Should abstract hands come back?

[Sir Keksalot]

I initially saw the "fist" pieces used in constraction ever since 2009 as a blessing--any additional detail that brought a set closer to how it looked in the movies was, to my child mind, better. Those abstract hands always seemed rather odd to me, as I never really saw them as hands, but as lobes that miraculously held on to things. Now, though, I realize that I'd have been wise to be careful what I wished for, since I ended up getting it.

 

You see, the abstract hands were a lot more versatile in the department of attaching things to them. As a result, more weapons could be used by characters with such hands. Consider Ehlek's claws--there's no way to put those on a fist without the whole thing looking strange and, most likely, not like how the builder would want. IMO, such weapons look best when the palm of the hand holding them is facing inward and gripping the weapon's handle like that of a shield. The sideways holes on an abstract hand allow such weapons to be held in a way that looks natural, and the model benefits from it.

 

With that said, if G3 were to happen, should abstract hands replace fists?

[CaT in Rogue]

I wouldn't say "replace"; more like "supplement". Give the fists to characters with weapons that would work with fists, and give the abstract hands to characters who have weapons that work with the abstract hands. 2009 did this with Malum, so it's not like it's unfeasible or anything.

[Bfahome]

Not on principle. The single socket pieces haven't been replaced entirely by the fist pieces; for example, Malum, a set from the year molded hands were introduced, used the old socket pieces to attach his large claw pieces. Many current sets also have custom-built claws, so I don't think the option is going to be going away any time soon.

[Aanchir]

Not really, no. The older Y-joint hands were more versatile as connectors, and Y-joints still exist for that purpose. They are also still used for attaching weapons like claws that are meant to take the place of a more conventional hand — some of the new Bionicle "beast" sets use them in that way, as did some Hero Factory sets like Thornraxx.

 

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

 

Realistically, if the current hand were to be replaced, I'd rather it be replaced with something that still looks recognizably hand-like, but just with more connection points, or even with posable fingers. But making something as abstract as the Y-joint the default hand style just for the sake of one extra connection point feels like a step backwards. In the meantime, I'm fine with fists being used as the standard and Y-joints being used in cases where a fist would not be practical, as many previous Bionicle and Hero Factory sets have done.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Aanchir

[Ta-metru_defender]

Only if they have abstract fingers.

[emily]

I'd love to have abstract designs in general come back - with distinct, non-humanoid shapes and forms that don't aspire to realism.

 

But that's not the way things seem to be going for constraction, for better or worse. With the current design philosophy, I think the hand-shaped hands make sense - and like people already said, the Y-joint is still around for use when a design calls for it.

[Takametru007]

In some ways, I too preferred the abstract hands. 

 

1. You could flip a sword from an overhand to an underhand grip without actually taking the weapon off the hand (and without worrying about the "thumb" facing the wrong way).

 

2. Because of the second position for holding the sword, there was a wider range of motion from the wrist.

 

3. The abstract hand could be seen either as a fist, or an open palm (though more often the latter it seems). With the new hands, there's only one interpretation.

 

4. The new fists are often much bigger, and thus are more apt to look oversized on smaller characters (such as the protectors).

 

5. Each set has much more limited MOC piece potential because of the lack of connection points and awkward shape of the new hand pieces.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Takametru007

[Pohaturon]

Honestly, I prefer the y joints as hands simply because they feel more like "Bionicle" than the more hand-like hands. For some reason I think they actually look better, but I guess it's just because of nostalgia. I still use the y joints on most of my MOCs for just that reason. I also think the hand-like hands just look... off. The Glatorian hands with their awkwardly round fingers and length were just odd and really did not feel appealing. The G2 hands are better, but they're all silver and black (with the odd trans color here and there) but they still have fewer connections and don't look good enough to compensate.

 

[Sir Keksalot]

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

The solution to that is not to re-design the hand, but the weapon. From the start, Zamor launchers and their ilk were made to need the hand to hold them that way; but if, instead, the handle was positioned so that the hand could hold the weapon in the standard "broad side facing inward" position, it would look just fine. Same with "perpendicular to the plane of the hand" weapons--the weapon should be designed so that it can be held in the normal position, as with '08 Lewa's sword.

 

And where would more holes go on a fist? The fingers kind of block any other points of connection.

[Bfahome]

And where would more holes go on a fist? The fingers kind of block any other points of connection.

On the current fist?  Nowhere I can think of.  On a new hand piece?  Probably the palm.  Imagine a hand piece without fingers that has a bar for things like Exo-Force arms to clip onto to serve as fingers and thumb.  It has a pin or axle hole through the palm for weapon attachments.  That's the dream hand right there.

[Sir Keksalot]

 

And where would more holes go on a fist? The fingers kind of block any other points of connection.

On the current fist?  Nowhere I can think of.  On a new hand piece?  Probably the palm.  Imagine a hand piece without fingers that has a bar for things like Exo-Force arms to clip onto to serve as fingers and thumb.  It has a pin or axle hole through the palm for weapon attachments.  That's the dream hand right there.

 

That doesn't solve the "Ehlek's claws" dilemma because then, the palms must face outwards to hold the weapon. If it's a matter of the hole running through the hand, that would look very strange indeed.

[Sumiki]

I'd only want abstract hands back if we can also get abstract everything else.  LEGO has been very focused on details in recent years and I'd love to see sets with more abstraction.

[Bfahome]

That doesn't solve the "Ehlek's claws" dilemma because then, the palms must face outwards to hold the weapon. If it's a matter of the hole running through the hand, that would look very strange indeed.

There is no dilemma, though. In situations where the character has claw weapons like that, a normal single socket would be used, as has been done for sets like Malum mentioned above.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

And where would more holes go on a fist? The fingers kind of block any other points of connection.

On the current fist?  Nowhere I can think of.  On a new hand piece?  Probably the palm.  Imagine a hand piece without fingers that has a bar for things like Exo-Force arms to clip onto to serve as fingers and thumb.  It has a pin or axle hole through the palm for weapon attachments.  That's the dream hand right there.

 

thought a doodle might be relevant, since that's my thing:

yes? no? idk, kinda a mix concept of the current fist, a y-socket, the beast foot, and the droid torso, has a hole all the way through the palm and a hole on either side to attach a thumb-swivel assembly, could use chima claw, exo-force arms, or some new skinnier finger?

 

Pros: is detailed, poseable, probably scaled a bit better than current custom styles

 

Cons: might be too fragile? probably adds too many pieces for smaller sets to use (five parts a hand)

[Scrapmetaru]

 

 

And where would more holes go on a fist? The fingers kind of block any other points of connection.

 

On the current fist?  Nowhere I can think of.  On a new hand piece?  Probably the palm.  Imagine a hand piece without fingers that has a bar for things like Exo-Force arms to clip onto to serve as fingers and thumb.  It has a pin or axle hole through the palm for weapon attachments.  That's the dream hand right there.

 

thought a doodle might be relevant, since that's my thing:

yes? no? idk, kinda a mix concept of the current fist, a y-socket, the beast foot, and the droid torso, has a hole all the way through the palm and a hole on either side to attach a thumb-swivel assembly, could use chima claw, exo-force arms, or some new skinnier finger?

 

Pros: is detailed, poseable, probably scaled a bit better than current custom styles

 

Cons: might be too fragile? probably adds too many pieces for smaller sets to use (five parts a hand)

I've been thinkin' about something like that for a while. Thanks for drawing it.

[Sir Keksalot]

 

That doesn't solve the "Ehlek's claws" dilemma because then, the palms must face outwards to hold the weapon. If it's a matter of the hole running through the hand, that would look very strange indeed.

There is no dilemma, though. In situations where the character has claw weapons like that, a normal single socket would be used, as has been done for sets like Malum mentioned above.

 

Maybe it's because I'm OCD, but I can't stand the idea of different sets having different hands pieces unless it's a design thing, like how G2 Onua has different feet than the other Toa because it complements his "big" aesthetic.  When it's something like Malum's hands, and it's just to accommodate for a certain piece, I just can't take it.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

By "Y-joint" are we talking the piece that was used for hands, hip joints, and ankle joints in many throwbot sets and it's modern equivalents, the technic piece that has a central cross hole with 3 unit axles spaced at 120 degrees in a plane(the axle through the central hole would be normal to this plane), or something else?

[Sir Keksalot]

By "Y-joint" are we talking the piece that was used for hands, hip joints, and ankle joints in many throwbot sets and it's modern equivalents, the technic piece that has a central cross hole with 3 unit axles spaced at 120 degrees in a plane(the axle through the central hole would be normal to this plane), or something else?

We're talking about the piece used to represent hands from 2002 to 2008. The piece is shaped like a Y.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Sir Keksalot

[Aanchir]

 

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

The solution to that is not to re-design the hand, but the weapon. From the start, Zamor launchers and their ilk were made to need the hand to hold them that way; but if, instead, the handle was positioned so that the hand could hold the weapon in the standard "broad side facing inward" position, it would look just fine. Same with "perpendicular to the plane of the hand" weapons--the weapon should be designed so that it can be held in the normal position, as with '08 Lewa's sword.

 

So why couldn't you just as easily design new weapons similar to Ehlek's claws to work better with the existing fist piece? I don't understand blaming the hand piece for awkward weapon grip in some cases and blaming the weapon itself in others. It wouldn't really be any harder to "fix" Ehlek's claw than to do the same for the Nynrah Ghost Blaster:

 

 

A claw like this would arguably even look more realistic on either a Y-joint or a fist piece, since it'd wrap around the hand instead of just being sorta pasted onto the back.

 

And where would more holes go on a fist? The fingers kind of block any other points of connection.

For the "Ehlek claw" use like you describe, the simplest I can figure would be on the back of the hand, opposite the thumb. It may need the shape of the fist to be changed somewhat so the back of the hand is flat rather than at an angle, but this is not impossible to imagine — Christoph Röttjer even conceptualized a similar-shaped hand as an early concept for the CCBS fists as seen here (bottom row, third from the left). Or you could even do something sort of like Rahkshi Lalonde's concept.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Aanchir

[Sir Keksalot]

 

 

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

The solution to that is not to re-design the hand, but the weapon. From the start, Zamor launchers and their ilk were made to need the hand to hold them that way; but if, instead, the handle was positioned so that the hand could hold the weapon in the standard "broad side facing inward" position, it would look just fine. Same with "perpendicular to the plane of the hand" weapons--the weapon should be designed so that it can be held in the normal position, as with '08 Lewa's sword.

 

So why couldn't you just as easily design new weapons similar to Ehlek's claws to work better with the existing fist piece? I don't understand blaming the hand piece for awkward weapon grip in some cases and blaming the weapon itself in others. It wouldn't really be any harder to "fix" Ehlek's claw than to do the same for the Nynrah Ghost Blaster:

 

 

A claw like this would arguably even look more realistic on either a Y-joint or a fist piece, since it'd wrap around the hand instead of just being sorta pasted onto the back.

 

I've thought about the possibility of such a piece before; however, there's the issue of removing the weapon once you get it on. Looking at the design, I'd imagine you need an axle to attach the weapon to the hand. However, once it's on, wouldn't it be stuck on the hand, with no way to get it off?

[Bfahome]

thought a doodle might be relevant, since that's my thing:

yes? no? idk, kinda a mix concept of the current fist, a y-socket, the beast foot, and the droid torso, has a hole all the way through the palm and a hole on either side to attach a thumb-swivel assembly, could use chima claw, exo-force arms, or some new skinnier finger?

 

Pros: is detailed, poseable, probably scaled a bit better than current custom styles

 

Cons: might be too fragile? probably adds too many pieces for smaller sets to use (five parts a hand)

That's sort of what I was thinking, except instead of axle holes on the sides (which would probably make the piece too fragile, yes, and would interfere with the palm hole) I was thinking of having additional bar clips.  And having the end be like this to allow for three fingers.

 

Maybe it's because I'm OCD, but I can't stand the idea of different sets having different hands pieces unless it's a design thing, like how G2 Onua has different feet than the other Toa because it complements his "big" aesthetic.  When it's something like Malum's hands, and it's just to accommodate for a certain piece, I just can't take it.

Yeah, that's just differences in taste then.  I'm more favorable to the idea of one set having a unique hand construction than making all the sets in a wave use a certain kind of hand just because one set needed to.

[Aanchir]

 

 

 

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

The solution to that is not to re-design the hand, but the weapon. From the start, Zamor launchers and their ilk were made to need the hand to hold them that way; but if, instead, the handle was positioned so that the hand could hold the weapon in the standard "broad side facing inward" position, it would look just fine. Same with "perpendicular to the plane of the hand" weapons--the weapon should be designed so that it can be held in the normal position, as with '08 Lewa's sword.

 

So why couldn't you just as easily design new weapons similar to Ehlek's claws to work better with the existing fist piece? I don't understand blaming the hand piece for awkward weapon grip in some cases and blaming the weapon itself in others. It wouldn't really be any harder to "fix" Ehlek's claw than to do the same for the Nynrah Ghost Blaster:

 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8523/29441850743_706450bb9e_o.png

 

A claw like this would arguably even look more realistic on either a Y-joint or a fist piece, since it'd wrap around the hand instead of just being sorta pasted onto the back.

 

I've thought about the possibility of such a piece before; however, there's the issue of removing the weapon once you get it on. Looking at the design, I'd imagine you need an axle to attach the weapon to the hand. However, once it's on, wouldn't it be stuck on the hand, with no way to get it off?

 

Since the connection points are just a half module thick and two modules apart, there should be no risk of an axle becoming stuck. Even the shortest axles (2M) would stick out by a half module, just enough to reach the built-in notch and pull them out. Same as with the shell pieces from Kalmah, Carapar, and Toa Mahri Matoro, or the Unity Piece from this year's Bionicle sets.

 

Not sure if my explanation is clear, but here's an illustration in case it's too confusing:

 

[Lyichir]

 

 

 

 

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

The solution to that is not to re-design the hand, but the weapon. From the start, Zamor launchers and their ilk were made to need the hand to hold them that way; but if, instead, the handle was positioned so that the hand could hold the weapon in the standard "broad side facing inward" position, it would look just fine. Same with "perpendicular to the plane of the hand" weapons--the weapon should be designed so that it can be held in the normal position, as with '08 Lewa's sword.

 

So why couldn't you just as easily design new weapons similar to Ehlek's claws to work better with the existing fist piece? I don't understand blaming the hand piece for awkward weapon grip in some cases and blaming the weapon itself in others. It wouldn't really be any harder to "fix" Ehlek's claw than to do the same for the Nynrah Ghost Blaster:

 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8523/29441850743_706450bb9e_o.png

 

A claw like this would arguably even look more realistic on either a Y-joint or a fist piece, since it'd wrap around the hand instead of just being sorta pasted onto the back.

 

I've thought about the possibility of such a piece before; however, there's the issue of removing the weapon once you get it on. Looking at the design, I'd imagine you need an axle to attach the weapon to the hand. However, once it's on, wouldn't it be stuck on the hand, with no way to get it off?

 

Since the connection points are just a half module thick and two modules apart, there should be no risk of an axle becoming stuck. Even the shortest axles (2M) would stick out by a half module, just enough to reach the built-in notch and pull them out. Same as with the shell pieces from Kalmah, Carapar, and Toa Mahri Matoro, or the Unity Piece from this year's Bionicle sets.

 

Not sure if my explanation is clear, but here's an illustration in case it's too confusing:

 

 

 

Alternatively, only having connection points on either the top or the bottom (but not both) would solve the problem effectively.

[Sir Keksalot]

 

 

 

 

But as hands, Y-joints often looked awkward and unnatural when a weapon was held through the center cross axle hole rather than one of the side cross-axle holes. In many cases it would look like the weapon was coming out of the figure's fingertip, perpendicular to the plane of the hand, rather than the figure actually gripping the weapon. For example, look at how Mistika Toa Tahu set looks holding his Nynrah Ghost Blaster in this picture. Even without molded fingers to indicate a "proper" way that he should hold a weapon, the position his hand has to be in to hold that weapon looks awkward and uncomfortable. The sword-hand of Phantoka Toa Lewa in this picture doesn't seem quite so bent out of shape, but it still looks more like the weapon's projecting from the plane of an open hand than like a hand is wrapped around the weapon.

The solution to that is not to re-design the hand, but the weapon. From the start, Zamor launchers and their ilk were made to need the hand to hold them that way; but if, instead, the handle was positioned so that the hand could hold the weapon in the standard "broad side facing inward" position, it would look just fine. Same with "perpendicular to the plane of the hand" weapons--the weapon should be designed so that it can be held in the normal position, as with '08 Lewa's sword.

 

So why couldn't you just as easily design new weapons similar to Ehlek's claws to work better with the existing fist piece? I don't understand blaming the hand piece for awkward weapon grip in some cases and blaming the weapon itself in others. It wouldn't really be any harder to "fix" Ehlek's claw than to do the same for the Nynrah Ghost Blaster:

 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8523/29441850743_706450bb9e_o.png

 

A claw like this would arguably even look more realistic on either a Y-joint or a fist piece, since it'd wrap around the hand instead of just being sorta pasted onto the back.

 

I've thought about the possibility of such a piece before; however, there's the issue of removing the weapon once you get it on. Looking at the design, I'd imagine you need an axle to attach the weapon to the hand. However, once it's on, wouldn't it be stuck on the hand, with no way to get it off?

 

Since the connection points are just a half module thick and two modules apart, there should be no risk of an axle becoming stuck. Even the shortest axles (2M) would stick out by a half module, just enough to reach the built-in notch and pull them out. Same as with the shell pieces from Kalmah, Carapar, and Toa Mahri Matoro, or the Unity Piece from this year's Bionicle sets.

 

Not sure if my explanation is clear, but here's an illustration in case it's too confusing:

 

Axles tend to be really hard to remove when only that much is sticking out, though; especially with brand-new parts. Now, if each connection point were moved apart from each other by the length of a bushing, you could simply take a single axle and a half-bushing and put the weapon on with those. Because the connection point is only a half-bushing thick, and that's also the distance from the bottom connection point to the bottom of the hand, you could just push the claw up and take off the axle and half-bushing from there.

[MrSciFiGuy]

I prefer the Y-joint opposed to hands for the versatility of connection points. But I wouldn't mind the current use of fists if they supplemented with more parts. I did like the use of "custom" hands in the Beast wave of G2. Posable digits in a canister set is really great!

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

Not sure if my explanation is clear, but here's an illustration in case it's too confusing

That weapon design is genius and makes a lot more sense than the original weapon

Edited October 4, 2016 by necross hordika

[Millennium]

They don't need to come back because they've never gone away.

[Sir Keksalot]

They don't need to come back because they've never gone away.

I meant for the express purpose of being hands. There's not enough of them in a set to swap out the fists for them.

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

Abstract socket joints should be phased out in favour of fingered fists IMO.

[evil_jaga_genius]

Yeah abstract mitts should stay around.  It's much easier to do a stab / dramatic point pose using the tip of the y-joint hands than to use the new fist parts, and frankly, I'd rather have a cool-looking pose over a cool-looking hand.

[Iruini Nuva]

Would love to see the level of abstraction return, especially on late G1 sets (Stars, etc.). The fists aren't terrible with the G2 aesthetic, which is already much less abstract, but I've never felt like fists enhanced Bionicle in a meaningful way.