Discussion: The Future Of Bzpower

Toa of Nerds · January 2, 2012

Yes, but even those less polarized political topics are quite attached to the liberal/conservative schism. The political aspects of global warming especially. The scientific aspects however, are much easier ground. Something that would be very interesting to have would be a forum (not forum as in CoT or GD, but as in a space for talk) for scientific debate.

The problem with opening the door to scientific debate is that you let in the evolution vs creationism deal, which has created more than a few spittle-filled shouting matches over the years.In other news, I think some of our suggestions are getting heard. Up on the front page I see the acient Glatorian link gone, replaced with an amazon search for Hero Factory sets. Also, Alyska's CUUSOO project dealing with a constraction line for girls is front page news. Here's hoping that more member-based news will come.-don't touch my pocket protector

Waffles · January 2, 2012

@Toa of Nerds: Yes, but that would fall under the purview of religion, which every seems to agree is never going to be discussed here. It simply cannot be, and actually, the older the members, the more difficult it is to be rational.

fishers64 · January 3, 2012

In other news, I think some of our suggestions are getting heard. Up on the front page I see the acient Glatorian link gone, replaced with an amazon search for Hero Factory sets. Also, Alyska's CUUSOO project dealing with a constraction line for girls is front page news. Here's hoping that more member-based news will come.-don't touch my pocket protector

YES!But seriously, this is a day off for most people in the United States, and it looks like our fellow admin used that time to his advantage. And, if you look at that link to Alyska's project, it shows that Black Six is supporting it, which tells you who pulled the strings to get it on the front page...although that source for that is some member I haven't seen in awhile.EDIT: If we want more member-based news, I suggest we stop complaining about staff acknowledgement of stuff and start reporting popular creations and stuff that needs to go there. Edited January 3, 2012 by fishers64

SolitaryHyena · January 3, 2012

Aww man, i really don't want this to be a lego fourm, Lego has a fourms of their own tho, but mostly for little kids tho i tihnk. But I would like this to keep being a bionicle Fourm site, cuz well sure the line is dead, but still this is like a fourm for out memories, and well it was always a fourm for bionicle, and SOME lego ofc, and ofc off topics stuff. I'd really hate for this to turn into an all lego fourm. >.<

Let's Henshin! · January 3, 2012

For all the remaining forums, we don't lump Bionicle in with LEGO in the descriptions because BZP started out as a Bionicle-focused site and that is our way of acknowledging our roots. All the Creative forums (with a couple exceptions noted above) as well as others like Media and Digital Discussion, can have LEGO-related content. It's up to you guys, the members, to make it. Perhaps the staff needs to work more to encourage that, and if you all have any suggestions on how to do so, I'm all ears.

I feel like you misunderstood what I said, I personally like having the homage to our roots with Bionicle in the description. My point was that it may look to new members that Lego is just lumped in. Now this is a problem if we wish to broaden our outlook. After all few Lego fans will join a site where Lego is just lumped on. Also another way we could broaden our fanbase is to reach out to other Lego forums, in similar manner we have with BS01. After all I'm sure members have joined us because they read about us on BS01. If we find other family-friendly Lego forums and strengthen our relationship with them, then I think our own Userbase will increase.

**Comment Expired** · January 3, 2012

Next point - I do not foresee a time when BZPower will allow political or religious discussion. I don't want to moderate it, and I don't want to have to ask our staff to do it. I don't care how many of our members are mature enough to carry on such discussion - all it takes is one to ruin it. And yes, politics and religion are very different from other types of off-topic discussion in that people tend to be very polarized on them, which leads very easily to the arguments and flame wars we try to avoid.

B6, just saying but I think you under-estimate your userbase as being more thin-skinned then it actually is.

**dviddy** · January 3, 2012

Next point - I do not foresee a time when BZPower will allow political or religious discussion. I don't want to moderate it, and I don't want to have to ask our staff to do it. I don't care how many of our members are mature enough to carry on such discussion - all it takes is one to ruin it. And yes, politics and religion are very different from other types of off-topic discussion in that people tend to be very polarized on them, which leads very easily to the arguments and flame wars we try to avoid.
B6, just saying but I think you under-estimate your userbase as being more thin-skinned then it actually is.

It's cute you think that, but no. We've done these things in the past, that rule hasn't been there from the outset. Our memberbase is incapable of discussing politics and religion without someone coming in and ruining it. Incapable.

2.1k · January 3, 2012

I think that for BZP to grow and subsequently survive, it needs to focus more on the Creative Outlet. All other forms of Bionicle discussion are finite, you can only theorize or discuss sets/collectibles for so long when there are no new sets/storylines emerging. For BZPower to survive while maintaining in some degree it's Bionicle fansite identity (an identity I would consider valuable) I think it needs to keep the creating members. Creative output based off of Bionicle is infinite, and I do not use that word lightly. Tahu can be drawn in the same pose, with the same pencil, fighting the same villain in the same location from many-many-many angles, open up the pose, medium, setting, and character possibilities and the potential for art subjects becomes not only infinite, but interesting. The same goes for the fan fiction forums (RPGs included), and BBC.The way to keep such forums alive and to attract new members to them is contests. I joined BZP for a Greg contest a long time back, and I have no doubt that others did to. If we reliably had quality contests in all of those forums those forums would grow and BZP would grow. There are a lot of MOCists out there who are not on BZP, there are writers, and there are artists. Bionicle pieces, the Bionicle storyline, and the Bionicle world are great jumping off places for creative endeavors, and that jumping off place is best reached from this website.(Note, I didn't read much of this topic beyond the first post, so if this has been mentioned I'm not aware of it.)

Next point - I do not foresee a time when BZPower will allow political or religious discussion. I don't want to moderate it, and I don't want to have to ask our staff to do it. I don't care how many of our members are mature enough to carry on such discussion - all it takes is one to ruin it. And yes, politics and religion are very different from other types of off-topic discussion in that people tend to be very polarized on them, which leads very easily to the arguments and flame wars we try to avoid.

Eh, and I'd say it's a matter of "Why should it be allowed". This is firstly a Bionicle site, secondly a Lego site, and thirdly a general nerd site. Such discussion is not in any of those categories.- 55555 Edited January 3, 2012 by 55555

Let's Henshin! · January 3, 2012

The way to keep such forums alive and to attract new members to them is contests. I joined BZP for a Greg contest a long time back, and I have no doubt that others did to. If we reliably had quality contests in all of those forums those forums would grow and BZP would grow. There are a lot of MOCists out there who are not on BZP, there are writers, and there are artists. Bionicle pieces, the Bionicle storyline, and the Bionicle world are great jumping off places for creative endeavors, and that jumping off place is best reached from this website.

You know the point about Contest is valid, I myself joined due to a contest(which I never ended up entering.

). However Contests may also turn away members who feel ashamed of their work, in comparison to others.

2.1k · January 3, 2012

The way to keep such forums alive and to attract new members to them is contests. I joined BZP for a Greg contest a long time back, and I have no doubt that others did to. If we reliably had quality contests in all of those forums those forums would grow and BZP would grow. There are a lot of MOCists out there who are not on BZP, there are writers, and there are artists. Bionicle pieces, the Bionicle storyline, and the Bionicle world are great jumping off places for creative endeavors, and that jumping off place is best reached from this website.
You know the point about Contest is valid, I myself joined due to a contest(which I never ended up entering. ). However Contests may also turn away members who feel ashamed of their work, in comparison to others.

I think the overwhelming majority would be attracted rather than turned away. I don't think your point is significant..- 55555 Edited January 3, 2012 by 55555

Let's Henshin! · January 3, 2012

I agree, and do believe we need more contests, but I wanted to also bring up some of the problems. Another of which would be getting Staff with the judges and such. However if an approval system is worked out for contests, then members could also host contest. Taking some strain off of the staff.

**Sumiki** · January 3, 2012

Next point - I do not foresee a time when BZPower will allow political or religious discussion. I don't want to moderate it, and I don't want to have to ask our staff to do it. I don't care how many of our members are mature enough to carry on such discussion - all it takes is one to ruin it. And yes, politics and religion are very different from other types of off-topic discussion in that people tend to be very polarized on them, which leads very easily to the arguments and flame wars we try to avoid.
B6, just saying but I think you under-estimate your userbase as being more thin-skinned then it actually is.
It's cute you think that, but no. We've done these things in the past, that rule hasn't been there from the outset. Our memberbase is incapable of discussing politics and religion without someone coming in and ruining it. Incapable.

I wouldn't say incapable. That's the link I provided earlier in this topic that got some discussion going about a way to discuss politics.I still understand why it's so easily generalizable to the point of incapability, and while I still think the link I've provided is the exception rather than the rule, I think it shows something - that the BZPower memberbase is not incapable of discussing politics. Religion is still a very touchy subject, more so than politics, in my opinion, so I'm not going to get into that side of the argument.My main point is this: the blogs have a relaxed stance towards political things, such as mentioning who one is supporting/voting for in an election. Why can't the forums have the same type of rule, even if discussion is still banned due to its usual tendency to erupt into full-scale flame wars? Edited January 3, 2012 by Sumiki

fishers64 · January 3, 2012

The way to keep such forums alive and to attract new members to them is contests. I joined BZP for a Greg contest a long time back, and I have no doubt that others did to. If we reliably had quality contests in all of those forums those forums would grow and BZP would grow. There are a lot of MOCists out there who are not on BZP, there are writers, and there are artists. Bionicle pieces, the Bionicle storyline, and the Bionicle world are great jumping off places for creative endeavors, and that jumping off place is best reached from this website.
You know the point about Contest is valid, I myself joined due to a contest(which I never ended up entering. ). However Contests may also turn away members who feel ashamed of their work, in comparison to others.
I think the overwhelming majority would be attracted rather than turned away. I don't think your point is significant..- 55555

I joined because of a story contest! More contests, please!But I think it is not as much the contest as the recognition that comes with it. If you win a contest, then people are likely to notice your work. Members scrutinize contest entries because they are competition. So I think giving attention to creative work should include contests, but not be limited to contests. I still want more creative front page features. Edited January 3, 2012 by fishers64

**dviddy** · January 3, 2012

Next point - I do not foresee a time when BZPower will allow political or religious discussion. I don't want to moderate it, and I don't want to have to ask our staff to do it. I don't care how many of our members are mature enough to carry on such discussion - all it takes is one to ruin it. And yes, politics and religion are very different from other types of off-topic discussion in that people tend to be very polarized on them, which leads very easily to the arguments and flame wars we try to avoid.
B6, just saying but I think you under-estimate your userbase as being more thin-skinned then it actually is.
It's cute you think that, but no. We've done these things in the past, that rule hasn't been there from the outset. Our memberbase is incapable of discussing politics and religion without someone coming in and ruining it. Incapable.
I wouldn't say incapable. That's the link I provided earlier in this topic that got some discussion going about a way to discuss politics.I still understand why it's so easily generalizable to the point of incapability, and while I still think the link I've provided is the exception rather than the rule, I think it shows something - that the BZPower memberbase is not incapable of discussing politics. Religion is still a very touchy subject, more so than politics, in my opinion, so I'm not going to get into that side of the argument.My main point is this: the blogs have a relaxed stance towards political things, such as mentioning who one is supporting/voting for in an election. Why can't the forums have the same type of rule, even if discussion is still banned due to its usual tendency to erupt into full-scale flame wars?

That entry doesn't show BZP as being capable of handling political discussion, it shows that they can't follow the current blog rules, and during the brief window that they did, they could mention who they'd vote for, which is not the same thing as a political discussion. The moment that blog entry had turned into an actual discussion and gone to "why would you vote for that person, ew?" and it would, BZP would have done what BZP does. And that is being incapable of a political discussion without erupting into a flamewar.

Legolover-361 · January 3, 2012

I wouldn't say incapable. That's the link I provided earlier in this topic that got some discussion going about a way to discuss politics.I still understand why it's so easily generalizable to the point of incapability, and while I still think the link I've provided is the exception rather than the rule, I think it shows something - that the BZPower memberbase is not incapable of discussing politics. Religion is still a very touchy subject, more so than politics, in my opinion, so I'm not going to get into that side of the argument.My main point is this: the blogs have a relaxed stance towards political things, such as mentioning who one is supporting/voting for in an election. Why can't the forums have the same type of rule, even if discussion is still banned due to its usual tendency to erupt into full-scale flame wars?
That entry doesn't show BZP as being capable of handling political discussion, it shows that they can't follow the current blog rules, and during the brief window that they did, they could mention who they'd vote for, which is not the same thing as a political discussion. The moment that blog entry had turned into an actual discussion and gone to "why would you vote for that person, ew?" and it would, BZP would have done what BZP does. And that is being incapable of a political discussion without erupting into a flamewar.

There's a difference between criticizing others' opinions and giving reasons as to why your support yours rather than others'. It's the difference between a discussion and a debate. From what I've seen of the rules, BZPower disallows political discussions because they can lead into flame wars -- yet flame wars have also erupted over Bionicle and over other subjects.The most serious offenses in the blog entry Sumiki linked were stating reasons as to why they supported a candidate or candidates and discussing how to best choose a candidate. Isn't explaining the reasoning behind your choice a way of stopping flaming? One user stated he was socialist and was not flamed at all.I'm against allowing political debates everywhere on the forums, but maybe in the more relaxed atmosphere of the blogs, small-talk about politically-related subjects would work. Obviously no full-on debates should be allowed (if politicians can't refrain from insults, why should teens be able to do so?

). I understand if the BZPower staff doesn't like the following reason, but allowing political discussions (not debates) might also open up a few staff positions to be filled; at least, BZPower's members would like that reason. :PA question before we drop this subject for good: Why does BZPower stop political discussions altogether instead of punishing the individuals responsible for flaming as in other rule-breaking actions?

Peach 00 · January 3, 2012

Although I'd say that Sumiki picked a pretty good choice to show that BZP can handle political discussion, I find it offensive that DV is calling people incapable. If you read the blog entry, it did die down in the end, as I promised that I wouldn't let it go anymore over the edge. Of course, it got locked, which I planned on doing anyway, but I still find it offensive that I'm getting blamed for breaking blog rules. Yes, maybe I did (I probably did), but although I don't want to throw everybody else who discussed under the bus, they also argued. One person in their I was joking and laughing with more than arguing, but two or three other members did begin to argue, even though I wasn't trying to push towards that. I'm not going to name names, but any of you who view the entry will see some of the members I'm talking about. Others in there actually handled things maturely, but one kept on going on, even when I didn't intend on arguing.As well, there was a guy that said he was a socialist (as LL said), and I simply joked and said that I was a conservative. One of those other things that shouldn't be ruled out would just to say what political party you stand for, which might not begin as many flame wars as other topics would. Still, I do agree with Legolover on most of what he said, and even though I'd love to discuss politics, I don't think it might end well no matter how much it's moderated, even though I'd love it. Nonetheless, that guy wasn't flamed - we joked. There's no harm in joking unless people take it too seriously or take it too far, honestly, but about three members didn't argue, and that's what I wanted but it didn't go as well as I thought.Long rant aside, I think this issue should be closed, should this go on any further, and follow as Black Six said: Stay on topic, as political discussion wasn't supposed to be a part of the discussion. I was partially to blame in that entry, but others were, too, and some didn't handle it as maturely as they should have. Issue handled, case closed - let's get back on topic.EDIT: Seeing as LL posted before I could, here's my answer: BZP apparently doesn't want to individually punish others I suppose, as the members might feel singled out for being responsible for arguing. But it's probably better that they just end it altogether, instead of going to the trouble of punishing everybody. I agree with you, but I have a feeling that's a reason if not the reason.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Peach 00

**dviddy** · January 3, 2012

Although I'd say that Sumiki picked a pretty good choice to show that BZP can handle political discussion, I find it offensive that DV is calling people incapable. If you read the blog entry, it did die down in the end, as I promised that I wouldn't let it go anymore over the edge. Of course, it got locked, which I planned on doing anyway, but I still find it offensive that I'm getting blamed for breaking blog rules. Yes, maybe I did (I probably did), but although I don't want to throw everybody else who discussed under the bus, they also argued. One person in their I was joking and laughing with more than arguing, but two or three other members did begin to argue, even though I wasn't trying to push towards that. I'm not going to name names, but any of you who view the entry will see some of the members I'm talking about. Others in there actually handled things maturely, but one kept on going on, even when I didn't intend on arguing.As well, there was a guy that said he was a socialist (as LL said), and I simply joked and said that I was a conservative. One of those other things that shouldn't be ruled out would just to say what political party you stand for, which might not begin as many flame wars as other topics would. Still, I do agree with Legolover on most of what he said, and even though I'd love to discuss politics, I don't think it might end well no matter how much it's moderated, even though I'd love it. Nonetheless, that guy wasn't flamed - we joked. There's no harm in joking unless people take it too seriously or take it too far, honestly, but about three members didn't argue, and that's what I wanted but it didn't go as well as I thought.Long rant aside, I think this issue should be closed, should this go on any further, and follow as Black Six said: Stay on topic, as political discussion wasn't supposed to be a part of the discussion. I was partially to blame in that entry, but others were, too, and some didn't handle it as maturely as they should have. Issue handled, case closed - let's get back on topic.EDIT: Seeing as LL posted before I could, here's my answer: BZP apparently doesn't want to individually punish others I suppose, as the members might feel singled out for being responsible for arguing. But it's probably better that they just end it altogether, instead of going to the trouble of punishing everybody. I agree with you, but I have a feeling that's a reason if not the reason.

I must have missed the part in my post where I blamed the owner of the blog? Or anyone in particular? The comments in that entry broke the rules, so it was closed. And you can find it offensive if you like, but yes, BZP members, as a group, are incapable of talking politics and religion without flaming. There is a reason this rule is in place, and it's because we tried it and it didn't work. You guys think this was a rule from the beginning? Every political or religious topic that came up ended the same way. Every time. So we instituted that rule. And it stopped. I'm okay with our more relaxed "you can state who you're voting for" in the blogs rule, but even then I feel it can lead to some problems with members losing respect for others based on nothing more than disagreeing opinions, and that carrying over into other threads and discussions. That is a very real problem, and while I think BZP has done better on that than other forums and places I've been, it could definitely still happen.Also, the idea that we don't punish individual flamers when they are the only one is ridiculous. We have a very dedicated staff, and we will always do our best to take care of troublemakers. The problem with politics and religion is that those turn flamey all on their own, because people tie their identity more to those areas than most others, and people get overly passionate, and regular, normally upstanding members can get vitrolic. We punish trolls, purposefully and by design. It's a lot harder to punish individuals who are flaming when it's like thirty members who have all gotten upset. But hey, if you want to continue to imply that we're just being lazy and taking the easy way out, after the staff spent years closing political and religious discussions because they all turned into flame wars, then by all means. But as Andrew has stated, that rule is not going to change.

Legolover-361 · January 3, 2012

I never meant to imply that the staff didn't punish individual members for flaming, only that for most demeanors (for example, trolling), only the guilty user or users are punished and the entire topic isn't closed just because of a few users' actions. DeeVee, you answered by saying numerous political discussions in the past became flame wars too easily, so I'll drop that; I was unaware that the no politics / religion rule had been nonexistent for years.Though, I disagree that BZPower members as a group are incapable of discussing politics. Outside BZPower, I've discussed political issues with a couple people who are users here, and they handle political discussions well, as do I. I don't know how many BZPower members can discuss politics maturely, though, so again I'll drop that.Perhaps on the blogs, we could be allowed to mention our reasons for supporting a particular candidate without alluding to anyone else's reasons? Just saying I support someone or something feels hollow.

xon · January 3, 2012

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.EDIT: This topic kind of spiraled into BZPower's incapability to discuss politics and religion. I'm sorry if this post is out of place.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Cherixon

Aanchir · January 3, 2012

Good to see you here, Black Six, and that you took the time to post something this long.
For all the remaining forums, we don't lump Bionicle in with LEGO in the descriptions because BZP started out as a Bionicle-focused site and that is our way of acknowledging our roots. All the Creative forums (with a couple exceptions noted above) as well as others like Media and Digital Discussion, can have LEGO-related content. It's up to you guys, the members, to make it. Perhaps the staff needs to work more to encourage that, and if you all have any suggestions on how to do so, I'm all ears.
While Media and Digital Disscussion lend themselves to Lego Discussion okay (I've seen topics in there on some Ninjago and Hero Factory stuff, in addition to the latest initiatives), I don't think the Library does as well, because writing fanfics is an expansion of what is already there in terms of story. It's like pulling tools out of a box. I have an enviroment that's part of Bionicle (for example) or a character that's a part of Bionicle, and I am going to write a new story with it. Maybe I will place a character that I like in Bionicle in some new situation or invent my own character to endure some challenges in a Bionicle environment. If I'm moving a character that's already there, I know it well, because in Bionicle there was usually a good deal of development behind that person. I know how that character will react in position Z.But right now, Lego's other themes are shallower. There's less character development, so I cannot identify with the character I've taken out of the the franchise to write with. There is simply less possible situations, whereas Bionicle has nearly indefinite ones. There isn't as much room for a new take. So it is easier to write Bionicle fan fiction, so that's what you get.In general, it is easier to write fan fiction on huge franchises with a lot of story like Star Wars and Star Trek and LoTR anyway - I mean, you see more of that stuff. It's generally true that the more story detail you get from the main story, the more fan fics you get.

First of all, the comment on how LEGO themes besides BIONICLE are shallower and lack character development indicate to me that you haven't read any of Greg Farshtey's Ninjago books. These have lots of rich character development-- as much as the BIONICLE books had, I'd argue, and more than BIONICLE as a whole had in its formative years. Zane is currently my favorite character, but I also like Jay and Nya's relationship and hope to see more stuff referencing it in future books and TV episodes. Lord Garmadon gets loads of character development, and is already shaping up to be as much of a villain as Makuta Teridax was, and perhaps even more of one than the ambiguous and foreboding spirit of evil he was back in 2001.My next point connects to what I said about BIONICLE's formative years. In 2001-2003, character development in BIONICLE was generally less significant than what we've seen in Ninjago, and only slightly more significant than what we saw in Hero Factory. It wasn't until the BIONICLE books and movies began in 2003 that we saw a great deal of meaningful character development, besides a few trite lessons about teamwork and self-control in the comics. However, 2001-2003 had no shortage of BIONICLE fan art, MOCs, and fan fiction. Meanwhile there's plenty of wonderful fan fiction today that uses only fans' original characters, only mentioning official BIONICLE characters in passing if at all.I'm sure if BZPower had a huge influx of new members interested in newer LEGO themes, we'd see a lot of Hero Factory and Ninjago fan fiction. The lack of fan fiction for themes like Knights' Kingdom and Exo-Force is probably just because few people have adjusted to BZPower's new, broader focus, and also because like BIONICLE these themes are relics of the past that don't offer up new material for fans' inspiration.There are times I consider writing Hero Factory or Ninjago fan fiction myself. But I am older and wiser than I was when I used to write so many dreadful BIONICLE songfics, not to mention my dead-end epic Frost Rising. I don't really have the talent or the experience to make my imaginative story concepts anything more than a short and shallow narrative. And I think the same applies to a lot of people. There is no shortage of ideas floating around, but there's just not enough sharing of these ideas at this time for competent people to seize them up and work them into masterpieces.

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.EDIT: This topic kind of spiraled into BZPower's incapability to discuss politics and religion. I'm sorry if this post is out of place.

I take issue with your assumption that a person is not a fan of BIONICLE unless they want it back. I am a fan of Neil Gaiman's The Sandman series of graphic novels. Those told a cohesive story in ten books. There have been occasional side-stories released since then, but I have no reason to ever want to see the original comic series come back, because it told a story as well as it could be told in as many books as it needed to tell that story.Likewise, I'm a big fan of the comic book series The Adventures of Tintin. There is still material to anticipate from that in the future, given the recent movie (which I loved greatly). But do I ever want to see brand-new Tintin stories told? No. The author, Herge, is long-dead, and as far as I'm concerned only he could do Tintin justice with his original storytelling. The creators of the new film do a wonderful job piecing together various parts of the Tintin books into a cohesive and entertaining narrative worthy of Herge himself. But only Herge could do the same for a brand-new and never-before-seen Tintin adventure.A person can be a Beatles fan and discuss their music online without wanting The Beatles to come back. A person can be a Star Wars fan and discuss the movies online without wanting Star Wars to come back (many, ironically, didn't want Star Wars to come back and were quite disappointed when it did). A person can be a fan of any number of things for which the authors are either finished writing or dead and buried, but these fans can still find plenty to discuss about what had come before. That's the thing about ideas. They don't get "used up," contrary to what some people seem to think. A concept that has already been used to its fullest extent can still be a source of inspiration and imaginative appeal for years and years to come.As it is, I loved BIONICLE. I still love BIONICLE. But I loved it as it was, without needing more from the series than I got out of it, and I can be happy with it whether it comes back or not. New stories could be told, and I'm sure if the demand ever emerges, TLG will tell those stories, and I will lap it up-- along with the sure-to-be-beautiful set designs that the story exists to sell. But I do not need those new stories, especially when other themes exist to tell me brand-new stories with a different sort of tone than BIONICLE's rich and epic mythos.Many BIONICLE fans felt the same even before the theme ended. They continued producing BIONICLE art, MOCs, and fan fiction whether or not they cared for the newest stories and sets. What had come before was what they found most enjoyable and inspiring. There's no reason to assume that a theme, because it has ended, leaves nothing new to discuss, and in fact the lessons we as a fandom learned from BIONICLE can be used to better analyze and appreciate other LEGO themes, just as LEGO has used those same lessons to create those same themes.

**Mesonak** · January 3, 2012

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.EDIT: This topic kind of spiraled into BZPower's incapability to discuss politics and religion. I'm sorry if this post is out of place.

EDIT: Right off the bat I can tell Aanchir formed his opinions much better than I have (what else is new?

), but nonetheless, I'm going to post my thoughts regarding your assumptions.The majority of BZPower members started out (and remain) diehard BIONICLE fans. The majority of BZPower are realists, people that see past the smoke and mirrors and see sense in the face of overwhelming odds. A good portion of BZPower enjoys Hero Factory, but also are able to recognize flaws with it., AKA they're not blinded by their undying loyalty to the theme. With me so far? Good.The reason Hero Factory has certain... things wrong with it (such as a lackluster storyline, a lack of mature characterization, 'simplistic' sets, depending on your perspective) is because Lego has a certain train of thought when creating their constraction lines: that complicated storylines that chain together into a cohesive whole can get in the way of potential customers being able to enjoy the sets, and as such, they may not want to buy any for fear of being confused or not being able to enjoy the theme to its full potential. Hence why Hero Factory has an episodic story. Hence why Ninjago, which does in fact have a very rich story and various mediums in which to express that, is more geared towards younger kids than BIONICLE was. This is what Lego's goal is for now with story-driven themes. Whether this is unfounded or not has yet to be determined, at least to the fan community.Regardless, if BIONICLE were to come back ANY TIME in the near future, it would operate under that mentality. It would likely have a Hero Factory-esque build system, or a build system that follows similar traits (those who say otherwise are deluding themselves), would have a storyline very similar to HF's, and for long time fans, the chances of the fan community accepting it would be slim to none. It wouldn't surprise me if everyone would wish it had never came back, and those who lobbied for its return would be very saddened. To be a fan of BIONICLE is to respect BIONICLE, and as such, I don't want BIONICLE back under these circumstances. In... 5, 10 years that could all change. But we're talking abouy now.To summarize: those who "don't like BIONICLE" may value BIONICLE more than those that want it to return at all costs, no matter the state in which it returns.Also, on the whole political discussion thing: This has been going on for years, being debated in the forums as to whether or not it should be allowed. This is my problem with the whole thing.Let's say I have some strong political views that I want to express, and possibly get into a friendly debate with some people regarding my beliefs. I'm looking for a place on the internet to do so.I'm going to do it on a Lego fansite..........I understand if you're an active BZPower user you want to use BZP as your "base of operations' of sorts for everything you wish to discuss, but instead of spending your time trying to get political and/or religious discussions allowed... why not do it via IM? Or one of the hundreds of political forums that exist on the internet? It makes no sense to me.-Mesonak Edited January 3, 2012 by Mesonak

fishers64 · January 4, 2012

Good to see you here, Black Six, and that you took the time to post something this long.
For all the remaining forums, we don't lump Bionicle in with LEGO in the descriptions because BZP started out as a Bionicle-focused site and that is our way of acknowledging our roots. All the Creative forums (with a couple exceptions noted above) as well as others like Media and Digital Discussion, can have LEGO-related content. It's up to you guys, the members, to make it. Perhaps the staff needs to work more to encourage that, and if you all have any suggestions on how to do so, I'm all ears.
While Media and Digital Disscussion lend themselves to Lego Discussion okay (I've seen topics in there on some Ninjago and Hero Factory stuff, in addition to the latest initiatives), I don't think the Library does as well, because writing fanfics is an expansion of what is already there in terms of story. It's like pulling tools out of a box. I have an enviroment that's part of Bionicle (for example) or a character that's a part of Bionicle, and I am going to write a new story with it. Maybe I will place a character that I like in Bionicle in some new situation or invent my own character to endure some challenges in a Bionicle environment. If I'm moving a character that's already there, I know it well, because in Bionicle there was usually a good deal of development behind that person. I know how that character will react in position Z.But right now, Lego's other themes are shallower. There's less character development, so I cannot identify with the character I've taken out of the the franchise to write with. There is simply less possible situations, whereas Bionicle has nearly indefinite ones. There isn't as much room for a new take. So it is easier to write Bionicle fan fiction, so that's what you get.In general, it is easier to write fan fiction on huge franchises with a lot of story like Star Wars and Star Trek and LoTR anyway - I mean, you see more of that stuff. It's generally true that the more story detail you get from the main story, the more fan fics you get.
First of all, the comment on how LEGO themes besides BIONICLE are shallower and lack character development indicate to me that you haven't read any of Greg Farshtey's Ninjago books. These have lots of rich character development-- as much as the BIONICLE books had, I'd argue, and more than BIONICLE as a whole had in its formative years. Zane is currently my favorite character, but I also like Jay and Nya's relationship and hope to see more stuff referencing it in future books and TV episodes. Lord Garmadon gets loads of character development, and is already shaping up to be as much of a villain as Makuta Teridax was, and perhaps even more of one than the ambiguous and foreboding spirit of evil he was back in 2001.My next point connects to what I said about BIONICLE's formative years. In 2001-2003, character development in BIONICLE was generally less significant than what we've seen in Ninjago, and only slightly more significant than what we saw in Hero Factory. It wasn't until the BIONICLE books and movies began in 2003 that we saw a great deal of meaningful character development, besides a few trite lessons about teamwork and self-control in the comics. However, 2001-2003 had no shortage of BIONICLE fan art, MOCs, and fan fiction. Meanwhile there's plenty of wonderful fan fiction today that uses only fans' original characters, only mentioning official BIONICLE characters in passing if at all.I'm sure if BZPower had a huge influx of new members interested in newer LEGO themes, we'd see a lot of Hero Factory and Ninjago fan fiction. The lack of fan fiction for themes like Knights' Kingdom and Exo-Force is probably just because few people have adjusted to BZPower's new, broader focus, and also because like BIONICLE these themes are relics of the past that don't offer up new material for fans' inspiration.There are times I consider writing Hero Factory or Ninjago fan fiction myself. But I am older and wiser than I was when I used to write so many dreadful BIONICLE songfics, not to mention my dead-end epic Frost Rising. I don't really have the talent or the experience to make my imaginative story concepts anything more than a short and shallow narrative. And I think the same applies to a lot of people. There is no shortage of ideas floating around, but there's just not enough sharing of these ideas at this time for competent people to seize them up and work them into masterpieces.

Or there aren't enough "competent people" who are fans of the theme. Ninjago's target audience is boys who like ninjas. There's a big ninja craze now in the younger boys of this world, and Lego has picked up on that. Obviously, they are telling story about those ninjas because ninjas kind of need a story, or at least something to fight, anyway. Can you expect a bunch of ninja-crazed boys to start writing fanfics about them? I would hardly think they would have the patience for that (and yes, I have seen ninja-crazy boys). It's an entirely different ball game.Knight's Kingdom and Exo-Force did not not last for ten years, and Exo-Force, as you mentioned, didn't even have an ending. That equals less storyline material in my book. And Ninjago has only been around for a year or two. There is less details to build off of.Bionicle improved over time, yes. And there was one book in 2001 called Tale of the Toa. And there was MNOG with all the amazing quotes. There was story depth in 2001. Granted, it wasn't as good as 2004, but Lego was just trying out this new thing. Besides, the use of fan-made characters is more of a possibility with Bionicle, because the Matoran Universe has more inhabitants that we presumably haven't met, and characters can have powers and do cool stuff - and there is a lot of species options for characters and options for problems and things that can happen to them.Now, granted, I haven't read any Ninjago stuff. I have little to no interest in ninjas. There's always the lack of interest factor - you're not going to write a fan fic for something you don't like, and most of us here still like Bionicle, in case the front page has been totally missed.

~kh · January 4, 2012

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.

Here's what I got from this.About a decade or two back, the Batman film series was released and many fans enjoyed the movie, which paired Michael Keaton's Batman against Jack Nicholson's Joker in, for that time, the first mature look at a superhero movie in a long time.Fast forward a couple years and you then have the release of Joel Schumacher's Batman and Robin, quite honestly recognized as one of the worst films of all time.It was at this point that countless fans turned against the series, and quite honestly, who could blame them? The quality of the movies had gone down drastically in the past few years, and if allowed to continue would only grow worse. That didn't mean that they were not fans of Batman anymore, or that they hated the early movies which drew them in. It did, however, mean that they didn't want to see any more sequels to this current film franchise because the movies were getting worse and worse.The same thing applies here. Honestly? I still like BIONICLE. I like the early years and the atmosphere that they brought to fans, the feel of the island, the sense that you were in fact exploring a world. But the later years? 2009 and 2010 introduced me to a new location with characters that I just didn't connect with or find interesting. Couple that with a lackluster ending and I honestly didn't want to see BIONICLE continue on its current path.I still am a fan of the works I enjoy, but I don't want BIONICLE to continue because I feel like it would only get worse. I'm a fan of the years that drew me in, of the story that I remember actually being original and enjoyable. But being a fan does not mean that I am indebted to love every single thing that the work does.I'm on this site because I have several projects that I want to continue and this is a good place to have discussion about what I liked about BIONICLE.As for the site itself, I feel like it needs to really find its identity and stick to it. I feel like this site is sort of unsure of where it wants to go, trying to balance itself as a LEGO site alongside a BIONICLE one. I'm in favor of focusing on constraction sets, honestly, since its probably the best bet so far. There are other much larger LEGO forums out there, and becoming a general LEGO site would not offer any honest alternative to those sites.However, I will say that it is still possible to have news posted daily about a "dead" franchise. The Earthbound fanbase is a good example of this: the game itself has not been released in North America in about fifteen years and appearance in other games is limited to Super Smash Bros., yet I have seen several fansites that do continue to produce news worthy new every day for the past several years.This does mostly come from a more in-depth focus on the community as a whole, something I feel BZPower has been lacking in. Community spotlights should be much more frequent and reoccurring than they already are.

King Joe · January 4, 2012

I would agree with Kahi on where BZP should go. At first, I thought it would be fantastic to have BZP go general Lego, the. I realized something: The only places I really use BZP for are either COT, Bionicle based, or Hero Factory based, with a little Ninjago discussion thrown in here and there. So it is my opinion that BZP should focus on the constraction lines, while still keeping general Lego discussion around, but not as prominent. I also think that both the main page and the forums should reflect this. When I look at the forums, I see a whole section devoted to various aspects of Bionicle discussion. I see two or three places for HF discussion. It is my opinion that the section reserved for Bionicle discussion should become general Constraction discussion, to be used for discussing both HF's story and sets, as well as Bionicles. Give them equal rights so to speak. Also, I look at the front page, and while the news articles are very inclusive (That's what got me here in the first place, news about what I was interested in) the rest screams Bionicle. The Nuva masks are used to tell what kind of articles are up in the news for one thing. I think it could be a bit more inclusive in its graphic presentation. This would have the added effect of bringing in users who may not like Bionicle as much but enjoy HF, bringing a good diversity to the site. Heck, it may even rekindle discussion about Bionicle, with the users who didn't like it as much saying why, and friendly debate ensuing.

Taipu1 · January 4, 2012

I think the overhaul on the front page is an idea, but I don't think it should be de-Bionicleised completely, we can't forget our routes. I don't see a problem with the Nuva masks for each news story, they're small but they remind us it's a Bionicle site.I also think that people may be put off BZP as it obviously appears to be a diminishing forum. Other than news stories that mainly consist of reviews and Lego articles, there isn't much member content, and I think more could be featured. I scimmed backwards through the news archive, and the last spotlight on a topic (Eva Unit 02) was early November. More member content on the front page would be a step towards making the site more appealing to new members.

Toa of Nerds · January 4, 2012

@DeeVee: Do you have a link of some old politcal topic that got out of hand? I'm just curious. I do not think the front page should be de-bionicleized at all. Bionicle is inherant in BZPower's identity. It should be updated to better relfect the community, but I think it should retain it's unique tie to Bionicle. Perhaps some notes about it being about contraction sets as well, but BZPower should always be Bionicle at its core. -don't touch my pocket protector

King Joe · January 4, 2012

I think the overhaul on the front page is an idea, but I don't think it should be de-Bionicleised completely, we can't forget our routes. I don't see a problem with the Nuva masks for each news story, they're small but they remind us it's a Bionicle site.

I wasn't suggesting completely, but making it more inclusive. And the Nuva masks were just an example. @Toa of Nerds, I think what needs to be remembered is that the front page is what everyone sees first. For instance, let's say you were buying a BIONICLE set. If the box and packaging all said Hero Factory, you would think that it's not what you want and get a different one, when it actually has the BIONICLE pieces and instructions. (I know that will never happen, but bear with me) In the same way, if the forums become equally inclusive of both BIONICLE and Hero Factory, but the Frontpage only has BIONICLE, potential users interested in a place to talk about Hero Factory would leave. First Impressions are everything.

Aanchir · January 4, 2012

Good to see you here, Black Six, and that you took the time to post something this long.
For all the remaining forums, we don't lump Bionicle in with LEGO in the descriptions because BZP started out as a Bionicle-focused site and that is our way of acknowledging our roots. All the Creative forums (with a couple exceptions noted above) as well as others like Media and Digital Discussion, can have LEGO-related content. It's up to you guys, the members, to make it. Perhaps the staff needs to work more to encourage that, and if you all have any suggestions on how to do so, I'm all ears.
While Media and Digital Disscussion lend themselves to Lego Discussion okay (I've seen topics in there on some Ninjago and Hero Factory stuff, in addition to the latest initiatives), I don't think the Library does as well, because writing fanfics is an expansion of what is already there in terms of story. It's like pulling tools out of a box. I have an enviroment that's part of Bionicle (for example) or a character that's a part of Bionicle, and I am going to write a new story with it. Maybe I will place a character that I like in Bionicle in some new situation or invent my own character to endure some challenges in a Bionicle environment. If I'm moving a character that's already there, I know it well, because in Bionicle there was usually a good deal of development behind that person. I know how that character will react in position Z.But right now, Lego's other themes are shallower. There's less character development, so I cannot identify with the character I've taken out of the the franchise to write with. There is simply less possible situations, whereas Bionicle has nearly indefinite ones. There isn't as much room for a new take. So it is easier to write Bionicle fan fiction, so that's what you get.In general, it is easier to write fan fiction on huge franchises with a lot of story like Star Wars and Star Trek and LoTR anyway - I mean, you see more of that stuff. It's generally true that the more story detail you get from the main story, the more fan fics you get.
First of all, the comment on how LEGO themes besides BIONICLE are shallower and lack character development indicate to me that you haven't read any of Greg Farshtey's Ninjago books. These have lots of rich character development-- as much as the BIONICLE books had, I'd argue, and more than BIONICLE as a whole had in its formative years. Zane is currently my favorite character, but I also like Jay and Nya's relationship and hope to see more stuff referencing it in future books and TV episodes. Lord Garmadon gets loads of character development, and is already shaping up to be as much of a villain as Makuta Teridax was, and perhaps even more of one than the ambiguous and foreboding spirit of evil he was back in 2001.My next point connects to what I said about BIONICLE's formative years. In 2001-2003, character development in BIONICLE was generally less significant than what we've seen in Ninjago, and only slightly more significant than what we saw in Hero Factory. It wasn't until the BIONICLE books and movies began in 2003 that we saw a great deal of meaningful character development, besides a few trite lessons about teamwork and self-control in the comics. However, 2001-2003 had no shortage of BIONICLE fan art, MOCs, and fan fiction. Meanwhile there's plenty of wonderful fan fiction today that uses only fans' original characters, only mentioning official BIONICLE characters in passing if at all.I'm sure if BZPower had a huge influx of new members interested in newer LEGO themes, we'd see a lot of Hero Factory and Ninjago fan fiction. The lack of fan fiction for themes like Knights' Kingdom and Exo-Force is probably just because few people have adjusted to BZPower's new, broader focus, and also because like BIONICLE these themes are relics of the past that don't offer up new material for fans' inspiration.There are times I consider writing Hero Factory or Ninjago fan fiction myself. But I am older and wiser than I was when I used to write so many dreadful BIONICLE songfics, not to mention my dead-end epic Frost Rising. I don't really have the talent or the experience to make my imaginative story concepts anything more than a short and shallow narrative. And I think the same applies to a lot of people. There is no shortage of ideas floating around, but there's just not enough sharing of these ideas at this time for competent people to seize them up and work them into masterpieces.
Or there aren't enough "competent people" who are fans of the theme. Ninjago's target audience is boys who like ninjas. There's a big ninja craze now in the younger boys of this world, and Lego has picked up on that. Obviously, they are telling story about those ninjas because ninjas kind of need a story, or at least something to fight, anyway. Can you expect a bunch of ninja-crazed boys to start writing fanfics about them? I would hardly think they would have the patience for that (and yes, I have seen ninja-crazy boys). It's an entirely different ball game.Knight's Kingdom and Exo-Force did not not last for ten years, and Exo-Force, as you mentioned, didn't even have an ending. That equals less storyline material in my book. And Ninjago has only been around for a year or two. There is less details to build off of.Bionicle improved over time, yes. And there was one book in 2001 called Tale of the Toa. And there was MNOG with all the amazing quotes. There was story depth in 2001. Granted, it wasn't as good as 2004, but Lego was just trying out this new thing. Besides, the use of fan-made characters is more of a possibility with Bionicle, because the Matoran Universe has more inhabitants that we presumably haven't met, and characters can have powers and do cool stuff - and there is a lot of species options for characters and options for problems and things that can happen to them.Now, granted, I haven't read any Ninjago stuff. I have little to no interest in ninjas. There's always the lack of interest factor - you're not going to write a fan fic for something you don't like, and most of us here still like Bionicle, in case the front page has been totally missed.

Tale of the Toa covered 2001 story, but it was not released in 2001. Like the other BIONICLE books by C. A. Hapka, it was released in 2003. Meanwhile, there was story depth in the MNOLG, but not much character development. Takua, the main character, was a complete mystery until the conclusion of the theme, and the Toa, while their roles were significant, did not learn any especially valuable lessons. Mata Nui Online Game's role was largely for purposes of exposition and world-building, acting to show people through an interactive experience the universe in which the theme took place.Your generalization of Ninjago's audience seems a bit misguided IMO. You assume that "kids who like ninjas" are the main component of the audience, but I can assure you that a lot of BIONICLE's early fans were probably "kids who like robots". How is that so much different? This also ignores the periphery demographic of older fans, which exists for all LEGO themes and in fact often exists to a larger extent than it did with BIONICLE (which Adult Fans of LEGO on other, more mainstream LEGO sites often tended to revile).It's also worth noting that Ninjago's target audience isn't considerably different than BIONICLE's. The age range for most Ninjago sets is 7-14. The earliest BIONICLE sets had the vague age range of 7+. Later when BIONICLE introduced an "age cap" to make the suggested age ranges a bit more specific, the age range tended to be "7-16", so the maximum recommended age is a bit higher, but the minimum age is the same. I'm sure once the Ninjago TV series fully kicks off on Cartoon Network, the theme will become much more visible to older fans as well.Obviously story themes besides BIONICLE will have less detail for writers to build off of than BIONICLE, which ran for nine full years. But creative expression isn't about competition. Even in 2001-2003 BIONICLE had a strong web presence with plenty of fan fiction and fanart being produced. Why, then, is it assumed that a theme has to last nine years to be a viable source of inspiration?It's true that most people here like BIONICLE. But BIONICLE is not providing new sources of inspiration for writers and artists, unlike themes like Hero Factory and Ninjago. And while the old sources of inspiration will never be exhausted (I am a firm believer that ideas are an inexhaustible resource and will never, ever run out), as the years go on they will only continue to lose prominence in the public consciousness, while the stories behind Ninjago and Hero Factory will continue to attract the public attention for as long as these themes remain successful. And as long as these themes have characteristics in common with BIONICLE, some of the attention they attract will be from BIONICLE fans here on BZPower.

Toa Zaz · January 4, 2012

This topic seems to state that there used to be political discussion on BZPower. Could someone please link to a topic or something? In all the time I've been following BZPower (several years before I joined) I've never seen political discussion.

Waffles · January 4, 2012

It hasn't but Sumiki thinks that a certain blog entry implied there could be, and has said so a couple times.

**dviddy** · January 5, 2012

This topic seems to state that there used to be political discussion on BZPower. Could someone please link to a topic or something? In all the time I've been following BZPower (several years before I joined) I've never seen political discussion.

Yes, there used to be political discussions on BZPower. A very long time ago. No, I don't have links, because I don't feel like digging through ten years of information in CoT to find them. Those rules have been in place for a very long time, the topics I'm referencing are not recent. Not even a little bit.

Klak · January 5, 2012

Okay, first off, this topic started off really well, but the past few posts have really been veering off topic to what certain people consider appropriate content and at what ages people should be allowed to see certain things. That's not the purpose of this topic and guess what - it's getting close to political discussion.Next point - I do not foresee a time when BZPower will allow political or religious discussion. I don't want to moderate it, and I don't want to have to ask our staff to do it. I don't care how many of our members are mature enough to carry on such discussion - all it takes is one to ruin it. And yes, politics and religion are very different from other types of off-topic discussion in that people tend to be very polarized on them, which leads very easily to the arguments and flame wars we try to avoid.Moving on - there have been a lot of suggestions and ideas for what direction BZPower should take. The view of the administration is that our niche that has allowed us to exist and grow in the past is our openness to members of all ages. This will continue to be our main focus.As many have pointed out, Bionicle is dead. BZPower is no longer a Bionicle only site. There are only six forums with 'Bionicle' in their title. All other forums are for LEGO and Bionicle discussion.Let's take a quick look at those six:
[*]Bionicle Sets & Collectibles - We also have the LEGO Sets and Hero Factory Sets forums to discuss non-Bionicle things.[*]Bionicle Storyline & Theories - No other LEGO theme has the kind of story Bionicle had. The Hero Factory and Ninjago TV shorts can be discussed in Media Discussion, and any other story-related things can go in LEGO Discussion.[*]Bionicle Reference Center - This is essentially an offshoot of S&T and hasn't really been repopulated yet due to bones' schedule.[*]Bionicle-Based Creations - We actually debated renaming this 'Constraction-Based Creations' or something like that, but it's been such a pillar of the site we decided against it. Anything constraction-related belongs there though, and all other creations can go in SBC.[*]Bionicle RPG - There is a separate LEGO RPG forum, although I know that has not been spun up yet really. We are working on it.[*]BionicleSector01 - That's the name of the site. If Swert asked me to rename it to BS01/HS01 or something like that, I would.
For all the remaining forums, we don't lump Bionicle in with LEGO in the descriptions because BZP started out as a Bionicle-focused site and that is our way of acknowledging our roots. All the Creative forums (with a couple exceptions noted above) as well as others like Media and Digital Discussion, can have LEGO-related content. It's up to you guys, the members, to make it. Perhaps the staff needs to work more to encourage that, and if you all have any suggestions on how to do so, I'm all ears.So from that perspective we are definitely a site for all LEGO themes, although our focus will continue to be on Bionicle and constraction. I think that's a nice balance and puts us in a place where we don't overlap with other sites out there. Yes, you can talk about all LEGO themes, but you're probably not going to join unless you really like Bionicle or Hero Factory or whatever the next constraction line is.From the visual perspective - yes, the front page needs to be updated to more reflect this. You can put it on the long list of things we need to do.Regarding Completely Off Topic - my position has always been that we are a LEGO (formerly Bionicle) fan site. So sure if I also happen to like other things like Star Wars or My Little Pony or whatever I should be able to talk about them here, but I'm not going to want to post my stories about those things here any more than I'd want to post my Bionicle stories on a Star Trek fan site. It just doesn't make sense to me. The same goes with RPGs and other creative content that people want to have a separate subforum for - we're not going to ban it, but this is a LEGO site so we're not going to make it our top priority.People have also brought up the word filter and advertising rules. We know many of you aren't happy with them and we do plan to change them. I can't tell you when it will finally happen though.As far as losing members goes, the downtime definitely affected us, but honestly I have been surprised by just how many members have come back, and I don't think we're nearly as dead as some are suggesting. And we do have new members registering just about every day, so I don't think of us as losing more members than are joining but rather that we lost a bunch of members and are now getting new ones - we're on an upwards path.I hope BZPower continues to serve a purpose to the overall LEGO community by catering to an audience no other site does. I look forward to fixing some of the things people have issues with and doing our best to add content and more value for everyone.

Thanks for posting, Black Six. Its great to see some feedback from you. However, I must list some disagreements I have.First off, I do not think the phrase "Bionicle is dead" is completely true (not just because it isn't an organic living thing), because the serials have been updated (despite their long hiatus).Second, I only brought up the COT point as an example. If people want to turn this site into 'HeroPower' just because some percentage of the members happen to like Hero Factory, we would be better off naming the site 'COTPower' or No-Topic Zone', because more members find themselves in that area. By no means was I suggesting it as a possible route. I want BZP to stay BZP.

While I think that a political topic could work, it would have to be very closely monitored. It'd be too much trouble for the staff to try and keep everything under a boil, and thus it wouldn't be feasible to create and run. Being a topic on BZPower's future, and Black Six having nixed the concept of such a topic once and for all, I think it's time we move off of that subject and on to something a little more on-topic.While I agree with Black Six saying that we're still gaining members, I disagree with the logic that new membership leads to more posts and more activity. We have over 47,000 members, and only a very small fraction are active. It's been that way as long as just about anyone can recall, and there's no reason to believe that members who join now will have any more impetus to post than the thousands who joined and have been inactive since - especially seeing as BIONICLE is all but dead, which has been mentioned ad lib, ad nauseam, and ad infinitum. That's the only part of his post I find myself disagreeing with, and I may have read it the wrong way at that.

It's true. Many times, I see tons of members who are celebrating their birthdays. I can't tell you how many times I've found them to be non-posting inhabitants.

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.EDIT: This topic kind of spiraled into BZPower's incapability to discuss politics and religion. I'm sorry if this post is out of place.

Thanks for quoting me!

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.
Here's what I got from this.About a decade or two back, the Batman film series was released and many fans enjoyed the movie, which paired Michael Keaton's Batman against Jack Nicholson's Joker in, for that time, the first mature look at a superhero movie in a long time.Fast forward a couple years and you then have the release of Joel Schumacher's Batman and Robin, quite honestly recognized as one of the worst films of all time.It was at this point that countless fans turned against the series, and quite honestly, who could blame them? The quality of the movies had gone down drastically in the past few years, and if allowed to continue would only grow worse. That didn't mean that they were not fans of Batman anymore, or that they hated the early movies which drew them in. It did, however, mean that they didn't want to see any more sequels to this current film franchise because the movies were getting worse and worse.The same thing applies here. Honestly? I still like BIONICLE. I like the early years and the atmosphere that they brought to fans, the feel of the island, the sense that you were in fact exploring a world. But the later years? 2009 and 2010 introduced me to a new location with characters that I just didn't connect with or find interesting. Couple that with a lackluster ending and I honestly didn't want to see BIONICLE continue on its current path.I still am a fan of the works I enjoy, but I don't want BIONICLE to continue because I feel like it would only get worse. I'm a fan of the years that drew me in, of the story that I remember actually being original and enjoyable. But being a fan does not mean that I am indebted to love every single thing that the work does.I'm on this site because I have several projects that I want to continue and this is a good place to have discussion about what I liked about BIONICLE.As for the site itself, I feel like it needs to really find its identity and stick to it. I feel like this site is sort of unsure of where it wants to go, trying to balance itself as a LEGO site alongside a BIONICLE one. I'm in favor of focusing on constraction sets, honestly, since its probably the best bet so far. There are other much larger LEGO forums out there, and becoming a general LEGO site would not offer any honest alternative to those sites.However, I will say that it is still possible to have news posted daily about a "dead" franchise. The Earthbound fanbase is a good example of this: the game itself has not been released in North America in about fifteen years and appearance in other games is limited to Super Smash Bros., yet I have seen several fansites that do continue to produce news worthy new every day for the past several years.This does mostly come from a more in-depth focus on the community as a whole, something I feel BZPower has been lacking in. Community spotlights should be much more frequent and reoccurring than they already are.

As much as I respect your opinion, I have to say this: you shouldn't compare Bionicle 09-10 to "Batman and Robin". That's a bit extreme.

You didn't see Gelu run around making freeze puns. Mata Nui did not have a "Nui Credit Card". :PAlso, look at Batman now. The past two Nolanverse films have been superb, IMO, and the upcoming movie looks great too (not to mention how great the animated shows and the comics have been doing).However, what you said about 'dead' franchises is true. Perhaps, one day, people will look upon Bionicle with a nostalgic eye. :notsure:

Edited January 5, 2012 by MakutaKlak

~kh · January 5, 2012

As much as I respect your opinion, I have to say this: you shouldn't compare Bionicle 09-10 to "Batman and Robin". That's a bit extreme. You didn't see Gelu run around making freeze puns. Mata Nui did not have a "Nui Credit Card". :PAlso, look at Batman now. The past two Nolanverse films have been superb, IMO, and the upcoming movie looks great too (not to mention how great the animated shows and the comics have been doing).However, what you said about 'dead' franchises is true. Perhaps, one day, people will look upon Bionicle with a nostalgic eye.

Yeah, I'll admit that it was a bit of an extreme comparison. However, I thought it made my point quite well, because pretty much everyone hates "Batman and Robin".And I agree, Christopher Nolan has done wonders with the franchise. This is also my opinion on BIONICLE: I want it to come back if they get the right guy to do it. There is a way to do it right, I just don't think that they were doing it right when it ended nor in the several years before that.Also, people do already look at BIONICLE with a nostalgic eye. The real problem is getting them to look ahead.

Taipu1 · January 5, 2012

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.EDIT: This topic kind of spiraled into BZPower's incapability to discuss politics and religion. I'm sorry if this post is out of place.

I feel one of the things that makes people say they don't want BIONICLE to return is because they're afraid it will ruin it. As far as I, and a lot of others are concerned, the storyline in BIONICLE has always been very good. I have no problem with it, and it was always getting more interesting. Sets on the other hand is a different matter. Sets were going downhill thanks to changes in construction style and less adaptable pieces.On adaptable pieces, I'll use the example that springs to mind of ball socket pieces, the original Bionicle hands. They replaced them in 2008, and they were worse. They couldn't be joined to make long chains anymore using 2 length plus axles, trying to do that would just break them.Then there's the construction of Hero Factory. If BIONICLE does return, it will follow the style of construction of HF, and that just seems wrong. HF construction is simpler, and while the new parts have good applications, someties they almost make things too easy. HF parts are less compatible than BIONICLE parts, they use more ball sockets and less pin and axle connections.Now as usual with me, I've lost track of what I was writing about (considering the length of other peoples posts, this makes me look particularly useless

). What I was getting at is that the story can't exist without the sets, and I don't think many people have faith that new sets would be able to keep the story afloat anymore. Look at BIONICLEs last series of sets. The Stars were terrible. I doubt many would disagree with that when comparing them to every other set prior to them. And then if new sets should fail, it's unlikely many people would keep interest through a second cancellation of BIONICLE.I'm totally ambivolent to the return of BIONICLE, I really want more story, but I want no more sets. And you can't have one without the other. So BZPower should diversify to other Lego themes, I see no reason it should be purely constraction, but if BIONICLE were to return, people should embrace both the sets and the storyline, and remember that Lego primarily makes toys, not fiction.Now its down to everyone else to understand whatever point I was just making

Toa Zaz · January 5, 2012

This topic seems to state that there used to be political discussion on BZPower. Could someone please link to a topic or something? In all the time I've been following BZPower (several years before I joined) I've never seen political discussion.
Yes, there used to be political discussions on BZPower. A very long time ago. No, I don't have links, because I don't feel like digging through ten years of information in CoT to find them. Those rules have been in place for a very long time, the topics I'm referencing are not recent. Not even a little bit.

So you tried something once, ten years ago, and due to a few offensive posts (mildly offensive, obviously, due to the word filter), and now you've put down your foot and said that every member on BZPower is, a decade after the original incident, completely and entirely incapable of engaging in any sort of (again, heavily filtered) political discussion whatsoever? BZPower isn't incapable of political discussion; a few members who have likely completely disappeared from the site said a few stupid things, so now you're banning all the rest of us from discussion.Your assumption is completely unfair to us members who haven't proved ourselves at all yet. Edited January 5, 2012 by Toa Zaz

Taipu1 · January 5, 2012

This topic seems to state that there used to be political discussion on BZPower. Could someone please link to a topic or something? In all the time I've been following BZPower (several years before I joined) I've never seen political discussion.
Yes, there used to be political discussions on BZPower. A very long time ago. No, I don't have links, because I don't feel like digging through ten years of information in CoT to find them. Those rules have been in place for a very long time, the topics I'm referencing are not recent. Not even a little bit.
So you tried something once, ten years ago, and due to a few offensive posts (mildly offensive, obviously, due to the word filter), and now you've put down your foot and said that every member on BZPower is, a decade after the original incident, completely and entirely incapable of engaging in any sort of (again, heavily filtered) political discussion whatsoever? BZPower isn't incapable of political discussion; a few members who have likely completely disappeared from the site said a few stupid things, so now you're banning all the rest of us from discussion.Your assumption is completely unfair to us members who haven't proved ourselves at all yet.

This line of discussion has already been covered, the politics rule is for the benefit of all members. Granted a change in the rule could prove to be part of BZPowers future, but it's unlikely as the forum is targetted at younger people who want to discuss Lego.

Lewa Krom · January 5, 2012

I stated that I had left BZPower as a member, but I'm logging on just to say something on the whole religion/politics thing: Everything has a time and place. BZPower is not the place for religion/politics - It is a place that (used to) be a Bionicle site. If you wish to talk about religion/politics, there are sites to do so. This isn't one of them.And now I leave once more. :glare:

Aanchir · January 5, 2012

I don't see BZPower living much longer for one main reason... no one wants BIONICLE to return. How can we have a forum of BIONICLE supporters if no one wants BIONICLE back? I find that wanting BIONICLE shows people that you're into BIONICLE. Sure, go ahead and call me a newbie for saying BIONICLE deserves to come back and that Hero Factory lacks a good storyline.Why come to a BIONICLE forum just to tell us you don't want it to return. If you're a fan of something, you should usually want the line to return."I am a BZPower member, no? That means I like Bionicle." - MakutaKlakThat quote makes a lot of sense to me. Members of BZPower should like BIONICLE.This is basically one of the main reasons I'm thinking about leaving this forum. Why should I visit a forum that doesn't want BIONICLE to return?Without the people hoping that BIONICLE returns, I don't see BZPower lasting much longer... considering it's a BIONICLE forum.EDIT: This topic kind of spiraled into BZPower's incapability to discuss politics and religion. I'm sorry if this post is out of place.
I feel one of the things that makes people say they don't want BIONICLE to return is because they're afraid it will ruin it. As far as I, and a lot of others are concerned, the storyline in BIONICLE has always been very good. I have no problem with it, and it was always getting more interesting. Sets on the other hand is a different matter. Sets were going downhill thanks to changes in construction style and less adaptable pieces.On adaptable pieces, I'll use the example that springs to mind of ball socket pieces, the original Bionicle hands. They replaced them in 2008, and they were worse. They couldn't be joined to make long chains anymore using 2 length plus axles, trying to do that would just break them.Then there's the construction of Hero Factory. If BIONICLE does return, it will follow the style of construction of HF, and that just seems wrong. HF construction is simpler, and while the new parts have good applications, someties they almost make things too easy. HF parts are less compatible than BIONICLE parts, they use more ball sockets and less pin and axle connections.Now as usual with me, I've lost track of what I was writing about (considering the length of other peoples posts, this makes me look particularly useless ). What I was getting at is that the story can't exist without the sets, and I don't think many people have faith that new sets would be able to keep the story afloat anymore. Look at BIONICLEs last series of sets. The Stars were terrible. I doubt many would disagree with that when comparing them to every other set prior to them. And then if new sets should fail, it's unlikely many people would keep interest through a second cancellation of BIONICLE.I'm totally ambivolent to the return of BIONICLE, I really want more story, but I want no more sets. And you can't have one without the other. So BZPower should diversify to other Lego themes, I see no reason it should be purely constraction, but if BIONICLE were to return, people should embrace both the sets and the storyline, and remember that Lego primarily makes toys, not fiction.Now its down to everyone else to understand whatever point I was just making

I am pretty ambivalent myself, although I felt that BIONICLE set design continually improved from beginning to end, possibly not counting the Stars-- even though they were themselves an improvement on the previous sets with that size and price point, the Agori, and showed far more variety than any other sets that size for many years prior. Some building techniques did become more difficult as time went on, but the one you describe with the Y-joints stressed the pieces from the very beginning (the amount of friction that connection had should have made that obvious) so it wasn't as though TLG had any reason to want to preserve that technique. Meanwhile, the Hero Factory building system introduced last year IMO takes BIONICLE's building system to its natural conclusion, centering on one ball-and-socket style of connection, with Technic merely supplementing the sets the same way it does in System. In my opinion it makes the new parts much more versatile, and is helped by their smooth, consistent aesthetic.I also feel the story stayed of consistently good quality since the beginning. I don't fear that TLG would bring back BIONICLE at sub-par quality in the slightest. However, it would be very difficult to bring it back at the quality it deserves, hence why I don't expect BIONICLE to come back, at least not for several years. Really, for me it just doesn't make a difference whether or not BIONICLE comes back. Either way I expect that TLG will continue making quality sets and quality stories, and see no reason to pressure them to bring back a theme I enjoyed when there are plenty of themes still around to satisfy my LEGO passion.BZPower has been wise to try and curb the backlash against BIONICLE's cancellation and to adapt in the aftermath. Sure, BIONICLE could come back, but if BZPower members had been enough of an audience to keep the theme alive then it wouldn't have ended in the first place. This is why "bring back BIONICLE" petitions seemed such a silly idea to me from the beginning. Now, that doesn't mean we have to "abandon" BIONICLE discussion or anything. But we can still discuss the theme as it was rather than as if there's nothing to talk about but its hypothetical future return. Plenty of people in the BIONICLE Sets forum have done just that, and it's one of the strictly-BIONICLE-related discussion forums I still feel absolutely comfortable visiting.

TLhikan · January 6, 2012

I was unenthusiastic of the idea of Bionicle returning when I thought it would mean a reboot of the story and a return to the HF building style. However, any Bionicle is better than no Bionicle, and with the recent lapse in story updates, it looks like we have no Bionicle. That's not to say I'm jumping on the SIGN THIS PETITION TO BRING BIONICLE BACK crowd; Aanchir is right in that if there where enough of us to bring back Bionicle, it wouldn't have died in the first place. So, I would be eager for Bionicle returned, but I do not think it likely. Also, whatever happened to the New World project?

Edited January 6, 2012 by TLhikan

**Shadow Kurahk** · January 6, 2012

It looks grim right now. A lot can be done to generally improve the member experience, because, as is very apparent, more users are leaving than there are visitors joining, which I don't think looks good to potential members. For example, the ability to link to the other sites that people are just dying to mention would be the first huuuuuuuge step towards 'fixing' the problem.I feel I can speak for a lot of the users that are considering abandoning this site because I'm one of them, and probably for the same reasons. I can't really make a valid statement on the way BZPower is talked about on other forums and online communities because I haven't seen much of it, but from what I have, it doesn't look good, and the same problems come up again and again.Though one big thing is the staff. I mean no disrespect, but a lot of the staff really don't rub off on a lot of us the right way. Sure, they know how to do their job, but what use does it have if over half the active members don't even like them? I'd think it a bit more logical and beneficial to hire somebody that would be liked by the majority of the population. That's not to say that we didn't have high hopes for some of these staff members, as they were generally well-rounded before the promotion, but some power-hungriness mixed with a little ego can easily get to somebody.There have been situations where users have said things about the staff or the site completely separate from the site itself--on a whole other site--to which the staff have reacted with punishments on this forum. I honestly don't think this makes sense. It's like going home and complaining to your wife about your boss, and your wife telling your boss and getting you fired. It's just wrong. That's really all there is to the staff. Otherwise, a great group of people, and I'm good friends with some.And the hiring method needs to be seriously reconsidered. From what I've seen, if a BZP member old enough or 'cool enough' as determined by current staff that attend a convention (primarily Brickfair) and manage to hang out and impress that group of current staff, they're automatically hired. This is completely unfair and biased behavior. And if I'm not seeing something, or if this is not correct, then please make it more apparent that promoted users really meet your criteria for becoming staff and are actually active prior to their promotions.Another huge item to address would be the downtime we had in the middle of last year. As far as I'm concerned, the new forum was installed entirely in a new directory. This would mean that the old forum at "bzpower.com/forum" could have been left open. The only thing that might have made this an issue was the fact that both sites were sharing a certain few tables in the database, but that was a one-time change in the forum software that could easily have been completed with no more than an hour or so of downtime.And I do respect that the staff have prior engagements and their own lives to deal with, but it absolutely should not take 6 months to install the new version of the forum software and get some things done. Sure, some difficulties were encountered along the way, but 6 months? Again, I mean no disrespect, but that just seems lazy.Before the downtime, I was very active on the site, and I think it was because of the downtime that I lost interest in BIONICLE and started to just abandon BZP once and for all. I thought it would be a great choice, but I started posting again and I'm currently at a steady level of interest and activity.If the proper improvements were made, this community would grow rapidly--those who come here for the first time will feel compelled to join because of the openness of the community, and those who have moved on will come back because of the changes that failed to be met during their time here.-SK

Edited January 6, 2012 by Shadow Kurahk

Discussion: The Future Of Bzpower

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