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The Nuva Symbols


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If there is one thing I have never understood in Bionicle, it is the Nuva Symbols. Even Biosector01 doesn't explain properly the mechanisms by which they function. Can anyone here explain exactly how they work? If it helps, I have a few questions I need clarified:I know Artakha created the Symbols, but when exactly? Right at the moment when the Mata transformed into Nuva? What was the point of creating them, and what would have happened if he didn't? It seems to me he caused more harm than good when he created them.Why is it that the Nuva's elemental energies come from the Symbols, not from themselves? I think it is a huge weakness to have to rely on the Symbols for elemental powers. Biosector01 says that the Symbols cease to function when held by 'enemies'. Why should this happen? The Bohrok-Kal never tampered with the Symbols.Finally, what would happen to the Nuva's powers if the Symbols were destroyed?

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The Toa Nuva Symbols were created long before the Toa Mata transformed into the Toa Nuva."The Toa Nuva retain their powers as long as the symbols are in the possession of beings who believe in them, ie the Matoran." - GregFIf the Symbols was destroyed, the Toa Nuva's powers would stop working permanently.

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I just had a theory this second on the reason for Artahka making the symbols, when they would appear to be an obvious weakness. The elemental power shut off from The Yesterday Quest. What if the symbols are protection against this shut off? Just a thought, if Artahka knew that it was possible to cut a Toas powers off, what if he created the symbols to remove that weakness from the Nuva? Entirely speculative I suppose, but those symbols really are a weakness otherwise, and the Nuva are supposed to be the most powerful Toa, not the ones who can have their powers stolen.

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You would think based on that, the Nuva would still have access to normal Toa levels of power without their symbols, but that isn't the case...If Tahu is no longer a Nuva, I take it his symbol is now redundant?

Yup, Tahu no longer needs the symbol as he is no longer a Toa Nuva. He can access his elemental powers without it.

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What I've always wanted to know, is if with the Nuva symbols in the hands of Matoran, supposedly making them the strongest Toa, why did they still get owned by the Piraka? I mean Jaller and Co. basically did it without their powers... Forgive if I got that wrong, it has been a while since I read the books.MTL

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If so, then I can't understand why the Toa Mata are not linked to their Symbols, while the Nuva are. And do other Toa possess similar Symbols?

Before I reply directly to your firstpost, lemme give you my view on your first question in the above quote, which was in response to Erebus's correct points here:

The Toa Nuva Symbols were created long before the Toa Mata transformed into the Toa Nuva."The Toa Nuva retain their powers as long as the symbols are in the possession of beings who believe in them, ie the Matoran." - GregFIf the Symbols was destroyed, the Toa Nuva's powers would stop working permanently.

I think I've got an analogy that can explain this. Think of normal Toa power as processing within a computer, which has limited storage space. A big part of the processing handles the effectiveness of the power, including how Toa can use mask powers. Another part handles drawing energy in order to run the power. Still another part handles the actual power source. Now, a Toa Nuva has to have more capacity for the effectiveness of the power. In order to fit this in the computer, one of the other two must go (or be seriously reduced). Everything has an equal and opposite reaction -- the energized protodermis gave them increased abilities, including the ability to share mask powers, and stronger use of elements. But this had a cost. It also removed some of their power source 'processing.' (It couldn't remove the second part; drawing energy, but it did remove the power source itself.)Thus a Toa Nuva on his own is an invalid -- capable of greater power, but only if an external computer is connected to him, which takes over the power source processing itself. The second component, of drawing energy, also has to be modified to draw it from this external source. Thus, the symbol itself does not add power beyond what the Mata had -- if so, taking it away would simply reduce them to a Mata -- rather it makes up for their new lack of an internal energy source. All the increased abilities are contained within their body, but are useless without access to an external energy source.Make sense?

If there is one thing I have never understood in Bionicle, it is the Nuva Symbols. Even Biosector01 doesn't explain properly the mechanisms by which they function. Can anyone here explain exactly how they work? If it helps, I have a few questions I need clarified:I know Artakha created the Symbols, but when exactly? Right at the moment when the Mata transformed into Nuva? What was the point of creating them, and what would have happened if he didn't? It seems to me he caused more harm than good when he created them.Why is it that the Nuva's elemental energies come from the Symbols, not from themselves? I think it is a huge weakness to have to rely on the Symbols for elemental powers. Biosector01 says that the Symbols cease to function when held by 'enemies'. Why should this happen? The Bohrok-Kal never tampered with the Symbols.Finally, what would happen to the Nuva's powers if the Symbols were destroyed?

To sum up answers to some of this, Artahka's creation of the symbols was necessary, or the Nuva would have been made totally powerless (again, not due to a lack of ability, but to lack of energy source). Yes, since they are external, they still create a weakness normal Toa do not have, but that was the energized protodermis's fault, not Artakha's. Keep in mind that their increased abilities did help them often to better face challenges and awaken Mata Nui. (Teridax's takeover notwithstanding -- but that was overcome as well.) So destiny basically gave them a weakness in order to give them greater strength, and the symbols then mostly covered that weakness, except for the one remaining weakness that the Kal exploited.Second, you are right that it is a huge weakness. Do you mean to imply that thus it shouldn't have been done? That would be a major mistake; I often see fans of many things making it; the argument seems to go "X character has Y weakness; therefore storyteller made a mistake in designing the character." But weaknesses are just as important in fictional characters as strengths. And realistically someone of much strength has to have a great weakness too, as weaknesses are simply the other side of the coin of our strengths. If the story portrayed them as having no or little weaknesses they would feel unrealistic and boring (Mary Sues, Gary Stus). That said, really it's no more total weakness than a normal Toa. The weakness is just in a different area. The key question is where should their strengths and weaknesses be to meet the challenges they face? And the simple answer is that a normal Toa is not powerful enough to face all the kinds of challenges the Nuva had to face. You can't easily remove a normal Toa's power, but neither is that power as much of a threat.Third, we have never been given an official revelation as to why the symbols cease working in hands of foes, as far as I know, but I think we can discern an implied theory from the facts we know. An important fact is that Toa and Matoran, when they die, have spirits that attach to their Kanohi masks, and slowly fade away over time. Thus Jaller could be revived just from his mask. I think we can infer from this that during life, there is a spirit aspect to these beings in addition to their biological and mechanical sides, which interfaces from their brains to their Kanohi masks (which use powers, and are needed in Matoran to stay conscious, and Toa to stay at full strength).So we can tie spirits of physical beings to powers. This is also important because many powers, such as Kanoka powers, specify a user of the power, rather than just an effect spreading from an impact point (teleportation, strength, etc.) Kanoka and Kanohi appear to tell who is the user based on physical contact. I think this is probably because a spirit aspect of the characters interfaces with anything that has a protodermic power. With a Nuva symbol, the system seems to be similar, but different. It can be held by a Matoran, Turaga, or other Toa, without harming the power flow to its actual owner. This would seem to be because the spirits of these beings are not hostile to that owner, but want him or her to keep his power. They also continue to flow to the Toa when nobody at all is holding them. But when an enemy holds them, such as the Kal, there would seem to be interference into the power caused by the Kal's spirits interfacing with the Symbol and controlling it to some extent. This also seems to explain how the Nuva could send energy through the symbols into the Kal -- apparently by touching it the Kal were drawing energy from the symbols, not just interfering with the Toa's ability to do so. So there was a remote connection to the Toa still, but the energy was being siphoned off into the Kal first.This might seem counterintuitive since the Kal were robots, but the robots were just the bodies; the Krana brains were the minds. (Also the power might be more like a nonperson spirit reaching out from the symbol to interface with a being, or robot, reading their mind or computer, instead of vice versa, so even a robot could use protodermic powers like this. In that case the attached spirit of dead Matoran might be more like a mold which is shaped by being impressed by the actual living Matoran, and thus you could recreate the original Matoran by reversing the molding process.)Fourth, if the symbols were destroyed, the Toa would be just like during the Kal incident, until or unless Artahka or someone else made new symbols to replace them. [Edit: Above I made it sound like interfering with the symbols prevents mask power usage which is not true. So my analogy really should be complicated to duplicate the above system for mask powers, and the energy source for masks is NOT removed. So it's just the elemental power source that it removed. But what I meant above is that since the mask power function is expanded in the Toa Nuva, the space previously occupied by elemental energy source function is partly taken over now by mask power function. (And partly by expanded elemental power ability.)]

I just had a theory this second on the reason for Artahka making the symbols, when they would appear to be an obvious weakness. The elemental power shut off from The Yesterday Quest. What if the symbols are protection against this shut off? Just a thought, if Artahka knew that it was possible to cut a Toas powers off, what if he created the symbols to remove that weakness from the Nuva? Entirely speculative I suppose, but those symbols really are a weakness otherwise, and the Nuva are supposed to be the most powerful Toa, not the ones who can have their powers stolen.

That's an interesting theory, but I see no reason why it should be true. Greg might want to do it just to add an extra reason for the symbols, but it isn't "the" reason; see above.The power shutoff probably affects the second part of the three parts I described above; the part that takes energy from whatever energy source and applies it to the power. That part is still in the Toa Nuva as I understand it (though I could be wrong). If I'm wrong, then it may be possible, if the symbols are kept away from the shutoff. But it seems more efficient to me to think that the symbols basically send a beam of simple energy to the Toa, who has a receptor for that beam, and then translates it into his power, than to think the symbol itself creates the power and sends the translated, complex power remotely.Also the person doing the shutoff still might be able to follow the remote connection, basically using the Toa as a remote control for the symbol, to shut it off even though it's not nearby.

If so, then I can't understand why the Toa Mata are not linked to their Symbols, while the Nuva are. And do other Toa possess similar Symbols?

Well, they are called Nuva Symbols for a reason. :PToa Nuva are the only Toa who possess such symbols.
It is theoretically possible, though, that other Toa could survive EP and be modified in the same way. They would then also need such symbols in order to use their powers. So the reason there aren't others like them is simply because no others happened to go through that transformation (probably because destiny did not allow it). "Nuva" as a word apparently refers to their new form, so if others existed, they would be Nuva too. Evidence for this is in that we know any mask can be turned into a Kanohi Nuva by dipping in EP; this doesn't mean that it becomes a mask to be owned by those six characters per se, but describes how the mask has changed.Also, there's nothing really conclusively saying a normal Toa couldn't have an external energy source in addition to their internal one, and we know of one example, in fact -- the mask of Elemental Energy, which allows normal Toa to recharge their elemental energy faster. This protodermic power could be put into any shape, including the same shapes as the Nuva symbols, so it would be "similar." :P But not quite the same thing, as by itself it wouldn't have the remote beaming effect. They'd have to touch it to get its energy.(But then, other protodermic powers handling remote beaming could be incorporated. It's possible the symbols work like this rather than a single power which handles everything.)If such an example existed, it would be equivalent to a computer running all the original processing in my above analogy, including an internal power source like a battery, but also having a wire to get external power (like the laptop I'm using to post this lol).

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Bonesii's answer does make a lot of sense. (I'm still trying to process it.) Something that came to mind while reading it was the Nui Stone in Tuyet's possession. It functions in the same way as the Nuva Symbols in the fact that it supplies the hold with more power, like an external power source to a computer. But, Tuyet's elemental power control isn't changed, or so I think. The Nuva Symbols and the Nui Stone could possible be on the same level of enery increasing, with the Nui Stone being a matoran attempt to create something like the Nuva Symbols. Who knows, my they are the same, but just differ in the fact that you have to hold the Nui Stone, while you have to make sure no one against has your symbol.

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Fourth, if the symbols were destroyed, the Toa would be just like during the Kal incident, until or unless Artahka or someone else made new symbols to replace them.

So could the Nuva strengthen their position by having Artahka make new symbols? I don't mean that extra symbols would give them more power, I mean that if they had spare symbols, then losing the first symbol would still leave them with powers from the spare symbol?

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I see it as a matter of balance. The Toa Nuva are more powerful than other Toa -- they must have some sort of weakness to balance that power out.

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Couldn't a toa be modified to use their expanded power like Jaller and Co? Almost all the beings living inside Mata-Nui's old body before teridax's and Mata-Nui's big battle are robotic and walking computers. So couldn't the Nuva be modified in a similar way like Jaller and Co so that the Nuva won't have to have their symbols? Tahu doesn't need to to be modified, so he is out of question. But I think its possible. What do you think guys?

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Bonesii's answer does make a lot of sense. (I'm still trying to process it.) Something that came to mind while reading it was the Nui Stone in Tuyet's possession. It functions in the same way as the Nuva Symbols in the fact that it supplies the hold with more power, like an external power source to a computer. But, Tuyet's elemental power control isn't changed, or so I think. The Nuva Symbols and the Nui Stone could possible be on the same level of enery increasing, with the Nui Stone being a matoran attempt to create something like the Nuva Symbols. Who knows, my they are the same, but just differ in the fact that you have to hold the Nui Stone, while you have to make sure no one against has your symbol.

Yeah, I agree the Nui stone is another example of an external power source. Another difference, for the record, is that it stores up unlimited amounts (apparently) of energy over time, so the user can have access to a lot more energy at once than with the symbols.

Aren't the Nuva only considered "more powerful" because they can share mask powers and do timed blasts, though? It's plausible that they need an extra source of energy for that, but don't panels that can easily stop the flow of their powers seem a bit excessive for just those added powers? I've always been sorta unclear on how the Nuva are "more powerful" than anyone else, and have seen a lot of conflicting information.-(dig)

The comics showed clearly that all the normal uses of their elements were enhanced as well. Go back to the one where the Toa were sort of showing off their powers in competition just after coming out from underground. It's clearly stated there. Timed powers is just an extra ability. (I don't personally recall it being stated normal Toa can't do timed powers, though; I thought the Metru did something like that too, but I'm probably remembering wrong.)

Fourth, if the symbols were destroyed, the Toa would be just like during the Kal incident, until or unless Artahka or someone else made new symbols to replace them.

So could the Nuva strengthen their position by having Artahka make new symbols? I don't mean that extra symbols would give them more power, I mean that if they had spare symbols, then losing the first symbol would still leave them with powers from the spare symbol?
It makes sense.

I see it as a matter of balance. The Toa Nuva are more powerful than other Toa -- they must have some sort of weakness to balance that power out.

Why should it be a question of balance? Look at the Makuta, the amount of powers they have is ridiculous. They are vastly overpowered, but don't have many weaknesses apart from the fact that their energy can easily dissipate when their armour is shattered.

He probably meant balance within the same species. Also, the Makuta do have weaknesses besides that, such as that they can only use one power at a time. Theoretically a Toa could collect a thousand tools with different protodermic powers, especially masks tied to a Suva, and become just about as powerful as a Makuta, with the same limit of one power at a time. So the total amount of power available at one time is not that much higher with Makuta than with Toa (but it IS higher).

Couldn't a toa be modified to use their expanded power like Jaller and Co? Almost all the beings living inside Mata-Nui's old body before teridax's and Mata-Nui's big battle are robotic and walking computers. So couldn't the Nuva be modified in a similar way like Jaller and Co so that the Nuva won't have to have their symbols? Tahu doesn't need to to be modified, so he is out of question. But I think its possible. What do you think guys?

Are you referring to what the Red Star's lightning did, making them supercharged Inika? Or am I forgetting something else? If I get you right, I suppose it's possible, but not necessarily easy. I don't immediately see why Inika-style supercharging would remove the need for the symbols per se. :shrugs:

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if Bonesii's theory is true, then how do the Toa Nuva access their symbols from inside Karda Nui? The shields there are so strong that not even the Staff of Artakha could get in, so I doubt the Nuva symbols could either.Also, how come the Ta-Koronan Matoran were able to salvage Tahu's Nuva symbol but not his Kanohi when Ta-Koro was destroyed by Rahkshi, when all 6 artifacts were in the same place?

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An important fact is that Toa and Matoran, when they die, have spirits that attach to their Kanohi masks, and slowly fade away over time. Thus Jaller could be revived just from his mask. I think we can infer from this that during life, there is a spirit aspect to these beings in addition to their biological and mechanical sides, which interfaces from their brains to their Kanohi masks (which use powers, and are needed in Matoran to stay conscious, and Toa to stay at full strength).So we can tie spirits of physical beings to powers. This is also important because many powers, such as Kanoka powers, specify a user of the power, rather than just an effect spreading from an impact point (teleportation, strength, etc.) Kanoka and Kanohi appear to tell who is the user based on physical contact. I think this is probably because a spirit aspect of the characters interfaces with anything that has a protodermic power.

Isn't it just an imprint of the spirit? My impression was that Jaller's spirit itself wasn't left in the mask, it was probably 'leaving' just like Mata Nui's spirit when the Makuta caught it and put it in the Ignika. What was left behind was like a telephone number by which Takanuva could 'call' Jaller's spirit and beckon it back.

If the story portrayed them as having no or little weaknesses they would feel unrealistic and boring (Mary Sues, Gary Stus).

You are absolutely, 100% right. ;)

So could the Nuva strengthen their position by having Artahka make new symbols? I don't mean that extra symbols would give them more power, I mean that if they had spare symbols, then losing the first symbol would still leave them with powers from the spare symbol?

Not necessarily, they might get overloaded with more symbols. Artakha probably finetuned the symbols for the Nuva, so it would make sense that they give them the greatest access to power they could handle. If they'd double that up they'd get overcharged. Although if that were the case Artakha could probably create symbols that are linked serially to the original ones, so the Nuva could have access to the new symbols through the old ones, doubling their available elemental energy. Alternatively he could make symbols that are set to non-active until the original symbols are destroyed/stolen, providing the backup effect you talked about.

if Bonesii's theory is true, then how do the Toa Nuva access their symbols from inside Karda Nui? The shields there are so strong that not even the Staff of Artakha could get in, so I doubt the Nuva symbols could either.

Karda Nui's shields don't seem to block power supply, otherwise the Core couldn't have supplied power to the rest of the MU.

Also, how come the Ta-Koronan Matoran were able to salvage Tahu's Nuva symbol but not his Kanohi when Ta-Koro was destroyed by Rahkshi, when all 6 artifacts were in the same place?

We don't know but it could be lots of reasons. For instance, it would make sense if a Nuva symbol of fire were resistant against lava, in that case it could've simply washed up on the shore of the Tren Krom Break.
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Well then, all anyone would have to do to stop the Nuva would be to grab the symbols. Easy!

And somebody did, the Kal. Although the Nuva still retained their (enhanced) mask powers.
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...Also, how come the Ta-Koronan Matoran were able to salvage Tahu's Nuva symbol but not his Kanohi when Ta-Koro was destroyed by Rahkshi, when all 6 artifacts were in the same place?

It could be as simple as part of the wall of rock collapsing, smashing the fragile masks but not the stronger symbol. :shrugs: But I agree with Thormen that fire (heat, specifically) resistance makes sense for a Fire Symbol, namely because it produces fire elemental energy.

Isn't it just an imprint of the spirit? My impression was that Jaller's spirit itself wasn't left in the mask, it was probably 'leaving' just like Mata Nui's spirit when the Makuta caught it and put it in the Ignika. What was left behind was like a telephone number by which Takanuva could 'call' Jaller's spirit and beckon it back.

Well, it's possible. I thought Greg worded it something like a remnant attaching itself to it, though. As for Mata Nui's spirit, he may be a completely different type of spirit, but assuming not, he didn't have a Kanohi on hand to attach to like a Toa or Matoran does. (The fact that he did attach to the Ignika supports the idea that he's similar to them, though. Presumably it's only because it was the Ignika that his spirit remained alive in that state. Could be wrong though.)

Karda Nui's shields don't seem to block power supply, otherwise the Core couldn't have supplied power to the rest of the MU.

I agree. It is a fact that the elemental energy production is in the symbols, and given that the Nuva symbols did indeed work, I'd say it's canon fact that the shields must not block that flow of energy. The part of what I said that is a theory is about why the EE production had to moved out to the symbols, not that it did.It's possible and even likely, though, that a physical wire type connection carries energy out from Karda Nui to the rest of the robot, so the shield might simply have a hole in it for that wire. So that evidence isn't conclusive. But I would say the fact that the Nuva could still use their powers is conclusive anyways. :)

Well then, all anyone would have to do to stop the Nuva would be to grab the symbols. Easy!

And somebody did, the Kal. Although the Nuva still retained their (enhanced) mask powers.
And that didn't work out too well for the Kal, did it? The Nuva could use the same trick on any enemy with powers, though, granted, they would only do that as a last resort against living beings (versus robots), since it would kill them and Toa don't kill.But what would be more effective would be to do the Kal trick, plus destroying the symbols. (Not sure how they can be destroyed exactly... I'm picturing Mount Doom here. :P But point is, it might not be that easy.)Also, let's not forget the Nuva and the Matoran/Turaga and allies learned their lesson about the symbol stealing trick. Undoubtedly they are taking more precautions to ensure the symbols aren't so easy to steal. I don't think they're leaving them in plain sight floating on a pedestal that says "here I am, come steal me!" anymore. :P

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Hmm... good reasoning. If I remember correctly Biosector01 said that the Symbols are at secret locations guarded by Matoran... which didn't prove too effective against the Kal :P

They have access to better resources now, as they're not cut off on Mata nui. All they had to fight off the Kal were spears and bamboo disks. Now they have proper Kanoka disks, which are a lot more effective than their bamboo variant. They also have access to more sophisticated weaponry, possibly Xian.

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Yeah, but to be realistic, it's the secret location part that is the best help. :P

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Also, let's not forget the Nuva and the Matoran/Turaga and allies learned their lesson about the symbol stealing trick. Undoubtedly they are taking more precautions to ensure the symbols aren't so easy to steal. I don't think they're leaving them in plain sight floating on a pedestal that says "here I am, come steal me!" anymore. :P

Also, these symbols appeared on Mata Nui. The Bohrok-Kal knew that the possession of these symbols would remove the Toa's powers. It is likely that other foes like TSO and the Skakdi, etc, don't know that they even exist or what would happen if they got ahold of them. Edited by fishers64
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Also, let's not forget the Nuva and the Matoran/Turaga and allies learned their lesson about the symbol stealing trick. Undoubtedly they are taking more precautions to ensure the symbols aren't so easy to steal. I don't think they're leaving them in plain sight floating on a pedestal that says "here I am, come steal me!" anymore. :P

Also, these symbols appeared on Mata Nui. The Bohrok-Kal knew that the possession of these symbols would remove the Toa's powers. It is likely that other foes like TSO and the Skakdi, etc, don't know that they even exist or what would happen if they got ahold of them.
Although every matoran who was on Mata Nui knows about them, so it won't be hard for someone like TSO to find out...

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If he even thinks to ask, that is.I agree with the theory that the symbols are the power source simply because a regular Toa body couldn't handle that much energy at once, both from masks and elements. I dislike the whole "shuts off if in possession of enemy" deal (because "enemy" can be a lot of things, even people who don't know what the heck the symbol is) but the symbols themselves are fine, I guess.By the way, bonesiii: When looking at your post and knuckles chaotix's post, there is one thing that hits me: You write almost too much. :P You got the point across about halfway through, and then I scroll down and see even a few more paragraphs about spirit connections and whatnot. Remember that "a forum post should be like a skirt: long enough to cover the subject material but short enough to keep things interesting". :)

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Well, Katuko, the other paragraphs were responding to other points that had been raised (for example, the stuff about spirit connections was answering a different question than the first stuff). BZP would be well served, frankly, if more people would discuss more details and go more in depth; we're a discussion forum, not Twitter. :P Also I have noticed that disagreements and tempers tend to be stoked more when people beat around the bush with little posts instead of just outlining the whole logic thoroughly and clearly from the start. ^_^But yeah, I've admitted often I tend to be too wordy. Oh well. :P There are worse weaknesses to have, and really by now if you read one of my posts, you know what you're in for, lol.OT:

I dislike the whole "shuts off if in possession of enemy" deal (because "enemy" can be a lot of things, even people who don't know what the heck the symbol is)

Well, this doesn't rule out that entirely, but keep in mind Greg's wording was more like "believing in the Toa", so they need not (apparently) understand what the symbol does for it to continue working. Edited by bonesiii

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I see it more as an external battery, as if you had stuffed your computer so full of extra CPU and RAM and whatever that you simply couldn't fit the power source in anymore.Now, the question is: How does the symbol judge exactly who believes in the Toa and who doesn't? If the Voya Nui Matoran, who knew about Toa but not the correct ones per se... if they had the symbols on their island while the Piraka was there and in control (though before they enslaved everyone), would the Nuva still have their powers?But yeah, bonesiii: There's a difference between the two extremes of "Twitter post" and multi-page essay, of course. What I'm saying is that while I enjoy a good discussion, and can write a fair amount myself, I usually try to cut it down, simply because I know my average audience doesn't care about everything. No offense to you of course. If I was discussing something with you via PM, I would write a lot, but in your average topic, it might help to spread it out and rather use the details later.

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I see it more as an external battery, as if you had stuffed your computer so full of extra CPU and RAM and whatever that you simply couldn't fit the power source in anymore.

I agree. :)

Now, the question is: How does the symbol judge exactly who believes in the Toa and who doesn't? If the Voya Nui Matoran, who knew about Toa but not the correct ones per se... if they had the symbols on their island while the Piraka was there and in control (though before they enslaved everyone), would the Nuva still have their powers?

This is a nitpick, but the Piraka weren't quite in control until they did enslave everyone. But my understanding of the quote is that it would probably be a problem. Even more so afterwards, when the Matoran resistance tried to fight the Toa, basing their decision on their experience with the fake Toa Piraka. The people holding the symbols probably have to know of the Toa Nuva themselves and wish them to have their power.

But yeah, bonesiii: There's a difference between the two extremes of "Twitter post" and multi-page essay, of course. What I'm saying is that while I enjoy a good discussion, and can write a fair amount myself, I usually try to cut it down, simply because I know my average audience doesn't care about everything. No offense to you of course. If I was discussing something with you via PM, I would write a lot, but in your average topic, it might help to spread it out and rather use the details later.

Irony here is I got more replies to that post than any other since the downtime, so it seems the advice is unwarranted here. :P It just comes down to the fact that different people prefer different things and every topic is different. The guideline I think we should all follow is simple -- if you have something to add, don't be afraid to add it, or if you don't have as much to say, don't say as much.(Really I think what probably bothered you is I let some of the paragraphs get too long; my general rule is to keep the paragraphs short; it technically lengthens the posts but seems faster to read. I was short on time to format there and got a bit lax on that.)And you seem to have an erroneous idea that depth of discussion belongs in PMs versus topics; no, we want depth and detail, and giving of "why"s in topics. :) There's no rule or guideline about one or the other in terms of length; in fact we generally prefer posts to be longer, to avoid being spammy, and the more content you put up right away, the more likely those details are to get picked up on, sparking more discussion. :) Frontload.Your point about the average audience is right, but that's why I got to my point early, and saved extra detail for later. That way people can get the gist without reading the whole thing if they so wish. :)I would advise using a similar strategy if you're ever unsure. ^_^And another sage bit of wisdom is to not waste space debating the lengths of posts. :P I don't really mind, but as moderator I must now say let's get back on topic. :) The one time when detail should move to PM or whatever is when it's off-topic, as this is. Edited by bonesiii

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The "external power source" theory does make sense. As for this question:

Now, the question is: How does the symbol judge exactly who believes in the Toa and who doesn't? If the Voya Nui Matoran, who knew about Toa but not the correct ones per se... if they had the symbols on their island while the Piraka was there and in control (though before they enslaved everyone), would the Nuva still have their powers?

I think we shouldn't exclude the possibility that the Toa Nuva didn't just lose their powers because enemies had their symbols. It may just be that the Kal did something to the symbols that prevented them from working. You might wonder how the Kal could know how to do such a thing, but then again, you might wonder how the Kal knew that stealing the symbols would render the Toa Nuva powerless, as this phrase from Comic 9: Divided We Fall seems to imply:

The heart of the Toa Nuva's power lies in their villages. Steal that heart, and they will be unable to stop us.

My guess is that the Bahrag figured it out from the Nuva Cube that was hovering outside their prison all that time (and this would normally bring to another question: why was the Nuva Cube there? But we'd be getting off topic).

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In the online animations, the symbols were seen forming out of thin air above each Koro's Suva just as the Toa sealed the Bahrag. If we go by the notion that Arthaka created them, then they were at least teleported to their given location when the Toa fell into the Energized Protodermis seconds later.It's a bit of specultion on my part, but the combination of their Toa Seal and their Nuva transformation is, in my mind, most likely what triggered the appearance of the Nuva Cube, as it didn't seem to be present before they transformed. Presumably no other elemental power would be "strong enough" to break the seal when it was sustained by Nuva, so the cube was put as a lock in the event that no actual Nuva would be around. The Bohrok were supposed to be awake, after all, just not at that time. Another note: While Tahu coined the name, it was the Turaga that deduced what the symbols were. It's almost as if they knew about the possibility of Nuva existing as well.But now I have another question: The Nuva eventually freed the Bahrag, likely with just another blast of their elements. The Nuva cube would then disappear, I would think, as it was just a lock to their cage, nothing more. But if the Kal had actually put the symbols on the cube... what would have happened? The Bahrg would be free, but would the cube and symbols disappear? I would think the Nuva could just pick them up again after that and then use their regained (and increased) powers to seal the Bahrag once more.

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My guess is that the Bahrag figured it out from the Nuva Cube that was hovering outside their prison all that time (and this would normally bring to another question: why was the Nuva Cube there? But we'd be getting off topic).

The Nuva cube is linked directly to the symbols, I wouldn't deem it off topic.

But now I have another question: The Nuva eventually freed the Bahrag, likely with just another blast of their elements. The Nuva cube would then disappear, I would think, as it was just a lock to their cage, nothing more. But if the Kal had actually put the symbols on the cube... what would have happened? The Bahrg would be free, but would the cube and symbols disappear? I would think the Nuva could just pick them up again after that and then use their regained (and increased) powers to seal the Bahrag once more.

Alternatively, the Toa would be left powerless, without symbols. Even if they did get their powers back, they wouldn't just be able to reseal the Bahrag, the Bohrok Kal are still a powerful force, and would probably immediately move in to protect the Bahrag once they had been released...

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if Bonesii's theory is true, then how do the Toa Nuva access their symbols from inside Karda Nui? The shields there are so strong that not even the Staff of Artakha could get in, so I doubt the Nuva symbols could either.Also, how come the Ta-Koronan Matoran were able to salvage Tahu's Nuva symbol but not his Kanohi when Ta-Koro was destroyed by Rahkshi, when all 6 artifacts were in the same place?

Because they moved it from Ta-Koro after the Kal incident. Each Nuva symbol rested in their Suva, until the Kal stole them. After receiving them again, the matoran hid them in a secret place, and then were taken with them to Metru Nui, probably to another secret place.

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I think we shouldn't exclude the possibility that the Toa Nuva didn't just lose their powers because enemies had their symbols. It may just be that the Kal did something to the symbols that prevented them from working.

Good idea. I think the fact that the Nuva were able to send energy into the Kal backwards could support this. Perhaps what they did was simply to tap into the power source themselves, intentionally siphoning the power off. So the Toa simply used that active connection against them; they didn't need to make the connection remotely before sending the energy.Let's just keep in mind that Greg did make it sound like this is automatic if an enemy or non-supporter holds the symbols.I also agree it's likely the Bahrag could have figured this out due to the Nuva cube. As for why it was there, I'm not sure if Artakha was involved (that would seem likely), but it was a modification of a Toa Seal which is always made with Toa protocages. Apparently normal Toa Seals aren't visible, but this one was made visible.Or perhaps it was another object Artakha made, which acted as a remote control for the invisible Toa seal. :shrugs:

But now I have another question: The Nuva eventually freed the Bahrag, likely with just another blast of their elements. The Nuva cube would then disappear, I would think, as it was just a lock to their cage, nothing more. But if the Kal had actually put the symbols on the cube... what would have happened? The Bahrg would be free, but would the cube and symbols disappear? I would think the Nuva could just pick them up again after that and then use their regained (and increased) powers to seal the Bahrag once more.

I think the "cleanest" answer is that 1) the cube probably was made by Artakha, teleported in when it became important, and would be teleported away when it was used to unlock the cage. 2) The symbols wouldn't go away -- they are still the source of power for the Nuva. And 3) the Nuva freed the Bahrag not with a blast of elements but by putting the symbols on the cube, as the Kal were going to do.So putting symbols on the cube would make the cage and the cube disappear (or the cage shatter and the cube disappear), but nothing else would happen.Part of why I say this is that the Nuva might want to make another protocage in the future, and then the cube would probably be teleported to that new cage, and the same system would be in place. Other answers are possible but they'd get complicated quickly.True, this would mean the Kal were risking letting the Toa just trap the Bahrag again, but the story portrays them as so arrogant and confident that I think this is a risk they were willing to live with. After all, the Toa couldn't do it right away, and now the Bahrag plus the Kal plus the whole Bohrok army could defend the symbols from recapture. Probably the showdown in the comic was realistically the last chance the Nuva really had at getting their powers back, unless someone from the OoMN or other Toa showed up to help, or Artakha sent new symbols.Basically, the Kal were banking on the theory that the Nuva weren't going to get outside help. Probably unrealistic, but then these are the same guys that fell for the "ooh we can become even MORE powerful" trick, to their own destruction, heh.BTW, Taipu, you are correct, for the record, that the cube is on-topic here. :) Edited by bonesiii

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From the end of Bioncle Legends 7:

Hesitantly, the six Toa Nuva pooled their energies and sent them out in a single beam. It shattered the Toa seal that kept the prison intact, and seconds later, the cage itself had collapsed.

The Nuva released the Bahrag with a beam, not the symbols.

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Ah, thanks for the correction, All or None. Do we know if the "Toa seal" referred to there IS the cube, or is the cube something else and the seal is just the same as a non-Nuva protocage? Anybody know?If the cube is something else, we could theorize that if the Kal had succeeded, it would have sent out a beam at the cage, so it could function as an alternate way to open it. If it's the seal, I guess it would have just shattered as soon as the symbols were in place.

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