Toa Nuva strength?

[slifer3000]

We know that the Toa Nuva are the strongest Toa ever, but by what margin would you speculate they are stronger than the average Toa? I used to assume it was a tiny margin, but i feel like the transformation would be useless if it didn't at least increase their strength by 25% or more. 

[TERIDAX941]

I always understood it as strength in regard to their elemental powers, and the ability to use Nuva masks (something no one else can do). Now as far as physical strength, I'm wagering that there would be a boost there too, plus endurance (Onua took blasts from Zaktan, Hakann, Thok and Vezok before he went down, and they all have formidable powers). Pohatu was strong from the get go especially with his legs, but I don't think it was ever expounded upon if and how much their physical strength increased.

[Pohaturon]

I mean, Pohatu Nuva straight up destroyed the whole Dark Hunter HQ with almost no effort simply because it was a fortress made of stone. If all Toa of Stone would be capable of that, no faction opposed to the Toa would ever use stone to construct buildings, so that alone suggests their Nuva transformation multiplied their elemental abilities to be far stronger than that of regular Toa. 

 

Beyond this, I believe as stated above, their general endurance was boosted as well. I think of it as an upgrade across the board, and in all cases their "stats" were doubled at least.

 

[slifer3000]

I mean, Pohatu Nuva straight up destroyed the whole Dark Hunter HQ with almost no effort simply because it was a fortress made of stone. If all Toa of Stone would be capable of that, no faction opposed to the Toa would ever use stone to construct buildings, so that alone suggests their Nuva transformation multiplied their elemental abilities to be far stronger than that of regular Toa. 

 

Beyond this, I believe as stated above, their general endurance was boosted as well. I think of it as an upgrade across the board, and in all cases their "stats" were doubled at least.

 

While their power doubling makes sense, this would mean that they should have steamrolled the Piraka, right? Other than the fact that the Piraka have more experience than the Toa Nuva did, and spent their entire lives killing being much more powerful than themselves, I feel like if the Nuva were that much stronger than normal Toa then they would have murked the Piraka instantly. 

[Ta-metru_defender]

I'm going to go with 'much.'

 

Also, the Toa are, well, Toa. With the Piraka an unknown quantity (iirc), wouldn't they be pulling their punches to assess the threat? At which point it was kinda too late?

[Toatapio Nuva]

Whenever Greg was asked about this in the past, he usually replied with "they can use Kanohi Nuva, which no one else can do". He rarely specifically mentioned their other abilities. He has confirmed that their sheer elemental power was boosted as well, and the Nuva symbols are a key part of this, but I doubt the increase was more than 50%, or even 25%. We've seen regular Toa perform some impressive feats with their elemental powers, so doubling that power would have far greater consequences than what we've seen with the Nuva. Judging by old Greg answers, the Nuva "upgrade" was more about greater control (with both the Kanohi Nuva and the elements) than power. This doesn't mean there wasn't a boost in power at all, but rather that it probably wasn't that dramatic. I would estimate it to be at around 25%, or slightly lower.

[Toa of Italy]

The ability to use Kanohi Nuva should not be lightly dismissed. Not only are they more powerful than regular Kanohi (especially the Mask of Speed, which can be used to pass through solid matter), but most importantly their power can be shared and not just with other Toa Nuva but with anyone, an ability which has enormous potential if applied correctly.

 

In terms of elemental powers, I don't know. At the beginning, it was implied that the powers of the Nuva were stronger than before (but that, as a tradeoff, they were tied to te Nuva Symbols), but we never perceived this explicitly and we saw ordinary Toa accomplish equally impressive feats, both in terms of power and control (Helryx's abilities, for instance, seemed to be way beyond Gali Nuva's). Only in 2008 did Greg introduce a distinction (I think he did it exactly to solve the problem of differentiating Toa Nuva from ordinary Toa), saying that when they transformed the Nuva gained the ability to create attacks which would only manifest themselves at a given time (Pohatu setting the Dark Hunter fortress to collapse after an hour, Tahu creating a fireball that appears only after a few minutes...).

[Pohaturon]

 

I mean, Pohatu Nuva straight up destroyed the whole Dark Hunter HQ with almost no effort simply because it was a fortress made of stone. If all Toa of Stone would be capable of that, no faction opposed to the Toa would ever use stone to construct buildings, so that alone suggests their Nuva transformation multiplied their elemental abilities to be far stronger than that of regular Toa. 

 

Beyond this, I believe as stated above, their general endurance was boosted as well. I think of it as an upgrade across the board, and in all cases their "stats" were doubled at least.

 

While their power doubling makes sense, this would mean that they should have steamrolled the Piraka, right? Other than the fact that the Piraka have more experience than the Toa Nuva did, and spent their entire lives killing being much more powerful than themselves, I feel like if the Nuva were that much stronger than normal Toa then they would have murked the Piraka instantly. 

 

I don't perfectly recall how that encounter went down, but I believe it was a mix of the Piraka surprising/ambushing the Toa, the Toa underestimating them, and story convenience. Based on the feats accomplished by the Nuva prior to, and after, being wiped by the Piraka suggests that defeat was just a contrived reason to put them out of the picture in order to sell the Inika toys give Jaller and co time to shine.

 

[slifer3000]

The ability to use Kanohi Nuva should not be lightly dismissed. Not only are they more powerful than regular Kanohi (especially the Mask of Speed, which can be used to pass through solid matter), but most importantly their power can be shared and not just with other Toa Nuva but with anyone, an ability which has enormous potential if applied correctly.

 

In terms of elemental powers, I don't know. At the beginning, it was implied that the powers of the Nuva were stronger than before (but that, as a tradeoff, they were tied to te Nuva Symbols), but we never perceived this explicitly and we saw ordinary Toa accomplish equally impressive feats, both in terms of power and control (Helryx's abilities, for instance, seemed to be way beyond Gali Nuva's). Only in 2008 did Greg introduce a distinction (I think he did it exactly to solve the problem of differentiating Toa Nuva from ordinary Toa), saying that when they transformed the Nuva gained the ability to create attacks which would only manifest themselves at a given time (Pohatu setting the Dark Hunter fortress to collapse after an hour, Tahu creating a fireball that appears only after a few minutes...).

 

But this still doesnt make as much sense as what Pohaturon said. If any Toa of Stone, or even a couple of them combined could destroy an entire fortress, then no one should have been able to stand up to Toa ever, since they would be unable to build lasting footholds. 

[Toa of Italy]

 

The ability to use Kanohi Nuva should not be lightly dismissed. Not only are they more powerful than regular Kanohi (especially the Mask of Speed, which can be used to pass through solid matter), but most importantly their power can be shared and not just with other Toa Nuva but with anyone, an ability which has enormous potential if applied correctly.

 

In terms of elemental powers, I don't know. At the beginning, it was implied that the powers of the Nuva were stronger than before (but that, as a tradeoff, they were tied to te Nuva Symbols), but we never perceived this explicitly and we saw ordinary Toa accomplish equally impressive feats, both in terms of power and control (Helryx's abilities, for instance, seemed to be way beyond Gali Nuva's). Only in 2008 did Greg introduce a distinction (I think he did it exactly to solve the problem of differentiating Toa Nuva from ordinary Toa), saying that when they transformed the Nuva gained the ability to create attacks which would only manifest themselves at a given time (Pohatu setting the Dark Hunter fortress to collapse after an hour, Tahu creating a fireball that appears only after a few minutes...).

 

But this still doesnt make as much sense as what Pohaturon said. If any Toa of Stone, or even a couple of them combined could destroy an entire fortress, then no one should have been able to stand up to Toa ever, since they would be unable to build lasting footholds. 

 

 

Well, I don't know about that. Take this quote from Maze of Shadows:

 

 

True to his word, Matau did not wait for the Rahi Nui to attack. Aiming his aero slicers, he sent twin cyclones at the beast. They struck with sufficient power to tear the Coliseum from its foundation and send it hurtling into the sea.

 

Now, Matau was an ordinary Toa of Air and the Coliseum is a pretty big building, so if we take this quote literally we deduce that an ordinary Toa does have the power to destroy a fortress or a building of similar size. Another example, always concerning the Coliseum, is when in Dwellers in Darkness the Toa Hagah and the Toa Mahri dig a hole through the foundations of the Coliseum; Kualus, Bomonga and Hewkii (all three ordinary Toa) cooperate to keep the building intact and at the end Hewkii is left alone to keep it in the air with his mask power, which I'd warrant to be equal or weaker to that of an ordinary Toa of Gravity. Now, if a Toa of Gravity could lift the Coliseum into the air, he could also destroy it.

 

To be honest, I think that when writing remarks or scenes like these Greg never really bothered to remain consistent with previous (far more limited) displays of elemental power and exagerated to make the story more spectacular.

The only explanation I can think of that would reconcile enormous manifestations of power such as these with the defeat of the Toa Nuva at the hands of enemies like the Piraka is that since Toa don't kill, they would not usually unleash such forces directly against an enemy (Matau's cyclones would be an exception to this), for they wouldn't be able to maintain sufficient control to make sure that their opponent did not die.

[Lenny7092]

Well, I'd think that the Toa Nuva are 50% stronger. However, Each Piraka seems to be able to take on two Toa. 

Let's look at Super Sonic from Sonic the Hedgehog, Samurai Jack's sword in Samurai Jack (in one episode where Jack was fighting against eight assassin robots with his new mechanical arm armor), and Megatron/Galvatron from Transformers. They all seem to increase their power by at least 50%, too, I believe. I would think that the Toa Nuva are like that. 

 

Also, Gali used a Nova Blast to destroy the island of Karzahni. She's a Toa Nuva, so I believe that's how it happened. I'd imagine an ordinary Toa of Water to use a Nova blast to destroy the Core Processor in the Great Spirit Robot (Helryx thought about that once). 

 

Speaking of math, look up Biosector01 to look at the Toa Nuva's Bionicle.com stats. They may give you a good estimation of an ordinary Toa's power when you cute a third or half from each of the Toa's stat bars.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Lenny7092

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

There are certain factors bionicle never clarified for nuva abilities.

 

• how much depth is required before the regular kaukau is at maximum limit.
• if the hau nuva can withstand attacks for longer without deactivating like it did from a standard fragmentation beam in the movies.
• how much strength the default pakari grants and also for the nuva. (the nuva version only mentions absolute limit of one's body but is it individualised? but i think it needs better explanation similar to super sayan multiplyers * base power in dragon ball)
• how fast the kakama nuva can go when running with it.
• how much physical strength pohatu has and is capable of lifting by himself.
• if the others can learn similar techniques similar to pohatu's stone bomb trick.

Edited September 26, 2017 by necross hordika

[slifer3000]

 

 

The ability to use Kanohi Nuva should not be lightly dismissed. Not only are they more powerful than regular Kanohi (especially the Mask of Speed, which can be used to pass through solid matter), but most importantly their power can be shared and not just with other Toa Nuva but with anyone, an ability which has enormous potential if applied correctly.

 

In terms of elemental powers, I don't know. At the beginning, it was implied that the powers of the Nuva were stronger than before (but that, as a tradeoff, they were tied to te Nuva Symbols), but we never perceived this explicitly and we saw ordinary Toa accomplish equally impressive feats, both in terms of power and control (Helryx's abilities, for instance, seemed to be way beyond Gali Nuva's). Only in 2008 did Greg introduce a distinction (I think he did it exactly to solve the problem of differentiating Toa Nuva from ordinary Toa), saying that when they transformed the Nuva gained the ability to create attacks which would only manifest themselves at a given time (Pohatu setting the Dark Hunter fortress to collapse after an hour, Tahu creating a fireball that appears only after a few minutes...).

 

But this still doesnt make as much sense as what Pohaturon said. If any Toa of Stone, or even a couple of them combined could destroy an entire fortress, then no one should have been able to stand up to Toa ever, since they would be unable to build lasting footholds. 

 

 

Well, I don't know about that. Take this quote from Maze of Shadows:

 

 

True to his word, Matau did not wait for the Rahi Nui to attack. Aiming his aero slicers, he sent twin cyclones at the beast. They struck with sufficient power to tear the Coliseum from its foundation and send it hurtling into the sea.

 

Now, Matau was an ordinary Toa of Air and the Coliseum is a pretty big building, so if we take this quote literally we deduce that an ordinary Toa does have the power to destroy a fortress or a building of similar size. Another example, always concerning the Coliseum, is when in Dwellers in Darkness the Toa Hagah and the Toa Mahri dig a hole through the foundations of the Coliseum; Kualus, Bomonga and Hewkii (all three ordinary Toa) cooperate to keep the building intact and at the end Hewkii is left alone to keep it in the air with his mask power, which I'd warrant to be equal or weaker to that of an ordinary Toa of Gravity. Now, if a Toa of Gravity could lift the Coliseum into the air, he could also destroy it.

 

To be honest, I think that when writing remarks or scenes like these Greg never really bothered to remain consistent with previous (far more limited) displays of elemental power and exagerated to make the story more spectacular.

The only explanation I can think of that would reconcile enormous manifestations of power such as these with the defeat of the Toa Nuva at the hands of enemies like the Piraka is that since Toa don't kill, they would not usually unleash such forces directly against an enemy (Matau's cyclones would be an exception to this), for they wouldn't be able to maintain sufficient control to make sure that their opponent did not die.

 

I would assume with power at the level of those examples, if we are taking them literally, Toa would be able to threaten a Makuta alone. But yet, we are led to believe that the Toa are essentially one sixth of the strength of a Makuta, since it took 6 to beat teridax on Metru-Nui. Of course, we can't assume that this is more than just speculation.

 

Now with the Toa Nuva, i imagine they must be considerably more powerful than normal Toa for one more reason: none of them died in Karda Nui. Let's assume we go with the whole idea that the Makuta let the Toa win (which is probably true.) The Makuta could have still killed two or three Toa and allowed them to achieve their goal. The Makuta despise Toa, and killing them brings most of them pleasure. But yet they didn't kill a single one. And in numerous exchanges with the Makuta of Karda Nui, the Toa seemed to come out on top, particularly when Mutran got frozen, or Antroz had his armor damaged by his own lasers, or Tahu had Gorast imprisoned and seemingly in a position to execute her. The Makuta probably allowed the Toa to win, but NOBODY lets someone inflict serious harm to them.

 

The boxing match between Floyd Mayweather and Conor McGregor is a perfect analogy. Floyd let Conor look like he had a shot. But Floyd did NOT let Conor land a clean uppercut; Conor earned that one. 

 

Because most of the Makuta immediately shrugged off the Toa Nuva as no threat, but later found themselves in contested combat with them, I'd assume the Toa Nuva are more formidable by a margin large enough to consider. 

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

 

 

 

The ability to use Kanohi Nuva should not be lightly dismissed. Not only are they more powerful than regular Kanohi (especially the Mask of Speed, which can be used to pass through solid matter), but most importantly their power can be shared and not just with other Toa Nuva but with anyone, an ability which has enormous potential if applied correctly.

 

In terms of elemental powers, I don't know. At the beginning, it was implied that the powers of the Nuva were stronger than before (but that, as a tradeoff, they were tied to te Nuva Symbols), but we never perceived this explicitly and we saw ordinary Toa accomplish equally impressive feats, both in terms of power and control (Helryx's abilities, for instance, seemed to be way beyond Gali Nuva's). Only in 2008 did Greg introduce a distinction (I think he did it exactly to solve the problem of differentiating Toa Nuva from ordinary Toa), saying that when they transformed the Nuva gained the ability to create attacks which would only manifest themselves at a given time (Pohatu setting the Dark Hunter fortress to collapse after an hour, Tahu creating a fireball that appears only after a few minutes...).

 

But this still doesnt make as much sense as what Pohaturon said. If any Toa of Stone, or even a couple of them combined could destroy an entire fortress, then no one should have been able to stand up to Toa ever, since they would be unable to build lasting footholds. 

 

 

Well, I don't know about that. Take this quote from Maze of Shadows:

 

 

True to his word, Matau did not wait for the Rahi Nui to attack. Aiming his aero slicers, he sent twin cyclones at the beast. They struck with sufficient power to tear the Coliseum from its foundation and send it hurtling into the sea.

 

Now, Matau was an ordinary Toa of Air and the Coliseum is a pretty big building, so if we take this quote literally we deduce that an ordinary Toa does have the power to destroy a fortress or a building of similar size. Another example, always concerning the Coliseum, is when in Dwellers in Darkness the Toa Hagah and the Toa Mahri dig a hole through the foundations of the Coliseum; Kualus, Bomonga and Hewkii (all three ordinary Toa) cooperate to keep the building intact and at the end Hewkii is left alone to keep it in the air with his mask power, which I'd warrant to be equal or weaker to that of an ordinary Toa of Gravity. Now, if a Toa of Gravity could lift the Coliseum into the air, he could also destroy it.

 

To be honest, I think that when writing remarks or scenes like these Greg never really bothered to remain consistent with previous (far more limited) displays of elemental power and exagerated to make the story more spectacular.

The only explanation I can think of that would reconcile enormous manifestations of power such as these with the defeat of the Toa Nuva at the hands of enemies like the Piraka is that since Toa don't kill, they would not usually unleash such forces directly against an enemy (Matau's cyclones would be an exception to this), for they wouldn't be able to maintain sufficient control to make sure that their opponent did not die.

 

I would assume with power at the level of those examples, if we are taking them literally, Toa would be able to threaten a Makuta alone. But yet, we are led to believe that the Toa are essentially one sixth of the strength of a Makuta, since it took 6 to beat teridax on Metru-Nui. Of course, we can't assume that this is more than just speculation.

 

Now with the Toa Nuva, i imagine they must be considerably more powerful than normal Toa for one more reason: none of them died in Karda Nui. Let's assume we go with the whole idea that the Makuta let the Toa win (which is probably true.) The Makuta could have still killed two or three Toa and allowed them to achieve their goal. The Makuta despise Toa, and killing them brings most of them pleasure. But yet they didn't kill a single one. And in numerous exchanges with the Makuta of Karda Nui, the Toa seemed to come out on top, particularly when Mutran got frozen, or Antroz had his armor damaged by his own lasers, or Tahu had Gorast imprisoned and seemingly in a position to execute her. The Makuta probably allowed the Toa to win, but NOBODY lets someone inflict serious harm to them.

 

The boxing match between Floyd Mayweather and Conor McGregor is a perfect analogy. Floyd let Conor look like he had a shot. But Floyd did NOT let Conor land a clean uppercut; Conor earned that one. 

 

Because most of the Makuta immediately shrugged off the Toa Nuva as no threat, but later found themselves in contested combat with them, I'd assume the Toa Nuva are more formidable by a margin large enough to consider. 

 

Good point, if the makuta had really wanted to they could've dropped the defeatist act anytime they wanted, however the toa managed to escape instead of truly fighting for a extended period.

I'd also say each individual toa nuva was roughly on equal ground with the 6 main karda nui makuta but Takanuva and Toa Ignika and the vehicles gave them a much needed firepower to even the odds.

Edited September 26, 2017 by necross hordika