Destiny and Free Will

[Alyska]

So, in G1, if Destiny was really just a universe-wide algorithm controlling the behaviour of every being in the MU, there's a number of disturbing implications...

1. First up, nobody has free will. Many species became self aware and sapient, but their personalities and emotions are just a manifestation of the source code. All choices they make are predetermined, and nobody can successfully make the choice to refuse their destiny.

 

2. Even when groups of characters appeared to be in opposition/conflict with one another, their actions are ultimately working towards the same goal. The destiny algorithm behaves in such a way to make many beings into complete psychopaths who work towards the universe's unified goal by brutally slaughtering others. One would think there'd be more efficient ways to program a bunch of demi-robots to repair a big robot to repair a planet, but, nope, bloodbath it is.

 

3. The destiny algorithm would have to account for outside factors, such as if a being from outside the GSR got in and interfered with things. Thus, the behaviour of all the beings in the area would have to change in order to deal with the intruder and then carry on with the algorithm. We know that MU beings' programming can be altered remotely, such as when Mata Nui gave them the ability to speak Agori. So presumably something similar could happen if the algorithm needed to respond to external factors. They're basically a hivemind.

 

So, what are the implications of our favourite characters not having free will? Does it diminish the value of heroic acts like Matoro's sacrifice, or acts of cruelty by the villains?  Does the algorithm still operate on Sphereus Magna? Or have they now truly transcended their programming?

 

Thoughts?

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Wait, there's a confirmed destiny algorithm? I always chalked "Destiny" to ultimately mean "do the best you can to serve Mata Nui".

[Banana Gunz]

This is the same as in real life. Think about it, you got your personality from your parents which would determine how you interact with those around you. As you interact, they interact back and affect you. Based on that you start building up an identity through the years, but you never got to control your surroundings or the contexts that affected you. You never really had a choice to be who you were, no matter the illusion of choice. Add onto that the possibility that the future is always already written. So this is less of a simple Bionicle issue and more of a general problem.

 

The solution? Well at some point the illusion of free choice is so potent and so blatantly unreal that it becomes real. The future may already be written, but you have no way of knowing what that future is so you have to live under what you do know. Because of this, you still choose, even if it's technically an illusion, but you have no way of knowing so your only guide is yourself. And the past is so saturated and filled with so many outside things affecting you that it's impossible to track down exactly what changed you and helped make you who you are, so for the sake of living the lives we do it's important to not simply excuse others for who they are and use the better knowledges that we have gained out of coincidence and share them with others to create a better world and better selves.

 

Bionicle and many other fantasy stories use prophecy to challenge the idea of free will, and the most effective of those are the ones explore the concepts of free will under prophesy and how that makes people react. Prophecy and knowledge of the future is dangerous, because it creates a paradox as crazy as time travel itself would make. It brings up the question if you were meant to know that information and be able to try to change it or if you were destined to know your destiny and still follow it no matter how hard you try to escape.

 

Stories like the Star Wars prequels explore prophecital heroes that have so many people believing in what they are suppose to be that they end up becoming the complete opposite, for prophesy is always either vague or easily misinterpreted.

 

And in terms of choice, choice is something you simply have to hope/believe in, like reality. The same way you can endlessly ask "why" without ever reaching an answer and continually question every sign to reality with the Matrix argument or our limited and flawed senses, choice can only ever be real if you believe it is or until the day our minds have grown, evolved, and expanded to comprehend the paradoxical concepts of the universe.

 

I don't know about any destiny algorithm, but I think a large part of Bionicle is that no matter what destiny is strewn out for our heroes, they are not guaranteed success or identity based on prophecy. Destiny is something you create and something that belongs to you. Until the day we can become more, freedom is something we have to create, no matter how paradoxical it is, because otherwise we never really go anywhere. Hope is acknowledging all the possibilities for what could be true, but putting faith in the possibility we desire. All we really ever know is "I think, therefore I am." and everything else must follow.

 

PS, I wouldn't think too closely about destiny in Bionicle in particular. There are a lot of problems with the Bionicle writing that make it so much more difficult to do this i.e. the destiny algorithm which is complicated. The moment you try and turn destiny into a science rather than a philosophy in our current human state is the moment you invite insanity to dinner.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Banana Gunz

[SPIRIT]

It's gets even more complicated when you look at the fact that Energized Protodermis also affected things on Spherus Magna, and Destiny plays into that too.

 

So it is more than programming... but then it isn't, because Mata Nui can also assign Destiny sometimes...

 

Look, Bionicle is much more enjoyable when you don't worry about Destiny or free will!

[The 1st Shadow]

Sounds like you're misunderstanding the concept of "Destiny."

 

Destiny refers to a specific outcome at a certain point in your life.

 

Let's say that outcome is "wake up Mata Nui."

 

Okay, great. Who you become on the way, what hobbies you develop, and who you make friends with doesn't necessarily rely on that eventual outcome. Pohatu didn't have to become close friends with Kopaka--he and Lewa could have become the best bros in the universe and spent their free time pranking Kopaka and Tahu. But, eventually, the team would have had to go to Karda Nui to do the job they were intended to do--awaken Mata Nui.

 

How about "take over the Great Spirit Robot?"

 

Teridax didn't have to become power-hungry in order to attain that. Other than rebelling and attempting to usurp your boss, what other ways are there to get promoted? Work hard and get noticed? Earn the promotion? There had to be two robots to repair Spherus Magna, and it was Mata Nui and Teridax that were meant to pilot them both. Mata Nui could have been more attentive, and Teridax could have been a better person. There are many ways to achieve an end.

 

How many equations equal 4?

 

3+1, 9-5, 2x2, -3+7, etc.

Many different options, but they all have the same eventual result.

 

No free will? You couldn't be more wrong.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Destiny means things you were meant to do but you can miss your chance to fulfill it. The future is a series of eternally branching paths and rivers, and we always take a route. How many choices have you made today?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

yeah "destiny algorithm" was a term coined here on this board i think, it's not canon, canonically i think destiny was and still is just "a thing"

 

quite possibly, a load of baloney, but possibly a thing too, whatever it is, matoran believe in it and expect it to guide them, guide, not control. they still have the will to do what they wish, they can abandon their destiny no problem in fact, though through the magic that is a fictional series, it WILL either catch up with them, or punish them for it. 0:

[Alyska]

Destiny means things you were meant to do but you can miss your chance to fulfill it. The future is a series of eternally branching paths and rivers, and we always take a route. How many choices have you made today?

Greg has outright stated that one's destiny is inevitable in Bionicle (though it's possible he has stated otherwise at a different time). It means different things in other contexts, but this seems to be a "can't fight fate" scenario. Oddly enough, destiny can apparently be altered, though we haven't had a confirmed instance of this happening apart from in alternate timelines.

 

I know that "destiny algorithm" is a fan-coined term, but it fits very well with what we know of destiny from the canon. We know that destiny influences a being's behaviour in order to drive them to fulfill it one way or another. When the Matoran acquired sapience, their personalities developed in a way that was still in accordance with their destiny, and perhaps, in fact, deliberately designed to facilitate it. 

 

If you think about how often the characters fight each other- in order for Destiny to work, there would need to be a way to ensure that all participants who would be needed later on didn't get killed in the fights. So Destiny has to work to ensure that certain attacks miss, that somebody dodges just at the right moment, that the opponent gets distracted right- now, that this person gets a good idea for a counter-attack now. It's not by sheer dumb luck that the Toa seem to survive so many insane situations, and if destiny left so many things to chance, half the Toa wouldn't survive long enough to carry out their purpose. So, even if a being has ostensibly completed "their" destiny, their behaviour must still be in accordance with allowing others to complete their own destinies, so the force of destiny still affects them.

 

I realise it's a bit of an extreme extrapolation, but I think it's an idea worth considering.

[Banana Gunz]

It also depends how you define destiny. I believe Iaredios was looking destiny as more of a prophecy, a saying of a single final outcome, but to me destiny simply means "what you are destined to do", meaning future. So for me every single moment in the future is destiny.

 

And that's not to say one is right or wrong. For story telling the first choice is typically better but for general more life-true purposes I think the second option is a more "real" one. Still, that was a great point to bring up. Definition and perspective are excellent distinctions to be made, though sadly it only seems to make this problem in Bionicle even more difficult to come to a concrete explanation.

 

But for either one even I still think the argument can be made that no one has free will. I don't particularly agree with it, but it's possible. It's all perspective really. One could say that the illusion of free will and inability to see the future isn't enough to garner true free will, which I suppose would garner a responsibility to escape time somehow. On the other hand, even if you have the right to choose in the moment and near future, your larger overarching destiny decides what you do, even if you decide how you do it you still can't escape the outcome i.e. If you were destined to kill your best friend against your wishes you'd still end up doing it however it happens, no matter what you want or try to do to stop it.

 

Perspective is such a dangerous thing sometimes. It seems though like insanity has come through the door and is now eating all the pies, oh and looky Vezon has now teleported in to start drawing on the wall with broken crayons.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Banana Gunz

[MrSciFiGuy]

The way I always viewed Destiny in the Bionicle universe is that it is each individual's ideal function, but their choices throughout their life affects whether or not they can achieve it. The Energized Protodermis being can be viewed as a demi-god type of deity, whose ability is to see all the outcomes and choices, past and future, or a being and then cast judgement. It can glimpse into fate itself.

 

But don't think too hard on it, it's not a necessary detail of the universe.

[Xboxtravis]

For some reason the talk of Destiny vs. Free Will makes me think of this:

 

 

"You can choose a ready guide in 'Mata-Nuis' voice...

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice...

You can choose from 'Phantoka' fears, or kindness that can kill...

I will choose the path that's clear, I will choose 'the Destiny algorithm!'"

Edited June 24, 2016 by Xboxtravis

[Kopekemaster]

Wait, there's a confirmed destiny algorithm? I always chalked "Destiny" to ultimately mean "do the best you can to serve Mata Nui".

Wouldn't that just be "Duty", though?

 

Anyway, my best thought to it would be that it is like a "system-wide" destiny. As in, there are certain things that the system itself are destined to do or accomplish. So, for the example of Matoro sacrificing himself to resurrect Mata Nui: it didn't need to be Matoro specifically who did it. It was destined that someone would, but not necessarily Matoro. So, each character basically has free will within the destined outcome of the system.

[Toa Imrukii]

I think that anyone in BIONICLE can find their "True Destiny" by just doing whatever they do, that is of course if they don't do something that would deny them able to achieve it, unless if that thing they did is either mended or enough time is waited out. However, there is only one true proven way to achieve it, and those are the two former virtues, those ebing Unity and Duty. You must find Unity with whoever depending on a list of factors and variables that brought you and them together, or in BIONICLE you may not have a choice, even still though you can still mend relations and come to use that to be able to face and complete your duty, whatever it be. Only then once those two are done can you actually find your destiny, because through all that you will only then be able to truly find and achieve it.

 

It isn't predestination or programing that makes you find it, it simple is through whatever, or through the three virtues.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Toa Imrukii

[TheSkeletonMan939]

 

Wait, there's a confirmed destiny algorithm? I always chalked "Destiny" to ultimately mean "do the best you can to serve Mata Nui".

Wouldn't that just be "Duty", though?

 

I was kinda thinking 'duty to achieve your destiny'. Kind of cancels each other out though, you're right.

[BioFan95]

To me, the one thing about Bionicle's story that didn't sit right with me was the "You are Destined to do [blank]" bit. As a person who believes that our fates are our own to decide, and nothing is pre-determed. You can see why I wouldn't be a fan of this.

 

Anywho, assuming that everything and anything in the Bio-verse IS destined and pre-determined, this raises some pretty Fridge Horror-like implications. Every being who died would have been destined to do so, Toa Lhikan? Destined to die by Teridax's (shadow) hand, there was nothing Vakama could have done to stop it. How many innocent Matoran were killed by an accident only because they we're destined to do so. Maybe I'm just being too pessimistic about this whole thing, there's no real proof that everything in the Bio-verse is destined.