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Biggest Gaps in G1 Canon?

G1 Canon

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#41 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Feb 22 2018 - 08:12 PM

Fair point on the tactical disadvantages of Toa Stars haha. I remember reading that the Toa Stars visible from Mata Nui were said to be projections from the Red Star. Not a very satisfying answer but it's canon to my knowledge haha.


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#42 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Feb 22 2018 - 08:59 PM

They could be launched from the GSR, or manifestations from Mata Nui's dormant mind. It's not specific to the film; as early as MNOG the Ko-Matoran were studying "prophecies" the origin of which was never explained. Just typical mystical lore. Honestly I'd be disappointed if Greg confirmed it was one of my suggestions above.
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#43 Offline Pohaturon

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Posted Feb 22 2018 - 09:23 PM

They could be launched from the GSR, or manifestations from Mata Nui's dormant mind. It's not specific to the film; as early as MNOG the Ko-Matoran were studying "prophecies" the origin of which was never explained. Just typical mystical lore. Honestly I'd be disappointed if Greg confirmed it was one of my suggestions above.

I'm pretty sure the explanation would be about as nonsensical as the silliness made up to explain the Red Star...

 

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#44 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Feb 22 2018 - 09:41 PM

Here's a quote from Greg F on the Toa Stars, copied from here (question in underlined black, Greg's answer in grey):

 

What is the nature of Toa/Spirit stars inside and outside of the MU? [Toa Mata stars were outside the MU.But the Toa Metru spirit stars were inside the MU.]The inside ones I feel are pretty easy ...I always felt they were some sort of electrical impulse from MN's system ...As far as the outside ones go ...I would think there would have to be some connection to the red star, since it was connected to his system at least peripherally.


Edited by SamDrew, Feb 22 2018 - 09:41 PM.

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#45 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Feb 23 2018 - 06:41 AM

Here's a quote from Greg F on the Toa Stars, copied from here (question in underlined black, Greg's answer in grey):

 

What is the nature of Toa/Spirit stars inside and outside of the MU? [Toa Mata stars were outside the MU.But the Toa Metru spirit stars were inside the MU.]The inside ones I feel are pretty easy ...I always felt they were some sort of electrical impulse from MN's system ...As far as the outside ones go ...I would think there would have to be some connection to the red star, since it was connected to his system at least peripherally.

It makes sense... when the Red Star created the Toa Inika, when they touched weapons together bolts of lighting flashed into the sky and created six more Toa stars, which the Piraka saw and were able to confirm meant that new Toa had arrived. So I suppose making all Toa Stars outside the universe connected to the Red Star is somewhat believable.


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#46 Offline Zidonaro

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Posted Feb 23 2018 - 02:54 PM

If Toa Tahu was destined to become Toa Nuva(And the GBs and Mata Nui knew that) then why did they make the Golden Armor only compatible with his Mata form


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#47 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Feb 23 2018 - 04:02 PM

If Toa Tahu was destined to become Toa Nuva(And the GBs and Mata Nui knew that) then why did they make the Golden Armor only compatible with his Mata form

I'm with you, I always thought the Golden Armor was pretty shoehorned in and poorly explained. Definitely not much more than a product gimmick in my opinion.


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#48 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Feb 23 2018 - 11:53 PM

 

If Toa Tahu was destined to become Toa Nuva(And the GBs and Mata Nui knew that) then why did they make the Golden Armor only compatible with his Mata form

I'm with you, I always thought the Golden Armor was pretty shoehorned in and poorly explained. Definitely not much more than a product gimmick in my opinion.

 

 

I've previously talked about my ideas of Greater Destiny and Lesser Destiny. My theory is that all beings, including Spherus Magnans, have a Greater Destiny beyond the scope of the Great Beings or anyone else. Everyone in the Matoran Universe has a Lesser Destiny assigned by Mata Nui or the Great Beings. In the case of Energized Protodermis, it would be acting based on Greater Destiny, so it does make sense for the Golden Armor to not have been designed with Tahu's Nuva form in mind.


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#49 Offline Endless Sea (Alaki Nuva)

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Posted Feb 24 2018 - 05:30 AM

I thought the canon explanation was always that the Toa Mata's destiny changed when Teridax unleashed the Bohrok, and so they were transformed into Nuva because of that, whereas a chance encounter beforehand would have destroyed them.


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#50 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Feb 24 2018 - 02:02 PM

I also assumed that EP,was never something that the GB could control, so they never had knowledge of the Nuva idea, Artahka probably figured it out down the road hence the Nuva masks but who knows?

But I also wasn't a fan of the idea that Tahu is now the "odd one out" even if he gets cool rahkshi powers...

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#51 Offline Cheesy Mac n Cheese

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Posted Mar 15 2018 - 09:03 PM

The biggest gap, obviously, is the unfinished serials. Do those guys ever escape the Red Star? etc. Krakua's situation is confusing, too. They finally introduce him in the present years later, and we still don't know what that's about. And where are the Great Beings?

 

There's other nitpicky details, too, like Takanuva's unexplained revival, and what were those temples in MNOLGII?


Edited by Cheesy Mac n Cheese, Mar 15 2018 - 09:04 PM.

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#52 Offline Toa of Italy

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Posted Mar 30 2018 - 03:03 AM

Here's a quote from Greg F on the Toa Stars, copied from here (question in underlined black, Greg's answer in grey):

 

What is the nature of Toa/Spirit stars inside and outside of the MU? [Toa Mata stars were outside the MU.But the Toa Metru spirit stars were inside the MU.]The inside ones I feel are pretty easy ...I always felt they were some sort of electrical impulse from MN's system ...As far as the outside ones go ...I would think there would have to be some connection to the red star, since it was connected to his system at least peripherally.

 

My theory was that the Spirit Stars were a direct manifestation of Toa Power: the transformation of a Matoran into a Toa generates an orb of energy in the sky, which acts as Spirit Star. This would explain the scene where the Toa Inika create their stars and avoid making up two different mechanisms. Of course, questions would still need answering, such as why Takanuva's star appeared before his transformation and the stars of the Toa Metru afterwards. My answer was that, in the second case, the Spirit Stars depict the movements and behavior of their Toa (like Lhikan's that directed the Toa Metru to his location), thus it could be that they also reflected the team dynamics of the Toa Metru and manifested themselves only when they demonstrated they were a true team; in the case of Takanuva, the behavior of his star could be tied to the fact that Toa Power is linked to Destiny; thus, if a Matoran is destined to absorb Toa Power and become a Toa, then that Toa Power can manifest the Spirit Star even before triggering the transformation.

 

However, this theory about the Red Star also makes sense, in a way. The mechanisms may be two, but at the same time it states that the movements and appearances of the Spirit Stars are governed by the (conscious or unconscious) will of Mata Nui. The big issue is why the Red Star should have been designed to project Spirit Stars, since no Toa were supposed to set foot outside the Great Spirit Robot. However, since it transformed Jaller's team into the Toa Inika, it might be that there was a whole host of functions designed to activate in the presence of Toa or potential Toa outside the MU (in other words, yet another retcon that makes use of a 'failsafe' built by the Great Beings).

 

The biggest gap, obviously, is the unfinished serials. Do those guys ever escape the Red Star? etc. Krakua's situation is confusing, too. They finally introduce him in the present years later, and we still don't know what that's about. And where are the Great Beings?

 

There's other nitpicky details, too, like Takanuva's unexplained revival, and what were those temples in MNOLGII?

 

In the case of Takanuva's revival, just use the novelization version: Takutanuva split moments before the door came crashing down and Takanuva moved away just in time. It's a bit less poetic than what happens in the movie, but it saves you a lot of headaches.

 

I had forgotten about the temples in MNOLG2. You're right, that's a gap that was never solved.

A while back I made up a theory about them. Basically, it is all linked to the fact that the Toa Mata were originally meant, in case Mata Nui was struck down, to travel by Toa Canister to Mata Nui and then descend down to Metru Nui. My idea was that, in order to prove themselves (and ensure that no one else, such as a native of the world where the Great Spirit Robot had landed, would find the way down), they would be first of all required to collect the Charms and then the Crystals. They would then bring them to the Stones next to the Telescope, which would activate and teleport them to Kini Nui, from where they would descend down to Metru Nui.

Basically, the Stones did exactly that when Hahli activated them. Plus, I theorized that they simultaneously teleported to Kini Nui the entirety of Mata Nui's Matoran population. This is why, in the novelization, it is stated that the every Matoran is there when Takanuva descends into Mangaia, and it also explains why Nokama says, at the very end, that the Stones "have gathered us all here".


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#53 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Apr 13 2018 - 01:48 PM

Question about Kanohi and Toa transformation: If a Matoran is wearing a powerless noble mask when they are transformed into a Toa, will their mask transform into a great version of their powerless noble mask, or a powered noble version since it's already in that shape? I figure it's worth asking as we've seen Toa use noble masks before, mainly the Toa Mata on Mata Nui.

 

The only Toa I can think of whose Matoran and Toa forms we've seen, and that have transformed from Matoran to Toa without any supernatural intervention (i.e. the Red Star, the Ignika), are the Toa Metru, and they appear to be wearing powerless versions of their great kanohi in their movie appearance at least.


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#54 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Apr 13 2018 - 02:03 PM

Question about Kanohi and Toa transformation: If a Matoran is wearing a powerless noble mask when they are transformed into a Toa, will their mask transform into a great version of their powerless noble mask, or a powered noble version since it's already in that shape? I figure it's worth asking as we've seen Toa use noble masks before, mainly the Toa Mata on Mata Nui.

 

The only Toa I can think of whose Matoran and Toa forms we've seen, and that have transformed from Matoran to Toa without any supernatural intervention (i.e. the Red Star, the Ignika), are the Toa Metru, and they appear to be wearing powerless versions of their great kanohi in their movie appearance at least.

 

Since we've seen powerless masks get upgraded to their respective great versions on matoran I believe that works no matter what the shape of the mask is. My guess is that the Toa Energy used to upgrade the matoran unlocks the masks properties that it had when it was made (however small that is) since all masks are made from Kanoka disks (with a few exceptions) and all have a tiny bit of power in them even if they are "powerless". Now as far as the shape is concerned, I don't think that matters as much. Take Krakua, he has the Suletu, but it's in the shape of a Hau. I have no idea if that was the mask he had as a matoran, or if he got it later, but it still had a Suletu's power regardless of the shape. If a mask is noble in shape when "upgraded" to a great, it will be great powerlevel wise, but I do not know for certain what shape it will contain. 

 

The Toa Mata did use noble masks that the Turaga had brought with them from Metru Nui, but those were always noble masks, probably made by the mask makers and kept in the great temple for safe keeping, as was their practice. 

 

All that to say: I believe it will be a great version of the noble mask, no matter what shape or stage it happens to be in during the transformation. 

 

 


Edited by Iron_Man5, Apr 13 2018 - 02:07 PM.

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#55 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Apr 16 2018 - 04:33 PM

Another question, was there any set method for how Matoran settlements were named? It seems clear that any name ending in -Koro is a village, -Metru is an urban district, and -Wahi is a larger region, and that the prefix of these names indicated the elemental association of their residents (Ta, Ga, De, etc.). Did we ever learn though if there was, for example, more than one Ga-Koro? Would any village populated by Ga-Matoran be named Ga-Koro or was the Ga-Koro of Mata Nui the only one? And were there any settlements that were not just of one element? If so, how would they go about naming their villages/districts/etc.?


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#56 Offline Cheesy Mac n Cheese

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Posted Apr 17 2018 - 02:12 PM

Another question, was there any set method for how Matoran settlements were named? It seems clear that any name ending in -Koro is a village, -Metru is an urban district, and -Wahi is a larger region, and that the prefix of these names indicated the elemental association of their residents (Ta, Ga, De, etc.). Did we ever learn though if there was, for example, more than one Ga-Koro? Would any village populated by Ga-Matoran be named Ga-Koro or was the Ga-Koro of Mata Nui the only one? And were there any settlements that were not just of one element? If so, how would they go about naming their villages/districts/etc.?

 

I'd say that since there was a village with an identical naming convention on a landmass other than Mata Nui (De-Koro on the Northern Continent), there are probably other instances of Ga-Koro, Ko-Koro etc. And yes, there are settlements with more than one element: Voya Nui and Mahri Nui. The village on Mahri Nui was just called Mahri Nui, and the village on Voya Nui was given the generic name "Matoran Cliff Village."


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#57 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Apr 17 2018 - 04:32 PM

I'd say that since there was a village with an identical naming convention on a landmass other than Mata Nui (De-Koro on the Northern Continent), there are probably other instances of Ga-Koro, Ko-Koro etc. And yes, there are settlements with more than one element: Voya Nui and Mahri Nui. The village on Mahri Nui was just called Mahri Nui, and the village on Voya Nui was given the generic name "Matoran Cliff Village."

 

 

Not sure how Voya Nui and Mahri Nui slipped my mind, thanks for the reminder haha. I think your description of how the naming of Koros works makes sense, since they're such generic names it would be strange if they were only used once each.

 

I've just been wondering recently how naming might work on the Northern and Southern Continents since they are where the majority of Matoran lived, and the only examples we have to go off of other than brief mentions of De- and Ba-Koro both end in "Nui" - Voya Nui and Mahri Nui. And to be fair, both of those are in some sense special cases since they became regions of their own after being ejected from the MU, they were populated by Karzahni-altered refugees/outcasts, and they were both story locations which always seem to get a "Nui" name anyways.

 

Was "Matoran Cliff Village" a name given in the books or in VNOLG?


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#58 Offline onionfarb

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Posted Apr 17 2018 - 05:29 PM


  • Where do Vakama's visions come from? Why do they always come true?

That question was already answered, in the worst possible way. To quote Greg, they were "a glitch."

I remember. But why were they prophetic visions and not random nonsense?

My theory would be that it had something to do with the fact that he was destined to create the Mask of Time.

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#59 Offline Cheesy Mac n Cheese

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Posted Apr 17 2018 - 07:28 PM


  • Where do Vakama's visions come from? Why do they always come true?
That question was already answered, in the worst possible way. To quote Greg, they were "a glitch."
I remember. But why were they prophetic visions and not random nonsense?
My theory would be that it had something to do with the fact that he was destined to create the Mask of Time.
I guess that makes sense considering destinies are “pre-programmed” into a being’s mind. So they were less “Vakama is literally seeing the future” and more “Vakama is receiving hints as to what is supposed to happen.

...but why did he keep having visions after becoming a Turaga? On that note, were his visions made up by the screenwriters rather than the proper story team? That’s the same way we got the Mask of Illusion=literal shapeshifting nonsense.

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#60 Offline onionfarb

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Posted Apr 18 2018 - 10:12 AM


  • Where do Vakama's visions come from? Why do they always come true?
That question was already answered, in the worst possible way. To quote Greg, they were "a glitch."
I remember. But why were they prophetic visions and not random nonsense?
My theory would be that it had something to do with the fact that he was destined to create the Mask of Time.
I guess that makes sense considering destinies are “pre-programmed” into a being’s mind. So they were less “Vakama is literally seeing the future” and more “Vakama is receiving hints as to what is supposed to happen.

...but why did he keep having visions after becoming a Turaga? On that note, were his visions made up by the screenwriters rather than the proper story team? That’s the same way we got the Mask of Illusion=literal shapeshifting nonsense.

I guess the condition is permanent.

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#61 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Apr 18 2018 - 12:30 PM

 That’s the same way we got the Mask of Illusion=literal shapeshifting nonsense.

Forgive me, but what nonsense? I thought that was a clever use of that power, especially in 2002, when the Bahrag literally could create certain realities from illusions as long as the victim thought it was real. Makes sense that the Mahiki could "trick" others into perceiving a different shape of the mask wearer.


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#62 Offline Cheesy Mac n Cheese

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Posted Apr 18 2018 - 10:21 PM

 

 That’s the same way we got the Mask of Illusion=literal shapeshifting nonsense.

Forgive me, but what nonsense? I thought that was a clever use of that power, especially in 2002, when the Bahrag literally could create certain realities from illusions as long as the victim thought it was real. Makes sense that the Mahiki could "trick" others into perceiving a different shape of the mask wearer.

 

 

An illusion, by definition, isn't real. Now, if he were merely changing how others see him, like the Holographic Disguise Matrix in Star Wars, that would be an illusion

However, the script implied he actually morphed the shape of his body into what he wanted others to perceive him as. That's not an illusion.


Edited by Cheesy Mac n Cheese, Apr 18 2018 - 10:24 PM.

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#63 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Apr 21 2018 - 01:47 AM

 

 

 That’s the same way we got the Mask of Illusion=literal shapeshifting nonsense.

Forgive me, but what nonsense? I thought that was a clever use of that power, especially in 2002, when the Bahrag literally could create certain realities from illusions as long as the victim thought it was real. Makes sense that the Mahiki could "trick" others into perceiving a different shape of the mask wearer.

 

 

An illusion, by definition, isn't real. Now, if he were merely changing how others see him, like the Holographic Disguise Matrix in Star Wars, that would be an illusion

However, the script implied he actually morphed the shape of his body into what he wanted others to perceive him as. That's not an illusion.

 

If we're talking about the LoMN film, when does the script imply he's actually shapeshifting? Aside from him saying it, I can't think of any. He doesn't use any of the special physical traits of the characters he takes the appearances of.


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#64 Offline Cheesy Mac n Cheese

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Posted Apr 21 2018 - 07:33 PM




That’s the same way we got the Mask of Illusion=literal shapeshifting nonsense.

Forgive me, but what nonsense? I thought that was a clever use of that power, especially in 2002, when the Bahrag literally could create certain realities from illusions as long as the victim thought it was real. Makes sense that the Mahiki could "trick" others into perceiving a different shape of the mask wearer.
An illusion, by definition, isn't real. Now, if he were merely changing how others see him, like the Holographic Disguise Matrix in Star Wars, that would be an illusion
However, the script implied he actually morphed the shape of his body into what he wanted others to perceive him as. That's not an illusion.
If we're talking about the LoMN film, when does the script imply he's actually shapeshifting? Aside from him saying it, I can't think of any. He doesn't use any of the special physical traits of the characters he takes the appearances of.
The encyclopedia says that the Mahiki grants shapeshifting powers. Greg has since denied this, saying the user only fools people into thinking you change your shape. I prefer the latter definition, but BS01 lists the Mahiki on the Shapeshifting article.

As for the script, I haven’t watched the movie for a while, so I may be paraphrasing, but when he pins down Whenua (disguised as a Vahki), Whenua says “Shapeshifting?!” And Matau replies “Yep!”

Edited by Cheesy Mac n Cheese, Apr 21 2018 - 07:37 PM.

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#65 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 03:01 PM

Here's a big one: Which if any beings in the Matoran Universe knew that their whole world was really inside a giant robot? And to boot, did these beings know the history of its creation and the Shattering? From the Mutran Chronicles it seems that the Makuta figured it out from the vision given to Mutran by Tren Krom, but elsewhere in the serials we meet the antidermis-being and it claims the Makuta have forgotten their true purpose/the true history of their universe. I could see Helryx and Artakha maybe being in the know too, but I'm just curious if there's any canon affirmation of that or of any other examples.


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#66 Online TuragaNuva

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 03:19 PM

Here's a big one: Which if any beings in the Matoran Universe knew that their whole world was really inside a giant robot? And to boot, did these beings know the history of its creation and the Shattering? From the Mutran Chronicles it seems that the Makuta figured it out from the vision given to Mutran by Tren Krom, but elsewhere in the serials we meet the antidermis-being and it claims the Makuta have forgotten their true purpose/the true history of their universe. I could see Helryx and Artakha maybe being in the know too, but I'm just curious if there's any canon affirmation of that or of any other examples.

I believe the Order of Mata Nui (at least the higher-ups) knew the true form of Mata Nui, but I don't think they knew about the Shattering and the reason for Mata Nui's creation.

 

As for the Makuta, I can really only think of two possibilities (I'm not sure what's canon):

  1. Something about the change Velika made to give the MU inhabitants sentience caused some species to forget the true nature of Mata Nui (I think this seems doubtful, if only because I don't know why it would affect the Makuta but not the OoMN)
  2. Mata Nui, not knowing Teridax's true destiny, saw no reason for the Makuta to know his true form, so he created them without knowledge of it. Perhaps the Makuta didn't exactly "forget," but Mata Nui removed that knowledge from the raw Antidermis he used to create them (leaving it present in the remaining Antidermis).

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#67 Offline Planetperson

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 06:33 PM

Unlike TuragaNuva, my impression has always been that no one in the MU (except for Velika and possibly Tren Krom) actually knew that Mata Nui was a giant space robot that they were living inside of, much less the reasons why the MU was created. In my mind, it was THE big secret in the MU until the end of 2008. We know from Makuta's Diary that Teridax did not know the secret until he took over Mata Nui's body, which means that Mutran didn't either. It's not exactly clear what knowledge Mutran discovered in his meeting with Tren Krom, except that it was his insight that convinced Teridax that Mata Nui could be laid low with a virus. Heh, I seem to recall that in the OGD Greg once told someone that although Teridax did not know Mata Nui's location, his brilliant plan to ensure the virus reached him was to "just spread it everywhere all over the place," which coincidentally was exactly the right thing to do. I think it's entirely possible that not even Tren Krom had a clear idea that Mata Nui was a giant robot. He only ran the MU before it launched from Spherus Magna, and only from the inside, so he never experienced what it was like to control the robot. From his perspective, he was only required to transmit energy here, control gravity there, cause daylight here, and so on, without necessarily getting the big picture. The same goes for uniquely well-informed individuals like Helryx. She might have understood the role of places like Metru Nui and Karda Nui in the universe as a whole and their connection to Mata Nui's health without necessarily knowing that they were actually parts of Mata Nui's body.


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#68 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 07:06 PM

I agree; my understanding was that the universe being a robot was a surprise to everyone who exited it in 2010.

 

My final comment on the power of the Mahiki, the power of the mask of referred to as "shapeshifting" throughout the second film, but it's never used in a way that contradicts its true power just being illusion. Matau is seen taking the form of Nidhiki, Krekka, and a Vahki, but he never appears to adopt any specific physical characteristics of them, like powers or strength,


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#69 Online TuragaNuva

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 07:14 PM

Unlike TuragaNuva, my impression has always been that no one in the MU (except for Velika and possibly Tren Krom) actually knew that Mata Nui was a giant space robot that they were living inside of, much less the reasons why the MU was created. In my mind, it was THE big secret in the MU until the end of 2008. We know from Makuta's Diary that Teridax did not know the secret until he took over Mata Nui's body, which means that Mutran didn't either. It's not exactly clear what knowledge Mutran discovered in his meeting with Tren Krom, except that it was his insight that convinced Teridax that Mata Nui could be laid low with a virus. Heh, I seem to recall that in the OGD Greg once told someone that although Teridax did not know Mata Nui's location, his brilliant plan to ensure the virus reached him was to "just spread it everywhere all over the place," which coincidentally was exactly the right thing to do. I think it's entirely possible that not even Tren Krom had a clear idea that Mata Nui was a giant robot. He only ran the MU before it launched from Spherus Magna, and only from the inside, so he never experienced what it was like to control the robot. From his perspective, he was only required to transmit energy here, control gravity there, cause daylight here, and so on, without necessarily getting the big picture. The same goes for uniquely well-informed individuals like Helryx. She might have understood the role of places like Metru Nui and Karda Nui in the universe as a whole and their connection to Mata Nui's health without necessarily knowing that they were actually parts of Mata Nui's body.

On further thought, I agree that none of the OoMN probably knew. I'll have to think more on Tren Krom.

But which part of Makuta's Diary shows that he didn't know about the GSR until taking over? He doesn't indicate any surprise at what Mata Nui really was. Are you referring to him saying he didn't know what the Bohrok were for at the time he released them?

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#70 Offline Cheesy Mac n Cheese

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 08:18 PM

I don't think anyone inside the robot ever knew that they were, well, inside a robot. I think everyone in the MU was created within the robot, it's just that the robot wasn't activated until later.

 

Back to the Mahiki one last time, if it's the Mask of Illusion, then you're not actually changing your shape. Your molecules are all staying put, and you're just projectinmg an image over yourself. Like someone said on a BS01 talk page, your "hit box" remains the same, so to speak. But they still insist on it being actual shapeshifting...


Edited by Cheesy Mac n Cheese, Apr 23 2018 - 08:18 PM.

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#71 Offline Planetperson

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 10:55 PM

 

Unlike TuragaNuva, my impression has always been that no one in the MU (except for Velika and possibly Tren Krom) actually knew that Mata Nui was a giant space robot that they were living inside of, much less the reasons why the MU was created. In my mind, it was THE big secret in the MU until the end of 2008. We know from Makuta's Diary that Teridax did not know the secret until he took over Mata Nui's body, which means that Mutran didn't either. It's not exactly clear what knowledge Mutran discovered in his meeting with Tren Krom, except that it was his insight that convinced Teridax that Mata Nui could be laid low with a virus. Heh, I seem to recall that in the OGD Greg once told someone that although Teridax did not know Mata Nui's location, his brilliant plan to ensure the virus reached him was to "just spread it everywhere all over the place," which coincidentally was exactly the right thing to do. I think it's entirely possible that not even Tren Krom had a clear idea that Mata Nui was a giant robot. He only ran the MU before it launched from Spherus Magna, and only from the inside, so he never experienced what it was like to control the robot. From his perspective, he was only required to transmit energy here, control gravity there, cause daylight here, and so on, without necessarily getting the big picture. The same goes for uniquely well-informed individuals like Helryx. She might have understood the role of places like Metru Nui and Karda Nui in the universe as a whole and their connection to Mata Nui's health without necessarily knowing that they were actually parts of Mata Nui's body.

On further thought, I agree that none of the OoMN probably knew. I'll have to think more on Tren Krom.

But which part of Makuta's Diary shows that he didn't know about the GSR until taking over? He doesn't indicate any surprise at what Mata Nui really was. Are you referring to him saying he didn't know what the Bohrok were for at the time he released them?

 

 

I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but I think at the very end he discusses how Mata Nui was the universe around them all along. I think he talks about it as if it were new information.


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#72 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Apr 23 2018 - 11:44 PM

Tren Krom did know about Mata Nui being a giant robot and accidentally transferred the knowledge to Mutran. So at least Mutran and Teridax knew the big secret about Mata Nui's nature, but it's possible Teridax didn't tell the rest of the Brotherhood the whole truth. In fact, it's likely he only revealed bits of what he knew.

 

None of the OoMN members knew.


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#73 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Apr 24 2018 - 01:52 AM

One big thorn in my mind is the scene in RoS where the group of super-beings (Helryx, Artakha, Brutaka, etc.) are ejected into space from within the Core Processor and they all see a giant robot fly away. In my read of it they didn't frankly seem that shocked by it, which is surprising if they had no idea their universe was a robot. They were able to determine within a few seconds that that robot was indeed their universe and that Teridax was in control of it and had teleported them outside of it, and to do that with no foreknowledge while also dealing with having been cast into the vacuum of space (which they also wouldn't have known existed) does seem like a bit much. 

 

However, on the flip side, here's a quote from Teridax's journal that I do think implies he was the only one to know the whole truth, and that he indeed didn't know until his spirit was in control of the universe: 

 

"The heroic Toa returned to Metru Nui, even as the Great Spirit Mata Nui began to rise. Of course, no one but I truly knew what that meant. I had been to the places no one else had ever seen. I knew the ultimate truth - that Mata Nui did not rule the universe of the Matoran - he was the universe. The Great Spirit was a vast being of metal, a thing of armored power....We had looked to the heavens for our Great Spirit, when he was truly all around us." - p. 90

 

Semantics can be debated as to whether this is 100% confirmation that no one really knew, but that would seem to be the implication. In that case I'd imagine that Tren Krom or Helryx or Artakha had bits and pieces of knowledge of how the universe worked that others may not have understood, but no one really knew they existed within a giant mechanoid until Teridax went full god-mode. 


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#74 Online TuragaNuva

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Posted Apr 24 2018 - 07:58 AM

One big thorn in my mind is the scene in RoS where the group of super-beings (Helryx, Artakha, Brutaka, etc.) are ejected into space from within the Core Processor and they all see a giant robot fly away. In my read of it they didn't frankly seem that shocked by it, which is surprising if they had no idea their universe was a robot. They were able to determine within a few seconds that that robot was indeed their universe and that Teridax was in control of it and had teleported them outside of it, and to do that with no foreknowledge while also dealing with having been cast into the vacuum of space (which they also wouldn't have known existed) does seem like a bit much.

Well, Helryx, Miserix, Axonn, and Brutaka already knew from when the Antidermis-possessed Brutaka revealed it to them in the last chapter of Dwellers in Darkness (I think him saying that Mata Nui had computers for a brain was enough for them to determine MN was robotic). Also, while Teridax didn't specify that Mata Nui was a giant robot when he revealed his Plan had succeeded, he did reveal that Mata Nui was the universe itself. Based on how everyone seems to at least sort of know about the GSR later on, I've always assumed that detail was passed around during the time between the end of '08 and the beginning of RoS.

However, on the flip side, here's a quote from Teridax's journal that I do think implies he was the only one to know the whole truth, and that he indeed didn't know until his spirit was in control of the universe: 
 
"The heroic Toa returned to Metru Nui, even as the Great Spirit Mata Nui began to rise. Of course, no one but I truly knew what that meant. I had been to the places no one else had ever seen. I knew the ultimate truth - that Mata Nui did not rule the universe of the Matoran - he was the universe. The Great Spirit was a vast being of metal, a thing of armored power....We had looked to the heavens for our Great Spirit, when he was truly all around us." - p. 90
 
Semantics can be debated as to whether this is 100% confirmation that no one really knew, but that would seem to be the implication. In that case I'd imagine that Tren Krom or Helryx or Artakha had bits and pieces of knowledge of how the universe worked that others may not have understood, but no one really knew they existed within a giant mechanoid until Teridax went full god-mode.

It does seem possible from this passage that Teridax didn't know about the GSR until his spirit entered it (though he definitely knew before it woke up). But that still doesn't make sense to me... without knowing that Mata Nui inhabited a metal body, and that his "brain" was under Metru Nui, how would Teridax have even known he could take over the way he did?

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#75 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Apr 24 2018 - 08:49 AM

 


However, on the flip side, here's a quote from Teridax's journal that I do think implies he was the only one to know the whole truth, and that he indeed didn't know until his spirit was in control of the universe: 
 
"The heroic Toa returned to Metru Nui, even as the Great Spirit Mata Nui began to rise. Of course, no one but I truly knew what that meant. I had been to the places no one else had ever seen. I knew the ultimate truth - that Mata Nui did not rule the universe of the Matoran - he was the universe. The Great Spirit was a vast being of metal, a thing of armored power....We had looked to the heavens for our Great Spirit, when he was truly all around us." - p. 90
 
Semantics can be debated as to whether this is 100% confirmation that no one really knew, but that would seem to be the implication. In that case I'd imagine that Tren Krom or Helryx or Artakha had bits and pieces of knowledge of how the universe worked that others may not have understood, but no one really knew they existed within a giant mechanoid until Teridax went full god-mode.

It does seem possible from this passage that Teridax didn't know about the GSR until his spirit entered it (though he definitely knew before it woke up). But that still doesn't make sense to me... without knowing that Mata Nui inhabited a metal body, and that his "brain" was under Metru Nui, how would Teridax have even known he could take over the way he did?

 

I think the answer to that is Tren Krom and the knowledge he gave to Mutran. When TK (in Lewa's body) went to the MU's brain, he immediately began tinkering with the machinery to tell the Ignika to make it for Tahu, so he definitely knew how all that worked. He must have shared such information with Mutran who gave the info to Teridax. Hence why later Teridax was able to manipulate the environment as he could (without his usual makuta power) both he and Tren could do so because they truly understood how the universe worked. (taken from Biosector01 wiki). So I think Tren Krom knew much more than we're giving him credit for personally.


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#76 Offline SamDrew

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Posted Apr 24 2018 - 12:06 PM

Here's where my thought process has gone: Teridax didn't have to know that his universe existed in a giant robot to be able to formulate/execute the Plan, all he had to know was that Mata Nui "resided" in the Core Processor under Metru Nui and that he could be both incapacitated and, in the event of his weakening/death, his spirit could be replaced as the "god" of the universe. The Makuta didn't have to understand that Mata Nui wasn't just their universe but actually a giant robot to have their Plan make sense or be possible to execute. 

 

That being said, beings like Tren Krom, Helryx, and Artakha & Karzahni likely understood/remembered the creation of the universe, but having never been outside it they would have never known it was actually a giant robot. They may have learned or pieced together that Mata Nui lived within or even was their universe, but that would have been the full extent of it. That would have been the information that Mutran learned from Tren Krom, which would have been enough to make the Plan feasible.

 

It wouldn't have been until, as TuragaNuva pointed out, the last chapter of Dwellers in Darkness when Antidermis-enhanced Brutaka explains the nature of the GSR that those present would have known the entire truth. And from there it is indeed likely that others learned or discerned the truth, and since DiD takes place before RoS that fully explains my concerns about those characters' reaction to seeing a giant robot flying away from them.


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