Can Toa of air control liquid oxygen or hydrogen?

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

So I was watching a video of a rocket launch the other day and got to thinking about liquid rocket fuel and hypergolic reactions. For those who don't know, a hypergolic reaction pertaining to liquid rocket fuel is the mixing of two elements, usually hydrogen and oxygen in liquid form to produce a violent but controlled flame or usually an explosion without heat or a spark. This got me thinking, hylrex said Toa of water only control water, not protodermis, but what does that mean? Toa of air can, and I quote, "create and control air". Air primarily comprises of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and others. So can a Toa of air control the liquid forms of those elements? The solid forms? And that almost pertains to ice in other forms. Can a Toa of air split apart water and cause a hypergolic reaction? Cause that would be pretty ####### cool in a story...

Infrared · August 6, 2016

First, the protodermis question. Out of curiosity, where did Helryx say that? Toa could control either the protodermis or normal versions of their elements. However, Toa that were used to controlling the protodermis version of their element had to train a bit before they could control the normal version, or vice-versa. That process wasn't something the story touched on really, so I figure it wasn't that hard switching between the two. That said, Air is a unique element because the Matoran Universe contained actual air instead of gaseous protodermis.

Cool as it might be, I doubt Toa of Air could control air in liquid or solid form, for the same reason Toa of Water can't control ice and Toa of Ice can't control liquid water. Maybe a really experienced Toa of Air could filter out the different gasses in air. If so, I imagine Toa of Iron or Toa of Water could filter out impurities from their elements too. A Toa of Air definitely couldn't break chemical bonds though. If nothing else, I bet a Toa of Air could take two different gasses and combine them to start a chemical reaction.

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

Ice and Water are chemically the same, but Kopaka can't control water and Gali can't control ice. And Lewa certainly can't control either, even though (pure) water and ice are 1/3 oxygen (and 2/3 hydrogen, but there's actually almost no hydrogen in the air). Fire is just oxidation, but Tahu doesn't make things rust. Earth and Stone aren't that well defined even within the bounds of the story, let alone in scientific terms.

To say nothing of all the other elements.

Is a Toa of Shadow's powers based on absorbing photons? Because a "shadow" isn't an actual positive thing, it's just a lack of light. Would this mean that they have the same power as a Toa of Gravity who creates a black hole? Or would photon control make them the same as a Toa of Light?

Where does a Toa of The Green's powers end? If they can control plants, what stops them from controlling other biological organisms? Why can't they control animals? Are their powers based on if the organism has a cell wall?

Does a Toa of Lightning control all electricity? How? Do they induce a voltage, or do they actively drive the current? Is there an overlap with Magnetism? Can they disrupt or redirect brain impulses? Would this grant them a degree of mind control?

Is a Toa of Sonics really just a Toa of Vibratin' Real Fast?

Applying modern scientific principles to a universe that invokes "elements" in the way of the four "classic" elements is doomed to fail, because you aren't talking about a world that operates on the same rules as our world.

Jeffery Mewtamer · August 6, 2016

And now I want to read a rationalist take on a setting with classical elemental "magic" as the dominant superpower.

Also, normal water is closer to 8/9 Oxygen and 1/9 Hydrogen since the most common isotope of hydrogen has a mass number of 1 and the most common isotope of oxygen as a mass number of 16.

I wonder if a sufficiently advanced water elemental could concentrate all the naturally occurring heavy water(the water containing the rarer Hydrogen-2 aka Deuterium) in a large body of water. Granted, I've no idea what use heavy water has outside of being a nuclear buffer and how often do nuclear technology and elemental magic exist in the same universe?

And assuming an Air elemental could extract pure hydrogen in macroscopic quantities given a large enough volume of air, and could then compress it fast-enough and far enough to trigger a phase transition to metallic hydrogen, could a metal elemental then control the hydrogen and prevent it from evaporating back into hydrogen gas? If the hydrogen passed through a liquid state in the process, is there any elemental that could keep it in it's liquid state and continue the compression?

And yeah, it's kind of weird how Bionicle makes Earth and Stone distinct elements. Sure Wood/Plant/Nature is as often distinct from Earth as it is an apart of earth and Ice and Water are separate elements as often as they are aspects of the same element, but the only other example of stone and earth as two different things I can think of is Pokemon and many of the types in Pokemon aren't even included in most classical element systems so the separation of rock and ground isn't as glaring as it is in Bionicle.

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Ice and Water are chemically the same, but Kopaka can't control water and Gali can't control ice. And Lewa certainly can't control either, even though (pure) water and ice are 1/3 oxygen (and 2/3 hydrogen, but there's actually almost no hydrogen in the air). Fire is just oxidation, but Tahu doesn't make things rust. Earth and Stone aren't that well defined even within the bounds of the story, let alone in scientific terms.

To say nothing of all the other elements.

Is a Toa of Shadow's powers based on absorbing photons? Because a "shadow" isn't an actual positive thing, it's just a lack of light. Would this mean that they have the same power as a Toa of Gravity who creates a black hole? Or would photon control make them the same as a Toa of Light?

Where does a Toa of The Green's powers end? If they can control plants, what stops them from controlling other biological organisms? Why can't they control animals? Are their powers based on if the organism has a cell wall?

Does a Toa of Lightning control all electricity? How? Do they induce a voltage, or do they actively drive the current? Is there an overlap with Magnetism? Can they disrupt or redirect brain impulses? Would this grant them a degree of mind control?

Is a Toa of Sonics really just a Toa of Vibratin' Real Fast?

Applying modern scientific principles to a universe that invokes "elements" in the way of the four "classic" elements is doomed to fail, because you aren't talking about a world that operates on the same rules as our world.

And then there's the whole mess with Stone and Earth. Since we can assume Bionicle takes place on a rocky planet, the crust of its world is going to be comprised of rock, which is what Toa of Stone control. So why can Toa of Earth make earthquakes? These two types of Toa control the exact same substance in the same state of matter, yet they're somehow different? And who controls magma? Surely, if Ice and Water are different, Magma and Earth/Stone are different.

Then there's the question of what is entailed by "Iron." Does it literally just mean Iron, or can Toa of Iron control all metal?

Regarding your question about Toa of Lightning and mind control--is this not an overlap with Psionics? What even is Psionics, then? How does it even work?

As far as Toa of Sonics go, how do their powers even work? Sound is motion, not a force or a substance. Does this mean they're actually Toa of kinetic/potential energy?

Who controls salt or other crystalline substances? Is it the case that Toa of Ice are actually Toa of crystals, which is why they control Ice to begin with? Why aren't there Toa of acidic or basic chemicals?

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

First, the protodermis question. Out of curiosity, where did Helryx say that? Toa could control either the protodermis or normal versions of their elements. However, Toa that were used to controlling the protodermis version of their element had to train a bit before they could control the normal version, or vice-versa. That process wasn't something the story touched on really, so I figure it wasn't that hard switching between the two. That said, Air is a unique element because the Matoran Universe contained actual air instead of gaseous protodermis.

Cool as it might be, I doubt Toa of Air could control air in liquid or solid form, for the same reason Toa of Water can't control ice and Toa of Ice can't control liquid water. Maybe a really experienced Toa of Air could filter out the different gasses in air. If so, I imagine Toa of Iron or Toa of Water could filter out impurities from their elements too. A Toa of Air definitely couldn't break chemical bonds though. If nothing else, I bet a Toa of Air could take two different gasses and combine them to start a chemical reaction.

Destiny war, Toa hylrex vs the protodermis entity. Okay so answer me this then, how do Toa of air create or change the density of air? Can they only compress air to a certain point? Btw the Toa of water Toa of ice comparison is legitimate, but ice isn't just condensed water, it's also crystalized, and I believe I've heard of Toa of water controlling water vapor before.

Ice and Water are chemically the same, but Kopaka can't control water and Gali can't control ice. And Lewa certainly can't control either, even though (pure) water and ice are 1/3 oxygen (and 2/3 hydrogen, but there's actually almost no hydrogen in the air). Fire is just oxidation, but Tahu doesn't make things rust. Earth and Stone aren't that well defined even within the bounds of the story, let alone in scientific terms.

To say nothing of all the other elements.

Is a Toa of Shadow's powers based on absorbing photons? Because a "shadow" isn't an actual positive thing, it's just a lack of light. Would this mean that they have the same power as a Toa of Gravity who creates a black hole? Or would photon control make them the same as a Toa of Light?

Where does a Toa of The Green's powers end? If they can control plants, what stops them from controlling other biological organisms? Why can't they control animals? Are their powers based on if the organism has a cell wall?

Does a Toa of Lightning control all electricity? How? Do they induce a voltage, or do they actively drive the current? Is there an overlap with Magnetism? Can they disrupt or redirect brain impulses? Would this grant them a degree of mind control?

Is a Toa of Sonics really just a Toa of Vibratin' Real Fast?

Applying modern scientific principles to a universe that invokes "elements" in the way of the four "classic" elements is doomed to fail, because you aren't talking about a world that operates on the same rules as our world.

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...

Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...

And now I want to read a rationalist take on a setting with classical elemental "magic" as the dominant superpower.

Also, normal water is closer to 8/9 Oxygen and 1/9 Hydrogen since the most common isotope of hydrogen has a mass number of 1 and the most common isotope of oxygen as a mass number of 16.

I wonder if a sufficiently advanced water elemental could concentrate all the naturally occurring heavy water(the water containing the rarer Hydrogen-2 aka Deuterium) in a large body of water. Granted, I've no idea what use heavy water has outside of being a nuclear buffer and how often do nuclear technology and elemental magic exist in the same universe?

And assuming an Air elemental could extract pure hydrogen in macroscopic quantities given a large enough volume of air, and could then compress it fast-enough and far enough to trigger a phase transition to metallic hydrogen, could a metal elemental then control the hydrogen and prevent it from evaporating back into hydrogen gas? If the hydrogen passed through a liquid state in the process, is there any elemental that could keep it in it's liquid state and continue the compression?

And yeah, it's kind of weird how Bionicle makes Earth and Stone distinct elements. Sure Wood/Plant/Nature is as often distinct from Earth as it is an apart of earth and Ice and Water are separate elements as often as they are aspects of the same element, but the only other example of stone and earth as two different things I can think of is Pokemon and many of the types in Pokemon aren't even included in most classical element systems so the separation of rock and ground isn't as glaring as it is in Bionicle.

I actually have a short story with a nuclear Toa who can turn subcritical material critical, he has neutron reflective shields and boron swords, no lie, I thought of this too. I have an old video called "I plan my mocs" where he cameos in neon green armour

Edited August 6, 2016 by lessovikk4

Infrared · August 6, 2016

First, the protodermis question. Out of curiosity, where did Helryx say that? Toa could control either the protodermis or normal versions of their elements. However, Toa that were used to controlling the protodermis version of their element had to train a bit before they could control the normal version, or vice-versa. That process wasn't something the story touched on really, so I figure it wasn't that hard switching between the two. That said, Air is a unique element because the Matoran Universe contained actual air instead of gaseous protodermis.

Cool as it might be, I doubt Toa of Air could control air in liquid or solid form, for the same reason Toa of Water can't control ice and Toa of Ice can't control liquid water. Maybe a really experienced Toa of Air could filter out the different gasses in air. If so, I imagine Toa of Iron or Toa of Water could filter out impurities from their elements too. A Toa of Air definitely couldn't break chemical bonds though. If nothing else, I bet a Toa of Air could take two different gasses and combine them to start a chemical reaction.
Destiny war, Toa hylrex vs the protodermis entity. Okay so answer me this then, how do Toa of air create or change the density of air? Can they only compress air to a certain point? Btw the Toa of water Toa of ice comparison is legitimate, but ice isn't just condensed water, it's also crystalized, and I believe I've heard of Toa of water controlling water vapor before.

Ah, got it. Here's the quote for reference:

There was nowhere to run. There was nowhere to hide. A tidal wave of Energized Protodermis was headed right for Toa Helryx and Keetongu. When it struck them, it would do one of two things: transform them forever into who knew what, or destroy them both. Desperate, Helryx reached out with her Elemental Power. Despite many thousands of years of honing her control over water to perfection, it did no good. Energized Protodermis, though in liquid form, was not water and was immune to her abilities. Doom was coming in a great silver wave.

Helryx can't control Energized Protodermis, but she can control the normal liquid protodermis that's in the Matoran Universe oceans, which is "water" to the Matoran.

Toa of Air can probably change the density of air, as long as it stays a gas. Maybe the limit of their powers is that they can't compress air into a liquid. Or maybe they can, but then they lose control over the liquid.

As for the water vs. vapor issue, elemental powers were designed by the Great Beings, so they can be pretty arbitrary. I guess the GBs thought it was useful for Water to include water vapor, probably because there's so much of it. (Of course the real answer is that it was convenient for the writers. ) Likewise, my guess is that Toa of Air can't control liquid air because it's so exotic the GBs didn't bother with it.

Actually, do we know how much control Toa of Water have over vapor? The example that comes to mind is Gali pulling moisture from the air in Karzahni. That's not all that different from a Toa of Ice freezing water, really. Or do Toa of Water have more control over vapor than that?

ToaDraconixMahvi · August 6, 2016

In theory, a Toa of Water could control water vapor to a point in which the vapor could coalesce into liquid state, and by working with a Toa of Air, I.e., Lewa and Gali in Chronicles 2, produce storms, and control lightning in the sense of the Naruto Shippuden Lightning Style Jutsu, "Kirin", a "point and shoot" lightning bolt. What's more, a Toa of lightning COULD control someone through the minds own electrical current, but only if they practiced their pinpoint mass-spread control and only that for years, even millenium. I'd say around 3000-4000 years worth of practicing finite control over lightning in a small, but wide, area. A Toa of Shadows would NOT use the same basic matter as a Black hole, but something similar. In a sense, a Toa of Shadows would work EXACTLY like a Toa of Light, but in reverse. Literally, all of Light-speed rush, solid constructs, area of blindness, "merging"(becoming the element in order to fight at a more unique level, seen with Umbra and his laser form), as well as any number of other abilities-but with Darkness. Remember the Makuta Terridax that the Matoran with the Swamp Strider in Karda Nui(Good lord, that's where the Kardas dragon may have come from if it was an entire species of Rahi!) did to prove a point? He absorbed all the light from an area, creating darkness, and somehow killing plants. He created darkness from light. A Kra-Toa would absorb the absence of light to create light where none existed. A Fe-Toa would theoretically control all metal, but iron is the most common metal in existence.

A Toa of Psionics would have a MUCH greater empathetic bond to all organisms, such as one would see with Onewa's mask, and it was theorized from Native American legends that some ancient shamans were so attuned to life itself, they could read minds and talk to animals without needing to open their mouths, so it makes sense, doesn't it? A Toa of Crystals? I don't think that such a thing is exactly possible, but if it were, then strange things might occur...

As for how I explained all this, four things to know:

1. I have an intuitive talent for knowing how to utilize science fiction the way it works only in real life.

2. I research practically every subject that I can find.

3. I'm a very smart person, usually, with minor levels of stupidity every so often.

4. I have autism, which means my brain is wired extensively differently from most other people.

With that, I have one thing more to say: since a Toa of Gravity made a black hole, then why wasnt everything sucked in to the point where there was nothingness?

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...

So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?

Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.

And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.

Edited August 6, 2016 by lessovikk4

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.

Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?

I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...

Edited August 6, 2016 by lessovikk4

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

It's not that Toa of Water can control "part water part protodermis solution", they can control pure liquid protodermis. So a Toa of Water's powers aren't that they can control H₂O, it's that they can control such-and-such liquids that are sort of water-like, unless their powers mean they can control compounds made of hydrogen and oxygen and protodermis is somehow made of hydrogen and oxygen.

I never said that a black hole was "made of ambient darkness or gravity". A black hole is a horrendously dense "object" with a gravitational pull sufficient to absorb everything near it, including photons of light. So how does a Toa of Gravity's powers even work? Do they spontaneously generate or destroy mass to increase or decrease the gravitational pull on a given object? Wouldn't this violate conservation of mass? Do they change an object's density? If so, why is the object not crushed due to its molecules being forced together, or evaporate due to its molecules being forced apart?

If a Toa of Water can control H₂O in gaseous and liquid form, what stops them from controlling it in crystalline form? Nothing about the water changes chemically, and the crystal structure is created with weak polar bonds which are also present in liquid water. There should be no difference, from a scientific standpoint, between telekinetic control over liquid or solid water (in Avatar: The Last Airbender, waterbenders have control over all three phases of water, including the ability to change its phase).

The point about drawing breathable air from water isn't that this is an elemental power, but that a mask made of protodermis can do this. And it's not like there's an oxygen extraction system built in; the Kaukau Nuva, like the rest of the Kanohi Nuva, has this power as an area of effect ability, so even non-wearers are affected. Other masks made of the same substance can do a whole host of other things. Speed, strength, flight, telekinesis, mind control, invisibility, and teleportation are all powers that somehow come from the same material.

None of this is based on real-world science. It's all magic in a fantasy world. Water isn't liquid H₂O, it's "water". Air isn't a gaseous mix of diatomic nitrogen and oxygen, carbon dioxide, and a bunch of other things, it's "air". The reason they seem so vaguely defined is because they are vaguely defined. It's fictional rules in a fictional world, and they aren't going to be consistent with the rules of our world.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Bfahome

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

It's not that Toa of Water can control "part water part protodermis solution", they can control pure liquid protodermis. So a Toa of Water's powers aren't that they can control H₂O, it's that they can control such-and-such liquids that are sort of water-like, unless their powers mean they can control compounds made of hydrogen and oxygen and protodermis is somehow made of hydrogen and oxygen.

I never said that a black hole was "made of ambient darkness or gravity". A black hole is a horrendously dense "object" with a gravitational pull sufficient to absorb everything near it, including photons of light. So how does a Toa of Gravity's powers even work? Do they spontaneously generate or destroy mass to increase or decrease the gravitational pull on a given object? Wouldn't this violate conservation of mass? Do they change an object's density? If so, why is the object not crushed due to its molecules being forced together, or evaporate due to its molecules being forced apart?

If a Toa of Water can control H₂O in gaseous and liquid form, what stops them from controlling it in crystalline form? Nothing about the water changes chemically, and the crystal structure is created with weak polar bonds which are also present in liquid water. There should be no difference, from a scientific standpoint, between telekinetic control over liquid or solid water (in Avatar: The Last Airbender, waterbenders have control over all three phases of water, including the ability to change its phase).

The point about drawing breathable air from water isn't that this is an elemental power, but that a mask made of protodermis can do this. And it's not like there's an oxygen extraction system built in; the Kaukau Nuva, like the rest of the Kanohi Nuva, has this power as an area of effect ability, so even non-wearers are affected. Other masks made of the same substance can do a whole host of other things. Speed, strength, flight, telekinesis, mind control, invisibility, and teleportation are all powers that somehow come from the same material.

None of this is based on real-world science. It's all magic in a fantasy world. Water isn't liquid H₂O, it's "water". Air isn't a gaseous mix of diatomic nitrogen and oxygen, carbon dioxide, and a bunch of other things, it's "air". The reason they seem so vaguely defined is because they are vaguely defined. It's fictional rules in a fictional world, and they aren't going to be consistent with the rules of our world.

And yet toa of water cannot control energized protodermis or ice... This implies there must be some kind of element base that there has to be enough of in the correct form to manipulate. Like water. Protodermis comes in different forms anyway, like organic protodermis can't be solid metal, it must have other elements in it. So Toa of water probably do only manipulate things with an h2o base.

I always thought toa of gravity worked in a similar way to bosons, effecting partials like an energy carrier, this area of physics is already sketchy about why force carriers work the way they do, so I thought they were one n the same. I wasn't saying Toa of gravity can't bend photons, I'm just saying they can't make black holes as that involves other factors.

Why are you so against this anyway? Yeah it is magical but anything's possible so someone can always argue for a viable solution, and as this is a kids story, should we try to teach them about science and not chalk it up to magic?

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...

What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.

Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

Saying something "must" be such a way doesn't make sense because you're trying to apply real-world rules to fictional things. Why can't protodermis be a single material that can be "organic", metal, liquid, or energized? Whence come all these powers in the first place? What would the scientific basis be for telekinetically controlling "air", be it gas or liquid?

Toa of Gravity can create black holes.

I'm "against" this because I think it's not really a good process to go down. Trying to come up with realistic, scientific explanations for impossible fictional scenarios is the way of madness. It's like trying to trace the evolutionary history of a mermaid.

It doesn't matter that it's a story for kids. Trying to get people interested in science by "explaining" non-real occurrences isn't a good strategy, because those non-real occurrences no not exist in our world and are not bound by the rules that our world is.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Saying something "must" be such a way doesn't make sense because you're trying to apply real-world rules to fictional things. Why can't protodermis be a single material that can be "organic", metal, liquid, or energized? Whence come all these powers in the first place? What would the scientific basis be for telekinetically controlling "air", be it gas or liquid?

Toa of Gravity can create black holes.

I'm "against" this because I think it's not really a good process to go down. Trying to come up with realistic, scientific explanations for impossible fictional scenarios is the way of madness. It's like trying to trace the evolutionary history of a mermaid.

It doesn't matter that it's a story for kids. Trying to get people interested in science by "explaining" non-real occurrences isn't a good strategy, because those non-real occurrences no not exist in our world and are not bound by the rules that our world is.

Okay Toa of gravity can create black holes, you got me. I'm still arguing they aren't traditional black holes and evaporate quickly, but whatever, I can't refute the story.

There is no other explanation then a water base for protodermis being manipulated but not energized protodermis.

You can apply science to fiction. Argue correctly and you're never wrong. Like the gahlok Kal who implodes is referred to as creating a black hole but it's not a black hole in the traditional sense you I argue with the validity of the wording.

The point isn't to explain everything. I was trying to justify a cool Toa power. And as for the evolution of a mermaid, thats not a logical explanation for our world, but maybe they evolved for some reason in another, and through that you can explain mutation and natural selection to kids. It's irresponsible to say their isn't an explanation under the laws of physics for something.

Edited August 6, 2016 by lessovikk4

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

There is no other explanation then a water base for protodermis being manipulated but not energized protodermis.

The only reason you see "no other explanation" is because you're limiting what can happen in the fictional world based on what happens in the real world, and I don't see any reason to do that.

You can apply science to fiction.

You can try. But if you try to apply real science to non-real unscientific things, you're going to fail. I return to Greg's ever-popular quote: "Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE, unless scientists discovered Protodermis yesterday and I wasn't told about it."

Argue correctly and you're never wrong.

Build an argument on flawed premises and you won't get anywhere, no matter how good the argument is.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

There is no other explanation then a water base for protodermis being manipulated but not energized protodermis.
The only reason you see "no other explanation" is because you're limiting what can happen in the fictional world based on what happens in the real world, and I don't see any reason to do that.
You can apply science to fiction.
You can try. But if you try to apply real science to non-real unscientific things, you're going to fail. I return to Greg's ever-popular quote: "Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE, unless scientists discovered Protodermis yesterday and I wasn't told about it."
Argue correctly and you're never wrong.
Build an argument on flawed premises and you won't get anywhere, no matter how good the argument is.

How's my argument flawed? And as for Greg, I'm sure he'd endorse a new Toa power, and btw protodermis behaves a lot like gallium if you have to relate it to a real element.

And as for Greg, if you love him so much then why did he tank the 2010 story and stop writing the serials? The story was good at the begging with c a hapaka but then it became about the money and Lego funding, so you can't treat Greg's word like the dub for all things bionicle. Let it be known, fans have designed a wide faucet of the story, like Nikkila, the darks hunters appearances, various Rahi, and others. Greg doesn't even want to be part of the series anymore.w e are the only future, and I'm just trying to enhance it.

Edited August 6, 2016 by lessovikk4

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

It's flawed because it's based on the idea that the BIONICLE world is based on the same rules as our world, which is definitely not the case.

Gallium and protodermis are nothing alike. You don't have to relate it to a real element, because it's not real.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

It's flawed because it's based on the idea that the BIONICLE world is based on the same rules as our world, which is definitely not the case.

Gallium and protodermis are nothing alike. You don't have to relate it to a real element, because it's not real.

Anything's possible, but there's always a logical explanation.

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

Anything's possible

Nope.

but there's always a logical explanation.

And in this case the logical explanation is that this is a story with made-up rules. These rules can be as vague or as contrary to real science as the writers want them to be.

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.
Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.

If a Toa of Water can control water vapor, a Toa of Air may be able to control air in liquid form. Consider this, though: what if the Great Beings specifically created Toa to have the seemingly ruleless limitations we observe? They went out of their way to make Toa of Water able to control water vapor and liquid water, but left Toa of Ice to control solid water so Toa of Water wouldn't be too strong and Ice could still be manipulated. They never wanted anyone to control liquid air, so Toa of Air were not given this ability.

Gravity can be used to compress a lot of matter in a tiny space if one can control it. In fact, black holes form when a star dies because the star gets so big, its own gravity pulls itself into a small area.

That is the actual definition of fluid used by chemists and pysicists. Look it up if you doubt me.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Anything's possible
Nope.
but there's always a logical explanation.
And in this case the logical explanation is that this is a story with made-up rules. These rules can be as vague or as contrary to real science as the writers want them to be.

Okay then, if your just gonna disagree for no reason with no evidence bite me. And if science doesn't matter to you then #### it, Toa of air having this power makes for a great story.

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.
Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.
If a Toa of Water can control water vapor, a Toa of Air may be able to control air in liquid form. Consider this, though: what if the Great Beings specifically created Toa to have the seemingly ruleless limitations we observe? They went out of their way to make Toa of Water able to control water vapor and liquid water, but left Toa of Ice to control solid water so Toa of Water wouldn't be too strong and Ice could still be manipulated. They never wanted anyone to control liquid air, so Toa of Air were not given this ability.

Gravity can be used to compress a lot of matter in a tiny space if one can control it. In fact, black holes form when a star dies because the star gets so big, its own gravity pulls itself into a small area.

That is the actual definition of fluid used by chemists and pysicists. Look it up if you doubt me.

Okay so again, if science no longer matters, it's a cool power so I say they can.

??? Okay, I was only saying there's more to a black hole then a gravity field.

I don't doubt your dictionary definition of fluid, only the context of which it's used. For that definition implies Toa of water and air have interchangeable powers

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Anything's possible
Nope.
but there's always a logical explanation.
And in this case the logical explanation is that this is a story with made-up rules. These rules can be as vague or as contrary to real science as the writers want them to be.
Okay then, if your just gonna disagree for no reason with no evidence bite me. And if science doesn't matter to you then #### it, Toa of air having this power makes for a great story.

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.
Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.
If a Toa of Water can control water vapor, a Toa of Air may be able to control air in liquid form. Consider this, though: what if the Great Beings specifically created Toa to have the seemingly ruleless limitations we observe? They went out of their way to make Toa of Water able to control water vapor and liquid water, but left Toa of Ice to control solid water so Toa of Water wouldn't be too strong and Ice could still be manipulated. They never wanted anyone to control liquid air, so Toa of Air were not given this ability.

Gravity can be used to compress a lot of matter in a tiny space if one can control it. In fact, black holes form when a star dies because the star gets so big, its own gravity pulls itself into a small area.

That is the actual definition of fluid used by chemists and pysicists. Look it up if you doubt me.
Okay so again, if science no longer matters, it's a cool power so I say they can.

??? Okay, I was only saying there's more to a black hole then a gravity field.

I don't doubt your dictionary definition of fluid, only the context of which it's used. For that definition implies Toa of water and air have interchangeable powers

Then we're getting into headcanon territory.

You were proclaiming that Toa of Gravity could not create a black hole. That's why I was saying that. The only reason they wouldn't be able to would be if they required more elemental energy than they actually had.

No, it does not. Air and water are not the same material.

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

The science of the real world doesn't matter to me if I'm reading a fictional story. I'm fine with whatever made-up rules a writer wants to set forth in their universe as long as they aren't contradictory and the story stays within those rules.

If you want to have a version of BIONICLE where elemental powers are based on the molecular chemistry of substances, more power to you. Write that story if you want, it could be interesting. Whether or not it matches the established BIONICLE canon is another matter entirely, and there's been no indication that it would match and many indications to the contrary.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Anything's possible
Nope.
but there's always a logical explanation.
And in this case the logical explanation is that this is a story with made-up rules. These rules can be as vague or as contrary to real science as the writers want them to be.
Okay then, if your just gonna disagree for no reason with no evidence bite me. And if science doesn't matter to you then #### it, Toa of air having this power makes for a great story.

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.
Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.
If a Toa of Water can control water vapor, a Toa of Air may be able to control air in liquid form. Consider this, though: what if the Great Beings specifically created Toa to have the seemingly ruleless limitations we observe? They went out of their way to make Toa of Water able to control water vapor and liquid water, but left Toa of Ice to control solid water so Toa of Water wouldn't be too strong and Ice could still be manipulated. They never wanted anyone to control liquid air, so Toa of Air were not given this ability.

Gravity can be used to compress a lot of matter in a tiny space if one can control it. In fact, black holes form when a star dies because the star gets so big, its own gravity pulls itself into a small area.

That is the actual definition of fluid used by chemists and pysicists. Look it up if you doubt me.
Okay so again, if science no longer matters, it's a cool power so I say they can.

??? Okay, I was only saying there's more to a black hole then a gravity field.

I don't doubt your dictionary definition of fluid, only the context of which it's used. For that definition implies Toa of water and air have interchangeable powers
Then we're getting into headcanon territory.

You were proclaiming that Toa of Gravity could not create a black hole. That's why I was saying that. The only reason they wouldn't be able to would be if they required more elemental energy than they actually had.

No, it does not. Air and water are not the same material.

In real life it takes more than a gravitational field to make a black hole. It does state instances of black holes in the story although the validity is debatable as it does not pertain to the dictionary definition.

If you are referring to the fluid dynamics definition of a mailable substance this can make water vapor and air one in the same by definition. If this isn't what your referring to please cite something.

The science of the real world doesn't matter to me if I'm reading a fictional story. I'm fine with whatever made-up rules a writer wants to set forth in their universe as long as they aren't contradictory and the story stays within those rules.

If you want to have a version of BIONICLE where elemental powers are based on the molecular chemistry of substances, more power to you. Write that story if you want, it could be interesting. Whether or not it matches the established BIONICLE canon is another matter entirely, and there's been no indication that it would match and many indications to the contrary.

Okay I was using science as a reason it would be plausible in the bionicle story. So what rules did I defy laid down in the story that a Toa of air cannot manipulate the liquid bases of the components of air?

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Anything's possible
Nope.
but there's always a logical explanation.
And in this case the logical explanation is that this is a story with made-up rules. These rules can be as vague or as contrary to real science as the writers want them to be.
Okay then, if your just gonna disagree for no reason with no evidence bite me. And if science doesn't matter to you then #### it, Toa of air having this power makes for a great story.

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.
Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.
If a Toa of Water can control water vapor, a Toa of Air may be able to control air in liquid form. Consider this, though: what if the Great Beings specifically created Toa to have the seemingly ruleless limitations we observe? They went out of their way to make Toa of Water able to control water vapor and liquid water, but left Toa of Ice to control solid water so Toa of Water wouldn't be too strong and Ice could still be manipulated. They never wanted anyone to control liquid air, so Toa of Air were not given this ability.

Gravity can be used to compress a lot of matter in a tiny space if one can control it. In fact, black holes form when a star dies because the star gets so big, its own gravity pulls itself into a small area.

That is the actual definition of fluid used by chemists and pysicists. Look it up if you doubt me.
Okay so again, if science no longer matters, it's a cool power so I say they can.

??? Okay, I was only saying there's more to a black hole then a gravity field.

I don't doubt your dictionary definition of fluid, only the context of which it's used. For that definition implies Toa of water and air have interchangeable powers
Then we're getting into headcanon territory.

You were proclaiming that Toa of Gravity could not create a black hole. That's why I was saying that. The only reason they wouldn't be able to would be if they required more elemental energy than they actually had.

No, it does not. Air and water are not the same material.
In real life it takes more than a gravitational field to make a black hole. It does state instances of black holes in the story although the validity is debatable as it does not pertain to the dictionary definition.

If you are referring to the fluid dynamics definition of a mailable substance this can make water vapor and air one in the same by definition. If this isn't what your referring to please cite something.

There aren't gravitational fields in real life, save for those caused by objects. We don't have beings who can just make gravity. If such a being did exist, though, and they were powerful enough, they'd have the strength to compress enough matter into a small enough space to form a black hole. That's what a black hole is. A lot of matter in a small space.

That's like saying Ice and Earth are the same because they're both rigid solids.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Anything's possible
Nope.
but there's always a logical explanation.
And in this case the logical explanation is that this is a story with made-up rules. These rules can be as vague or as contrary to real science as the writers want them to be.
Okay then, if your just gonna disagree for no reason with no evidence bite me. And if science doesn't matter to you then #### it, Toa of air having this power makes for a great story.

Well actually the Toa nuva do vibrate through something with a mask of speed...
Ice is the crystalized version of water so it's not that simple. Why can the Toa of water control water vapor?

The absence of theory is a good one, except Toa vakama used cold to stop the fire entity, so who's to say the Toa of shadow don't do that.

Black holes aren't fully understood so I'm not really sure how darkness can make one... They are made of an undefined super dense material.

And I apriciate the input but how is it doomed to fail? Bionicle always had Toa pushing it to the limits with weird scientific phenomenon.

I do however agree, it would be hard or near impossible for a Toa to break chemical bonds.

And I thought Toa of lightning can control voltage and current, the brains just to complicated and you'de fry it...
So would a Kakama Nuva grant the user Sonic powers? For that matter, wouldn't having power over Air or Water allow the same thing? Sound is vibrations through a medium, so if you can control that medium wouldn't you be able to make sonic blasts?

How does ice being crystallized keep a Toa of Water from controlling it? If a Toa of Air could control liquid oxygen, what's stopping a Toa of Water from controlling, well, crystallized water?

That's my point about Toa of Shadow. If they create "shadow blasts" then if you're taking a scientific approach all they're doing is absorbing or redirecting photons from a specific place. Isn't this just a Toa of Light's power in reverse? On top of that, how is that even remotely threatening? At most they could make it so you can't see and feel a bit cold.

I likened Shadow and Gravity because a black hole also absorbs photons, because it has sufficient gravitational pull. A Toa of Shadow would need to have something like that power that exclusively works on photons in order to create any kind of "darkness".

BIONICLE vs. science is going to fail because, as the good old saying goes, real-life physics don't apply in BIONICLE. What is protodermis? What elements is it made of, and why does it count as water? Is it just hydrogen and oxygen? If so, how can it have such a massive strength-to-mass ratio that it can support a planet-sized robot, which should've crumpled under its own weight before it was even completed? What's the scientific reason that carving this material into mask shapes gives the wearer additional magic powers? Does protodermis just have the inherent ability to filter breathable oxygen from water, or hover, or move fast, or project barriers? How? How does combining six elemental powers create this material?
Okay mr cynic then if a Toa of water can control water vapor and part water part protodermis solution and this was an acquired skill then by all means a Toa of air can defiantly control liquid oxygen.
And a black hole isn't made of ambient darkness or gravity so that doesn't make sense, it's the aftermath of a supernova...

And if a Toa of water can control water vapor then the only explanation for ice is that it's crystalized. Besides, drawing water out of air is the same as drawing air out of water.
Oxygen is not actually air. Air is comprised of multiple chemical elements.

Black holes produce a powerful gravitational pull, so if they can suck in photons via gravity, so can a wielder of gravity itself.

Water vapor is still a fluid. Have you considered that as being an explanation?
I know oxygen is not air, it's a component, it was an example. But protodermis is a liquid and helryx can't manipulate it, so it not Toa of liquid or gas, it's Toa of AIR so air must mean oxygen, and by default liquid oxygen. Also have you considered even if Toa of air cannot manipulate liquid oxygen, they can compress it into a liquid using more air and or by lowering the tempature by changing the outer air density.

Yeah, I get a Toa of gravity could bend photons, thats not the question. The question was could they create black holes and I said no because that requires a supernova of energy, certain types of mater, and other external factors.

What do you mean water vapors a fluid? It's a gaseous form of water, like liquid oxygen is a liquid form of oxygen found in air...
What are you talking about? Protodermis has nothing to do with it; Oxygen and air are not the same substance, so Toa of Air can't control Oxygen.

Black holes occur because so much matter has been pulled into such a small space. A Toa of Gravity could create a gravitational field strong enough to bring in enough matter for a black hole.

Fluid does not mean liquid. A fluid is a substance with no set shape which reacts very easily to pressure. Gases and liquids qualify as fluids.
Fine, a liquid form of all air and it's components in place of oxygen*

? Black holes aren't formed through random fluctuations in gravity. A Toa of gravity cannot produce the material to make a consistent black hole. If they could even do that it would evaporate from lack of energy and form a Planck star or condensed rock if it sucked in anything, so what's even the point.

? Okay then if water vapors a "fluid" (and I'm not sure how your defineing fluid) then liquid oxygen or liquid air, whatever you want to say, something that comprises all the components of air in liquid form that has more than just liquid oxygen, a Toa of air can manipulate it like a Toa of water can manipulate water vapor.
If a Toa of Water can control water vapor, a Toa of Air may be able to control air in liquid form. Consider this, though: what if the Great Beings specifically created Toa to have the seemingly ruleless limitations we observe? They went out of their way to make Toa of Water able to control water vapor and liquid water, but left Toa of Ice to control solid water so Toa of Water wouldn't be too strong and Ice could still be manipulated. They never wanted anyone to control liquid air, so Toa of Air were not given this ability.

Gravity can be used to compress a lot of matter in a tiny space if one can control it. In fact, black holes form when a star dies because the star gets so big, its own gravity pulls itself into a small area.

That is the actual definition of fluid used by chemists and pysicists. Look it up if you doubt me.
Okay so again, if science no longer matters, it's a cool power so I say they can.

??? Okay, I was only saying there's more to a black hole then a gravity field.

I don't doubt your dictionary definition of fluid, only the context of which it's used. For that definition implies Toa of water and air have interchangeable powers
Then we're getting into headcanon territory.

You were proclaiming that Toa of Gravity could not create a black hole. That's why I was saying that. The only reason they wouldn't be able to would be if they required more elemental energy than they actually had.

No, it does not. Air and water are not the same material.
In real life it takes more than a gravitational field to make a black hole. It does state instances of black holes in the story although the validity is debatable as it does not pertain to the dictionary definition.

If you are referring to the fluid dynamics definition of a mailable substance this can make water vapor and air one in the same by definition. If this isn't what your referring to please cite something.
There aren't gravitational fields in real life, save for those caused by objects. We don't have beings who can just make gravity. If such a being did exist, though, and they were powerful enough, they'd have the strength to compress enough matter into a small enough space to form a black hole. That's what a black hole is. A lot of matter in a small space.

That's like saying Ice and Earth are the same because they're both rigid solids.

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?

**Bfahome** · August 6, 2016

Okay I was using science as a reason it would be plausible in the bionicle story. So what rules did I defy laid down in the story that a Toa of air cannot manipulate the liquid bases of the components of air?

I've twice referenced the quote by Greg saying that real-world physics do not apply in BIONICLE. All you've said with regards to whether or not Toa of Air can control liquid is that it cannot be any other way because that's the way things work in our world.

While it might be cool to have a story where the powers involve controlling literal atomic elements, that's a bit harder on the sci-fi scale and doesn't really fit the more fantasy style of what BIONICLE is.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Okay I was using science as a reason it would be plausible in the bionicle story. So what rules did I defy laid down in the story that a Toa of air cannot manipulate the liquid bases of the components of air?
I've twice referenced the quote by Greg saying that real-world physics do not apply in BIONICLE. All you've said with regards to whether or not Toa of Air can control liquid is that it cannot be any other way because that's the way things work in our world.

While it might be cool to have a story where the powers involve controlling literal atomic elements, that's a bit harder on the sci-fi scale and doesn't really fit the more fantasy style of what BIONICLE is.

Okay, I can respect that, I just disagree, but thats your take on bionicle and I know you don't agree with mine so that's fine.

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?

But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.

Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?

Sir Keksalot · August 6, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.
Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?

I know how black holes form; but their formation is caused by gravitational forces. That is my point. What does the type of star have anything to do with it.

I have found nothing to substantiate your claim that Toa of Air can control water vapor. According to BioSector01, they can only control actual air. However, they could probably manipulate the air around water vapor to blow it in a certain direction.

lessovikk4 · August 6, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.
Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?
I know how black holes form; but their formation is caused by gravitational forces. That is my point. What does the type of star have anything to do with it.

I have found nothing to substantiate your claim that Toa of Air can control water vapor. According to BioSector01, they can only control actual air. However, they could probably manipulate the air around water vapor to blow it in a certain direction.

There's more too it than just gravitational forces

I meant to say Toa of water

Sir Keksalot · August 7, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.
Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?
I know how black holes form; but their formation is caused by gravitational forces. That is my point. What does the type of star have anything to do with it.

I have found nothing to substantiate your claim that Toa of Air can control water vapor. According to BioSector01, they can only control actual air. However, they could probably manipulate the air around water vapor to blow it in a certain direction.
There's more too it than just gravitational forces

I meant to say Toa of water

But gravity is the reason why it happens. It's all about matter being compressed into a tiny space.

As has been stated, real-world physical laws don't apply. Again, the Great Beings may have created Toa to have these restrictions in place. Why is Plasma an element? It's not a specific substance, it's a state of matter. Why is Gravity an element? It's a force, not an actual thing. How do elemental powers even work? Bionicle is part sci-fi, part fantasy; the fantasy element is at work here, and real-world logic cannot be reasonably applied in a way that would make sense.

lessovikk4 · August 7, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.
Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?
I know how black holes form; but their formation is caused by gravitational forces. That is my point. What does the type of star have anything to do with it.

I have found nothing to substantiate your claim that Toa of Air can control water vapor. According to BioSector01, they can only control actual air. However, they could probably manipulate the air around water vapor to blow it in a certain direction.
There's more too it than just gravitational forces

I meant to say Toa of water
But gravity is the reason why it happens. It's all about matter being compressed into a tiny space.

As has been stated, real-world physical laws don't apply. Again, the Great Beings may have created Toa to have these restrictions in place. Why is Plasma an element? It's not a specific substance, it's a state of matter. Why is Gravity an element? It's a force, not an actual thing. How do elemental powers even work? Bionicle is part sci-fi, part fantasy; the fantasy element is at work here, and real-world logic cannot be reasonably applied in a way that would make sense.

Okay, one more time, there's more too it then gravity, otherwise a red giant would form a black hole not a white dwarf.

Plasma can refer to different things, a state of matter, electrical current, bodily fluid. As said, the books definition of a black hole is flawed, and so may be plasma, gravity is a force, it's one of the 4 fundamental forces, and it's suspected it's caused by force carrying bosons lovingly called theorized gravatons. I'm not sure how a Toa of gravity works or all these other questions, and like I said, if the writer wants to say something that's fine, and I'm not the writer, but I never said the writer was wrong, I suggested a Toa power and why it COULD work, if you don't like it thats fine, and it's not yet part of the story and probably won't be but I'm just proving why it would work. So I don't understand you guys saying the writer didn't intend it, he didn't say anything about it but he didn't say anything against it so why are you all mad about it?

Sir Keksalot · August 7, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.
Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?
I know how black holes form; but their formation is caused by gravitational forces. That is my point. What does the type of star have anything to do with it.

I have found nothing to substantiate your claim that Toa of Air can control water vapor. According to BioSector01, they can only control actual air. However, they could probably manipulate the air around water vapor to blow it in a certain direction.
There's more too it than just gravitational forces

I meant to say Toa of water
But gravity is the reason why it happens. It's all about matter being compressed into a tiny space.

As has been stated, real-world physical laws don't apply. Again, the Great Beings may have created Toa to have these restrictions in place. Why is Plasma an element? It's not a specific substance, it's a state of matter. Why is Gravity an element? It's a force, not an actual thing. How do elemental powers even work? Bionicle is part sci-fi, part fantasy; the fantasy element is at work here, and real-world logic cannot be reasonably applied in a way that would make sense.
Okay, one more time, there's more too it then gravity, otherwise a red giant would form a black hole not a white dwarf.

Plasma can refer to different things, a state of matter, electrical current, bodily fluid. As said, the books definition of a black hole is flawed, and so may be plasma, gravity is a force, it's one of the 4 fundamental forces, and it's suspected it's caused by force carrying bosons lovingly called theorized gravatons. I'm not sure how a Toa of gravity works or all these other questions, and like I said, if the writer wants to say something that's fine, and I'm not the writer, but I never said the writer was wrong, I suggested a Toa power and why it COULD work, if you don't like it thats fine, and it's not yet part of the story and probably won't be but I'm just proving why it would work. So I don't understand you guys saying the writer didn't intend it, he didn't say anything about it but he didn't say anything against it so why are you all mad about it?

Okay, one more time, GRAVITY IS WHY IT HAPPENS AT ALL. Obviously, there's multiple factors; but the most important one is gravity.

Plasma, in the context of Bionicle, refers to a superheated gas-like substance. It's never defined what the plasma actually is. It's not electricity because that would fall under the domain of a Toa of Lightning.

Gravity, as one theory goes, is the result of objects causing an impression in space-time like objects resting on a mattress. That is where the force comes from. Ergo, a Toa of Gravity is actually a Toa of Space-time.

You are presenting your proposals like they are fact when, in reality, there is no concrete evidence to support them because Greg-senpai has confirmed that Bionicle physics are not like our own. How do we know what the "air" of the Bionicle world even is? Is it really the same gas we breathe? What is their "water?" Nobody is getting mad, you're just presenting theories as if they are solid, undeniable facts. We don't even know if the Great Beings made all Toa to be able to control everything in every state of matter. The rules they set in place remain a mystery, so there is little use in trying to speculate what the rest of their rules are when they don't make sense as it is.

lessovikk4 · August 7, 2016

Yeah I know, black holes are caused by supernovas and held together by unknown forces we don't fully understand, why do they evaporate and release Hawking radiation? No one knows, there more complex then just collapsing a star into a white dwarf.

Okay, then why use that simile?
But the reason black holes happen is gravity. Gravity is why the star collapses.

To illustrate why your point was wrong; that's what rhetorical devices are for. Air and water aren't the same chemical. Toa of one cannot control the other, regardless of anything having to do with what state of matter they're in. The fact that they are both fluids has nothing to do with it.
Black holes are caused by stars going supernova and collapsing, regular stars won't cut it...

Then why can Toa of air control water vapor?
I know how black holes form; but their formation is caused by gravitational forces. That is my point. What does the type of star have anything to do with it.

I have found nothing to substantiate your claim that Toa of Air can control water vapor. According to BioSector01, they can only control actual air. However, they could probably manipulate the air around water vapor to blow it in a certain direction.
There's more too it than just gravitational forces

I meant to say Toa of water
But gravity is the reason why it happens. It's all about matter being compressed into a tiny space.

As has been stated, real-world physical laws don't apply. Again, the Great Beings may have created Toa to have these restrictions in place. Why is Plasma an element? It's not a specific substance, it's a state of matter. Why is Gravity an element? It's a force, not an actual thing. How do elemental powers even work? Bionicle is part sci-fi, part fantasy; the fantasy element is at work here, and real-world logic cannot be reasonably applied in a way that would make sense.
Okay, one more time, there's more too it then gravity, otherwise a red giant would form a black hole not a white dwarf.

Plasma can refer to different things, a state of matter, electrical current, bodily fluid. As said, the books definition of a black hole is flawed, and so may be plasma, gravity is a force, it's one of the 4 fundamental forces, and it's suspected it's caused by force carrying bosons lovingly called theorized gravatons. I'm not sure how a Toa of gravity works or all these other questions, and like I said, if the writer wants to say something that's fine, and I'm not the writer, but I never said the writer was wrong, I suggested a Toa power and why it COULD work, if you don't like it thats fine, and it's not yet part of the story and probably won't be but I'm just proving why it would work. So I don't understand you guys saying the writer didn't intend it, he didn't say anything about it but he didn't say anything against it so why are you all mad about it?
Okay, one more time, GRAVITY IS WHY IT HAPPENS AT ALL. Obviously, there's multiple factors; but the most important one is gravity.

Plasma, in the context of Bionicle, refers to a superheated gas-like substance. It's never defined what the plasma actually is. It's not electricity because that would fall under the domain of a Toa of Lightning.

Gravity, as one theory goes, is the result of objects causing an impression in space-time like objects resting on a mattress. That is where the force comes from. Ergo, a Toa of Gravity is actually a Toa of Space-time.

You are presenting your proposals like they are fact when, in reality, there is no concrete evidence to support them because Greg-senpai has confirmed that Bionicle physics are not like our own. How do we know what the "air" of the Bionicle world even is? Is it really the same gas we breathe? What is their "water?" Nobody is getting mad, you're just presenting theories as if they are solid, undeniable facts. We don't even know if the Great Beings made all Toa to be able to control everything in every state of matter. The rules they set in place remain a mystery, so there is little use in trying to speculate what the rest of their rules are when they don't make sense as it is.

I don't know enough about Toa of plasma, please cite sources.

Gravity isn't the initial cause of a black hole.

The space time theory isn't a cause of gravity, force carriers of the strong force. Weak force, and electromagnetic force have all been proven, so my theory is more solid.

I don't know what I said like fact that wasn't a true fact. Once again Greg doesn't care enough about the story to even give it a satisfactory ending, or to even keep writing it. And what did I say that contradicted him, I'm not "proving" why everything works, I'm saying why this theory could work, everything I said has been based on facts, I can cite you articals. And again, if you don't like the theory thats fine but until either of us gets custody of the series, neither of us can say the others opinion is flat out wrong, and I want a more scientific story so I'm not saying your wrong, just what I want in the story.

Cited evidence it takes more than initial gravity to make a black hole:

star can collapse under its own weight after its nuclear fuel has been exhausted. Once the energy is gone, a star about as massive as the sun remains as a slowly cooling white dwarf that still has normal matter in it. A more massive star can collapse further. Beyond a certain mass, the star's atoms sweat electrons to the surface, and the body collapses into what is basically a single atom around 10 miles across. This is a neutron star, and it is made out of protons and neutrons with a dusting of electrons on its surface.

When the mass of the star has exceeded even the neutrons' ability to hold up the star, however, the entire body collapses to its final state, that of a black hole.

Edited August 7, 2016 by lessovikk4

Can Toa of air control liquid oxygen or hydrogen?

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