What Could Pohatu Do That Onua Couldn't?

[bonesiii]

Pohatu can bicycle kick boulders, that's what!Actually, I was reading my 2001-2002 graphic novel the other day and noticed several instances where Onua hurled large stone boulders at his enemies while Pohatu just kicked small rocks at them.Maybe it was just Onua's mask of strength that prompted him to chuck the huge slabs of rock at some Nui Rama and Bohrok, but it does seem like both Pohatu and Onua use each other's elements quite a bit. Could just be technicalities.

I figured this would come up -- if you're talking about the scene I am thinking of, it was a clump of Earth, Greg said, not a boulder. If you look closely, you can see smaller clumps of Earth falling off of it.Offhand I don't recall any instance other than that one, so not sure what else you're referring too. This was in one of the 2001 comics.

Actually, I was reading my 2001-2002 graphic novel the other day and noticed several instances where Onua hurled large stone boulders at his enemies while Pohatu just kicked small rocks at them.Maybe it was just Onua's mask of strength that prompted him to chuck the huge slabs of rock at some Nui Rama and Bohrok, but it does seem like both Pohatu and Onua use each other's elements quite a bit. Could just be technicalities.

Yeah, Onua was only throwing the boulders, assuming I'm understanding you correctly and the comic wasn't going against canon. It's possible that Onua had more ease in moving the boulders due not only to his Pakari but also because he could control (and thus loosen up) the earth around the boulders.~ BioGioEDIT: Quoted.

That is possible, yes. I'm just not aware that Onua ever did actually throw a boulder. Possibly my forgetfulness at work, heh.

[Eragon3443]

I always thought that the difference between Earth and Stone was...questionable...at best. I've always wondered: what could a toa of stone do that a toa of earth couldn't do? A toa of stone can control stone, but since stone is made of earth, couldn't a toa of earth control it as well?Phrased specifically: what could Pohatu do that Onua couldn't?-don't touch my pocket protector

Good question. Basically, Onua controlled the solidified "dirt" and andPohatu controlled non-solidified. hat's my best answer =S

[Duarack5]

Here's how I think of it:Toa of Stone control "pure" stone, solid rock or chunks of solid rock. Toa of Earth control dirt and mud. Sure, dirt is pretty much little bits of crushed stone, but that's similar to ice just being frozen water: Toa of Ice and Water are controlling the same element, just in different forms. Same for Toa of Stone and Earth.

[bonesiii]

Actually dirt can include a lot besides crushed stone; soil is usually decayed plant material for example. It's more of the other way around; that all dirt can become some kind of sedimentary stone under the right pressure and other circumstances. And maybe not all at that.

[Lielac]

Like bonesii said, dirt/soil - Onua's element - is/has decayed plant matter, an organic component. Stone is entirely inorganic (and dirt can, over time and through pressure and/or heat, become stone, but I can't think of any way to turn stone into dirt). The difference between Onua and Pohatu, I think, is that Pohatu could control sand. Pohatu could probably turn a pile of sand into a solid rock by basically putting it back together using his control over Stone. Onua couldn't, except maybe by squeezing it hard enough, but that requires Onua has his Pakari on so it's not part of his elemental powers.There are also more obvious things: Pohatu kicks boulders around that didn't exist a second ago, Onua has to find them first. Onua seems in tune with seismic tremors and such (the earth as in that thing beneath our feet) and can I think cause earthquakes, while Pohatu is more finding weaknesses in rocks to bust them to sand. I think Onua's Nova Blast would be something like a serious earthquake, and Pohatu's would more likely be something like rocks fall everyone dies.

[bonesiii]

Like bonesii said, dirt/soil - Onua's element - is/has decayed plant matter, an organic component. Stone is entirely inorganic (and dirt can, over time and through pressure and/or heat, become stone, but I can't think of any way to turn stone into dirt)

Well, crushing a stone into tiny particles would do it. I said Earth can include organic soil; I didn't mean to imply that's all it could be. Either can be turned into the other, but that fact does not make the two the same. (Similarly, Water and Ice can be made into each other, but are different.)

The difference between Onua and Pohatu, I think, is that Pohatu could control sand.

You're right that sand is the dividing line between them -- Onua controls particles smaller than sand, Pohatu larger. But the canon has changed on actually controlling sand. Originally Greg said Pohatu controls it, but later changed it to neither. Sand would instead fall under a separate Bara Magna element.Both of them could create earthquakes, depending on how much earth or rock was in the ground at a particular spot.Also, a Nova Blast of Earth wouldn't just be an earthquake, because making a quake doesn't make Earth, and Nova blasts make their element in huge amounts. It would be literally a blast of tons of Earth being created at once. As I said earlier, Onua's Nova Blast would probably be like a huge landslide, radiating out from a central point.

[Lielac]

Oh, yes, you're right on all points there. Especially the Nova Blast one, whoops! It's kind of a strange thing to me, though, that sand belongs to neither, and that the only actual difference is size of particles... eh, if it's canon it's canon.What's the dividing line between really hard-packed dirt and stone, then, since that would be another line between Onua and Pohatu's powers?

[bonesiii]

Apparently if you can still knock it apart into its smaller particles, it's Earth. I think Greg's comment about if someone throws a clump of dirt at you versus a rock helps here. A rock wouldn't fall apart, unless it was thrown reeeally hard against something much harder than you, heh.

[Toatapio Nuva]

The line between stone and earth was easier to understand in the old Bionicle story, where Onua basically dug tunnels and Pohatu kicked boulders. Neither used their elemental powers that much. In the later stories, one thing I have been confused about has been for example Onewa creating pillars of stone from the earth. The pillars are made of stone, sure, but how can Onewa make them out of the earth?Bionicle was meant for children and thus things like this haven't been thought about thoroughly. We need to think about it in a simple way. Earth is soil and mud. There can be other things in the earth, but I find it easier to just think about these things. Also, earthquakes are caused by the element of Earth.Stone is rocks and hard minerals. Stone can be cracked, unlike earth, which crumbles. Rock is also more durable, but heavier and harder to control.Just something I thought up...

[Katuko]

Onewa, in that case, just spends elemental energy to create his element out of nothing. Therefore he can create stone pillars in sand, just like Kopaka creates Ice in empty air and Jaller shot flame and heat underwater.

[reptiman]

Ok I am going to finish this argument. By definition earth is decomposed living matter and other stuff. Earth is mud, dirt, swampy matter, think of karda nui. Stone on the other hand is rock, shale, sediments. The earth is made of stone for the most part. Sand was considered an element controlled by stone in the story line. It's not far off. Many sedimetary rocks are sand and other rocks fused together. Stone is very different than earth. Plus Pohatu is awesome. Don't you dare count him out!

[bonesiii]

The line between stone and earth was easier to understand in the old Bionicle story, where Onua basically dug tunnels and Pohatu kicked boulders. Neither used their elemental powers that much. In the later stories, one thing I have been confused about has been for example Onewa creating pillars of stone from the earth. The pillars are made of stone, sure, but how can Onewa make them out of the earth?Bionicle was meant for children and thus things like this haven't been thought about thoroughly. We need to think about it in a simple way. Earth is soil and mud. There can be other things in the earth, but I find it easier to just think about these things. Also, earthquakes are caused by the element of Earth.Stone is rocks and hard minerals. Stone can be cracked, unlike earth, which crumbles. Rock is also more durable, but heavier and harder to control.Just something I thought up...

The line should be easy -- probably easier -- to understand now, at least if you're on here, hearing what I just said about particle size. Any particle smaller than sand is Earth, any larger (pebbles, etc.) is Stone. Simple. :)Onewa was probably expanding bedrock upwards, or he could have shot a beam of elemental energy at the earth and made it materialize from that point. Either way, this shouldn't be confusing because what he made was new Stone, and he made it from the power within himself. Not from Earth.The line between the two elements is simple. But that has never meant the elements aren't versatile.The meaning of "element" is something which can be freely used in just about any way the Toa imagines; has from the start. Early story established this principle of using the imagination and thinking it through for how to apply an element. Maybe the example uses of Stone and Earth specifically weren't as varied as other elements, but the general principle should have been easily observed from other elements. :)Also, usually these things have been thought through in extraordinary detail, it's just that all that takes place in Greg discussions which average fans out there aren't reading. So it's more that the fans just haven't heard the clarifications. But the story itself is clear on it if you pay close attention. ^_^Also, earthquakes are vibrations in the ground. That can be caused by shaking rock, or by shaking dirt. Either could work, not just Earth. Technically even Kopaka could create an earthquake by putting enough ice in the ground and making it shake.

Ok I am going to finish this argument. By definition earth is decomposed living matter and other stuff. Earth is mud, dirt, swampy matter, think of karda nui. Stone on the other hand is rock, shale, sediments. The earth is made of stone for the most part. Sand was considered an element controlled by stone in the story line. It's not far off. Many sedimetary rocks are sand and other rocks fused together. Stone is very different than earth. Plus Pohatu is awesome. Don't you dare count him out!

About mud, since this keeps being brought up -- Earth is just the dirt in the mud, not the water. So again, the line is simple -- particle size (solid). Also, the actual storyline never showed sand being controlled by Stone. That was just an answer of Greg's to a debate me and another BZPer were having back in the old days of the Official Elements Topic. I had said it was Earth, the other guy said Stone, and Greg sided with the other guy. But it was never shown in story; this was the whole reason we were debating it. Later when Sand element was introduced on Bara Magna Greg changed it to neither Earth or Stone.And Stone and Earth -are- similar. There's nothing wrong with two elements being similar; I think the myth that they have to be very different is what's getting a lot of people into trouble with it. Also many sedimentary rocks are made of particles smaller than sand.(And for the record, this is not an argument, nor should it be ended. It's a discussion, which is good. But I'm sure it was just a figure of speech, heh.)An interesting thing to bring up which we haven't really discussed is what if metallic protodermis was reduced to small particle size? Would it still count under Iron, or would it now be Earth? (I think Iron, so Earth would be nonmetallic small solid particles, but I don't have canon confirmation of this as far as I recall.)

[reptiman]

The line between stone and earth was easier to understand in the old Bionicle story, where Onua basically dug tunnels and Pohatu kicked boulders. Neither used their elemental powers that much. In the later stories, one thing I have been confused about has been for example Onewa creating pillars of stone from the earth. The pillars are made of stone, sure, but how can Onewa make them out of the earth?Bionicle was meant for children and thus things like this haven't been thought about thoroughly. We need to think about it in a simple way. Earth is soil and mud. There can be other things in the earth, but I find it easier to just think about these things. Also, earthquakes are caused by the element of Earth.Stone is rocks and hard minerals. Stone can be cracked, unlike earth, which crumbles. Rock is also more durable, but heavier and harder to control.Just something I thought up...

The line should be easy -- probably easier -- to understand now, at least if you're on here, hearing what I just said about particle size. Any particle smaller than sand is Earth, any larger (pebbles, etc.) is Stone. Simple. :)Onewa was probably expanding bedrock upwards, or he could have shot a beam of elemental energy at the earth and made it materialize from that point. Either way, this shouldn't be confusing because what he made was new Stone, and he made it from the power within himself. Not from Earth.The line between the two elements is simple. But that has never meant the elements aren't versatile.The meaning of "element" is something which can be freely used in just about any way the Toa imagines; has from the start. Early story established this principle of using the imagination and thinking it through for how to apply an element. Maybe the example uses of Stone and Earth specifically weren't as varied as other elements, but the general principle should have been easily observed from other elements. :)Also, usually these things have been thought through in extraordinary detail, it's just that all that takes place in Greg discussions which average fans out there aren't reading. So it's more that the fans just haven't heard the clarifications. But the story itself is clear on it if you pay close attention. ^_^Also, earthquakes are vibrations in the ground. That can be caused by shaking rock, or by shaking dirt. Either could work, not just Earth. Technically even Kopaka could create an earthquake by putting enough ice in the ground and making it shake.

Ok I am going to finish this argument. By definition earth is decomposed living matter and other stuff. Earth is mud, dirt, swampy matter, think of karda nui. Stone on the other hand is rock, shale, sediments. The earth is made of stone for the most part. Sand was considered an element controlled by stone in the story line. It's not far off. Many sedimetary rocks are sand and other rocks fused together. Stone is very different than earth. Plus Pohatu is awesome. Don't you dare count him out!

About mud, since this keeps being brought up -- Earth is just the dirt in the mud, not the water. So again, the line is simple -- particle size (solid).Also, the actual storyline never showed sand being controlled by Stone. That was just an answer of Greg's to a debate me and another BZPer were having back in the old days of the Official Elements Topic. I had said it was Earth, the other guy said Stone, and Greg sided with the other guy. But it was never shown in story; this was the whole reason we were debating it. Later when Sand element was introduced on Bara Magna Greg changed it to neither Earth or Stone.And Stone and Earth -are- similar. There's nothing wrong with two elements being similar; I think the myth that they have to be very different is what's getting a lot of people into trouble with it. Also many sedimentary rocks are made of particles smaller than sand.(And for the record, this is not an argument, nor should it be ended. It's a discussion, which is good. But I'm sure it was just a figure of speech, heh.)An interesting thing to bring up which we haven't really discussed is what if metallic protodermis was reduced to small particle size? Would it still count under Iron, or would it now be Earth? (I think Iron, so Earth would be nonmetallic small solid particles, but I don't have canon confirmation of this as far as I recall.)

Well mud is a mixture between dirt and water so I think it classifies under both elements. Actually I believe that it was used in the story. In one of the metru nui books didn't onewa use sand and vakama use fire to create glass? I might be getting mixed up, but I seem to remember that. Truth be told I don't see them as similar. I see earth and stone as very different but maybe that is just me and my more science based mind . That was a figure of speech by the way I was just using the scientific definitions to explain the difference. On the iron note technically I believe it would stick under the label of iron I believe. Edited January 20, 2012 by reptiman

[Chip Wiseman]

Well, I always saw Pohatu as controlling, as everyone before me said, solid rocks. I thought this included sand (which is tiny pieces of rock) but since BS01 is still getting back in it's stride, I can't check. Onua does the mud and soil, and seismic quakes.As for physical strength, I think Pohatu = Onua + Pakari.I believe Kanohi grant the Mata powers they lack in, but will need, as in:Without a Hau, Tahu is rubbish at defense.Without a Kaukau, Gali can't breath underwater.Without a Pakari, Onua is weak.Without a Kakama, Pohatu is clunky and slow.Without a Miru, Lewa can't take to the air.Without an Akaku, Kopaka is bad at seeing what is not obvious.

[TLhikan]

On the whole mud thing, while it is a mixture of water and earth, they're still separate materials. I think a Toa of Water could control the water but leave a patch of dirt, while the Toa of Earth could control the dirt and leave a puddle. Presumably the same with, say slush and a Toa of Ice.On a side note, this reminds me of a time I asked Gregf how Magnetism and Iron were functionally different. -TLhikan

[bonesiii]

In one of the metru nui books didn't onewa use sand and vakama use fire to create glass? I might be getting mixed up, but I seem to remember that

You're probably thinking of Tahu and Lewa making glass -- Lewa using air to move sand around in a tornado -- in Mask of Light. Unless there was a similar incident I've forgotten. A Toa of Fire could also turn existing sand into glass by himself.And TLhikan is right about mud, although the two Toa could also combine their powers to control it together.

[BioGio]

In one of the metru nui books didn't onewa use sand and vakama use fire to create glass? I might be getting mixed up, but I seem to remember that

You're probably thinking of Tahu and Lewa making glass -- Lewa using air to move sand around in a tornado -- in Mask of Light. Unless there was a similar incident I've forgotten. A Toa of Fire could also turn existing sand into glass by himself.

Technically, that happened with Vakama and Onewa, too, but Onewa simply struck the sand at the Tunneler in that incident. Source.~ BioGio

[reptiman]

In one of the metru nui books didn't onewa use sand and vakama use fire to create glass? I might be getting mixed up, but I seem to remember that

You're probably thinking of Tahu and Lewa making glass -- Lewa using air to move sand around in a tornado -- in Mask of Light. Unless there was a similar incident I've forgotten. A Toa of Fire could also turn existing sand into glass by himself.

Technically, that happened with Vakama and Onewa, too, but Onewa simply struck the sand at the Tunneler in that incident. Source.~ BioGio

Thank you that was the incident I was thinking of.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, I thought there was something with a Tunneler. BS01 there says:

While trying to retrieve the Po-Metru Great Disk from the Sculpture Fields, they encountered a mad Tunneler. Vakama made the mistake of channeling fire at the Rahi, causing the creature to absorb the elemental energy and adapt, becoming engulfed in flame. It was only after Onewa struck sand at the creature did it turn into glass and was immobilized. They found the Po-Metru Great Disk [soon after]

Key part bolded, but what BS01's source is for this, I do not know (perhaps a Greg answer). This was just before finding the Po Great Disk, so that's Adventures #2, Trial By Fire. The actual quote is this:

"Now!" shouted Onewa. He slung his proto piton onto a nearby statue and he and Vakama swung from their perch high above. As they passed over the tunneler, Vakama unleashed a quick, intense fire blast at the ground.Fire met sand right in front of the creature, fusing the ground into glass. Startled by the light and the heat, the creature whipped its tail forward, striking the new glass surface. That was all it took for the tunneler of stone to change to a tunneler of crystal.

Onewa's role here is unclear; it's possible someone asked Greg to clarify and he may have said that Onewa slapped up sand, creating a mound. It would make more sense that way, since it would provide something raised for the tunneler's tail to hit. Still, from the actual storyline (which is what I'm saying didn't show Po-Toa controlling sand), it would appear Onewa's only role was enabling Vakama to swing down, and that the tail hit the flattish ground in front of the tunneler.Either way, it's clear that only Vakama activated his elemental power here. If Onewa had created sand, or moved existing sand, it would have been mentioned alongside the mention of Vakama using his power. And the ground here was already sand, so there was no need to make new sand, per se. Also, Onewa's Toa Tool was busy being the hook pivot they were swinging on, although it's possible he used only one for that and could have aimed the other at the ground. But no mention of Onewa doing anything to the sand at all is given.That's from pages 82 to 83. I admit I only skimmed what came before, but I didn't see anything that would add to this.Also, I think this was written well before we were having that debate which Greg decided on, so it's quite possible he hadn't even thought of giving Pohatu control of sand yet. Edited January 22, 2012 by bonesiii

[reptiman]

That was the instance I was thinking of. I really thought onewa controlled sand once in the storyline though, oh well. Has a toa of stone ever controlled sand in the story?

[ALVIS]

bonesiii's just stated, repeatedly, that a Toa of Stone controlling sand never came up in story. We have always known him for a learned man, so I'd just go with what he thinks here. The whole debate of who controls sand is because no one has controlled it in story.

[Eragon3443]

Who thinks Black should be stone, not earth, and vice versa?

[bonesiii]

Who thinks Black should be stone, not earth, and vice versa?

I can see a major argument that since dirt is brown, Earth should be brown. Stone is rarely black, though. And black as Earth makes sense because underground, with no light, that's all you see.If I had to choose, I'd probably go with brown as Earth, gray as Stone, and black as Shadow.Really, though, the "main" colors need not be the limits. There can be Po-characters with black in the color schemes, etc.

[Sir Kohran]

Who thinks Black should be stone, not earth, and vice versa?

Really, though, the "main" colors need not be the limits. There can be Po-characters with black in the color schemes, etc.

Yes, the Po-Matoran and Onu-Matoran in the MNOLG shared tan and black, to the point where it was unclear who came from where (does anyone remember the Hafu/Taipu identity crisis?). This crossover was derived from the proximity between earth and stone.What's less easy to explain is why several Ko-Matoran had earth's dark grey in their colour schemes.

[Parazan]

Pohatu could do a moonwalk like Michael Jackson!Well,i've sometimes thought that Earth and Stone were the same,but then i realized this: While Stone is hard and heavy,Earth is soft and easy to dig.-CDP

[Iku]

It really depends on the way they use their powers. In Dark Mirror, Alternate Pohatu was able to send a tremor through Metru Nui, alerting the other members of the resistance to the coup. According to what was stated above, Onua sends tremors, not Pohatu.It is possible that most of Metru Nui is made of stone, so that could be plausible. I believe Onua and Pohatu can control most of the same substances, but the difference lies in their personalities, as how an earth "personality" would take more caution in action than a stone "personality." The distinction between the elements has always been, and probably always will be, very vague. There is just too much overlap.It is possible, though, that stone Toa are just more used to controlling hard earth, or basically, rock. Earth users may not be able to manipulate such a high density substance, though can control it to some extent, and stone Toa are not used to controlling such low-density substances, such as earth, but can also control it to some extent. This is similar to electricity and magnetism. electricity is the movement of electrons, while magnetism is the concentration of electrons (negative charges) opposing an area that lacks electrons (a positively charged area).

[bonesiii]

In Dark Mirror, Alternate Pohatu was able to send a tremor through Metru Nui, alerting the other members of the resistance to the coup. According to what was stated above, Onua sends tremors, not Pohatu.

No, I stated above that either can send tremors depending on what material they send it through. If Pohatu makes the bedrock shake, obviously it will shake the dirt above it too. It's no different than if Pohatu makes a stone and throws it at an enemy -- do you think because the enemy is not made of stone he won't be knocked back? Of course he will be.

It is possible that most of Metru Nui is made of stone, so that could be plausible. I believe Onua and Pohatu can control most of the same substances

Particle size, man. Go back and read my posts, I made this crystal clear.

but the difference lies in their personalities, as how an earth "personality" would take more caution in action than a stone "personality." The distinction between the elements has always been, and probably always will be, very vague. There is just too much overlap.

Their personalities have nothing to do with it -- it's all particle size. But yes, the story itself did not state this; this comes from the story team directly (Greg's answers back when he answered PMs, heh).Still, I must say the difference really doesn't seem that hard, to me, to figure out without Greg's confirmation, so I'm a little baffled that so many don't seem to realize. Just look at the names -- Stone... and Earth. That alone should be clear, at least on the Stone side. Admittedly Earth can refer to both dirt and Stone, but just use logic -- you know because Pohatu is called the Toa of Stone that that must be something separate. What is left for Onua? Dirt. Not rocket science.

It is possible, though, that stone Toa are just more used to controlling hard earth, or basically, rock.

It's not a matter of "used to" -- that's all their power allows them to do.

Earth users may not be able to manipulate such a high density substance, though can control it to some extent

"Control" and "manipulate" are synonyms too, and Earth can't do that (directly) to Stone at all. (Though as we all know, if a stone is surrounded by dirt and you move the dirt, the stone will move too, at least a little.)

and stone Toa are not used to controlling such low-density substances, such as earth, but can also control it to some extent.

Only if by "some extent" you mean indirectly -- move dirt by moving a stone that touches the dirt. Otherwise, not at all.

This is similar to electricity and magnetism. electricity is the movement of electrons, while magnetism is the concentration of electrons (negative charges) opposing an area that lacks electrons (a positively charged area).

Yeah, that's another good comparison to how similar they are, like Water and Ice. But your description is not accurate. A concentration of electrons produces an electrical charge, but not necessarily a magnetic field. That means you're more likely to get zapped by static electricity (or worse, lightning if it's extreme enough) if you touch it.Magnetism is an energy field of magnetos, much smaller particles that are emitted by electrons, at a right angle to a flow of electrons (or an atomic orbit of them). If you make electricity flow through a coil of wire, a magnetic field will result with poles on either end of the coil. Normally magnetic fields are produced by the atomic orbit alignment, so again the poles of electron orbit around every atom are the magnetic poles (and if the atoms of a metal are aligned the same way you get a large-scale magnetic field). This happens regardless of whether electrons are concentrated only in one area or are spread evenly throughout.

[quinlan]

Thank god I'm not the only one who thought this was dumb. And also, it does feel like if they do have to exist, Onua should be stone and Pohatu should be earth. But there's also a bit of a conflict between Kopaka and Gali. I mean, one is the master of ice and the other water. But ice is just cold water.

 

So, only 4 out of the 6 actually make sense. But they could have made so many more elements. I'm not sure why they had to make so many sloppy overlaps lol

[Tahu92]

If it's below ground, Onua controls it.

 

If it's above ground, Pohatu controls it.

 

 

But in all seriousness, Earth is much looser than stone, which is hard and solid. Earth is more fluid.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Tahu92

[Sir Keksalot]

Alright, who brought out the Tryna again?

[Black Six]

Please don't post in topics older than sixty days.

Thread closed for revival.