The Official OTC TBRPG Planning and Organization Topic

[Havelock Vetinari]

The numbers I'm seeing are maybe okay estimations for a small city state in the Fertile Crescent. Ancient armies could get rather large.

[Lara White]

@ Tyler: See, my problem with that is that I'm planning this to be an entirely different version of the assassination. Otherwise the players could just go look up stuff in the actual Warren Commission report and use that. XD

 

Besides, the real-life version was kinda...surprisingly mundane.

 

[Alex Humva]

Indeed they could, but they'd never stick around. Rome was odd in the fashion that they had large professional armies in a day and age when that really wasn't heard of. Levies ruled... until even modern times. The Greeks practiced some in the area of professional armies but never much.

 

When you consider the vast majority of your population is engaged in farming, you really can't even afford to have proper professional armies.

[shadow pridak money gang]

Ah, I think I see what you're talking about then. Are you still going to try and work with the same basic time period and setting? It would make sense - JFK was warned time and again that Dallas was going to be a hotbed of danger for him in the days before his death. Perhaps not a magic bullet on a crowded street but there was no better time and place than November in Texas.

 

-Tyler

[Havelock Vetinari]

Let me put it this way, one of the more credible accounts of Estruscan losses during their war with the city of Rome was around 8,000.

 

And do not even get me started on the Persians. The numbers here are small. Very small. If these were city states at the start, they would very much make sense. If we're starting with Kingdoms/mini-empires/whatever, they don't make much sense.

[Alex Humva]

We aren't mini-empires though. We have one, two major cities to our name and the associated hamlets.

 

You're also assuming absurdly low EP counts; 20 EP for 20,000 levies is not a bad deal at all.

[Lara White]

Ah, I think I see what you're talking about then. Are you still going to try and work with the same basic time period and setting? It would make sense - JFK was warned time and again that Dallas was going to be a hotbed of danger for him in the days before his death. Perhaps not a magic bullet on a crowded street but there was no better time and place than November in Texas.

 

-Tyler

That would probably work fine. I can do that.

 

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

There's not really much of a backstory is there Humva? You just say "Yup here's some land. Some of it oozes magic". Give it some history, some life, some meat on the bones. Because otherwise it just a list of mechanics and info dumps, which isn't particularly appealing by itself

Edited November 25, 2013 by More Fierce Than Fire

[Havelock Vetinari]

The examples were low. I was forced to assume that was the norm.

 

Besides, in 480 CE the Persian Empire ruled over this area:

 

Which contained roughly 50 million people is, I think, roughly the size of the game map.

 

But perhaps the game map is more lightly populated, it'd make sense. So let us assume, heck, I'll be generous and say an overall population of thirteen million. With the examples presented, if one wished to raise a professional army out of one hundred thousand people (a small part of the overall lands population) one would only be able to muster, based on the examples....four hundred soldiers before the upkeep breaks the bank. Which is kind of absurd.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Basilisk

[Alex Humva]

None of the prior RTS RPGs had much in the way of backstory, Power. IL was an excuse plot, Starscape had nothing, Strith was "hey alt reality 80s", Starscape II was "hey universe," Spirits and Men was the only one with any real backstory, primarily because it was driven by that.

 

I'll get to the army figures later when I figure something out.

 

Also, Basilisk, a professional army of that size today is not precisely the most common. Even the economic powerhouse that is Germany only has 182,000 professional troops active.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Strategist Alex Humva

[Havelock Vetinari]

These pages may be useful:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carthage_(c._149_BC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman-Etruscan_Wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Empire#Empire

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Those all had ready made audiences though, the same RTS RPG crowd. But if the fates of Starscape.2 and Spirits and Men indicates anything its that you can't rely on just having that crowd around, because they're either busy or not interested. You need something to make the RPG appeal to new people, find a new audience. Complacency will be your doom Humva, your dooooooooooooooooom!

[Havelock Vetinari]

Also, Basilisk, a professional army of that size today is not precisely the most common. Even the economic powerhouse that is Germany only has 182,000 professional troops active.

 

 

Germany doesn't have to worry about France deciding it'd like that land. And it'd like it right now. Not anymore at least.

 

Or dragons. Germany does not have to worry about dragons, or abominations summoned by magic.

 

EDIT: And that one hundred thousand meant the total population of a hypothetical player kingdom. Only being able to raise four hundred professional soldiers out of a nation with that population is rather...pathetic. One hundred thousand is a rough estimation (and a generous one) that a viable power would need in that day and age, heck it might be low based on some of the ancient population numbers I've seen.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Basilisk

[Alex Humva]

I believe the situation can be resolved by multiplying by ten; you know hire professional soldiers in groups of 1,000 and levies in groups of 10,000. The Persian Standing Army, before their first expansion that took Babylon, was around 10,000. Since we will be smaller than Persia even then, I'll reduce the EP upkeep to 4 EP/cycle. This means that 5,000 men, the same as a Roman Legion after you took away all the hanger-ons, will cost you 20 EP monthly to upkeep. While the height of Rome had 26 Legions under her command, one legion alone was bad news, and typically enough to cause people to run in a panic.

 

And of course you can do what every civilization, even the Romans, did: grab farmers, give them a spear, and tell them to get stabby stabby. Keep the professionals in charge to make sure they don't rout.

[Lara White]

You know, Basilisk, you keep mentioning the Persians and the Chinese and the Romans when the players, AFAIK, really are more comparable to Athens or Thebes.

 

[Havelock Vetinari]

That solves it quite nicely.

 

Oh and it turned out my estimation was.....low. As in Athens, small Greek regional power it was, had...well...

 

Look:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Athens

 

EDIT: Look at the population numbers for small old Athens Lloyd. It's larger then my estimation of one hundred thousand by....well, more then half.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Basilisk

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

If one pixel is 5 km, chances are none of those rivers are even going to be visible on that map - yes, the River Nile is 7.5 km at its widest point, but for most of its course? 1-2 km in width. The Amazon is consistently somewhat wider, yes, but it's not really a typical river. Best to do away with the (somewhat poorly-drawn on an otherwise nice map) rivers at this scale.

[Xomeron]

We need to know where they are, even if they aren't really that big. Look at a real map; they'll show the rivers even if the rivers are way too small to appear on that scale.

[Lara White]

I know I'm missing something. The earliest era (which presumably one would consult for "small, old Athens" on that page mentions that all of Greece fielded an army of 7K.

 

[Havelock Vetinari]

Wow. The lowball estimate for the Persian forces arrayed against Greece was....100,000.

 

The high one is the entire population of Athens.

 

Note to self: If you ever build that time machine, do not screw with the Persians.

 

EDIT: That was the holding force at Thermopylae actually Lloyd.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Basilisk

[Alex Humva]

Keep in mind that the Persian force of one hundred thousand was less professional army and more levies trained enough to go stabby stabby. When I talk professional armies I mean soldiers that stay soldiers, their job is killing people, they don't go back home afterwards. Most of the Persians who didn't die in that Zerg rush returned home and went back to whatever they were doing, with a couple dozen thousand hanging around as Persia's standing army.

[Xomeron]

Basilisk, notice how that's Persia you're talking about.

 

We are not Persia.

[Lara White]

@ Basilisk: I know it was. I can read, at least. But do you see my point? The whole Hellenic league fielded an army. This is multiple city-states we're talking about, presumably roughly the size of the ones the players will be runing.

 

All of them, together, fielded 7,000 men.

 

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

Funny, this world map looks pretty river-free. I do agree that knowing where the rivers are is useful, but a map for that would be drawn more like this.

 

Anyway, I'm discussing the rivers issue with Alex via PM at the moment.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Basilisk, notice how that's Persia you're talking about.

 

We are not Persia.

 

Xom, you noticed the population of Athens link I posted yes? You read all the links I posted yes?

 

I fully realize that we are not Persia. I think I made that clear with the population estimate I posted for a kingdom in this game, an estimate that turned out low when I checked out Athens, since someone else directly compared us to Athens and, I notably, did not say we were not Athens. I would think that would be clear. I was expressing how impressed I was with Perisa.

@ Basilisk: I know it was. I can read, at least. But do you see my point? The whole Hellenic league fielded an army. This is multiple city-states we're talking about, presumably roughly the size of the ones the players will be runing.

All of them, together, fielded 7,000 men.

 

 

 

As a holding force. To buy time. They were not expected to win. At all.

 

The idea that a state of 250,000 men and women can only field four hundred professional soldiers is patently absurd. Which is why I stated this. Armor does not cost that much, weapons do not cost that much. Want proof?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Salamis

 

The greeks depending on who you believe, fielded a navy about half the size of the Persian Navy. Ships, in general, cost more then a shield and a sword. Alot more. Being large constructs with massive amounts of labor involved.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Basilisk

[Xomeron]

Rover, we're thinking more on this scale. That's not the whole world on that map.

[Silvan Haven]

I think Alex covered the size issue about half a page up.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Furthermore:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon

 

Notice how it says ten thousand Athenians. Not Greeks.

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Just to point out that using the numbers for Thermopylae as an estimate for anything is probably a bad idea. That was a vanguard, remember, thrown together quickly so they could buy time for a proper army to be mustered later down the line. Plataea would be a better comparison, where the whole of Greece gathered some 80,000 men.

If you want what just one state can do, try Marathon. Athenians got themselves about 10,000 there I think

 

EDIT: Bah, ninja'd. You win this round Basilisk!

Edited November 25, 2013 by More Fierce Than Fire

[Xomeron]

Yes, Basilisk. And they were sculptors, potters, and the like.

 

But then, SPARTANS, WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?

 

I think we settled on up to 5,000 as a reasonable size for a professional army

Edited November 25, 2013 by Xomeron

[Havelock Vetinari]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plataea

 

Now this one is really interesting.

 

Gah! Adder beat me to it!

 

Frankly, the armeis we are dealing with are larger then the numbers some are defending. Much bigger. Unless of course you think the famous Greek Phalanx, a powerful force to be reckoned with, should be counted as a "poor, bad, levy".

[Xomeron]

Were they soldiers for a living?

 

No?Then they're a levy.

[Havelock Vetinari]

The RPG description said that levies are poor, bad soldiers. Everything the famous Greek Phalanx was most assuredly not.

 

What they did before they were soldiers is unimportant, how effective they are in battle is. Based on the rules presented in the RPG.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Basilisk

[Xomeron]

The RPG also stated how you could upgrade levies with extra equipment and training.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

It's still a problematic map design for the rivers - too wide on the scale shown, for one - while the map of Greece you showed gives the impression that each river is on the order of a mile or less in width, the map we've been given for this game leads one to the conclusion that each river on the map is equivalent in width to the Amazon - no tributaries, no small rivers, just bloody big rivers all the time.

[Havelock Vetinari]

The RPG also stated how you could upgrade levies with extra equipment and training.

 

Irrelevent.

 

Professional soldiers (1,000) cost 1 EP to train and 4 EP/cycle to upkeep. They are good.

Farmers-made-soldiers (10,000) cost 1 EP to train and 1 EP/cycle to upkeep. They are bad.

 

 

In the end, it doesn't matter. Making more swords or shields or armor doesn't change that final equation all that much does it? I think you are assuming quite alot Xom, and blaming me for misunderstanding the rules despite, actually reading them and not coming to a your conclusion on it, despite the rules out and out stating levies are bad.

[Xomeron]

I think you're overestimating the power of the Phalanx. I doubt they were much better than any other man you hand a spear and shield and call a soldier.

[Alex Humva]

I am upgrading levies from "bad" to "meh."

[Havelock Vetinari]

I think you're overestimating the power of the Phalanx. I doubt they were much better than any other man you hand a spear and shield and call a soldier.

 

I think you need a refresher on world history. I've given examples, sources, you've given vague assertions.

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Wait, does this mean if we establish our nation as demanding you perform military service before you count as a citizen we can basically have our levies be professional soldiers?