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The viability of "mana" as an element for G3?


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#1 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 06 2018 - 11:06 PM

So I've been doing some thinking, and I've been tossing around alternative element ideas for my own G3 concept, and one of the potential secondary elements I concocted was "Mana." I wanted your guys' second opinions on this idea because I'm waffling back and forth on it. Before you give me an answer, I need to clarify a couple things:

First, an "element" is defined as a force or component of nature. For example, Stone represents sand and loose rock, as well as the phenomena associated with them; and Earth represents geologic activity, magma, and soil. This definition enables me to dance around the science-grounded questions raised by G1's more vague definition of an element.

 

Second, Mana would be defined as the element of spiritual and life energy, and is present in some parts of the natural world, similar to the Hawaiian/Tahitian spiritual concept of mana. I figure it's only appropriate, given that Bionicle initially drew on Polynesian/Melanesian culture. Mana, then, is very much a part of nature in this hypothetical world, just as Ice or Water, as it would be present in living beings, which are absolutely natural. In my G3, Toa of Mana would receive a few powers from G1's Psionics, as well as some other miscellaneous powers such as necromancy that otherwise wouldn't fit under any element. (If necromancy is a power no Toa should have, then it can always be reserved for a mask power like the Tryna; it does not have to be element-specific, I simply wanted to think of more applications for Mana control.) Users could not literally create or destroy life, but would be able to extend their life-force to control inanimate objects, or even interact with the recently-departed. This addresses the ethical issues of a "life" element; they do not control life, but they can affect a living creature's life-force and simulate the presence of life.

 

What do you guys think? Is this a valid element idea, or am I just trying too hard to justify an idea that's not even worth it?


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#2 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Jan 07 2018 - 02:43 AM

If mana is present as an aspect of the natural world, I'd assume it would be present in all the other elements rather than as a separate element. Maybe the difference between a Toa and Matoran would be the amount of mana they have? 


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#3 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 07 2018 - 10:55 AM

If mana is present as an aspect of the natural world, I'd assume it would be present in all the other elements rather than as a separate element. Maybe the difference between a Toa and Matoran would be the amount of mana they have? 

Wait, are you saying it would be present in all Matoran of every element, or are you saying it would literally be present in every other element? Like, it would be in every instance of Stone, Ice, etc.? Because that's not really what I'm getting at. Polynesian concepts of mana hold that it's present in some natural locations and exists within living things, but is not universally-present. A Toa of Mana would have psychic powers and could make other beings experience stimuli of their choosing; they can control mana like a Toa of Fire can manipulate fire. Their powers would be limited, of course, but the presence of that power is what separates them from Matoran.


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#4 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Jan 07 2018 - 04:02 PM

Encyclopedia Britannica says the Polynesians believe mana to be present in all things, animate or inanimate, but to varying degrees (https://www.britanni...place/Polynesia).

 

I think it makes more sense to say that a Toa of stone manipulates the mana of a stone when he controls it, instead of defining mana as a separate element. The closest element we have to mana already is probably Life, rather than psionics, given that the entire Matoran world was alive. (It just occurred to me that it would have been cool if Toa Ignika could manipulate all the elements as parts of "life!" Would have been a big hint that the whole world was one big life form.)

 

But yeah, I'm pretty sure the hard line between animate and inanimate is part of the modern West's materialist worldview, influenced by Descartes, Christianity, etc. 

My understanding of mana is that it isn't distinguished between "dead" matter and "things with mana," but by matters of degree. 


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#5 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 07 2018 - 05:23 PM

Encyclopedia Britannica says the Polynesians believe mana to be present in all things, animate or inanimate, but to varying degrees (https://www.britanni...place/Polynesia).

 

I think it makes more sense to say that a Toa of stone manipulates the mana of a stone when he controls it, instead of defining mana as a separate element. The closest element we have to mana already is probably Life, rather than psionics, given that the entire Matoran world was alive. (It just occurred to me that it would have been cool if Toa Ignika could manipulate all the elements as parts of "life!" Would have been a big hint that the whole world was one big life form.)

 

But yeah, I'm pretty sure the hard line between animate and inanimate is part of the modern West's materialist worldview, influenced by Descartes, Christianity, etc. 

My understanding of mana is that it isn't distinguished between "dead" matter and "things with mana," but by matters of degree. 

Welp, I guess that's what I get for acting like I know about cultures I don't. However, is it necessary to say that Toa manipulate the mana of their respective elements rather than recognizing mana as an elemental manifestation of Life, but without the overpoweredness or ethical quandries of characters like Ignika? And again, I ask because a mana-based element has potential for niche powers that otherwise wouldn't be represented by any element.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to present whatever counter-arguments I can to get the most information from your side that I can.


Edited by Sir Keksalot, Jan 07 2018 - 06:18 PM.

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#6 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 12:21 PM

Ha, you're not being difficult. If you want to make it an element, go for it! If it were me I'd make it more of a meta-element, but it sounds like you have some story ideas in mind so don't think you have to appeal to me.  :)


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#7 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 06:16 PM

Ha, you're not being difficult. If you want to make it an element, go for it! If it were me I'd make it more of a meta-element, but it sounds like you have some story ideas in mind so don't think you have to appeal to me.  :)

Define "meta-element." Like, do you mean something more traditional, like the OG elements, or something that plays more on the nature of the work itself?

 

I'm not trying to appeal to you, I'm trying to get the best argument I can out of you. I want go go through with this, but I don't know if it's actually a good idea. Hence this thread--I want second opinions because I'm rather distrustful of my own judgment.


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#8 Offline Matoro11

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 07:42 PM

As mentioned above, I think it should be considered a meta-element, a higher order element that only a higher order being can control. It would be considered highly unethical by G1 standards, and I think the character would have to be given the full extent of the element's power, ethical quandries and all. I think Greg and the writers were well aware of the power of an element like that, and that's why the whole Mask of Life saga was so serious, and why they established Heremus (I think) as a character
My suggestion would be to have a character like a great being or Tren Krom type character who tries to control life, rather than a Toa.

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#9 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 08:27 PM

As mentioned above, I think it should be considered a meta-element, a higher order element that only a higher order being can control. It would be considered highly unethical by G1 standards, and I think the character would have to be given the full extent of the element's power, ethical quandries and all. I think Greg and the writers were well aware of the power of an element like that, and that's why the whole Mask of Life saga was so serious, and why they established Heremus (I think) as a character
My suggestion would be to have a character like a great being or Tren Krom type character who tries to control life, rather than a Toa.

I've already said how I'd work around that: Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive. They cannot create life or kill living things with their powers. Mana is meant to fill G1's niche of Psionics: a wastebin for powers that'd be cool for a Toa, but which don't fit with any other element. I also can't think of any other good element ideas; I've already streamlined the system and narrowed it down to 12 others, including secondary elements, and I'm still unsure if my justification for keeping Stone separate is sound. I just need one more secondary element, and right now, Mana is the only candidate I like.


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#10 Offline Valendale

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 09:25 PM

I feel like even though mana has lost most of its religious context, LEGO would still want to stay away from it, especially after the controversy over cultural elements within G1.


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#11 Offline Ta-metru_defender

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 10:37 PM

The way you describe it, it sounds more to me like a mask power than an element. Would make a pretty cool, mask, something like the power of animation.


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#12 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 10:39 PM

I feel like even though mana has lost most of its religious context, LEGO would still want to stay away from it, especially after the controversy over cultural elements within G1.

Well, I'm not Lego, and I don't consider that a concern with my work, if I ever get around to doing anything. I'm more concerned whether it makes logical sense as an elemental power, assuming it works like mana in Polynesian religion and has unique applications when used by a Toa, but is not overpowered and doesn't come with ethical issues. Not only that, but with the media's current readiness to incorporate historical and even modern religion in games, TV, and films, I doubt the same controversy would take place again today; and if it did, it would be inconsequential for Lego. Look at the uproar that happened when Hi-Rez added Hindu gods to Smite. Not only did it not stop them, they added Ganesha last year, and it was actually rather well-received. Well, as well-received as anything can be among Smite players, that is.

 

 

The way you describe it, it sounds more to me like a mask power than an element. Would make a pretty cool, mask, something like the power of animation.

 

OH

MY GOD

 

Quoting makes no sense on this forum. Anyway, any element can sound like a mask power. Gravity in particular comes to mind. However, in that case, you can justify Gravity as an element by listing it as the manipulation of spacetime. If mana is omnipresent in nature, it stands to reason that it could exist as an element, and that Toa of this element could use it for unique applications.


Edited by Sir Keksalot, Jan 08 2018 - 10:46 PM.

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#13 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Jan 08 2018 - 11:51 PM

 

Ha, you're not being difficult. If you want to make it an element, go for it! If it were me I'd make it more of a meta-element, but it sounds like you have some story ideas in mind so don't think you have to appeal to me.  :)

Define "meta-element." Like, do you mean something more traditional, like the OG elements, or something that plays more on the nature of the work itself?

 

Not the nature of the work—I don't mean "meta" in the postmodern sense, just the basic meaning of "one level beyond." 

 

If Toa manipulate the mana of water, air, earth, etc, they're basically tapping into the life energy within each of those elements. This makes sense because the traditional Polynesian worldview is animistic. Thus I'd assume a Toa of Mana would be able to manipulate the energy in everything, both inside of actual beings and the elements. Sort of a turbo-charged Toa Ignika, or perhaps like the Forest Spirit in Princess Mononoke, if you've seen that movie.

 

It's like having a Toa of Magic, which is pretty much just a Toa of All Elements since magic is the root of all the other Toa's elemental powers already. It's a pretty cool idea but maybe not for just any garden-variety Toa. 

 

 

EDIT:

Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive.

 

This part's my main issue, because making inanimate objects come to life is already what every other Toa does. Either a Toa of Mana would be able to control all the other elements, or you'd have to search hard for things that aren't made of the other elements, which depending on how you define them is either impossible or just very awkward and limited. If Toa of Mana can control everything except for Earth, Fire, Stone, Water, Air and Ice, is it really mana they're controlling at that point? Or are they just the Hufflepuff of Toa? 


Edited by Wrinkledlion X, Jan 08 2018 - 11:58 PM.

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#14 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 09 2018 - 11:12 AM

 

 

Ha, you're not being difficult. If you want to make it an element, go for it! If it were me I'd make it more of a meta-element, but it sounds like you have some story ideas in mind so don't think you have to appeal to me.  :)

Define "meta-element." Like, do you mean something more traditional, like the OG elements, or something that plays more on the nature of the work itself?

 

Not the nature of the work—I don't mean "meta" in the postmodern sense, just the basic meaning of "one level beyond." 

 

If Toa manipulate the mana of water, air, earth, etc, they're basically tapping into the life energy within each of those elements. This makes sense because the traditional Polynesian worldview is animistic. Thus I'd assume a Toa of Mana would be able to manipulate the energy in everything, both inside of actual beings and the elements. Sort of a turbo-charged Toa Ignika, or perhaps like the Forest Spirit in Princess Mononoke, if you've seen that movie.

 

It's like having a Toa of Magic, which is pretty much just a Toa of All Elements since magic is the root of all the other Toa's elemental powers already. It's a pretty cool idea but maybe not for just any garden-variety Toa. 

 

 

Ah, that makes sense. I suppose that that's necessary if I'm ever going to want to say how Toa control their elements. Mana, then, would have to be pretty special for this reason.

Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive.

 

This part's my main issue, because making inanimate objects come to life is already what every other Toa does. Either a Toa of Mana would be able to control all the other elements, or you'd have to search hard for things that aren't made of the other elements, which depending on how you define them is either impossible or just very awkward and limited. If Toa of Mana can control everything except for Earth, Fire, Stone, Water, Air and Ice, is it really mana they're controlling at that point? Or are they just the Hufflepuff of Toa? 

 

I believe I didn't make myself clear enough. Toa of Mana cannot control the material substances and energies of the world like other Toa. They can't make rocks fly around, and they can't create matter. What they can do, however, is connect their mana with that of other beings and objects. This grants them most powers from G1's Psionics, except for telekinesis, and the power to make objects assemble and walk around as if they were alive. In reality, they do not bring things to life, they simply make it act and make its own decisions like it is, thus giving them a small squad of allies on a whim.


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#15 Offline Matoro11

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Posted Jan 09 2018 - 11:25 AM


As mentioned above, I think it should be considered a meta-element, a higher order element that only a higher order being can control. It would be considered highly unethical by G1 standards, and I think the character would have to be given the full extent of the element's power, ethical quandries and all. I think Greg and the writers were well aware of the power of an element like that, and that's why the whole Mask of Life saga was so serious, and why they established Heremus (I think) as a character
My suggestion would be to have a character like a great being or Tren Krom type character who tries to control life, rather than a Toa.

I've already said how I'd work around that: Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive. They cannot create life or kill living things with their powers. Mana is meant to fill G1's niche of Psionics: a wastebin for powers that'd be cool for a Toa, but which don't fit with any other element. I also can't think of any other good element ideas; I've already streamlined the system and narrowed it down to 12 others, including secondary elements, and I'm still unsure if my justification for keeping Stone separate is sound. I just need one more secondary element, and right now, Mana is the only candidate I like.

Then give psionics their powers back. You can't set two elements apart from one abother than give the Toa the same abilities. If you want to set mana apart, it needs to come with the ability to control life forces, otherwise it's just like Orde wearing a Mask of Reanimation. It would make a great side story, something like a villain trying to tamper with it, or one of the GB helping the Toa on a quest, but you're limiting it's potential by just sticking it to Toa.

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#16 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 09 2018 - 01:07 PM

 

 

As mentioned above, I think it should be considered a meta-element, a higher order element that only a higher order being can control. It would be considered highly unethical by G1 standards, and I think the character would have to be given the full extent of the element's power, ethical quandries and all. I think Greg and the writers were well aware of the power of an element like that, and that's why the whole Mask of Life saga was so serious, and why they established Heremus (I think) as a character
My suggestion would be to have a character like a great being or Tren Krom type character who tries to control life, rather than a Toa.

I've already said how I'd work around that: Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive. They cannot create life or kill living things with their powers. Mana is meant to fill G1's niche of Psionics: a wastebin for powers that'd be cool for a Toa, but which don't fit with any other element. I also can't think of any other good element ideas; I've already streamlined the system and narrowed it down to 12 others, including secondary elements, and I'm still unsure if my justification for keeping Stone separate is sound. I just need one more secondary element, and right now, Mana is the only candidate I like.

Then give psionics their powers back. You can't set two elements apart from one abother than give the Toa the same abilities. If you want to set mana apart, it needs to come with the ability to control life forces, otherwise it's just like Orde wearing a Mask of Reanimation. It would make a great side story, something like a villain trying to tamper with it, or one of the GB helping the Toa on a quest, but you're limiting it's potential by just sticking it to Toa.

 

Psionics doesn't work as an element because it's not really a part of nature, unlike every other element. Thoughts don't exist, they're self-contained within the heads of animal life. For my G3 concept, it's getting the boot for that reason. To fill its niche, I am proposing Mana as a substitute. Yeah, it is like Orde with a Tryna, but with the aforementioned worldbuilding, it makes more sense as an element because it's a part of nature.

 

I don't see how I'm limiting its potential by granting specific Toa limited control over it; there can be beings with control over any other element that are far stronger than Toa of that element, and every Toa has to have only limited control over their element, or else they become overpowered gods. Imagine a Toa of Earth with no limits on his power. Such a Toa could tear apart the planet with a thought, then make 20 new planets to take its place. That's insane. However, Toa of Earth can only manipulate so much of their element at once because they have limited elemental energy, and the same rule applies to creating their element. Thus, their powers are limited because they can't use their power to do everything imaginable. To keep Mana balanced, similar rules would apply--they cannot create or destroy life because that takes too much energy, but they can connect with the mana of other organisms and objects to read or manipulate thoughts and make inanimate objects into golem-like constructs.


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#17 Offline Matoro11

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Posted Jan 09 2018 - 03:38 PM


As mentioned above, I think it should be considered a meta-element, a higher order element that only a higher order being can control. It would be considered highly unethical by G1 standards, and I think the character would have to be given the full extent of the element's power, ethical quandries and all. I think Greg and the writers were well aware of the power of an element like that, and that's why the whole Mask of Life saga was so serious, and why they established Heremus (I think) as a character
My suggestion would be to have a character like a great being or Tren Krom type character who tries to control life, rather than a Toa.

I've already said how I'd work around that: Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive. They cannot create life or kill living things with their powers. Mana is meant to fill G1's niche of Psionics: a wastebin for powers that'd be cool for a Toa, but which don't fit with any other element. I also can't think of any other good element ideas; I've already streamlined the system and narrowed it down to 12 others, including secondary elements, and I'm still unsure if my justification for keeping Stone separate is sound. I just need one more secondary element, and right now, Mana is the only candidate I like.
Then give psionics their powers back. You can't set two elements apart from one abother than give the Toa the same abilities. If you want to set mana apart, it needs to come with the ability to control life forces, otherwise it's just like Orde wearing a Mask of Reanimation. It would make a great side story, something like a villain trying to tamper with it, or one of the GB helping the Toa on a quest, but you're limiting it's potential by just sticking it to Toa.
Psionics doesn't work as an element because it's not really a part of nature, unlike every other element. Thoughts don't exist, they're self-contained within the heads of animal life. For my G3 concept, it's getting the boot for that reason. To fill its niche, I am proposing Mana as a substitute. Yeah, it is like Orde with a Tryna, but with the aforementioned worldbuilding, it makes more sense as an element because it's a part of nature.

I don't see how I'm limiting its potential by granting specific Toa limited control over it; there can be beings with control over any other element that are far stronger than Toa of that element, and every Toa has to have only limited control over their element, or else they become overpowered gods. Imagine a Toa of Earth with no limits on his power. Such a Toa could tear apart the planet with a thought, then make 20 new planets to take its place. That's insane. However, Toa of Earth can only manipulate so much of their element at once because they have limited elemental energy, and the same rule applies to creating their element. Thus, their powers are limited because they can't use their power to do everything imaginable. To keep Mana balanced, similar rules would apply--they cannot create or destroy life because that takes too much energy, but they can connect with the mana of other organisms and objects to read or manipulate thoughts and make inanimate objects into golem-like constructs.

You're missing the point. It's not about the Toa doing absurd things with their elemental powers. The Toa have control over the basic, essential elements (moving rocks, shooting fire, manipulating air) of their...well, element. If you're idea of Mana is the LIFE FORCE of things, then logically, the characters have to have control over the LIFE FORCE of things, meaning that it would have to entail control over life and death. G1 specifically states that Toa aren't supposed to kill, so logically, and as you mentioned previously, that power would be stripped. What it ends up being is a glorified mask power. It's a great idea for a villain or side character, but not a good idea for a Toa power.

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#18 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 09 2018 - 06:04 PM

 

 

 

 

As mentioned above, I think it should be considered a meta-element, a higher order element that only a higher order being can control. It would be considered highly unethical by G1 standards, and I think the character would have to be given the full extent of the element's power, ethical quandries and all. I think Greg and the writers were well aware of the power of an element like that, and that's why the whole Mask of Life saga was so serious, and why they established Heremus (I think) as a character
My suggestion would be to have a character like a great being or Tren Krom type character who tries to control life, rather than a Toa.

I've already said how I'd work around that: Toa of Mana cannot control life and death, they merely receive psionic powers and can make inanimate objects act as if they were alive. They cannot create life or kill living things with their powers. Mana is meant to fill G1's niche of Psionics: a wastebin for powers that'd be cool for a Toa, but which don't fit with any other element. I also can't think of any other good element ideas; I've already streamlined the system and narrowed it down to 12 others, including secondary elements, and I'm still unsure if my justification for keeping Stone separate is sound. I just need one more secondary element, and right now, Mana is the only candidate I like.
Then give psionics their powers back. You can't set two elements apart from one abother than give the Toa the same abilities. If you want to set mana apart, it needs to come with the ability to control life forces, otherwise it's just like Orde wearing a Mask of Reanimation. It would make a great side story, something like a villain trying to tamper with it, or one of the GB helping the Toa on a quest, but you're limiting it's potential by just sticking it to Toa.
Psionics doesn't work as an element because it's not really a part of nature, unlike every other element. Thoughts don't exist, they're self-contained within the heads of animal life. For my G3 concept, it's getting the boot for that reason. To fill its niche, I am proposing Mana as a substitute. Yeah, it is like Orde with a Tryna, but with the aforementioned worldbuilding, it makes more sense as an element because it's a part of nature.

I don't see how I'm limiting its potential by granting specific Toa limited control over it; there can be beings with control over any other element that are far stronger than Toa of that element, and every Toa has to have only limited control over their element, or else they become overpowered gods. Imagine a Toa of Earth with no limits on his power. Such a Toa could tear apart the planet with a thought, then make 20 new planets to take its place. That's insane. However, Toa of Earth can only manipulate so much of their element at once because they have limited elemental energy, and the same rule applies to creating their element. Thus, their powers are limited because they can't use their power to do everything imaginable. To keep Mana balanced, similar rules would apply--they cannot create or destroy life because that takes too much energy, but they can connect with the mana of other organisms and objects to read or manipulate thoughts and make inanimate objects into golem-like constructs.

You're missing the point. It's not about the Toa doing absurd things with their elemental powers. The Toa have control over the basic, essential elements (moving rocks, shooting fire, manipulating air) of their...well, element. If you're idea of Mana is the LIFE FORCE of things, then logically, the characters have to have control over the LIFE FORCE of things, meaning that it would have to entail control over life and death. G1 specifically states that Toa aren't supposed to kill, so logically, and as you mentioned previously, that power would be stripped. What it ends up being is a glorified mask power. It's a great idea for a villain or side character, but not a good idea for a Toa power.

 

Okay, I think I get what you're saying now. Mana, as an element, comes with a powerset that's too different from the other elements. Along with the aforementioned idea of using the concept of mana to explain how elemental powers even work, I'd say that this has me convinced that, however creative this idea is, it comes with problems you don't even get with gravity, and so I shouldn't go through with it. Until someone gives me a good argument against these concerns, it seems I have what I came for. Maybe 12 elements is enough.


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#19 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Jan 12 2018 - 01:03 AM

Psionics doesn't work as an element because it's not really a part of nature, unlike every other element. Thoughts don't exist, they're self-contained within the heads of animal life. For my G3 concept, it's getting the boot for that reason.

 

Haha, I gotta stop you there dude, because that's frankly an insane statement. Have you really thought through this assumption that thoughts don't exist? The fact that they exist in animal life makes them innately a part of nature. Human society is also a part of nature, and you can't tell me that a centrally-planned city isn't a physical manifestation of the plans the engineer had in their head. Thoughts clearly have causative power in the real world.

 

(There was a branch of psychology—Radical Behaviorism—that held thoughts to be nonexistent, but it went out of style among psychologists decades ago because it lacked explanatory power.)

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to eliminate psionics from your story, TBH, because I'm sure you're cool with a Toa of Fire controlling his element through a magic sword—why not control thoughts with magic too? It's more plausible actually. You don't even need magic to manipulate a person's thoughts in our world, just swing a sword at them and watch them get scared! Much easier to control than fire. 

 

Anyways, I think it's telling that your attempt to remove "thought" from nature required you to replace it with an even more blatantly magical concept. Don't worry so much about making your magic robot story realistic! I'm very down with introducing mana into Bionicle—I think it's a cool idea—but it's just not internally consistent right now. 


Edited by Wrinkledlion X, Jan 12 2018 - 01:11 AM.

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#20 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 12 2018 - 10:14 AM

 

Psionics doesn't work as an element because it's not really a part of nature, unlike every other element. Thoughts don't exist, they're self-contained within the heads of animal life. For my G3 concept, it's getting the boot for that reason.

 

Haha, I gotta stop you there dude, because that's frankly an insane statement. Have you really thought through this assumption that thoughts don't exist? The fact that they exist in animal life makes them innately a part of nature. Human society is also a part of nature, and you can't tell me that a centrally-planned city isn't a physical manifestation of the plans the engineer had in their head. Thoughts clearly have causative power in the real world.

 

(There was a branch of psychology—Radical Behaviorism—that held thoughts to be nonexistent, but it went out of style among psychologists decades ago because it lacked explanatory power.)

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to eliminate psionics from your story, TBH, because I'm sure you're cool with a Toa of Fire controlling his element through a magic sword—why not control thoughts with magic too? It's more plausible actually. You don't even need magic to manipulate a person's thoughts in our world, just swing a sword at them and watch them get scared! Much easier to control than fire. 

 

Anyways, I think it's telling that your attempt to remove "thought" from nature required you to replace it with an even more blatantly magical concept. Don't worry so much about making your magic robot story realistic! I'm very down with introducing mana into Bionicle—I think it's a cool idea—but it's just not internally consistent right now. 

 

I'm not sure what you're going on about with thoughts and existence. If I think about turtles, the turtles I think about do not exist because my thoughts are not physical matter or energy. I am merely conceiving a scenario in which they exist. If I could control and read people's thoughts, this has very limited applications that are already covered by various mask powers.

 

I'm not concerned about realism. I'm concerned about consistency. I had an idea, I utilized a spiritual concept from a group of cultures that's already heavily influenced Bionicle, and I was convinced that it came with practical issues, so I scrapped it. I've sinced begun moving on from that with just 12 elements, 6 primary and 6 secondary, based solely on physical aspects of the natural world, which thoughts decisively aren't.


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#21 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Jan 12 2018 - 03:11 PM

Fair enough. Sorry for the tangents, for some reason I get really into debates about Bionicle metaphysics. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

But my point is simply that thoughts aren't separate from nature just because they occur inside of a mind. If your premise is that magic can be used to control forces of nature, I don't see any inconsistency. "Thinking" is as much a property of some physical objects as gravitational pull, which can be controlled magically in your story—so by my judgment psionics fits in pretty comfortably. Illusions, mindreading, telekinesis, etc. 

 

Do what feels right though. What is this for exactly, are you working on an epic? 


Edited by Wrinkledlion X, Jan 12 2018 - 04:15 PM.

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#22 Offline Sir Keksalot

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Posted Jan 12 2018 - 06:00 PM

Do what feels right though. What is this for exactly, are you working on an epic? 

I'm chalking up the lore for what I hope I'll end up making into a fully-fledged storyline for a hypothetical generation of Bionicle, and I want to establish all the elements up front to avoid a G1 situation, wherein it just becomes convoluted and some elements are just miscellaneous powers or redundant to one another. If I end up doing it, I'll probably make it a serial with irregularly-published chapters. If I get really ambitious, I may try to rustle up some willing voice actors, sound effects, and the soundtrack from the film trilogy and make an audio drama out of it; though that'll take a lot more time, and I'll have to rely on other people, so I'll be hecked if that works out. I do like the idea, though.


Edited by Sir Keksalot, Jan 12 2018 - 06:03 PM.

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#23 Offline Matoro11

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Posted Jan 12 2018 - 07:52 PM


Do what feels right though. What is this for exactly, are you working on an epic?

I'm chalking up the lore for what I hope I'll end up making into a fully-fledged storyline for a hypothetical generation of Bionicle, and I want to establish all the elements up front to avoid a G1 situation, wherein it just becomes convoluted and some elements are just miscellaneous powers or redundant to one another. If I end up doing it, I'll probably make it a serial with irregularly-published chapters. If I get really ambitious, I may try to rustle up some willing voice actors, sound effects, and the soundtrack from the film trilogy and make an audio drama out of it; though that'll take a lot more time, and I'll have to rely on other people, so I'll be hecked if that works out. I do like the idea, though.

Speaking from experience, don't get ambitious. Start with your original idea. Finish it. Then work that out.


But if you need a voice guy, I'll be happy to help ;P

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