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Should Stone get the boot?


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Poll: Should Stone get the boot?

Should Stone be replaced with a different element if G3 happens?

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#1 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 13 2016 - 08:46 PM

You know, ever since Lewa got his rather unnecessary change to a Toa of "Jungle" in G2, I've been asking myself why him and not the Toa whose element legitimately doesn't add anything: Pohatu.

 

Now, I know the whole "Stone vs. Earth" debate goes waaaaaaaaayyyy back, but I still feel like it's never really been resolved. Just how is Stone different from Earth? And the reason I ask this is the fact that the surface of a solid planet tends to be made of rock. This is the case for all the inner planets in our solar system, and we've no reason to believe this is different anywhere else; and, in both generations of Bionicle, the terrain is clearly made of rock, just like it is here. But if Toa of Earth control the Earth, and the Earth is made of rock, how do they differ from a Toa of Stone? This isn't like Ice vs. Water, wherein the relevant Toa control the same substance in different states of matter which have different properties, because Toa of Stone and Earth would seem to control the exact same thing, just in different ways.

 

It makes sense, therefore, to have Pohatu made into a Toa of something else. In my mind, Iron seems like the most logical choice, but maybe you have better ideas than me. So, I present you with the titular question of this thread: Should Pohatu get an element change in any future generations of Bionicle?


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#2 Offline Banana Gunz

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Posted Dec 13 2016 - 09:47 PM

I tend to look at the difference as Stone being physical stone and Earth having control of earthquakes, tectonics, vibrations underground, etc. Stone controls the actual stone, Earth just works to split the ground and such. At least that's how I personally like to differentiate them.

 

But I think it firstly depends on what kind of reboot G3 would be, and if they choose to use the OG Mata. Because I can't imagine what they'd replace Onua with with. Maybe a toa of ore/crystal? I dunno.

 

If the reboot stars a new set of toa (or even the Inika/Mahri, at least personally I don't think it's as blasphemous to touch Nuparu) then I'm more than open to combining Earth and Stone and replacing it with something like lightning or crystal.

 

The difference between Earth and Stone doesn't bother me too heavily since the difference between Ice and Water is also pretty thin, it's one of those things I can just barely swallow down, but swallow it down, I do.


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#3 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 13 2016 - 10:27 PM

I tend to look at the difference as Stone being physical stone and Earth having control of earthquakes, tectonics, vibrations underground, etc. Stone controls the actual stone, Earth just works to split the ground and such. At least that's how I personally like to differentiate them.

 

But I think it firstly depends on what kind of reboot G3 would be, and if they choose to use the OG Mata. Because I can't imagine what they'd replace Onua with with. Maybe a toa of ore/crystal? I dunno.

 

If the reboot stars a new set of toa (or even the Inika/Mahri, at least personally I don't think it's as blasphemous to touch Nuparu) then I'm more than open to combining Earth and Stone and replacing it with something like lightning or crystal.

 

The difference between Earth and Stone doesn't bother me too heavily since the difference between Ice and Water is also pretty thin, it's one of those things I can just barely swallow down, but swallow it down, I do.

Onua would be totally unaffected. He's still the Toa of Earth; Pohatu is the only Toa who gets changed, and the effect is no different from Lewa's G2 change.


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#4 Offline evil_jaga_genius

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Posted Dec 13 2016 - 10:33 PM

The difference between Earth and Stone doesn't bother me too heavily since the difference between Ice and Water is also pretty thin, it's one of those things I can just barely swallow down, but swallow it down, I do.

Why are Ice and Water confusing?  Water is the sea, rivers, geysers.  Ice is snow, cold, winter.  I mean, chemically they're the same thing but as separate forms of magic/elements/whatever they're vastly different.

 

[/rant]

 

Anyway.  Maybe instead of being Stone, Pohatu could be a Toa of Dust - he could whip up sandstorms, create mirages, leech moisture out of the air and bring on heatwaves.  It's kindof like Stone but I think having him as a Toa of Dust or Desert would be cool.


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#5 Offline RahiSpeak

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Posted Dec 13 2016 - 10:35 PM

I've thought of this before, and I don't think I can come up with a better element than Iron (meaning metal in general, of course, but sounds cooler). After all, this is Bionicle, where metal is in everything. Besides for water and air, metal is so fundamental to the Bionicle universe that it ought to be a correspondingly important elemental power -- that is, one of the six main ones. And who better to make the switch than Pohatu? Certainly the only other option would be Onua (since Pohatu's and Onua's powers encroach on each other, one ought to change to make the distinction clear), but Earth is more encompassing than Stone, so Stone powers might as well be absorbed into Earth powers and Pohatu might as well be the Toa of Iron. Not only is that an improvement for Pohatu, but also for Onua, who formerly could only make earthquakes but now has some material to work with.

 

Also, I've toyed with the idea of Kopaka being the Toa of Crystal (which encompasses Ice powers and makes the distinction between water and ice clear), but for some reason I can't make the change as easily inside of my head as I can with Pohatu becoming the Toa of Iron, which seems quite natural.


Edited by RahiSpeak, Dec 13 2016 - 10:40 PM.

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#6 Offline Takametru007

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 02:01 AM

I think really that 6 elements is too much. I think they should re-format for 5 different elements, like the classical Chinese elements of Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, and Steel. I think that would be cool - next reboot, do a Far Eastern theme using only 5 heroes.


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#7 Offline The 1st Shadow

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 04:22 AM

 

Anyway.  Maybe instead of being Stone, Pohatu could be a Toa of Dust - he could whip up sandstorms, create mirages, leech moisture out of the air and bring on heatwaves.  It's kindof like Stone but I think having him as a Toa of Dust or Desert would be cool.

 

This right here would solve the problem.

 

In the event of a G3 reboot, why do the Toa have to be tied to Elements? Elemental powers can be too specific and nitpicky. Easiest way around that is to have them control their environments instead. Lewa the Toa of Jungle, Pohatu the Toa of Desert, Gali the Toa of Sea, etc. Do that, and you will never have to ask "Why are their powers so similar? We need to have these powers defined better, or else they should be replaced!" This way, they control whatever is strictly tied to their native environment. Pohatu would control sand and dust storms, Onua would control earthquakes, Tahu could control fire AND lava, Lewa could control both air and plantlife, etc., with no worries about whose power overlaps what.

 

Toa of Elements become Toa of Environments.

 

Problem solved.

 

 

Oh, and to answer the original question, no. Pohatu will always be the Toa of Stone. We love him too much to allow that. :P Unless the Environments route is taken, then everyone changes, and I see no harm in that.


Edited by The 1st Santa, Dec 14 2016 - 04:31 AM.

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#8 Offline Terton

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 07:07 AM

*
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Stone already got the boot:

 

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#9 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 07:13 AM

 

 

Anyway.  Maybe instead of being Stone, Pohatu could be a Toa of Dust - he could whip up sandstorms, create mirages, leech moisture out of the air and bring on heatwaves.  It's kindof like Stone but I think having him as a Toa of Dust or Desert would be cool.

 

 

Oh, and to answer the original question, no. Pohatu will always be the Toa of Stone. We love him too much to allow that. :P Unless the Environments route is taken, then everyone changes, and I see no harm in that.

 

Firstly, "environments" restrict the addition of more characters if Lego would decide to go that route at any point. There's only 6, maybe seven environments to go with. Second, just changing the elemental roster solves this problem with far less complication; if their powers are designed to all be different, there's nothing to question. Third, making Pohatu a Toa of Iron wouldn't do anything harmful to him, no more than making Lewa a Toa of "Jungle" harms him.


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#10 Offline Banana Gunz

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 08:03 AM

 

The difference between Earth and Stone doesn't bother me too heavily since the difference between Ice and Water is also pretty thin, it's one of those things I can just barely swallow down, but swallow it down, I do.

Why are Ice and Water confusing?  Water is the sea, rivers, geysers.  Ice is snow, cold, winter.  I mean, chemically they're the same thing but as separate forms of magic/elements/whatever they're vastly different.

 

[/rant]

 

Anyway.  Maybe instead of being Stone, Pohatu could be a Toa of Dust - he could whip up sandstorms, create mirages, leech moisture out of the air and bring on heatwaves.  It's kindof like Stone but I think having him as a Toa of Dust or Desert would be cool.

 

 

It's not really confusing, it's pretty simple actually and the elements can be used in very different ways but since they're chemically the same thing, just in different forms, they nearly feel too similar, like it would be easier to bunch them together like in The Last Airbender. It just keeps things more organized, it's hard to detach myself from real world science sometimes.

 

Toa of Desert sounds better than Toa of Dust, but I actually think it would be cool to experiment with making Pohatu a toa of lightning/electricity. His personality seems to work well with it (not his dumb G2 personality, his real personality).


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#11 Offline Pohaturon

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 09:28 AM

No.

 

Never. 

 

Don't bloody touch stone.

 

I never ever understood the confusion between stone and earth. Stone = big hard stuff, Earth = small soft-er stuff. Sure, sometimes the media doesn't reflect this, but oftentimes the media isn't representative of the canon.

 

Pohatu's powers involve ensuring the contact between a big stone and whoever he doesn't like, as well as manipulating stones. stones .

 

Onua can cause tremors, earthquakes, yadda yadda.

 

There was plenty in G1 that could be addressed in a reboot. There is plenty that G2 didn't address, and it added a boatload more. The six base elements, however, are not among these. Switching Air to Jungle was a profoundly stupid thing to do, and fiddling with the already perfect formula of '01 will only ever make things worse.

 

also:

 

 

I think really that 6 elements is too much. I think they should re-format for 5 different elements, like the classical Chinese elements of Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, and Steel. I think that would be cool - next reboot, do a Far Eastern theme using only 5 heroes.

 

That would not even be remotely Bionicle. That's CCBS Ninjago. Far Eastern is way overdone in fiction, whereas polynesian/maori themes are severely underrepresented. 

 

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#12 Offline Kopekemaster

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 10:40 AM

uh hum let me learn you n00b

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Stone powers let you control rock above ground, Earth powers let you control rock underground. Big difference.

 

I'm being sarcastic of course, I thoroughly agree. I've understood the difference between the two, but it always just seemed such a minor difference and seemed like a waste making another element just to separate them (for whatever reason).

 

Edit: That being said, I should clarify that I don't think Stone should be abandoned in any possible future Bionicle reboot. It's been there from the start, so getting rid of it would be weird. I just think it's odd they put it in in the first place.


Edited by Kopekemaster, Dec 14 2016 - 02:19 PM.

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#13 Offline Toa Smoke Monster

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 12:32 PM

I voted no to stone being replaced. I see the points raised in other posts regarding stone and earth being similar, and they make sense. But I would prefer a Gen 3 Pohatu, if he is in a possible reboot, to retain his elemental powers of stone. It's just a personal preference, nothing more.


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#14 Offline Toa Imrukii

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 12:40 PM

No. Just no.

Stone is a fine Element. Just leave it be.

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#15 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 02:32 PM

No.

 

Never. 

 

Don't bloody touch stone.

 

I never ever understood the confusion between stone and earth. Stone = big hard stuff, Earth = small soft-er stuff. Sure, sometimes the media doesn't reflect this, but oftentimes the media isn't representative of the canon.

 

Pohatu's powers involve ensuring the contact between a big stone and whoever he doesn't like, as well as manipulating stones. stones .

 

Onua can cause tremors, earthquakes, yadda yadda.

 

There was plenty in G1 that could be addressed in a reboot. There is plenty that G2 didn't address, and it added a boatload more. The six base elements, however, are not among these. Switching Air to Jungle was a profoundly stupid thing to do, and fiddling with the already perfect formula of '01 will only ever make things worse.

:kakama:

'01's formula wasn't "perfect." As I explained in the OP, Earth and Stone are the exact same stuff. The ground is rock. If Toa of Earth can cause earthquakes, as you describe and as is done numerous times, they're controlling rock in some capacity. That's what earthquakes are--moving slabs of rock. Replacing Air with Jungle was a bad change not because it differed from G1, but because it didn't serve a real purpose other than pleasing the focus groups. It added nothing. Making Pohatu a Toa of Iron adds a meaningful range of abilities to the main cast. If there's still a desire to have him control rocks and sand, then the geology of whatever planet G3 is on can be elaborated on to this end. Mars has iron on its surface; just specifying that the sand and ground in certain parts of the world is rich in iron solves that problem. There are no real downsides.


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#16 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 03:03 PM

Firstly, "environments" restrict the addition of more characters if Lego would decide to go that route at any point. There's only 6, maybe seven environments to go with. Second, just changing the elemental roster solves this problem with far less complication; if their powers are designed to all be different, there's nothing to question. Third, making Pohatu a Toa of Iron wouldn't do anything harmful to him, no more than making Lewa a Toa of "Jungle" harms him.


Making Pohatu a Toa of Iron/Metal would create some complications in a story set in a tropical island setting like Mata Nui or Okoto since there's not a lot of naturally occurring metal to theme his environment around. Metallic ore deposits are a thing, sure, but they're just as much stone or earth as they are metal, so it wouldn't clear up the confusion about characters' elements overlapping. What's more, metallic ore deposits are generally more associated with underground than with deserts, so if anything it would make more sense to give Onua that element than Pohatu.

While I'd love to see some Toa with more varied elements like Metal or Lightning (as long as it doesn't get into super contrived territory like Psionics or Magnetism), I'm not sure whether either of those elements could really take the place of Stone in terms of the character traits and environments associated with it. Air to Jungle/Plantlife was an easy change to make because air characters were already heavily associated with jungles and plants even in G1, and even the last couple years of G1 had established a precedent for Jungle taking Air's place.

I'm also not sure if the vague sense of overlap between Earth and Stone is something that totally needs to be cleared up. Pokémon has had separate Rock and Ground types from the very beginning, and the distinctions between those types are not entirely unlike in Bionicle. Rock includes mostly moves like Rock Throw, Rock Tomb, and Stone Edge associated with hard or sharp stones (as well as Sandstorm, a power heavily associated with stone in Bionicle G2), while Ground includes more moves like Fissure, Earthquake, Mud Slap, and Dig associated with loose earth or seismic activity.

There are some places where the powers associated with the different Pokémon types are fuzzier (for instance, the move Sand Tomb is Ground-type since it was originally defined as digging a hole to trap the opponent in quicksand, but was later redefined as trapping the opponent in a sandstorm). But ultimately nothing's really gained by overthinking it — it's better to let the franchise show what each type/element can do than to try and explain it in any kind of clear-cut scientific terms.
 

Replacing Air with Jungle was a bad change not because it differed from G1, but because it didn't serve a real purpose other than pleasing the focus groups. It added nothing.


I disagree about it adding nothing. I think giving replacing Air with Jungle in both G1 and G2 had some definite positive effects. It made their coloration and environment make more sense, and made it easier for characters like Gresh or Protector of Jungle to "wear" their element. Incorporating characters' elements (rather than just colors representing those elements) more visibly into those characters' designs is something I loved about both the Bara Magna and Okoto arcs, and the jungle characters were a great example of that. Before that switch, it was easy for kids to look at the original Tahu or Gali or Kopaka and guess their powers and elemental theme whether or not they knew the story, but the same couldn't be said for Lewa. I don't think that was an insignificant concern.

Edited by Aanchir, Dec 14 2016 - 03:20 PM.

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#17 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 03:36 PM

 

Firstly, "environments" restrict the addition of more characters if Lego would decide to go that route at any point. There's only 6, maybe seven environments to go with. Second, just changing the elemental roster solves this problem with far less complication; if their powers are designed to all be different, there's nothing to question. Third, making Pohatu a Toa of Iron wouldn't do anything harmful to him, no more than making Lewa a Toa of "Jungle" harms him.


Making Pohatu a Toa of Iron/Metal would create some complications in a story set in a tropical island setting like Mata Nui or Okoto since there's not a lot of naturally occurring metal to theme his environment around. Metallic ore deposits are a thing, sure, but they're just as much stone or earth as they are metal, so it wouldn't clear up the confusion about characters' elements overlapping. What's more, metallic ore deposits are generally more associated with underground than with deserts, so if anything it would make more sense to give Onua that element than Pohatu.

While I'd love to see some Toa with more varied elements like Metal or Lightning (as long as it doesn't get into super contrived territory like Psionics or Magnetism), I'm not sure whether either of those elements could really take the place of Stone in terms of the character traits and environments associated with it. Air to Jungle/Plantlife was an easy change to make because air characters were already heavily associated with jungles and plants even in G1, and even the last couple years of G1 had established a precedent for Jungle taking Air's place.

I'm also not sure if the vague sense of overlap between Earth and Stone is something that totally needs to be cleared up. Pokémon has had separate Rock and Ground types from the very beginning, and the distinctions between those types are not entirely unlike in Bionicle. Rock includes mostly moves like Rock Throw, Rock Tomb, and Stone Edge associated with hard or sharp stones (as well as Sandstorm, a power heavily associated with stone in Bionicle G2), while Ground includes more moves like Fissure, Earthquake, Mud Slap, and Dig associated with loose earth or seismic activity.

There are some places where the powers associated with the different Pokémon types are fuzzier (for instance, the move Sand Tomb is Ground-type since it was originally defined as digging a hole to trap the opponent in quicksand, but was later redefined as trapping the opponent in a sandstorm). But ultimately nothing's really gained by overthinking it — it's better to let the franchise show what each type/element can do than to try and explain it in any kind of clear-cut scientific terms.

This isn't isn't about science. Bionicle is fantasy, and in that respect, it doesn't need to be explained on all fronts. This is about just making sense. If Toa of Earth are gonna have the powers they do, then they control the exact same stuff in the exact same state of matter as Toa of Stone. There is no way to define it so that it makes sense. They're the same thing, but in different places; how does that make them different elements?

 

The comparison to Pokemon isn't valid because Pokemon doesn't have elements. "Flying" and "Bug" aren't elements, but attributes. They don't control substances or aspects of their world, they just have superpowers. "Rock" and "Ground," therefore, create no such logistical problems as we see in Bionicle, where it's a matter of being able to manipulate tangible, physical stuff. That's why Psionics is such a nonsensical element; it's not a thing, it's an abstract concept of neurological activity.

 

Environments aren't at all problematic for a Toa of Iron on a "tropical" island. For one, Mata Nui and Okoto both have a wide range of biomes that greatly differ from each other. The island is no more tropical than it is polar or a desert. Even so, Toa have the power to create their element. It's this capability that allows Tahu's powers to be a thing. Fire isn't just lying around everywhere. In order to make something heat up or combust, he needs to pull heat energy out of nowhere; which he does with ease. Perhaps, then, Pohatu gets the same edge--he has to make his element where he's unable to just tear it out of the ground, but he gets that capability.

 

 

Replacing Air with Jungle was a bad change not because it differed from G1, but because it didn't serve a real purpose other than pleasing the focus groups. It added nothing.


I disagree about it adding nothing. I think giving replacing Air with Jungle in both G1 and G2 had some definite positive effects. It made their coloration and environment make more sense, and made it easier for characters like Gresh or Protector of Jungle to "wear" their element. Incorporating characters' elements (rather than just colors representing those elements) more visibly into those characters' designs is something I loved about both the Bara Magna and Okoto arcs, and the jungle characters were a great example of that. Before that switch, it was easy for kids to look at the original Tahu or Gali or Kopaka and guess their powers and elemental theme whether or not they knew the story, but the same couldn't be said for Lewa. I don't think that was an insignificant concern.

 

Incorporating an "Air" aesthetic into a design is not difficult. Flowing patterns that emulate wind movement, wing-like structures, and the like can work to the same end as adding vines. It's not really harder than invoking a "Water" aesthetic.


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#18 Offline The 1st Shadow

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 04:04 PM

Firstly, "environments" restrict the addition of more characters if Lego would decide to go that route at any point. There's only 6, maybe seven environments to go with.

 

It wouldn't restrict the introduction of more characters at all. You could introduce tons of characters within each Environment. And while it would limit the Toa to six characters, you could still have other environments. One thing that people complained about in G1 was an over-abundance of elements. Environments would benefit that issue by giving each character a wider range of abilities without having to introduce new characters to represent an individual element.

 

Let's see what we've got:

 

  • Desert--Pohatu
  • Tundra--Kopaka
  • Sea--Gali
  • Jungle--Lewa
  • Earth/Underground--Onua
  • Volcano--Tahu

And now, let's see what else we can use:

  • Air--a floating city in the sky
  • Mountain--Although this one might intrude upon Onua's  and Tahu's abilities, so maybe not
  • Space--could include powers like vaccuum and gravity
  • Industrial--controls metal and electricity
  • And it wouldn't be hard to develop an environment based on darkness and shadow

 

That's eleven different environments. You could use Swamp, but that might overlap Jungle and Sea. The Mixels theme used some of these ideas, so it's not out of the question for Bionicle to borrow them. Also, don't tell me that people haven't been begging for a Bionicle Space story. If the concept of environments were used, then it's be less of a stretch to include something like that. There is literally no downside to using Environments instead of Elements. Each Toa would still control their original basic element, along with some other abilities that set them apart from anyone similar. You'd no longer have to worry about Earth and Stone overlapping, Water and Ice, Fire/Electricity and Plasma, etc. 

 

 Second, just changing the elemental roster solves this problem with far less complication; if their powers are designed to all be different, there's nothing to question. Third, making Pohatu a Toa of Iron wouldn't do anything harmful to him, no more than making Lewa a Toa of "Jungle" harms him.

 

How is my idea any different from yours? It IS changing the power roster, and provides no complication. Desert and Earth/Underground are vastly different. Like you said, there's nothing to question. 


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#19 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 05:54 PM

This isn't isn't about science. Bionicle is fantasy, and in that respect, it doesn't need to be explained on all fronts. This is about just making sense. If Toa of Earth are gonna have the powers they do, then they control the exact same stuff in the exact same state of matter as Toa of Stone. There is no way to define it so that it makes sense. They're the same thing, but in different places; how does that make them different elements?


If it's not about science, then there's no need to make "the exact same state of matter" a sticking point. A clump of soil and a chunk of granite may be chemically similar. They may both be dry solids. However, one is obviously in a different form than the other. Why can't that be enough to differentiate them? It can't be that one can turn into the other, because the same is true of water and ice — the conditions for that transformation are just different.
 

Environments aren't at all problematic for a Toa of Iron on a "tropical" island. For one, Mata Nui and Okoto both have a wide range of biomes that greatly differ from each other. The island is no more tropical than it is polar or a desert.


The ice regions of Mata Nui and Okoto are established to be glaciers, not polar regions. Tropical glaciers aren't something Bionicle made up, they exist in real life, including on islands like New Guinea. The idea of a tropical glacier reaching all the way to the coast may be artistic license, but I don't think it's grounds to say that Mata Nui is not intended to be tropical.

Likewise, tropical deserts exist in real life, like the Atacama Desert in South America. I don't know any tropical island deserts in real life, but that has as much to do with the word "island" as the word "tropical". Most islands that aren't frigid cold like Iceland are simply too humid to support deserts.

If you're still not convinced, there is various official story material (including the BionicleStory.com Universe page) that specifically describes Mata Nui as "tropical".
 

Even so, Toa have the power to create their element. It's this capability that allows Tahu's powers to be a thing. Fire isn't just lying around everywhere. In order to make something heat up or combust, he needs to pull heat energy out of nowhere; which he does with ease. Perhaps, then, Pohatu gets the same edge--he has to make his element where he's unable to just tear it out of the ground, but he gets that capability.


Obviously no Toa needs their element to be naturally occurring in order to use it, and I never suggested otherwise. My point was that in the Mata Nui and Okoto story arcs, each Toa and their people lived in an environment that in some way reflected their element. It wouldn't make any sense for Pohatu and his corresponding tribe to be the only ones whose native environment and element have no obvious connection. The fire tribe lives in a volcano? Sure, that fits! The water tribe lives on/in a bay? Makes sense! The ice tribe lives on a glacier? I don't see why not. The metal tribe lives in a… desert? I think you and I can agree that the connection there is a lot more strained.
 

Incorporating an "Air" aesthetic into a design is not difficult. Flowing patterns that emulate wind movement, wing-like structures, and the like can work to the same end as adding vines. It's not really harder than invoking a "Water" aesthetic.


Perhaps. I certainly don't think that giving characters or environments an air-themed design is impossible, but I do think that giving them a jungle-themed design is both simpler and more effective (especially with characters or groups of characters who are already characterized by wearing green and living in jungles). I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited by Aanchir, Dec 14 2016 - 05:55 PM.

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#20 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 07:24 PM

 

How is my idea any different from yours? It IS changing the power roster, and provides no complication. Desert and Earth/Underground are vastly different. Like you said, there's nothing to question. 

 Second, just changing the elemental roster solves this problem with far less complication; if their powers are designed to all be different, there's nothing to question. Third, making Pohatu a Toa of Iron wouldn't do anything harmful to him, no more than making Lewa a Toa of "Jungle" harms him.

You're suggesting to change what the powers actually are. What you prescribe is a far greater change than what I'm proposing. Such drastic measures to reach the same end simply aren't needed.

 

 

This isn't isn't about science. Bionicle is fantasy, and in that respect, it doesn't need to be explained on all fronts. This is about just making sense. If Toa of Earth are gonna have the powers they do, then they control the exact same stuff in the exact same state of matter as Toa of Stone. There is no way to define it so that it makes sense. They're the same thing, but in different places; how does that make them different elements?


If it's not about science, then there's no need to make "the exact same state of matter" a sticking point. A clump of soil and a chunk of granite may be chemically similar. They may both be dry solids. However, one is obviously in a different form than the other. Why can't that be enough to differentiate them? It can't be that one can turn into the other, because the same is true of water and ice — the conditions for that transformation are just different.
 

Even so, Toa have the power to create their element. It's this capability that allows Tahu's powers to be a thing. Fire isn't just lying around everywhere. In order to make something heat up or combust, he needs to pull heat energy out of nowhere; which he does with ease. Perhaps, then, Pohatu gets the same edge--he has to make his element where he's unable to just tear it out of the ground, but he gets that capability.


Obviously no Toa needs their element to be naturally occurring in order to use it, and I never suggested otherwise. My point was that in the Mata Nui and Okoto story arcs, each Toa and their people lived in an environment that in some way reflected their element. It wouldn't make any sense for Pohatu and his corresponding tribe to be the only ones whose native environment and element have no obvious connection. The fire tribe lives in a volcano? Sure, that fits! The water tribe lives on/in a bay? Makes sense! The ice tribe lives on a glacier? I don't see why not. The metal tribe lives in a… desert? I think you and I can agree that the connection there is a lot more strained.

I brought up state of matter because that makes them effectively the exact same substance. Ice and water do different things and have different properties; including their state of matter. Snow and ice are the same stuff, just in different conditions; yet Kopaka can control them both. The difference between sand and a tectonic plate is much the same, so what exactly differentiates them if the same difference clearly has no effect on Ice?

 

If the Iron tribe lives in a desert, then the desert can be like the surface of Mars, wherein the soil (or, in this case, sand) contains iron. That would actually be really neat from an artistic standpoint because then it could be a red desert, which makes the setting more unique and fantastical. Perhaps the faces of the cliffs and plateaus of he region contain giant deposits of iron. It's not like that information would be hard to impart to kids, either; all you have to say is "there's iron in the sand and the rocks here," and they can probably grasp it.


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#21 Offline The 1st Shadow

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 07:51 PM

 

 

How is my idea any different from yours? It IS changing the power roster, and provides no complication. Desert and Earth/Underground are vastly different. Like you said, there's nothing to question. 

 Second, just changing the elemental roster solves this problem with far less complication; if their powers are designed to all be different, there's nothing to question. Third, making Pohatu a Toa of Iron wouldn't do anything harmful to him, no more than making Lewa a Toa of "Jungle" harms him.

You're suggesting to change what the powers actually are. What you prescribe is a far greater change than what I'm proposing. Such drastic measures to reach the same end simply aren't needed.

No, I'm actually not. You're misinterpreting it. 

 

Let's look at Onua as an example. In both G1 and G2, Onua and the Earth villagers inhabit the underground, and his powerset allows him to manipulate the ground, cause earthquakes, and sense vibrations through the body of earth itself. What I'm proposing would give him the exact same set of abilities, just under a different name.

 

Let's try Tahu now. In G1 and G2, Tahu controlled heat and flame, was resistant to lava, and his people lived in a volcanic region. He would still retain the powers of Fire--no change--except for now having control over lava. Other than that, the only thing changing is the NAME of the Element. We stop calling it "Fire" and say "Volcano," while retaining all those abilities we saw before.

 

Lewa did the same in G2. He started out as a Toa of Air, but G2 turned him into a Toa of Jungle. This didn't remove his air-related abilities, as his bios, the books, and Journey to One showed him still controlling air, to a limited extent. That said, LEGO already did exactly what I'm proposing, just with an element other than Stone.

 

Which brings me to Pohatu. G2 described him as a Toa of Stone, but what did his powers involve? Strength, controlling sandstorms, and manipulation of large chunks of rock. Deserts are full of sand, and often peppered with intricate rock formations. Calling him a Toa of Desert would retain every single power he already has, but we'd be changing the name of it. The reason for this is that "Stone" and "Earth" are such vague terms. Describing the elemental powers by their environment removes the confusion without changing what the powers are or how they work.

 

tl:dr-- The powers are not changing. The name of the power is different to accommodate the confusion over what each term means.

 

Does that make sense?


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#22 Offline RTibe

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 08:00 PM

The frustration at Lewa becoming a Toa of Jungle has always rung a bit hollow, to me - the only solid case I've seen leveled against it is "it's a change to something I'm nostalgic for", but that's a limitation of the speaker, not a flaw in the subject. While having elemental power does feel like a core aspect of Lewa, I honestly don't see how having that power be plantlife over air diminishes him. Most of the personality tropes tied into Air also play well with Jungle, and hey, he's a green guy with an axe who swings from vine to vine and lives in a tree - does that say "air" or "jungle" to you?

Seguing into the topic - since Jungle fits Lewa well, and Stone v Earth is... ehhhh, I'd be all for Pohatu becoming the Toa of Air. Think about it - besides sand, deserts are famous for their winds. Hot gusts, dust devils, the freezing nighttime breeze, ferocious sandstorms... That, and the sand adds a nice visual component to the wind. Pohatu, master of the scorching desert wind, Pohatu, master of the frigid midnight zephyr, Pohatu, master of the hungry sandstorm!

 

I'd be all over that.


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#23 Offline SailorQuaoar

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Posted Dec 14 2016 - 09:02 PM

I'm gonna agree with Sir Keksalot in that stone is redundant with earth as its own element. However, it could be a subset of earth, or earth and air could combine to make Sand.

 

Afterman has only 8 elements (fire, water earth, air, ice, lightning, plantlife, and iron), but some elements can be combined to make others. Sound is a subset of air, psychic powers are an offshoot of lightning, Plasma is lightning + iron, magnetism is lighting + iron, acid is water + plantlife, etc.

 

Having advanced techniques can be a way to introduce variety into Toa abilities without making every single power into its own element.


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#24 Offline Xboxtravis

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 01:28 AM

 

Environments aren't at all problematic for a Toa of Iron on a "tropical" island. For one, Mata Nui and Okoto both have a wide range of biomes that greatly differ from each other. The island is no more tropical than it is polar or a desert.


The ice regions of Mata Nui and Okoto are established to be glaciers, not polar regions. Tropical glaciers aren't something Bionicle made up, they exist in real life, including on islands like New Guinea. The idea of a tropical glacier reaching all the way to the coast may be artistic license, but I don't think it's grounds to say that Mata Nui is not intended to be tropical.

Likewise, tropical deserts exist in real life, like the Atacama Desert in South America. I don't know any tropical island deserts in real life, but that has as much to do with the word "island" as the word "tropical". Most islands that aren't frigid cold like Iceland are simply too humid to support deserts.

If you're still not convinced, there is various official story material (including the BionicleStory.com Universe page) that specifically describes Mata Nui as "tropical".
 

 

Since I lived (relatively) near the Atacama Desert for a while I can say this; environment easily changes based on altitude. On the Argentina side of the Andes where I was at, the low altitudes were actually sub tropical areas. Mangos and papayas growing in people's backyards, sugar cane growing in fields; etc. However only a few miles (a trip an hour or two long via car) from these cities the altitude changes affected the environment drastically. One of the towns (I never got to visit but I would love to if I ever go back) known as Cafayate was surrounded by a red rock desert. Further up in altitude and eventually the true Atacama Desert area began; with salt flats, mountains, and even glaciers trapped on the peaks of the Andes. From my understanding the Chile side of the Andes is %100 desert all the way down from the mountains to the coast.

 

So what does that have to do with Bionicle? Well it is very reasonable to assume that Mata-Nui was mimicking somewhat realistic island geography. It is easy to imagine that all of Le-Koro, Ta-Koro and Ga-Koro are tropical climates (the only reason Ta-Koro is not green due to the active volcano). Ko-Koro could easily exist if Mt. Ihu was high enough (although the thought of snow all the way to the base of the island is a bit far fetched). Onu-Koro and Po-Koro could easily be deserts similar to the Atacama.

 

Sorry for the long winded geography rant... Back to the original subject? Should Stone be removed? Well hard to say, although I have a secret for you all. Kopaka is probably a Toa of Stone too. Because technically speaking, ice is actually a rock according to the government (especially if it is part of a glacier): https://www2.usgs.go...ories/9750/3470


Edited by Xboxtravis, Dec 15 2016 - 01:29 AM.

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#25 Offline Tessiln the Mask Maker

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 04:58 PM

I would suppose that all Pohatu's possible elements would need to be defined in order to resolve this debate. So here are the definitions of the elements:

Stone

Sand

Iron

Gravity

Just for the sake of argument, here's the definition of Earth:

Earth


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#26 Offline Millennium

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 06:35 PM

Dang, I voted no, but I actually wanted to vote yes.

 

If a G3 does ever happen, and I hope it does not...let's say we'll have a new elements-driven universe...it should be like it's in the Avatar universe: fire, water, air, earth.

 

What's up with Lego and 6 anyways?


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#27 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 07:45 PM

I would suppose that all Pohatu's possible elements would need to be defined in order to resolve this debate. So here are the definitions of the elements:

Stone

Sand

Iron

Gravity

Just for the sake of argument, here's the definition of Earth:

Earth

I don't feel as if this is necessary, since we're talking about building a new set of elements from scratch. This thread is founded on the very premise of changing what the elements are and how they're defined for the purpose of having them make more sense.

 

Dang, I voted no, but I actually wanted to vote yes.

 

If a G3 does ever happen, and I hope it does not...let's say we'll have a new elements-driven universe...it should be like it's in the Avatar universe: fire, water, air, earth.

 

What's up with Lego and 6 anyways?

6 must be a good number for marketing purposes. Besides, we're kind of stuck with 6, since eliminating any of the main cast would be like making a generation of Transformers without Optimus.


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#28 Offline Pohaturon

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 08:05 PM

I really think nitpicking stone vs earth is about as logical as nitpicking ice vs water would be, yet I see no "get rid of ice as an element" threads anywhere. Neither make sense in a scientific way, but the lore - as convoluted as it is - has made the distinctions between them very clear. Onua generally does stuff with stuff under the surface, while Pohatu does stuff with stuff on and over it. Sure, in essence, it's dumb, but then if we get down to this level, all of Bionicle is. 

Simply from a 'rule of cool' standpoint, I believe Stone should be kept a separate element. Stone powers involve the tossing about of big jagged rocks, while Earth powers are more about tremors and quakes and mud. Sure, we can all argue that all of these technically fall under the same substance, but again, ice vs. water. 

 

Maybe the original 6 elements don't make the most sense when thinking about it. Maybe reshuffling them and replacing a few would make more sense from a purely scientific standpoint. 

 

Maybe some of us prefer the dynamic of the original six elements to be undisturbed and would prefer not to overthink something that falls apart in pretty much every aspect when overthunk.

 

I don't care stone doesn't make sense. Stone is cool. Leave stone alone. 

 

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#29 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 08:15 PM

What's up with Lego and 6 anyways?

6 must be a good number for marketing purposes. Besides, we're kind of stuck with 6, since eliminating any of the main cast would be like making a generation of Transformers without Optimus.


When Bionicle was first starting out they were originally going to have just four Toa; from what I've heard they added two more because six Toa better lined up with their production capacity at the time.

They don't always go with six, though — Knights' Kingdom, Exo-Force, and Ninjago all started out with teams of four main protagonists plus their mentor character, and Friends, Elves, and Nexo Knights each have five main protagonists. The team size in Hero Factory started at six for the first two years before going up to nine in 2012 and then stabilizing at seven for the last two years.

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#30 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 09:27 PM

I really think nitpicking stone vs earth is about as logical as nitpicking ice vs water would be, yet I see no "get rid of ice as an element" threads anywhere. Neither make sense in a scientific way, but the lore - as convoluted as it is - has made the distinctions between them very clear. Onua generally does stuff with stuff under the surface, while Pohatu does stuff with stuff on and over it. Sure, in essence, it's dumb, but then if we get down to this level, all of Bionicle is. 

Simply from a 'rule of cool' standpoint, I believe Stone should be kept a separate element. Stone powers involve the tossing about of big jagged rocks, while Earth powers are more about tremors and quakes and mud. Sure, we can all argue that all of these technically fall under the same substance, but again, ice vs. water. 

 

Maybe the original 6 elements don't make the most sense when thinking about it. Maybe reshuffling them and replacing a few would make more sense from a purely scientific standpoint. 

 

Maybe some of us prefer the dynamic of the original six elements to be undisturbed and would prefer not to overthink something that falls apart in pretty much every aspect when overthunk.

 

I don't care stone doesn't make sense. Stone is cool. Leave stone alone. 

 

:kakama:

The reason Stone doesn't make sense as being different from Earth is that there's no real distinction between the two other than location. It's not because they're the same substance; like you said, Ice vs. Water. But Stone is just rock that's not attached to the rock that falls under the category of Earth. It's not about science. Bionicle is fantasy and doesn't have to abide by physical laws; if it did, the premise would just collapse. But the difference between Stone and Earth is a detail that makes some of the least sense in all of Bionicle. Location or attachment to more of itself is not a property of a substance from any perspective, even one that doesn't operate on science. This isn't overthinking, this is just common sense.

 

 

 

What's up with Lego and 6 anyways?

6 must be a good number for marketing purposes. Besides, we're kind of stuck with 6, since eliminating any of the main cast would be like making a generation of Transformers without Optimus.

 


When Bionicle was first starting out they were originally going to have just four Toa; from what I've heard they added two more because six Toa better lined up with their production capacity at the time.

They don't always go with six, though — Knights' Kingdom, Exo-Force, and Ninjago all started out with teams of four main protagonists plus their mentor character, and Friends, Elves, and Nexo Knights each have five main protagonists. The team size in Hero Factory started at six for the first two years before going up to nine in 2012 and then stabilizing at seven for the last two years.

 

If 7 is the ideal number, then that makes adding Takanuva to the main cast a simple feat. Not saying he should be in the same situation as the other Toa or that there should be a light tribe, just that he could join the normal-sized sets pretty easily. And that's something I really think Lego should do because he's one of the franchise's more iconic characters, and dare I say even one of the most beloved. Don't quote me on that, though. I don't actually know who the most popular characters are besides Matoro because he died for our sins.


Edited by Sir Keksalot, Dec 15 2016 - 09:28 PM.

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#31 Offline evil_jaga_genius

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 09:50 PM

If 7 is the ideal number, then that makes adding Takanuva to the main cast a simple feat. Not saying he should be in the same situation as the other Toa or that there should be a light tribe, just that he could join the normal-sized sets pretty easily. And that's something I really think Lego should do because he's one of the franchise's more iconic characters, and dare I say even one of the most beloved. Don't quote me on that, though. I don't actually know who the most popular characters are besides Matoro because he died for our sins.

If 7 is indeed the magic number: Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Lightning, Ice, Jungle.  That's the set of elements I'm going with for my Malkhar world.  Though for Malkhar I have Metal, Earth, and Stone all merged together into one element of Earth.  Earth sortof encompasses all minerals, metallic or otherwise.  I would shy away from an element of Metal or Iron in Bionicle, though, simply because everything's made out of metal and a Toa with telepathic control over it would be ludicrously overpowered.

 

Takanuva would make a great Toa of Lightning though.  Alter the Vo-colors to be gold and white (possibly blue as well, to accompany his blue Pakari).  He could create blinding lightning flashes (or illusory ones), do all sorts of cool stuff with electronics, ride lightning bolts for bursts of mach speed.  Maybe he could even turn into a lightning bolt himself and use it to warp through metal.  That'd be awesome.


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#32 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 15 2016 - 10:26 PM

 

If 7 is the ideal number, then that makes adding Takanuva to the main cast a simple feat. Not saying he should be in the same situation as the other Toa or that there should be a light tribe, just that he could join the normal-sized sets pretty easily. And that's something I really think Lego should do because he's one of the franchise's more iconic characters, and dare I say even one of the most beloved. Don't quote me on that, though. I don't actually know who the most popular characters are besides Matoro because he died for our sins.

If 7 is indeed the magic number: Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Lightning, Ice, Jungle.  That's the set of elements I'm going with for my Malkhar world.  Though for Malkhar I have Metal, Earth, and Stone all merged together into one element of Earth.  Earth sortof encompasses all minerals, metallic or otherwise.  I would shy away from an element of Metal or Iron in Bionicle, though, simply because everything's made out of metal and a Toa with telepathic control over it would be ludicrously overpowered.

 

Takanuva would make a great Toa of Lightning though.  Alter the Vo-colors to be gold and white (possibly blue as well, to accompany his blue Pakari).  He could create blinding lightning flashes (or illusory ones), do all sorts of cool stuff with electronics, ride lightning bolts for bursts of mach speed.  Maybe he could even turn into a lightning bolt himself and use it to warp through metal.  That'd be awesome.

 

Metal wouldn't have to be OP because the Matoran and Toa could be made of some artificial/fictitious substance, like Protodermis.

 

Light is just as valid an element as Lightning. The change wouldn't have to be made. If you want Lightning to be part of the main roster...

4c6a57ae5ab1e80875a8512d0a79bfaedaeed445


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#33 Offline Logan McOwen

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 07:42 AM

Surely if Stone is similar to Earth in that earth essentially consists of rocky materials, Earth is the element that should be replaced? I can see Onua being a Toa of Gravity, for example. Also, how is Iron the logical or natural choice to swap Pohatu to? I really don't see it. Surely something like Sand (his sandstorms in G2) or Speed (the Kakama in G1) would make more sense, considering his home environment and colouration? Or maybe go with my idea and redub Onua and leave Pohatu as the Toa of Stone.


Edited by Logan McOwen, Dec 16 2016 - 07:43 AM.

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#34 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 11:27 AM

I really think nitpicking stone vs earth is about as logical as nitpicking ice vs water would be, yet I see no "get rid of ice as an element" threads anywhere. Neither make sense in a scientific way, but the lore - as convoluted as it is - has made the distinctions between them very clear. Onua generally does stuff with stuff under the surface, while Pohatu does stuff with stuff on and over it. Sure, in essence, it's dumb, but then if we get down to this level, all of Bionicle is. 

Simply from a 'rule of cool' standpoint, I believe Stone should be kept a separate element. Stone powers involve the tossing about of big jagged rocks, while Earth powers are more about tremors and quakes and mud. Sure, we can all argue that all of these technically fall under the same substance, but again, ice vs. water. 
 
Maybe the original 6 elements don't make the most sense when thinking about it. Maybe reshuffling them and replacing a few would make more sense from a purely scientific standpoint. 
 
Maybe some of us prefer the dynamic of the original six elements to be undisturbed and would prefer not to overthink something that falls apart in pretty much every aspect when overthunk.
 
I don't care stone doesn't make sense. Stone is cool. Leave stone alone. 
 
:kakama:

The reason Stone doesn't make sense as being different from Earth is that there's no real distinction between the two other than location. It's not because they're the same substance; like you said, Ice vs. Water. But Stone is just rock that's not attached to the rock that falls under the category of Earth. It's not about science. Bionicle is fantasy and doesn't have to abide by physical laws; if it did, the premise would just collapse. But the difference between Stone and Earth is a detail that makes some of the least sense in all of Bionicle. Location or attachment to more of itself is not a property of a substance from any perspective, even one that doesn't operate on science. This isn't overthinking, this is just common sense.
 

What's up with Lego and 6 anyways?

6 must be a good number for marketing purposes. Besides, we're kind of stuck with 6, since eliminating any of the main cast would be like making a generation of Transformers without Optimus.


When Bionicle was first starting out they were originally going to have just four Toa; from what I've heard they added two more because six Toa better lined up with their production capacity at the time.

They don't always go with six, though — Knights' Kingdom, Exo-Force, and Ninjago all started out with teams of four main protagonists plus their mentor character, and Friends, Elves, and Nexo Knights each have five main protagonists. The team size in Hero Factory started at six for the first two years before going up to nine in 2012 and then stabilizing at seven for the last two years.

If 7 is the ideal number, then that makes adding Takanuva to the main cast a simple feat. Not saying he should be in the same situation as the other Toa or that there should be a light tribe, just that he could join the normal-sized sets pretty easily. And that's something I really think Lego should do because he's one of the franchise's more iconic characters, and dare I say even one of the most beloved. Don't quote me on that, though. I don't actually know who the most popular characters are besides Matoro because he died for our sins.


I don't know about 7 being the "ideal" number, but it's certainly hard to have more than seven main characters in a single story and still expect the audience to keep track of them all. Even in the Hero Factory Breakout arc with its 9 main characters, the corresponding TV special omitted Breez, Bulk, and Nex (and their corresponding villains) to bring the roster of protagonists back down to a more manageable six. That's not to say a story with more main characters can't work, though — the Ocean's trilogy of movies is a testament to that.

While Takanuva is one of my favorite G1 characters, I think his story was already told pretty well in Mask of Light, and I'm not sure if a reboot which loses the surprise element of "this quirky adventurer is destined to become a Toa" could maintain the same appeal. In the event of another Bionicle reboot, I wouldn't be opposed to replacing him with a different "seventh Toa", ideally a girl and possibly even with a different element like Lightning.

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#35 Offline Hidron Nuva

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 01:10 PM

I believe Earth should be replaced with a metal like Iron. It would fit the "living in the underground" thing.

Since the armors of the Bionicle are mainly made of Protodermis, a Toa of Iron wouldn't be overpowered (I guess he would be kinda like a less powerful version of Magneto from X-Men).


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#36 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 01:49 PM

Surely if Stone is similar to Earth in that earth essentially consists of rocky materials, Earth is the element that should be replaced? I can see Onua being a Toa of Gravity, for example. Also, how is Iron the logical or natural choice to swap Pohatu to? I really don't see it. Surely something like Sand (his sandstorms in G2) or Speed (the Kakama in G1) would make more sense, considering his home environment and colouration? Or maybe go with my idea and redub Onua and leave Pohatu as the Toa of Stone.

I mean, I guess Earth could be the element to get the boot. I'm not sure why it couldn't. Onua being a Toa of Gravity would certainly work with him being purple and black. My reason for keeping Earth was simply because Earth simply sounds bigger to me, if that makes any sense. Like, it's more impactful in what the name connotes.

 

I chose Iron because of the idea I had about the world's sand and soil containing iron, which would turn it red when it rusts. That, and I felt like no other elements really worked for Pohatu when I thought about him as more of a hand-to-hand type fighter than a "mage" or "warrior" archetype, like some of the other Toa would be.

 

 

 

 

I really think nitpicking stone vs earth is about as logical as nitpicking ice vs water would be, yet I see no "get rid of ice as an element" threads anywhere. Neither make sense in a scientific way, but the lore - as convoluted as it is - has made the distinctions between them very clear. Onua generally does stuff with stuff under the surface, while Pohatu does stuff with stuff on and over it. Sure, in essence, it's dumb, but then if we get down to this level, all of Bionicle is. 

Simply from a 'rule of cool' standpoint, I believe Stone should be kept a separate element. Stone powers involve the tossing about of big jagged rocks, while Earth powers are more about tremors and quakes and mud. Sure, we can all argue that all of these technically fall under the same substance, but again, ice vs. water. 
 
Maybe the original 6 elements don't make the most sense when thinking about it. Maybe reshuffling them and replacing a few would make more sense from a purely scientific standpoint. 
 
Maybe some of us prefer the dynamic of the original six elements to be undisturbed and would prefer not to overthink something that falls apart in pretty much every aspect when overthunk.
 
I don't care stone doesn't make sense. Stone is cool. Leave stone alone. 
 
:kakama:

The reason Stone doesn't make sense as being different from Earth is that there's no real distinction between the two other than location. It's not because they're the same substance; like you said, Ice vs. Water. But Stone is just rock that's not attached to the rock that falls under the category of Earth. It's not about science. Bionicle is fantasy and doesn't have to abide by physical laws; if it did, the premise would just collapse. But the difference between Stone and Earth is a detail that makes some of the least sense in all of Bionicle. Location or attachment to more of itself is not a property of a substance from any perspective, even one that doesn't operate on science. This isn't overthinking, this is just common sense.
 

 

 

What's up with Lego and 6 anyways?

6 must be a good number for marketing purposes. Besides, we're kind of stuck with 6, since eliminating any of the main cast would be like making a generation of Transformers without Optimus.

 


When Bionicle was first starting out they were originally going to have just four Toa; from what I've heard they added two more because six Toa better lined up with their production capacity at the time.

They don't always go with six, though — Knights' Kingdom, Exo-Force, and Ninjago all started out with teams of four main protagonists plus their mentor character, and Friends, Elves, and Nexo Knights each have five main protagonists. The team size in Hero Factory started at six for the first two years before going up to nine in 2012 and then stabilizing at seven for the last two years.

 

If 7 is the ideal number, then that makes adding Takanuva to the main cast a simple feat. Not saying he should be in the same situation as the other Toa or that there should be a light tribe, just that he could join the normal-sized sets pretty easily. And that's something I really think Lego should do because he's one of the franchise's more iconic characters, and dare I say even one of the most beloved. Don't quote me on that, though. I don't actually know who the most popular characters are besides Matoro because he died for our sins.

 


I don't know about 7 being the "ideal" number, but it's certainly hard to have more than seven main characters in a single story and still expect the audience to keep track of them all. Even in the Hero Factory Breakout arc with its 9 main characters, the corresponding TV special omitted Breez, Bulk, and Nex (and their corresponding villains) to bring the roster of protagonists back down to a more manageable six. That's not to say a story with more main characters can't work, though — the Ocean's trilogy of movies is a testament to that.

While Takanuva is one of my favorite G1 characters, I think his story was already told pretty well in Mask of Light, and I'm not sure if a reboot which loses the surprise element of "this quirky adventurer is destined to become a Toa" could maintain the same appeal. In the event of another Bionicle reboot, I wouldn't be opposed to replacing him with a different "seventh Toa", ideally a girl and possibly even with a different element like Lightning.

 

Takanuva's role in the plot could be radically different than in G1. He could be a mentor-type figure who teaches the Toa how to use their powers and work as a team, or an old veteran who doesn't even know the fight with such-and-such villain is going on.

 

I'm telling ya, man. Voriki. As a girl. It would work.


Edited by Sir Keksalot, Dec 16 2016 - 02:40 PM.

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#37 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 02:16 PM

Personally I'm a fan of a team of six, in part due to how easily it can be split. A team of six can pair up into three groups of two, or split into two groups of three. Growing up, the usual roster of six sets allowed me to split most sets evenly between myself and my two brothers. That's something that doesn't work quite as well with groups of four, five, or seven (excepting seventh members like Takanuva that typically occupy a different price range or product category).


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#38 Offline SailorQuaoar

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 05:04 PM

I really think nitpicking stone vs earth is about as logical as nitpicking ice vs water would be, yet I see no "get rid of ice as an element" threads anywhere. Neither make sense in a scientific way, but the lore - as convoluted as it is - has made the distinctions between them very clear.

But water is liquid and ice is solid. The elements of Ice, Water, and Air all control the same substance, just in different states (solid, liquid, gas).


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#39 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Dec 16 2016 - 10:18 PM

 

I really think nitpicking stone vs earth is about as logical as nitpicking ice vs water would be, yet I see no "get rid of ice as an element" threads anywhere. Neither make sense in a scientific way, but the lore - as convoluted as it is - has made the distinctions between them very clear.

But water is liquid and ice is solid. The elements of Ice, Water, and Air all control the same substance, just in different states (solid, liquid, gas).

 

Um... air is very definitely a different substance than water. Mind you, a Toa of Air could conceivably control clouds/steam by manipulating the air around it, but that doesn't really count as "controlling water" any more than a Toa of Earth creating an earthquake that formed a tidal wave.


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#40 Offline Valendale

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Posted Dec 20 2016 - 12:38 PM

Pohatu and and other Toa of stone are definitely fine, but sometime's I've thought it might be nice to make him the Toa of Air, since we lost that from Lewa.


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