where things still actually make a lick of sense.

There is not a lack of consideration towards ideas. But what you've been serving us here has been less along the lines of "ideas that could improve the way things work" and more hammering on something that has already been clarified multiple times. Also, wasn't the reason you left in the first place because you couldn't get any of your character concepts approved?


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Not going to respond to the others here, since they're "no longer up for discussion" and all, but this one I will clarify:

 

Also, wasn't the reason you left in the first place because you couldn't get any of your character concepts approved?

 

That was why I left 2.0. However, I never ended up submitting/resubmitting any characters for 2.5, due to a multitude of different issues beforehand, as evidenced by the very first post and page of this topic.

And seeing as to how I still can't post in here without getting some form of flak for my efforts or simply being outright ignored, there really isn't much of a reason to start doing so now.


Epics: 

Hero Factory: Contagion

RPG Characters:

BZPRPG Characters

RPG History:

The Asylum, Bionifight Infinite, Year 60,000, Matoran und Panzer, HF RPG 2.0, Wasteland, Corpus Rahkshi, Skyrise

GM Résumé:

Matoran und Panzer (Formerly Appointed Co-GM), Corpus Rahkshi (Former Substitute Co-GM)

 

 

Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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@Nato - I think my issues with your posts were mostly wording issues that I misunderstood. Fair enough.

 

@Timeageness:

 

Mate. I've said that everyone's opinions have worth. I have tried to ensure that this was clear in my post. The reason I was asking everyone to stop is because your points were not offering anything constructive anymore; they had been noted, commented on, and explained why they would not work several times. You kept pushing on it. As you can probably understand, this started to get very repetitive.

 

Now, you're getting borderline rude here. You have had these things explained to you, but you keep seemingly half-reading posts and jumping to negative conclusions based on the half you gleaned. You keep saying your way could improve the system, despite the times it has been repeatedly explained to you that it most definitely would not and in fact would be detrimental. It is not nonsensical for this to happen. It does make sense for us not to take on every single idea people suggest, especially if it does not fit in with the game's mechanics or would not work. We have read and acknowledged it, and explained to you why we are not taking it on. This isn't unreasonable.

 

I honestly have no idea how to better explain the concept to you. You seemed upset that I was cherry picking definitions for a word when you jumped to the definition that would make the least amount of sense in the context? We're not using the mathematical average. We were never using the mathematical average. I have already given a good amount of reasons and examples as to why it wouldn't work, which you seem to have skipped over reading. It's not "serving its own misguided theme of optimism" to not use a flawed system.

 

I asked you to read through what has been said and consider whether your points are relevant. You don't seem to have done that. Hence, while all opinions are valid, you are not helping the discussion and at this point it's going nowhere and I'd rather it ended here. Again. Your opinions are valid. But you are ignoring the points made by other people and seemingly skimming and cherrypicking words and phrases. If this is incorrect, I apologise, but this is just the impression I get because every one of your points seem to either be irrelevant, already addressed, or based on half a sentence without considering the other half or context.

 

We are not implementing a system of mathematical averages for character profiles based on profile type. It's not a good idea. I have explained why earlier. This is the end of the discussion.

  • Upvote 1

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


Terrible Comics, a collection of comics that are terrible.

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As far as I'm concerned, it's been over on my end since Post #592, and I'm over it. I've already tried to leave twice since this conversation originally started; the only reason I'm still here is because people keep responding to what I've typed up, which only results in me wanting to defend my position even further.

And for the record, not only do I make an effort to read through the entirety of every single post I choose to respond to, but I also go back and reread them over again as I type. Also, I'm normally pretty chill about this sort of thing and I usually refrain from correcting people about it for the most part, but the whole "everyone and their opinions matter" speech tends to be a lot more effective when you haven't been misspelling the screen name of the person you're giving it to since January at the very least. Just saying.

Now I don't know about the rest of you, but frankly, I'm done. It's already become pretty clear that this argument has generally become unwinnable, and I'd rather not waste any more of my time trying to fix something that apparently nobody else recognises as being broken. I'm just simply not going to post anymore, and leave it at that.


Epics: 

Hero Factory: Contagion

RPG Characters:

BZPRPG Characters

RPG History:

The Asylum, Bionifight Infinite, Year 60,000, Matoran und Panzer, HF RPG 2.0, Wasteland, Corpus Rahkshi, Skyrise

GM Résumé:

Matoran und Panzer (Formerly Appointed Co-GM), Corpus Rahkshi (Former Substitute Co-GM)

 

 

Feel free to shoot a PM my way if you're waiting for me to respond to something and I've been taking a while to do so.

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I'm so sorry for misspelling your name, Timageness! I somehow never noticed, no one ever corrected me, and I have no idea how that flew under my radar- it's right there, after all. However, me accidentally misspelling your name does not discredit any of my points. All opinions do matter, whether I accidentally misspell a name or not.

 

As for replying to posts, I kept replying because I wanted to make sure no one was confused on the subject. Since I am one of the GMs, it is my responsibility to make sure everything is clear to the players. Your posts contained a lot of misinformation and leaving it there with no comment could confuse others.

 

I am sorry you still believe the system is broken. However, if you wish to come back and play the RPG sometime, you are more than welcome.

 

~

 

Anyway, with that over and done with, I'd like to let everyone know that from Boxing Day, for several weeks, I may have limited internet (and phone internet access at that) and I will have very limited contact with the other GMs. I'll still try and post, but please be patient if it takes a couple of days!

 

Happy holidays, everyone!

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


Strakk's Best Friend, the story of a confusing yet somehow canon friendship.


Terrible Comics, a collection of comics that are terrible.

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I think it goes without saying that most (if not all) of us will be less active than usual (or not at all) over the next few days. I'll do my best to post when I need to, but I expect everyone will be focused more on the holidays than the game.


"It doesn't matter how big your first bite is. It matters how many bites you take." -Mool the Wanderer

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So I'm posting now to officially call it quits; if anybody is waiting on my character (and I know there are some and I apologize), I give you permission to bunny him enough for your characters to move on from the interaction.

 

I'd prefer Focus to be left alive and alone at the bar or wherever it was just in case I ever decide to try playing again.

 

Anyway, that's all.

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