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I have a challenge for you guys that don't like G2 much.


Spiffy247

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So you don't care about the small details of G2 characters because they only show up for one wave, but the G1 characters who only show up for one wave are worthy because of the small details.

 

Logic.

They're worthy because 80% of everything that was introduced stayed around. Since you seem to not remember I'll remind you: Dark Hunters, Piraka, Rahi, Makuta, Jaller, Kongu, Mata Nui, Bohrok, Bahrag, Axonn, Brutaka, Roodaka, Sidorak, etc. etc. etc.

 

Who stayed around in G2? The six Toa and Ekimu. Makuta didn't make an appearance until the very end, and only two or three of the protectors even were anything in the second wave. Yes, logic, because what I've said is actually logical..

 

I wouldn't call that quite a fair comparison. Most of those characters were either actual set people more than once (Jaller, Kongu, etc.) while people the Bohrok showed up again much, much later when it was mostly Greg's lame fan fiction. In terms of year by year stuff like Onepu vs Korgot they were there for about the same time.

 

And again, considering G2 was two years vs G1's ten, I'd say carrying over almost all of the year one characters was good enough for G2.

 

In some ways, you're both right. In the early years of G1, the story had only comics and books, and the story had to follow the sets. In 2001, the Toa and Turaga had more importance, but in later years, the Turaga and Matoran would fall into the background more and more, where the early part of 2003 gave Vakama a more screen time than all the other Turaga combined.

 

In later years, like 2006 and 2008, characters were handled differently because the writers had more experience working with the story and had already done a lot of worldbuilding. By that time, it was easy to introduce and keep characters around because we were already familiar with the environment.

 

G2 had less to work with. Books didn't come in till later, and the first one was literally just a narrated version of the animations. The problem G2 faced was that it tried to introduce all the characters AND the environment, keeping up with the bigger years of G1. What they should have done was just stayed with the original scheme--start small and gradually work their way up. Minor characters were introduced in favor of exploring already-known characters.

 

To sum it up, there were too many differing factors between the G1 we know and love, and the G2 we have a love-hate relationship with. It's not easy to draw a direct comparison in anything but the pace of their storytelling. 

 

My two cents.

 

-----------------

 

To answer the original topic, I think they could have done better with the pacing of the story. It felt too rushed. The sets were decent, but they could have used a little more attention, I think. The Masters were just fine, but only half of the Uniters felt like truly good sets. Good parts and some neat techniques, but the final result often left something to be desired.

Edited by The 1st Shadow

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So you don't care about the small details of G2 characters because they only show up for one wave, but the G1 characters who only show up for one wave are worthy because of the small details.

 

Logic.

They're worthy because 80% of everything that was introduced stayed around. Since you seem to not remember I'll remind you: Dark Hunters, Piraka, Rahi, Makuta, Jaller, Kongu, Mata Nui, Bohrok, Bahrag, Axonn, Brutaka, Roodaka, Sidorak, etc. etc. etc.

 

Who stayed around in G2? The six Toa and Ekimu. Makuta didn't make an appearance until the very end, and only two or three of the protectors even were anything in the second wave. Yes, logic, because what I've said is actually logical..

 

I wouldn't call that quite a fair comparison. Most of those characters were either actual set people more than once (Jaller, Kongu, etc.) while people the Bohrok showed up again much, much later when it was mostly Greg's lame fan fiction. In terms of year by year stuff like Onepu vs Korgot they were there for about the same time.

 

And again, considering G2 was two years vs G1's ten, I'd say carrying over almost all of the year one characters was good enough for G2.

And you've derailed from the point. G2 had everything behind it that literally every other current successful theme does, and more. And it failed to deliver.

 

So shooting down the fact that G2 simply didn't meet the level of acceptance even Chima received, simply because you're arguing me, is not only incredibly ridiculous, but it makes several of your jabs hypocritical.

 

In some ways, you're both right. In the early years of G1, the story had only comics and books, and the story had to follow the sets. In 2001, the Toa and Turaga had more importance, but in later years, the Turaga and Matoran would fall into the background more and more, where the early part of 2003 gave Vakama a more screen time than all the other Turaga combined.

 

In later years, like 2006 and 2008, characters were handled differently because the writers had more experience working with the story and had already done a lot of worldbuilding. By that time, it was easy to introduce and keep characters around because we were already familiar with the environment.

 

G2 had less to work with. Books didn't come in till later, and the first one was literally just a narrated version of the animations. The problem G2 faced was that it tried to introduce all the characters AND the environment, keeping up with the bigger years of G1. What they should have done was just stayed with the original scheme--start small and gradually work their way up. Minor characters were introduced in favor of exploring already-known characters.

 

To sum it up, there were too many differing factors between the G1 we know and love, and the G2 we have a love-hate relationship with. It's not easy to draw a direct comparison in anything but the pace of their storytelling. 

 

My two cents.

 

-----------------

 

To answer the original topic, I think they could have done better with the pacing of the story. It felt too rushed. The sets were decent, but they could have used a little more attention, I think. The Masters were just fine, but only half of the Uniters felt like truly good sets. Good parts and some neat techniques, but the final result often left something to be desired.

And Shadow gets the point. You can't compare G2 to G1 and expect to find an even ground because they're fundamentally different. So stop trying to prove to me that G2 was good because G1, because anyone encountering that will say the exact opposite with the exact same reason and reasoning.

 

@Shadow: The sets themselves were designed with prices in mind, and with the already more expensive sets, LEGO was probably trying very hard to not push the limit on how high they sold for, but a slight bit more of the old Bionicle aesthetic wouldn't have hurt. At least they brought back the oldest G1 part to be reproduced in G2 - the Guurahk spear tip.

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So you don't care about the small details of G2 characters because they only show up for one wave, but the G1 characters who only show up for one wave are worthy because of the small details.

 

Logic.

They're worthy because 80% of everything that was introduced stayed around. Since you seem to not remember I'll remind you: Dark Hunters, Piraka, Rahi, Makuta, Jaller, Kongu, Mata Nui, Bohrok, Bahrag, Axonn, Brutaka, Roodaka, Sidorak, etc. etc. etc.

 

Who stayed around in G2? The six Toa and Ekimu. Makuta didn't make an appearance until the very end, and only two or three of the protectors even were anything in the second wave. Yes, logic, because what I've said is actually logical..

 

I wouldn't call that quite a fair comparison. Most of those characters were either actual set people more than once (Jaller, Kongu, etc.) while people the Bohrok showed up again much, much later when it was mostly Greg's lame fan fiction. In terms of year by year stuff like Onepu vs Korgot they were there for about the same time.

 

And again, considering G2 was two years vs G1's ten, I'd say carrying over almost all of the year one characters was good enough for G2.

 

And you've derailed from the point. G2 had everything behind it that literally every other current successful theme does, and more. And it failed to deliver.

 

So shooting down the fact that G2 simply didn't meet the level of acceptance even Chima received, simply because you're arguing me, is not only incredibly ridiculous, but it makes several of your jabs hypocritical.

 

Gonna be honest, I have no clue at all what you're saying here. I never mentioned Chima once and I honestly don't see anything I said as hypocritical. If anything, you derailed things by suddenly saying G2 had all the good things when earlier you said it didn't.

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Gonna be honest, I have no clue at all what you're saying here.

Figured as much.

 

They really needed to bring back Terminology, Rahi, A GOOD STORY LINE, mask packs, and locations.

 

Personally, I think they should have just picked up where they left off in G1 and have a prolouge that explains that mata nui defeated makuta after crashing onto bara magna, and compleated his mission to reunite spherus magna and then explain some events that happened before all that as the line progresses.

A prologue would be nice, but it wouldn't fix G2. Like I said, they needed more of what they almost did - making everything finely detailed instead of slapped on.

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How to weaken your argument severely and lose interest from the opposition in one easy step: resort to petty insults instead of clarifying your point.

How to spam: Continue the argument after it was already dropped, and then get your post reported.

 

Dude... G1 wasn't dark. Okay, maybe 2006 and 2008 were a little heavy at times. But the tone for the overall series was pretty lighthearted. Blood 'n guts weren't flying everywhere the way you remember it.

 

The closest G1 ever got to being "gritty" was Stuart Sayger's bad art.

Besides the very bad joke here, I believe that by what most people mean when they say 'gritty' is more serious and less light-hearted than G2 was. Even the happy days of 2001-3 were very realistic, especially for things like MNOG. These character feel bad about what's going on; they're not stick figures on a screen.

 

And although I'm sure everyone would have loved to see a 3D, cel-shaded, 1080 HD version of MNOG, it wouldn't be worth it if the quality was gone.

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How to weaken your argument severely and lose interest from the opposition in one easy step: resort to petty insults instead of clarifying your point.

How to spam: Continue the argument after it was already dropped, and then get your post reported.

 

Dude... G1 wasn't dark. Okay, maybe 2006 and 2008 were a little heavy at times. But the tone for the overall series was pretty lighthearted. Blood 'n guts weren't flying everywhere the way you remember it.

 

The closest G1 ever got to being "gritty" was Stuart Sayger's bad art.

Besides the very bad joke here, I believe that by what most people mean when they say 'gritty' is more serious and less light-hearted than G2 was. Even the happy days of 2001-3 were very realistic, especially for things like MNOG. These character feel bad about what's going on; they're not stick figures on a screen.

 

And although I'm sure everyone would have loved to see a 3D, cel-shaded, 1080 HD version of MNOG, it wouldn't be worth it if the quality was gone.

 

Wasn't dropped or resolved, you just refused to answer.

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Here's my laundry list of G2 Improvements, in no particular order:

  • Recolor all the black/silver clawed feet. They're so boring, and they're on a ton of sets (Protectors, Skull Baddies, Creatures, Beasts, etc.)
  • More recolored HF feet and hands also wouldn't hurt.
  • Give the Protector of Fire and Protector of Ice proper forearms. As they are, the sets have arms that are just these funny little stubs.
  • Make the Protectors of Jungle, Water, and Stone less lanky. Give Protector of Water a better weapon. His little scuba thingy is laaaame.
  • Don't change Korgot (Protector of Earth) at all. (Just make her weapon a proper mace.)
  • Fix Onua Master's hammer by centering the axle in the middle. It looks too front-heavy the way it is.
  • Re-do Pohatu Uniter and give him fewer different shades of brown. His color scheme is pretty cluttered.
  • Re-do the limbs on Lewa Uniter, specifically the legs-- props to the designers for trying something new, but the result looks bad.
  • De-clutter all the Uniter's appearances, especially Tahu's. No blue for you, Tahu!
  • Make the Creatures look less Technic. I know that might be an unpopular opinion, but to me the sets are a weird mix of super-detail and clunky 2001 aesthetic.
  • In fact... just re-do the Creatures. They're weird.
  • So are the Beasts. Time for a makeover.
  • Give the Creatures/Beasts proper BIONICLE umbrella names (eg. Piraka, Barraki, etc.), so I stop getting these generic terms mixed up.
  • Give the Protectors proper names from the get-go, including a name for their species.
  • Replace the trans-orange bits on the Skull Baddies with color scheme-appropriate parts.
  • Shorten Skull Basher's horns, give Slicer a 4th sword instead of the chain (and a better mask), and make Grinder's weapon less clunky. (So basically, re-do the Skull Baddies too).
  • Make the Skull Baddies' weapon blades simpler and less clunky. The sword and axe molds are a little odd-looking.
  • I love the design of Skull Scorpio's function, but his tail is not the time or place for it.
  • Also, have the Skull Baddies come with fully-transparent "drained" Toa masks instead of the gold-blended ones. And release a full wave of 6 to give Tahu/Gali proper villains.
  • Re-release Tahu and Gali's transparent masks through the proposed 2 new villain sets. The Hero Pack was cool, but the exclusive Gali mask's limited distribution was whack.
  • Make all the other promos and polybags more widely available.
  • Repeat this entire process for the 2016 bad guys. Recolor the "corrupted" masks to be fully transparent, fix the weird legs, tidy up the designs, etc.
  • I could keep going, but I'll wrap it up by saying: re-do the entire story, and just try not to ham it up this time.
Edited by Disciple
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They honestly needed big beasts, or Rahi, and also Mask packs. They wanted to make the masks known for being important but there could have been more masks

I honestly think that there should have been mask packs in late 2014 before the sets came out. Edited by Tahu3.0
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They honestly needed big beasts, or Rahi, and also Mask packs. They wanted to make the masks known for being important but there could have been more masks

Considering that those are three categories of sets that proved to be less successful even during G1, I have to question whether they would've made much of a difference for G2. G2's direction, for better or for worse, was shaped in large part by what had been proven to work (or proven not to work) in the past.

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Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

Aanchir's and Meiko's brother

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They honestly needed big beasts, or Rahi, and also Mask packs. They wanted to make the masks known for being important but there could have been more masks

Considering that those are three categories of sets that proved to be less successful even during G1, I have to question whether they would've made much of a difference for G2. G2's direction, for better or for worse, was shaped in large part by what had been proven to work (or proven not to work) in the past.

 

 

Beasts/Rahi might be more of a niche than the bipedal figures, but I don't think they were unsuccessful—if they were unsuccessful, they wouldn't have continued to release animal figures all the way to the end of G1.

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They honestly needed big beasts, or Rahi, and also Mask packs. They wanted to make the masks known for being important but there could have been more masks

Considering that those are three categories of sets that proved to be less successful even during G1, I have to question whether they would've made much of a difference for G2. G2's direction, for better or for worse, was shaped in large part by what had been proven to work (or proven not to work) in the past.

 

 

Beasts/Rahi might be more of a niche than the bipedal figures, but I don't think they were unsuccessful—if they were unsuccessful, they wouldn't have continued to release animal figures all the way to the end of G1.

 

Still, they never released a lot of big (as in, bigger than a Toa) non-humanoid creatures any year besides 2001. There were six Rahi sets in 2001, the Bahrag set in 2002, the Gukko and Pewku in 2003, Nivawk and the Kikanalo in 2004, Fenrakk in 2006, Gadunka in 2007, and Skirmix in 2009. Even counting the 2001 Rahi that's an average of 1.4 big creature sets per year. From 2002 to 2009 they only managed one big creature set per year.

 

I'm not denying that the big Rahi and creature sets were cool, and I'd love more sets like that in the future! But 2001 is they only year they felt like a really major component of Bionicle's recipe for success.

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I'm going to talk from my experience of what drew me into BIONICLE in the first place. It's all very simple: Comics.

 

From what I can tell, there weren't any proper serialized comics in monthly LEGO catalogues for G2, which begs the question of why? There were some neat little animations and visual attempts but there wasn't too big of a draw to the story in comparison to the past. The draw was towards the characters, which frankly the characters never really were that interesting to begin with. They each have their quirks but then you're not selling me on the achievements of the character, only on the presumed power of it. 

 

Comics was one of those things that can draw a person in very easily, especially younger children. Whether they can read or not, they're is still the option of looking at the pictures and piecing together what's going on there. The experience isn't quick, it allows a person to see details frame by frame and to jump around very easily. I can recall when I was younger how I didn't know how to even read well but still I kept the comics because I liked the pictures. They looked cool, they looked interesting, I liked the idea of there being this story that I can wrap myself around when I can read it.

 

Sure, movies and TV shows can be fun, but there's only so many times a person is willing to watch X amount of a show just for one part. Comics eliminated that. They condensed things to the point and gave way to the action or important parts of a story. One of the best parts about it was that by the comic ruling, it didn't need a full story. When you see a TV show, especially an animated one aimed towards younger audiences, they normally aren't overarching. It's often little episodes that showcase a certain goal. They try to show little, complete stories that draw a person in. The issue though is that this makes it very difficult to maintain an audience without a clear goal, especially with characters that as I pointed out before, aren't necessarily that interesting. The comics though, they were like chapters of a story. I can recall my anticipation as the new month draws near of the possibility of the next BIONICLE comic where I can know just what happens next, where last month's cliff hanger would lead to. 

 

It didn't require any extra work either. I wasn't having to go on a computer to check any website or turning on the TV and searching for the show, the content was right in front of me. All I had to do was peel it from the page and get to reading. Not only that but it was something I could bring with me wherever. It wasn't tied to any electronic device, it was just there in my hand. 

 

Perhaps my experience is different than others as every BIONICLE news was mysterious to me at the time. I didn't find out that it actually had books until I went to my school book fairs and saw some there. I think it was the diversified mediums that drew me in as a fan. It was as if everything was a part of this greater lore from the very beginning. Reading the comic, buying a set, checking the instructions and seeing website links, checking the websites and finding user submitted content and games. It was like a scavenger hunt because not everything was all in the same place. 

 

Perhaps that may be counterintuitive with children in this day in age. Maybe not even just children but people of all ages. The convenience of having everything in one spot may seem nice but to me I almost feel like it would've ruined the experience, it would've simply been overwhelming to a child. Who knows though?

 

So in answer to your challenge, the one aspect I would change is to have some actual, proper serialized comics. Something that can draw a person into a tidbit of the story and allow them to further explore at their own choosing. Lead them on a scavenger hunt through various medias to uncover more and more of the story until they're completely enthralled by it. That's what I would change.

 

~Soran

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I relate to and agree with everything that Soran posted. I seriously would have started up a new subscription to the Lego magazine if they produced comics. I'm actually still trying to fill out the gaps in my old collection.

 

The free comics in the magazines were a great thing back in the day, but frankly the graphic novels were probably accessible to a wider audience if only because Lego began to limit magazine subscribers to children last year. Of course, like the magazines, they would probably be made available online for free, which would suffice if you were only interested in the story but not if you were interested in owning physical copies of the comics like your comment suggests.

Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

Aanchir's and Meiko's brother

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I really do think comics would be a good way to garner interest, at the very least, although distribution might be an issue if that's the way the magazine's going.  It'd be nice to have promos outright given to you (as in, you don't have to already know about it to look for and acquire it) that are just short pieces wherein we get cool art of cool people saying cool stuff and doing cool things and seriously buy these sets because these dudes are freaking awesome.

 

That very first G1 comic still gives me chills- pardon the pun.  Kopaka had a heck of an entrance.

It is not for us to decide the fate of angels.

Dominus Temporis, if you're out there, hit me up through one of my contacts.  I've been hoping to get back in touch for a long time now.  (Don't worry, I'm not gonna beg you to bring back MLWTB or something.  :P )

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I relate to and agree with everything that Soran posted. I seriously would have started up a new subscription to the Lego magazine if they produced comics. I'm actually still trying to fill out the gaps in my old collection.

 

 

The free comics in the magazines were a great thing back in the day, but frankly the graphic novels were probably accessible to a wider audience if only because Lego began to limit magazine subscribers to children last year. Of course, like the magazines, they would probably be made available online for free, which would suffice if you were only interested in the story but not if you were interested in owning physical copies of the comics like your comment suggests.

Lego limited their magazine's audience to children? That's odd. I get what you're saying considering that. Speaking of the graphic novels though, I really ought to pick up the one at my local comic store soon. But ch'yeah, I would have been more interested in collecting them than reading them.

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