Why Are Certain Elements Separate?

[~Shockwave~]

in the bionicle universe water and ice are treated like different powers, why?it has also become somewhat apparent to me that light and darkness may not be as opposite as i thought.since darkness is the absence of light, in order to control darkness wouldn't that mean, all things considered, that you would have some control over light? and vice versa? (however you spell that)

[FrozenFlash]

Maybe when you control darkness, you "control light" by banishing and removing it to spread the darkness.

[Simulacrum]

Along with what you listed, what about stone and earth? I always thought they should be labeled under "Land".

[T.B.O.C]

Along with what you listed, what about stone and earth? I always thought they should be labeled under "Land".

Well, they are similar, but are different. Controlling dirt is different from controlling a stone. Many of they ways they control their respective elements are similar as well, as we usually see Toa of Earth and Toa of Stone control large fists made of their repective elements.

[a goose]

in the bionicle universe water and ice are treated like different powers, why?it has also become somewhat apparent to me that light and darkness may not be as opposite as i thought.since darkness is the absence of light, in order to control darkness wouldn't that mean, all things considered, that you would have some control over light? and vice versa? (however you spell that)

Light has some control over dark. However, dark has no control over light. I think ice is treated differently because it's frozen, and ice isn't so much control over ice as control over low temperatures.

[Toa of Nerds]

Along with what you listed, what about stone and earth? I always thought they should be labeled under "Land".

Personally, I always thought that Stone and Earth should be labeled under "Earth". But back to the original question. Water and Ice are different because they control different things. Water controls the physical entity of liquid, however, it cannot change the state of matter of a subtance. A toa of water cannot turn water into ice or steam, for instance. The power of Ice, however, controls temperature. An ice toa can change the state of matter of a subtance. To an extent, both Fire and Ice control the same thing (temperature), but in reverse. A toa of fire cannot flash freeze something by sucking the heat out of it, nor can an ice toa melt something upon a touch by reversing his control of temperature.This same argument applies to the light/dark question. A toa of light could use his power of light to control darkness indirectly, but it would be more difficult. Plus, you wouldn't have the epic Dark vs Light struggle .-don't touch my pocket protector

[~Shockwave~]

Actually toa of nerds I can remember an instance when toa vakama sucked the heat out of a room to put a fire monster at bay.I forgot about earth and stone.So, we have now separated ice and water, but the main point is light and shadowAnd for the record you can still have an epic "lets kill the guy who controls shadow" and them be the same...Edit: let's say you had a toa of air and a toa of vaccume, dont they control the same thing, technical/y?

Edited December 23, 2011 by bumblebee

[Jowm]

Actually toa of nerds I can remember an instance when toa vakama sucked the heat out of a room to put a fire monster at bay.I forgot about earth and stone.So, we have now separated ice and water, but the main point is light and shadowAnd for the record you can still have an epic "lets kill the guy who controls shadow" and them be the same...Edit: let's say you had a toa of air and a toa of vaccume, dont they control the same thing, technical/y?

About the vacuum and air powers, yes, they are the same power essentially, but vacuum is a sub-element, and therefore there are no Toa with it as a main element, only Toa of air have it as it is a sub-element of their element. As for the Vakama thing, I think I remember that too, I think it was in Time Trap, anyway, I think a Toa of fire could have limited powers over cold temperature, but only the ability to make an area/object cold, no control over ice or anything like that that a Toa of ice would have, ad the majority of his powers would be to control hotter temperatures, and things such as fire and lava, as fire is essentially sort of a manifestation of heat and lava is loaded with enough heat for a Toa of fire to control it.

[~Shockwave~]

So, therefore controlling light, and the absence of it is basicly the same.

[Makuta Matata]

And I'm pretty sure that Time and Life aren't elements....

[bonesiii]

Since there's another topic open about stone and earth, let's limit that discussion to the other topic.OT: The key is the presence of two fictional types of energy in Bionicle -- cold energy and shadow energy.Ice is an element that can control just cold energy (which drains things of heat) or cold energy plus water. It cannot control just water. Likewise, Water cannot control frozen water. The main reason they are different is because these form distinct regions with very different attributes in everyday life for Matoran and other beings. Living in a frozen tundra is very different from life on a tropical seashore, even though technically the same substance is there.Shadow is not just a lack in Bionicle; it is shadow energy, which drains light. Light drains shadow energy too, so in this case it's kinda like yin/yang; the two are opposites.Also it's worth noting that most elements and powers are intentionally designed to overlap and interrelate to some extent, so that anyone with any basic power can handle most circumstances that might come up. They just use different means. If we want, we can spot overlaps between any two elements in at least one circumstance. This isn't an oversight; it's intentional. It's tied to a major theme of Bionicle -- Unity.

[~Shockwave~]

Hm that's an interesting way of putting it.Using that logic a toa of water would be toast if it went below 32.And from what I gather ice is power over cold, and frozen waterBut the main point I'm trying to get an explanation for is, in theory, if you can control where your element is, you can control where its not, therefore, by controlling light you're able to control shadow. Is this the case in bionicle?

[bonesiii]

Yes, that's correct, bumblebee. A Toa of Light can absorb light (all Toa can absorb their elements, with possible exception of Psionics), which would make an area darker. And a being of Shadow can absorb the dark energy, which is a little more confusing, but would basically enable an area to become lighter, provided there is a light source.Edit: Not sure what you mean about a Toa of Water, though. But they can't directly control ice, no. They could still make liquid water anew, and control it until it freezes (water doesn't freeze right away except in extreme cold).As for ice, that's a good way to say it, yeah.

Edited December 25, 2011 by bonesiii

[BioGio]

Both Gravity and Psionics are apparently exceptions to the "absorbing Elements" rule. Additionally, knuckles chaotix, time and Life are both Legendary Powers, which were previously known as Legendary Elements.Now, just one little question that might be important: Would a Toa of Light's power over shadow/darkness be as complete as a Toa of Shadow's?I would assume that their control would have to be less subtle and precise, just as Toa Vakama only absorbed a large, general amount of heat from a furnace or building. However, he was a rather new Toa, and I may not remember that scene all too well. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about that in particular.~ BioGio

[~Shockwave~]

If the toa is precise I imagine they could control the lack of just as preciseAnd bones, if there was a light source than there wouldn't be much darkness.But with nothing to fill the space, die to the fact.that you must have one or both of them, I really can't wrap my brain around what would be there if there is no light or shadow... my brain hurts now.

[bonesiii]

Now, just one little question that might be important: Would a Toa of Light's power over shadow/darkness be as complete as a Toa of Shadow's?I would assume that their control would have to be less subtle and precise, just as Toa Vakama only absorbed a large, general amount of heat from a furnace or building. However, he was a rather new Toa, and I may not remember that scene all too well. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about that in particular.

Right, it wouldn't be as easy as for a user of Shadow. One limitation is that their element normally recharges over time, and when a Toa's EE is full, they can't really hold any more for much time. Assuming he hasn't just come from battle or whatnot and so isn't low, absorbing a lot of light to make darkness will overload him, so he'll have to make light again quickly. A Toa (or Makuta, etc.) of Shadow wouldn't have this problem.

And bones, if there was a light source than there wouldn't be much darkness.

There would be if there was enough shadow energy in the area. Think of shadow energy as like a thick fog which light has trouble getting through. Something like dark smoke except not physical. This doesn't just happen naturally, of course -- a being such as a Makuta probably has to be around creating this shadow energy. So normally what you say is correct; if there's a light source it would work normally as in our world.Does that help clarify it?

But with nothing to fill the space, die to the fact.that you must have one or both of them, I really can't wrap my brain around what would be there if there is no light or shadow... my brain hurts now.

The key is that the lack of light is darkness whether or not the special Shadow energy is present or not. Just like in our world. Here's another analogy -- think of Shadow energy as like black paint on a white rock. If you go into a totally dark room, does it matter to your eyes whether the rock has been painted black or not?No, you can't see it either way, if there's no light source.But if there IS a light source, then you'll see a difference between a white rock and a white rock painted black. Make sense?

[~Shockwave~]

.So, using that logic (as its more sound than mine) it sounds like a tainted energy, which giving the position in the storyline shadow based charecters have, makes sense. I'm not sure I quite understand your rock analogy, could you clarify?

[bonesiii]

I'm not sure I quite understand your rock analogy, could you clarify?

Well it's not the best analogy anyways. But lemme try it another way -- light and normal darkness work the same in Bionicle as here. It might seem different since Toa can make light, but it's just like any other light source really. So if there's no light, there's darkness (the lack of light) just like in this world.So if you have no light, and no shadow energy, then you have the same thing as no light in our universe. Which is darkness.Shadow energy is a different kind of darkness than the lack of light, is basically what I'm trying to say. It actively drains any light that is there. If there IS no light to drain, then shadow energy's presence is irrelevant -- either way it's totally dark. Make sense?

[Takhamavahu]

Elemental Powers in a Toa aren't an inherent force in nature; they were designed subjectively by the Great Beings. They felt like making Ice and Water seperate because they thought their prctical uses were different enough however related they may be in nature. A Toa's body isn't designed to recognise ice as frozen water, so the elemental powers don't cross over.

[Nuparu1995]

I think, first and foremost, it was a marketing technique.But from a storyline-ish standpoint, I would imagine they would correspond to the Wahi, or other general climate regions to give those with elemental control ability to master nearly any environment when together.

[~Shockwave~]

Okay, so its shadow that can destroy light. Essentially

[Zarohum]

Stone, Earth, and Iron. And Fire and Plasma. A lot of things are redundant. Greg Explained the difference between Earth and Stone (See my sig). And there are Rahkshi of heat and laser vision, which is just derpy.

[Kojol]

Fire and Plasma is the only one which I don't understand the separation of.I've always understood Shadow to be more of a destructive force. Hence Makuta's "I am Destruction" speech back in 2001. Shadow represents decay, negative emotion, and an absence of order or substance.Stone, Earth, Iron, etc. are all fairly similar elements, but they operate using different substances. Dirt, rock, and metal.Heat vision is more of an area-effect power, laser vision is more targeted.

[Erebus]

Fire can be used for many things .. for example, warming things, burning things, melting things, etc. Plasma only does one thing, it melts things.

[Toa of Plasma] controls superheated ionized gas.

I got asked this before. I think the difference, in my mind, is that a Toa of Fire can do a lot more. He can create light, he can warm things, he can do lukewarm heat or lots of heat, he can absorb fire -- so he has a wide variety of powers and power levels to play with.A Toa of Plasma, on the other hand, basically does one thing -- deliver incredibly searing heat and melt things -- and he does it really well. Now, if you want to say that a Toa of Fire is a lot more useful, in general, than a Toa of Plasma, I would probably agree with you -- except in the sense that we already have flamethrowers in the military, yet the military sees a need for plasma weapons as well. There has to be a difference that they see in the two.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Erebus

[~Shockwave~]

I.... um.... I didn't, um...

Stone, Earth, and Iron. And Fire and Plasma. A lot of things are redundant. Greg Explained the difference between Earth and Stone (See my sig). And there are Rahkshi of heat and laser vision, which is just derpy.

Iron is well, iron. And we where told to leave earth and stone aloneAnd a clump of dirt Is just a clump of miniature rocks. Chew on that

[bonesiii]

Okay, so its shadow that can destroy light. Essentially

Right.

[Visaru]

And a clump of dirt Is just a clump of miniature rocks. Chew on that

There's another topic called 'what can Onua do that Pohatu can't?' or something like that. It answers that very question.

[Anti Nui]

When you guys say "Shadow Energy," does that refer to that glowing red energy-like substance that we see when Teridax makes a Shadow Hand in the movies?Also, doesn't the Shadow element include illusions?

[bonesiii]

When you guys say "Shadow Energy," does that refer to that glowing red energy-like substance that we see when Teridax makes a Shadow Hand in the movies? Also, doesn't the Shadow element include illusions?

As I understand it, it's black, sort of like "glowing black" if you can imagine that.The red energy involved in Shadow Hands is probably energy for the hand side of the power, similar to other powers often involve glowing energy. I could be wrong about this, though. It may also simply be artistic license.