Discussion: The Future Of Bzpower

[dviddy]

It looks grim right now. A lot can be done to generally improve the member experience, because, as is very apparent, more users are leaving than there are visitors joining, which I don't think looks good to potential members. For example, the ability to link to the other sites that people are just dying to mention would be the first huuuuuuuge step towards 'fixing' the problem.I feel I can speak for a lot of the users that are considering abandoning this site because I'm one of them, and probably for the same reasons. I can't really make a valid statement on the way BZPower is talked about on other forums and online communities because I haven't seen much of it, but from what I have, it doesn't look good, and the same problems come up again and again.Though one big thing is the staff. I mean no disrespect, but a lot of the staff really don't rub off on a lot of us the right way. Sure, they know how to do their job, but what use does it have if over half the active members don't even like them? I'd think it a bit more logical and beneficial to hire somebody that would be liked by the majority of the population. That's not to say that we didn't have high hopes for some of these staff members, as they were generally well-rounded before the promotion, but some power-hungriness mixed with a little ego can easily get to somebody.There have been situations where users have said things about the staff or the site completely separate from the site itself--on a whole other site--to which the staff have reacted with punishments on this forum. I honestly don't think this makes sense. It's like going home and complaining to your wife about your boss, and your wife telling your boss and getting you fired. It's just wrong. That's really all there is to the staff. Otherwise, a great group of people, and I'm good friends with some.And the hiring method needs to be seriously reconsidered. From what I've seen, if a BZP member old enough or 'cool enough' as determined by current staff that attend a convention (primarily Brickfair) and manage to hang out and impress that group of current staff, they're automatically hired. This is completely unfair and biased behavior. And if I'm not seeing something, or if this is not correct, then please make it more apparent that promoted users really meet your criteria for becoming staff and are actually active prior to their promotions.Another huge item to address would be the downtime we had in the middle of last year. As far as I'm concerned, the new forum was installed entirely in a new directory. This would mean that the old forum at "bzpower.com/forum" could have been left open. The only thing that might have made this an issue was the fact that both sites were sharing a certain few tables in the database, but that was a one-time change in the forum software that could easily have been completed with no more than an hour or so of downtime.And I do respect that the staff have prior engagements and their own lives to deal with, but it absolutely should not take 6 months to install the new version of the forum software and get some things done. Sure, some difficulties were encountered along the way, but 6 months? Again, I mean no disrespect, but that just seems lazy.Before the downtime, I was very active on the site, and I think it was because of the downtime that I lost interest in BIONICLE and started to just abandon BZP once and for all. I thought it would be a great choice, but I started posting again and I'm currently at a steady level of interest and activity.If the proper improvements were made, this community would grow rapidly--those who come here for the first time will feel compelled to join because of the openness of the community, and those who have moved on will come back because of the changes that failed to be met during their time here.-SK

There have been a grand total of two or three "convention promotions". All were of members who were active, well-known around the site, and mostly still active now. And how is this behaviour unfair? What better way to vet a future staff member than the meet them in person?You never know if someone on-line is a good person outside of the persona they've built, in person, you can get to know somebody and see if they're a good mesh. I think the idea that this is "unfair" comes from those who haven't made it to a convention or are jealous that they weren't chosen for a promotion instead. We haven't done it every year, or even every convention. It seems like the absolute best way to pick new staff members.Also, per staff promotions, as someone who has had to pick out new staff members in my area to replace retiring or promoted staff, I can tell you that activity is the first thing I look for in the blogs. I want bloggies who are active in the community, active in the blogs, with good reputations, and a reputation for helpfulness and good behaviour. All three bloggies I have persoanlly overseen have been slam-dunks, two are still active as bloggies, and the other was transferred out of the blogs to work in the forums. And on top of that, there are protocols in place for promotions, and they all have to be approved by the administration.Also, I'm dying to know where the research is on "half the current active users don't like the staff" nonsense comes from. Sure, there is always a surge of "the staff are mean and lazy and they don't let me say the words I want to," and always members who complain that we're out to get them, but that has never been a majority on the site, and even when topics have come up about the staff here, the majority of the posts are usually "the rules could be more lenient, but the staff are great and do a good job".Also, you can absolutely be fired from a very, very, very vast number of jobs for things you say off-the-job, activities you do off-site, things like that. You only have to google it, and you can find story upon story of how teachers were fired for things they said in a blog, kids punished at school for activities they engaged in off-campus, businesspeople fired for speaking to the wrong person at the wrong time, etc. Is it the most fair thing in the world? No. Is it reality? Yes. Do we do that here? Sometimes. It depends on what takes place.Also, the downtime. We could not just leave the old forums open, because the data transfer required there to be no activity. Even the staff had no access for most of the time. And in order to archive it, removing all functionality and real member abilities, the forums had to be turned off. And in the middle of all of these transfers, getting the new stuff set up, checking and re-checking functionalities, etc, our host informed us they were dropping their hosting packages, and we would have to find a new host. You're absolutely right that it shouldn't have taken as long as it did, many of us on staff feel the exact same way. But the problem is that there were literally only three staff members who had the ability and know-how to do these things, and they are all adults with more-than-full-time jobs, and that a lot of these moves required the three of them to be in discussion at the same time with hosts, with the software companies, etc, things are not as easy as it seems from the outside. Could it have been faster? Absolutely. Would it have been fast? No. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that easily.

This topic seems to state that there used to be political discussion on BZPower. Could someone please link to a topic or something? In all the time I've been following BZPower (several years before I joined) I've never seen political discussion.

Yes, there used to be political discussions on BZPower. A very long time ago. No, I don't have links, because I don't feel like digging through ten years of information in CoT to find them. Those rules have been in place for a very long time, the topics I'm referencing are not recent. Not even a little bit.

So you tried something once, ten years ago, and due to a few offensive posts (mildly offensive, obviously, due to the word filter), and now you've put down your foot and said that every member on BZPower is, a decade after the original incident, completely and entirely incapable of engaging in any sort of (again, heavily filtered) political discussion whatsoever? BZPower isn't incapable of political discussion; a few members who have likely completely disappeared from the site said a few stupid things, so now you're banning all the rest of us from discussion.Your assumption is completely unfair to us members who haven't proved ourselves at all yet.

No, this rule has not been in place, it's not something we tried once, or anything like that. You're being purposefully obtuse, and it's a little insulting. There wasn't just one topic that existed for political discussion, topics sprang up constantly, and they were all, to a one, closed for flaming. They caused problem after problem after problem, and members still constantly prove in blog entries, topics that are made in opposition to the rules, that this is not an avenue they are able to pursue responsibly. Do I think some members on BZP could handle it? Yes, absolutely. Do I think a topic could last longer than a day without turning into a flamewar? Absolutely not. BZP history has proven this, over and over. It's also cute how you think that the filter stops things from being "overly offensive". The word filter exists to keep offensive words from being used, that parents and other members find objectionable. This filter does not stop members from being highly offensive, rude, or disrespectful. The discussion was not filtered, the objectionable language was. There is a huge difference.And I'm sorry if that is offensive to you, but that's the way it is. You can blame all the other members who have ruined it for you in the past.

[Shadow Kurahk]

It looks grim right now. A lot can be done to generally improve the member experience, because, as is very apparent, more users are leaving than there are visitors joining, which I don't think looks good to potential members. For example, the ability to link to the other sites that people are just dying to mention would be the first huuuuuuuge step towards 'fixing' the problem.I feel I can speak for a lot of the users that are considering abandoning this site because I'm one of them, and probably for the same reasons. I can't really make a valid statement on the way BZPower is talked about on other forums and online communities because I haven't seen much of it, but from what I have, it doesn't look good, and the same problems come up again and again.Though one big thing is the staff. I mean no disrespect, but a lot of the staff really don't rub off on a lot of us the right way. Sure, they know how to do their job, but what use does it have if over half the active members don't even like them? I'd think it a bit more logical and beneficial to hire somebody that would be liked by the majority of the population. That's not to say that we didn't have high hopes for some of these staff members, as they were generally well-rounded before the promotion, but some power-hungriness mixed with a little ego can easily get to somebody.There have been situations where users have said things about the staff or the site completely separate from the site itself--on a whole other site--to which the staff have reacted with punishments on this forum. I honestly don't think this makes sense. It's like going home and complaining to your wife about your boss, and your wife telling your boss and getting you fired. It's just wrong. That's really all there is to the staff. Otherwise, a great group of people, and I'm good friends with some.And the hiring method needs to be seriously reconsidered. From what I've seen, if a BZP member old enough or 'cool enough' as determined by current staff that attend a convention (primarily Brickfair) and manage to hang out and impress that group of current staff, they're automatically hired. This is completely unfair and biased behavior. And if I'm not seeing something, or if this is not correct, then please make it more apparent that promoted users really meet your criteria for becoming staff and are actually active prior to their promotions.Another huge item to address would be the downtime we had in the middle of last year. As far as I'm concerned, the new forum was installed entirely in a new directory. This would mean that the old forum at "bzpower.com/forum" could have been left open. The only thing that might have made this an issue was the fact that both sites were sharing a certain few tables in the database, but that was a one-time change in the forum software that could easily have been completed with no more than an hour or so of downtime.And I do respect that the staff have prior engagements and their own lives to deal with, but it absolutely should not take 6 months to install the new version of the forum software and get some things done. Sure, some difficulties were encountered along the way, but 6 months? Again, I mean no disrespect, but that just seems lazy.Before the downtime, I was very active on the site, and I think it was because of the downtime that I lost interest in BIONICLE and started to just abandon BZP once and for all. I thought it would be a great choice, but I started posting again and I'm currently at a steady level of interest and activity.If the proper improvements were made, this community would grow rapidly--those who come here for the first time will feel compelled to join because of the openness of the community, and those who have moved on will come back because of the changes that failed to be met during their time here.-SK

There have been a grand total of two or three "convention promotions". All were of members who were active, well-known around the site, and mostly still active now. And how is this behaviour unfair? What better way to vet a future staff member than the meet them in person?You never know if someone on-line is a good person outside of the persona they've built, in person, you can get to know somebody and see if they're a good mesh. I think the idea that this is "unfair" comes from those who haven't made it to a convention or are jealous that they weren't chosen for a promotion instead. We haven't done it every year, or even every convention. It seems like the absolute best way to pick new staff members.Also, per staff promotions, as someone who has had to pick out new staff members in my area to replace retiring or promoted staff, I can tell you that activity is the first thing I look for in the blogs. I want bloggies who are active in the community, active in the blogs, with good reputations, and a reputation for helpfulness and good behaviour. All three bloggies I have persoanlly overseen have been slam-dunks, two are still active as bloggies, and the other was transferred out of the blogs to work in the forums. And on top of that, there are protocols in place for promotions, and they all have to be approved by the administration.Also, I'm dying to know where the research is on "half the current active users don't like the staff" nonsense comes from. Sure, there is always a surge of "the staff are mean and lazy and they don't let me say the words I want to," and always members who complain that we're out to get them, but that has never been a majority on the site, and even when topics have come up about the staff here, the majority of the posts are usually "the rules could be more lenient, but the staff are great and do a good job".Also, you can absolutely be fired from a very, very, very vast number of jobs for things you say off-the-job, activities you do off-site, things like that. You only have to google it, and you can find story upon story of how teachers were fired for things they said in a blog, kids punished at school for activities they engaged in off-campus, businesspeople fired for speaking to the wrong person at the wrong time, etc. Is it the most fair thing in the world? No. Is it reality? Yes. Do we do that here? Sometimes. It depends on what takes place.Also, the downtime. We could not just leave the old forums open, because the data transfer required there to be no activity. Even the staff had no access for most of the time. And in order to archive it, removing all functionality and real member abilities, the forums had to be turned off. And in the middle of all of these transfers, getting the new stuff set up, checking and re-checking functionalities, etc, our host informed us they were dropping their hosting packages, and we would have to find a new host. You're absolutely right that it shouldn't have taken as long as it did, many of us on staff feel the exact same way. But the problem is that there were literally only three staff members who had the ability and know-how to do these things, and they are all adults with more-than-full-time jobs, and that a lot of these moves required the three of them to be in discussion at the same time with hosts, with the software companies, etc, things are not as easy as it seems from the outside. Could it have been faster? Absolutely. Would it have been fast? No. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that easily.

The only reason I brought up the convention promotions is because I genuinely noticed it, not because I want to be staff (and I'd rather not be a member of that group). Don't tell me I'm jealous of anything when I'm clearly not. This topic is for civilized discussion, not putting words into others' mouths.And sure it's handy to 'screen' potential staff members before hiring/promoting them, but the fact that the people that get to go to conventions get that opportunity while other, possibly more deserving considerations don't is the real issue. We should all be aware that the economy isn't in the best place right now, and that a lot of people that I bet you'd all love to meet and hire can't make it to the conventions because of that.And I recommend you don't take all the "the staff does a great job" kissup-y stuff too seriously. After all, that's all it is--kissup-y stuff. In the military, do you have to like your superior to talk about them respectfully? Nope. You're respectful because he is your superior. Do you have to like your moderators to talk about them respectfully where they work? Absolutely not.And it's not a matter of "the staff are mean and lazy," but the general vibe some users get from staff members. I'm going to be honest (and I don't expect to be penalized for it, because this is a mature discussion) and point out that right now, you are putting yourself on a pedestal, and it's very annoying. I notice this often, but I don't care to mention it because the staff treat this kind of statement like a crime against humanity. I don't like you as a staff member because of the way you treat other members.But I'm not the kind of person that says, straight out, that I don't like somebody. Instead I'll give some constructive criticism. In your case: I think that, oftentimes, you subconsciously make yourself seem better than others. Again, this could just be subconscious, and it is something that you can easily just keep track of a little more closely and probably stop doing it completely in a matter of a few weeks.And I'm sorry if I offended you, but I was offended by the way you talked to me. I just want that to be known. I'm not here to criticize staff members, but I will bring up the faults if I need to.Now about being fired from a job. The example I used was a husband telling a wife about a boss that he doesn't really like in the privacy of their own home and in the trust of their own marriage. The things that you pointed out were all public things--blog posts, vandalism of government/federal property, and so on. That's the difference, and so your point doesn't really make much sense. it's completely unfair that people get punished on here for something they do on another site, and that will never, under any circumstances, be appropriate.What data transfer? The users? That should take a week of downtime, max. And that's generous.-SK Edited January 6, 2012 by Shadow Kurahk

[dviddy]

Now about being fired from a job. The example I used was a husband telling a wife about a boss that he doesn't really like in the privacy of their own home and in the trust of their own marriage. The things that you pointed out were all public things--blog posts, vandalism of government/federal property, and so on. That's the difference, and so your point doesn't really make much sense. it's completely unfair that people get punished on here for something they do on another site, and that will never, under any circumstances, be appropriate.

Other sites, especially forums, are not akin to homes, they are akin to other public arenas. If you talk bad about your boss in public, whether he's there or not, and he hears about it, there can absolutely be consequences, including punishment. That's a risk you take when you talk like that. I've been on the receiving end of those kinds of punishment here, and while it doesn't always seem fair, that doesn't mean it's not. Just like it doesn't seem okay to be fired for something you say at a bar or elsewhere with your friends or family, but it can absolutely be fair. If it leads to a negative impact or impression of your workplace, being fired for it is absolutely fair.

And sure it's handy to 'screen' potential staff members before hiring/promoting them, but the fact that the people that get to go to conventions get that opportunity while other, possibly more deserving considerations don't is the real issue. We should all be aware that the economy isn't in the best place right now, and that a lot of people that I bet you'd all love to meet and hire can't make it to the conventions because of that.

And most of our promotions don't happen via conventions. Like I said, there have been three that I'm aware of. So this is a silly complaint. It's not a common practice.

And it's not a matter of "the staff are mean and lazy," but the general vibe some users get from staff members. I'm going to be honest (and I don't expect to be penalized for it, because this is a mature discussion) and point out that right now, you are putting yourself on a pedestal, and it's very annoying. I notice this often, but I don't care to mention it because the staff treat this kind of statement like a crime against humanity. I don't like you as a staff member because of the way you treat other members.But I'm not the kind of person that says, straight out, that I don't like somebody. Instead I'll give some constructive criticism. In your case: I think that, oftentimes, you subconsciously make yourself seem better than others. Again, this could just be subconscious, and it is something that you can easily just keep track of a little more closely and probably stop doing it completely in a matter of a few weeks.And I'm sorry if I offended you, but I was offended by the way you talked to me. I just want that to be known. I'm not here to criticize staff members, but I will bring up the faults if I need to.

So, defending the decisions and actions of the staff, when it seems they're being unfairly criticized, or at the very least, misunderstood or whatever, is being on a pedestal? I don't get it. You said a lot of things that were, at the very least, misinformed, and at the very most, mean-spirited. I was replying to explain why and what. Some of the things I even agreed with you on. I mean, I guess I'm bringing it on myself for being the most vocal staff member in regards to this portion of the conversation, and so I understand the frustrtations members have are going to be projected onto me, but still, that's a little silly. It can't be a real discussion if you're not willing to listen to what we have to say when we explain ourselves. There are very valid BZPower critiques, criticisms, and the like. Brickfair promotions, and parts of the downtime are not part of them. That's where things get frustrating.It's not a crime against humanity to dislike some staff members, or to think some of them rub you wrong, we get grumpy when members use that as an excuse to ignore our authority. I don't really care if you like me, or if I'm the most popular staff member on BZPower. I'm not interested in being the witty topic/entry closer, or in making the members laugh when I post in an official capacity like other staff members. It's cool that other staff members like that, it's just not me. I'm interested in getting in, closing the things against the rules, taking the appropriate action, and then going back to whatever I was doing. I'll try and explain things if it feels necessary, like it did with the pony issue a few weeks ago, but I'm not here to be loved and praised and I'm not interested in that. I'm just interested in enforcing the rules. And so I don't care much if you respect me as a person, but I do expect to be respected as the Blog Leader, and my words heeded when I'm acting officially. I'm also not here to offend others. I've been on BZP for almost a decade, and was not staff for a majority of that time. I know what it's like to have staff members you feel are out to get you, and to feel like the staff don't want to be human or to understand the members. I try to maintain a personal blog on BZP to show that "hey guys, I'm pretty normal", I try to comment on as many blogs as I can/am interested in, I try to make jokes when it seems appropriate, etc. But I will absolutely defend our positions when they are the right ones, and I will try and explain them when they seem confusing. Sometimes I don't think that members realize that we are also people, and we are also just as invested in BZPower as they are. I am aware that things get frustrating on both sides. It is frustrating as a member when it seems like the staff just do whatever they want, or they don't care about the members, or that they're not interested in actually participating in the community. It is frustrating when they seem to be just making rules on a whim, or when it seems they have personal vendettas. It is also just as frustrating as a staff member when we work really hard to do things, and members just complain that now we're doing it wrong, or that we're supressing members, or when we have to deal with the same member over and over because they keep breaking the rules/trolling/flaming/whatever and they just keep claiming it's personal and not a real violation, etc. Which is why like I said, I try to maintain a pretty normal community presence.

And I recommend you don't take all the "the staff does a great job" kissup-y stuff too seriously. After all, that's all it is--kissup-y stuff. In the military, do you have to like your superior to talk about them respectfully? Nope. You're respectful because he is your superior. Do you have to like your moderators to talk about them respectfully where they work? Absolutely not.

I am absolutely certain that a good portion of that talk is exactly that, kids kissing up hoping to be staff someday, or to at the very least just be positive and express gratitude in an effort to be well-liked. But it's just as ridiculous, if not moreso, for you to throw it all out as just the members patronising us as it is for me to say that the majority of the members like us as a group well enough. There are many vocal members who complain about the staff often. In my experience, and this is having been on both sides of this argument, as a member who hated the staff members and thought them ridiculous, and as a staff member dealing with the same type of member (and I'm not saying this is you), is that they are usually those who keep getting in trouble or are frustrated they can't link to everything they want or use all the language they want, etc. Not everyone is going to enjoy the limitations set in place here, we understand that. That's fine. There are millions of other sites out there.

What data transfer? The users? That should take a week of downtime, max. And that's generous.

It took more than that time for the host change to happen. First you have to find a new host. Then you have to compile all your forum's date, member info, site structure, CSS tables, images, the blogs were imported wholesale, you have to transfer it to the new host, you have to install it on the new host, you have to make sure it all runs safely on the new host, you have to make sure it all transferred properly, you have to re-do aspects of it, you have to transfer software, re-install custom hacks (and BZP has dozens), fix software issues, etc. And with only an average of three hours a night for the admins to do those things, and most of those things needing more than one of them to watch over it, etc, this understandably took a very long time. Weeks. And again, a big part of that was the finding a new host. That wasn't easy. And we had stuff done already for the forum migration that we had to abandon and re-do because we hadn't anticipated our host just deciding, out of the blue, to discontinue their hosting services. It was just as frustrating for us as it was for you. I promise. The site should have been down for half as long as it was, I agree. We tried to push things along as best as possible, but very few of us have the technical qualifications to help do the things that the administrators know how to do. And even then, some of those things only Bink knows how to do, and his schedule as a LEGO employee is not very open, unfortunately.From there, I do hope you guys realize that we do hear a lot of your complaints, and we do have several plans in the works for many of those complaints. We changed the signature guidelines, we have re-structured and may re-structure more of the forums, we updated the rankings, we're working on figuring out skins (and if you have experience with skinning this new version of IPB, please PM Black Six), we're working on the filter (which is actually a lot harder than it sounds), we're working on the linking policies (including a list that we intend to publish to allow you to know which sites are allowed to link to, since that is very fuzzy, even for the staff). Unfortunately, these things just take time.

[Shadow Kurahk]

So that's my point. If you don't try to be that person, then try harder. What would you normally do in a situation like this?The 'pedestal' crud was really in reference to the tone I get from you most of the time. I have to be honest, I hear this from other members to. You have something of a superiority complex--I'm not sure how you want to address that, but like I suggested in my earlier post, it's something you could deal with in a matter of weeks. Maybe it's what makes you you, but I'm certainly not a fan of it.I'm absolutely not here to make people look like fools and I'm not here to start a heated debate with a staff member, because, even though it may not seem like it, I do respect you.And thank you for keeping a cool head, even after I outright insulted you. That was somewhat uncalled for, and I appreciate the way you reacted. This is the kind of behavior I'd like to see from the staff more often.And what we think of you is no excuse to ignore your authority, but I don't think that's really the case--again it's a matter of tolerating behavior of your authorities that may be less than appropriate in certain situations.And if there was a lack of helpers with programming knowledge, would it be beneficial for BZP to form a programming team? I'd more than gladly volunteer my own time and programming expertise to ensure things would get done faster. I'm sure there are a few other users that may be interested as well.And didn't know about the host transfer--that can take some times, especially with the necessities to properly host this huge forum. Either way, it was the responsibility of the administrators and the people in charge, really, to organize ways for knowledgeable users to get involved and speed up the process. Whatever. What's done is done and the forum's back up and running, so I can't complain, but a team that would assist in installing those hacks and helping with future software updates would totally help, and you can sign me up if that works out.-SK

Edited January 6, 2012 by Shadow Kurahk

[dviddy]

And didn't know about the host transfer--that can take some times, especially with the necessities to properly host this huge forum. Either way, it was the responsibility of the administrators and the people in charge, really, to organize ways for knowledgeable users to get involved and speed up the process. Whatever. What's done is done and the forum's back up and running, so I can't complain, but a team that would assist in installing those hacks and helping with future software updates would totally help, and you can sign me up if that works out.

Yeah, we didn't know about the host transfer until we were told it would have to happen either. And unfortunately, even though we were switching to a new board entirely, to free up all that space, we still had to host the archive, and while it is a lot smaller since it is read-only now, that still takes time. A group that does software would not be a bad idea, I think the administration was honestly a little surprised at how many things we actually had to do, as things kept coming up, which led to new things, and the hosting problem came out of nowhere. We were, to but it blankly, a little blindsided by that.And like I said, trust me, most of the staff wishes the board hadn't been offline as long either. It was really frustrating, and honestly, all the free time I suddenly had online was weird.

[Gatanui]

No, this rule has not been in place, it's not something we tried once, or anything like that. You're being purposefully obtuse, and it's a little insulting. There wasn't just one topic that existed for political discussion, topics sprang up constantly, and they were all, to a one, closed for flaming. They caused problem after problem after problem, and members still constantly prove in blog entries, topics that are made in opposition to the rules, that this is not an avenue they are able to pursue responsibly. Do I think some members on BZP could handle it? Yes, absolutely. Do I think a topic could last longer than a day without turning into a flamewar? Absolutely not. BZP history has proven this, over and over. It's also cute how you think that the filter stops things from being "overly offensive". The word filter exists to keep offensive words from being used, that parents and other members find objectionable. This filter does not stop members from being highly offensive, rude, or disrespectful. The discussion was not filtered, the objectionable language was. There is a huge difference.And I'm sorry if that is offensive to you, but that's the way it is. You can blame all the other members who have ruined it for you in the past.

You will probably think I am being slightly stubborn with the politics topic, but the fact that political discussion has not worked sometime in the past does not mean it could not work in the present. Democratic systems have not worked in the past either. If people had sticked to the thought that what was not been possible in the past is not possible in the present either, quite likely we would not be able to express our thoughts freely nowadays and democracy would not exist. In fact, progress would not exist if humanity shared this attitude. Did the French revolution in 1789 last long? No. Is democracy nowadays possible? Very much so. Why shouldn't political discussion be possible under different conditions? I have not been around at the time of the great political flame wars or at least did not take any notice, but IF we allowed political discussion, I think we all agree that we would have a seperate COT-subforum, that religious discussion would not be included and that punishment would be particularly harsh in this forum to avoid flame wars. None of these aspects were granted in the past, so the "It didn't work in the past, it's not gonna work now." thought is not a finish-off argument if you know what I mean, although it gives reasons to be sceptic about further attempts.Again, sorry if I seem too stubborn, but I find it awful that the possibility of political discussion is not at least considered for the future and thrown into the bin from the start. Other issues may have more priority because they may increase the traffic on BZPower again, but that is no reason to categorically deny political discussion.~Gata. Edited January 7, 2012 by Gatanui

[Legolover-361]

I think the reasons people want to be able to discuss political issues on BZPower rather than other sites are:1. BZPower has a great community. Okay, maybe not every single member is the best, but a lot of users here have at least several friends.2. BZPower is something of a safe haven. It's strict, but at least no one here can get away with flaming someone else, cursing, etc. I know if I wanted to discuss a touchy subject, I'd rather do it on a relatively tame site than a worse one with less moderation.I'm not arguing the point anymore; the above is just why I think people still support the idea.

[Dralcax]

No, this rule has not been in place, it's not something we tried once, or anything like that. You're being purposefully obtuse, and it's a little insulting. There wasn't just one topic that existed for political discussion, topics sprang up constantly, and they were all, to a one, closed for flaming. They caused problem after problem after problem, and members still constantly prove in blog entries, topics that are made in opposition to the rules, that this is not an avenue they are able to pursue responsibly. Do I think some members on BZP could handle it? Yes, absolutely. Do I think a topic could last longer than a day without turning into a flamewar? Absolutely not. BZP history has proven this, over and over. It's also cute how you think that the filter stops things from being "overly offensive". The word filter exists to keep offensive words from being used, that parents and other members find objectionable. This filter does not stop members from being highly offensive, rude, or disrespectful. The discussion was not filtered, the objectionable language was. There is a huge difference.And I'm sorry if that is offensive to you, but that's the way it is. You can blame all the other members who have ruined it for you in the past.

I would like to point out that, even if a post is filtered, you still interpret "####" as a swear word, and you still know that it is an insult to whoever the post was directed towards. Everyone knows "cool dude", "friend","it is totally fair and just" and so on are just code for filtered words. And it is not unknown what they mean. Therefore, I think only swear words can be justified as filtered, because if someone calls you a cool dude, you know what they really meant, and you interpret it as an insult anyways.

So that's my point. If you don't try to be that person, then try harder. What would you normally do in a situation like this?The 'pedestal' crud was really in reference to the tone I get from you most of the time. I have to be honest, I hear this from other members to. You have something of a superiority complex--I'm not sure how you want to address that, but like I suggested in my earlier post, it's something you could deal with in a matter of weeks. Maybe it's what makes you you, but I'm certainly not a fan of it.I'm absolutely not here to make people look like fools and I'm not here to start a heated debate with a staff member, because, even though it may not seem like it, I do respect you.And thank you for keeping a cool head, even after I outright insulted you. That was somewhat uncalled for, and I appreciate the way you reacted. This is the kind of behavior I'd like to see from the staff more often.And what we think of you is no excuse to ignore your authority, but I don't think that's really the case--again it's a matter of tolerating behavior of your authorities that may be less than appropriate in certain situations.And if there was a lack of helpers with programming knowledge, would it be beneficial for BZP to form a programming team? I'd more than gladly volunteer my own time and programming expertise to ensure things would get done faster. I'm sure there are a few other users that may be interested as well.And didn't know about the host transfer--that can take some times, especially with the necessities to properly host this huge forum. Either way, it was the responsibility of the administrators and the people in charge, really, to organize ways for knowledgeable users to get involved and speed up the process. Whatever. What's done is done and the forum's back up and running, so I can't complain, but a team that would assist in installing those hacks and helping with future software updates would totally help, and you can sign me up if that works out.-SK

Yes, but if they let one stranger fumble around with the code behind it all, they have to let more. And it would be like leaving all the money in a bank in an unguarded box outside, trusting people not to steal. We may be able to trust you, but a less honest or less skilled person may join the team and damage the website.

[Shadow Kurahk]

Uh...so you hire people you trust? Forum leaders can delete topics in any forum, and any one of them could crack at any moment. You just roll with it and if something happens you deal with it. This happens all the time.-SK

Edited January 7, 2012 by Shadow Kurahk

[Tilius]

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Edited April 26, 2021 by Tilius

[Alex Humva]

Tilius~While I'm all for eliminating prejudice and such, people's opinions of what amounts as prejudice and what doesn't vastly vary. For instance, my opinions of prejudice and your opinions of prejudice probably vary wildly. So 'eliminating' prejudice is no where as simple as you make it out to be, and would likely create more arguing over what amounts to it and what doesn't. The simplest of things can set me off, whereas another person wouldn't care as much, and they would not be wrong for doing it. With prejudice there is black, white, and a very large gray area inbetween. Some things shouldn't be allowed, certainly, but the moment you step into the gray area hard questions come up that have no true answers.As for the topic's question, what do I think of the future of BZP? I foresee the membership dropping off, COT growing even more, and in general a slowing of things. The site will definitely have to do some drastic changes to stay relevant, but honestly I can't see it doing much with the way the rules are currently. For instance, the word filter. Now, yes, I know, the staff are working on that. But, sorry guys, you've been saying that since this time last year. The promise of change is simply not going cut it; only the actual thing will do it. Some words can be abused, but that's no reason to ban it. For instance, bloody is often used as a curse yet BZP will not block it, while attempting to call someone the i word will get your comment replaced with cool dude.So, how to change BZP? Get around to fulfilling promises made over a year ago. The staff may be busy people, but it would of been relativity simple compared to a host switch. You guys could of done it over the down time and it'd of taken less than ten minutes of your life. Not meant to be offensive; simply that there was a perfect opportunity to finally change these things and it was passed up.

[Tilius]

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Edited April 26, 2021 by Tilius

[dviddy]

So, how to change BZP? Get around to fulfilling promises made over a year ago. The staff may be busy people, but it would of been relativity simple compared to a host switch. You guys could of done it over the down time and it'd of taken less than ten minutes of your life. Not meant to be offensive; simply that there was a perfect opportunity to finally change these things and it was passed up.

The word filter is going to take way, way, way longer than ten minutes. It's not anywhere near as easy as you think it is.

[Sumiki]

I think the point about the word filter that Humva was trying to say was that the talk of word filter updating has been going on for a long time. I didn't interpret it as a literal "ten minutes", though it may have been meant as such.Still, I can kind of sympathize ... I can't say I have any qualms about the filter, but how hard, exactly, is updating it? I've heard talk of updating it for well over a year, as Humva has. From (extremely rudimentary) knowledge of PHP, word filters are, in their most basic form, essentially a few lines of code. I'm assuming BZP's is more complex?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Sumiki

[Shadow Kurahk]

Word filters are just regexes. Nothing to it.The complexity comes in when you want to detect any groups of letters within certain distance to each other and block that out. People try to use BBCode between curse words to get past word filters, so that may be the issue.-SK

Edited January 7, 2012 by Shadow Kurahk

[dviddy]

The problem with the word filter isn't the actual changing of the words in the AdminCP, it's in deciding what to filter, how to filter, and what to do with the thousands of things on the filter right now. As you might imagine, the members of the staff and even the administration do not all agree on the answers to those questions. The conversation and work stalled out on the filter awhile back because of the board upgrade and transfer, and the current linking policies we're discussing right now, amongst a few other discussions. One of our problems is that we have so many things we're working on, that focus tends to shift between them all. But we're trying to stay more focused on one area at a time specifically.

Edited January 7, 2012 by DeeVee

[Shadow Kurahk]

It would help if we got an official to-do list.-SK

[dviddy]

To be completely honest, I don't see why members need an official to-do list. We have one, and we're trying our best to make our way through it, and there are several things on it that are behind-the-scenes things that we've been powering through that nobody has really noticed, and some of these things that are on the list but are such low priority that I think it would just get some of your hopes up.

[Aanchir]

Personally, political discussion is something I wouldn't care to see on BZPower. Many of the other sites I participate on do not have rules against political discussion, but at the same time people are mature enough to avoid it most of the time. Those who do bring up politics often end up sounding like they're trying to "preach" to the other members. As it is, BZPower has a younger userbase than sites like these, and I don't know if we could count on members here not to get into flame wars or start judging each other based on their political affiliations and beliefs. If you allow political discussion, there's that inherent risk that people won't be mature about it, especially on the internet where anonymity can make people careless about what they say.

[Alex Humva]

With prejudice there is black, white, and a very large gray area inbetween. Some things shouldn't be allowed, certainly, but the moment you step into the gray area hard questions come up that have no true answers.

But there isn't a grey area. Prejudice is a preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience. So it's not really subjective - something's either based on fact, or isn't....- Tilius

If that were so then there wouldn't be as much of a debate about it. Some simple things -calling something a 'manly' sport- could be conceived as prejudice, because it implies and assigns strength and such to men, and thus assumes women don't have those qualities. It's been a while since I heard 'womanly' sport, probably because people realized that it was being used as an insult, but I still constantly here mentions of the manliness of something. To me, that is prejudice. To other people it's a simple fact of life and they mean no offense by it, which is why I don't explode everytime someone goes and says it.So, if BZP were to allow political discussions but eliminate prejudice from it, then where would you draw the line? Nazis are easy to take care of; but do you give the guy who talks about how manly football is a warning? The line begins to blur when you get into stuff like that.DeeVee~Ah, so it's not actually the changing, it's the decision making to make the changes. Makes sense.

[Gatanui]

With prejudice there is black, white, and a very large gray area inbetween. Some things shouldn't be allowed, certainly, but the moment you step into the gray area hard questions come up that have no true answers.

But there isn't a grey area. Prejudice is a preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience. So it's not really subjective - something's either based on fact, or isn't....- Tilius

If that were so then there wouldn't be as much of a debate about it. Some simple things -calling something a 'manly' sport- could be conceived as prejudice, because it implies and assigns strength and such to men, and thus assumes women don't have those qualities. It's been a while since I heard 'womanly' sport, probably because people realized that it was being used as an insult, but I still constantly here mentions of the manliness of something. To me, that is prejudice. To other people it's a simple fact of life and they mean no offense by it, which is why I don't explode everytime someone goes and says it.So, if BZP were to allow political discussions but eliminate prejudice from it, then where would you draw the line? Nazis are easy to take care of; but do you give the guy who talks about how manly football is a warning? The line begins to blur when you get into stuff like that.DeeVee~Ah, so it's not actually the changing, it's the decision making to make the changes. Makes sense.

I believe it is generally not hard to identify whether a person has extremistic points of view. If someone pretended dancing was a woman sport, for example, BZPower would not intervene but let other members argue against this point of view. We must remember, after all, that BZPower is not a moral or educative instance and thus could not attempt to indoctrinate their members or give preference to certain points of view (extremist beliefs excluded), but merely impulse sensible debating. If a member stated, however, that women's only purpose is to bear and bring up children, BZPower's staff would naturally intervene, as this would clearly be an extremist statement close to extremist attitudes or ideologies like sexism and nazism.And I wouldn't mind moderating a forum for political discussion. I do realize it wouldn't be an easy task, but I would do it; even if, in the end, it turns out that BZPower is indeed incapable of discussing political topics.~Gata. Edited January 7, 2012 by Gatanui

[Waffles]

Yes, but do other staffies want to do it? And do members want to be promoted to do it?

[Klak]

I believe Black Six has already stated that political discussion is a no-no. And here's the thing, those who are in favor of it know that they are mature enough to handle the discussion fairly. However, I don't think we can go out on a limb and say every single one of the thousands of members on this site is equally mature. Think about it. People have flamed each other to death on countless topics over a toy line. (HF vs. Bionicle, Bring Back Bionicle, ZOMGHOWDARULIEKBIONICL, etc.)It's sad, but true. Also, these forums I think serve as an escape from the daily life."A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men."-Roald Dahl

Edited January 7, 2012 by MakutaKlak

[Duarack5]

It seems as though many of this site's members consider Bionicle a "sinking ship" or "dead and over". Does the fact that the sets have stopped coming or that the story has not been updated in a while mean that 1) We might as well place our interest in something else, or 2) that we should abandon BZP or at least take the Bionicle parts out of it?Making this site into more of a Lego forum doesn't sound all that bad to me. The site would get more members with their own forum spaces to chat, thus extending the site's life and popularity. The Bionicle portion of the site would stay, so we'd still have our own space to post. That won't happen, however, if the fans of Bionicle go "the story is over! The sets are gone! Abandon ship, we can't possibly stay interested in a series that's 'dead'!" We can't forget how much fun this site had been, and how great Bionicle was and is. Why abandon all that at the first sign of trouble? BZP can still survive, and it's obviously taking steps to do so. Even if by some chance it doesn't, we'll still have a decade's worth of story and memories to keep with us. Regardless of BZP's or Bionicle's current popularity, that should not be forgotten.

[Klak]

See, that's why religious or political discussion would never work: By separating them, you automatically lean toward one side, and set one person's idea of "fanatic" as the standard all posts have to fall beneath.-TLhikan

You got it.

[Waffles]

Besides, if the staff do actually do that, they are making it very clear that they themselves have bias for or against something, when they should be a neutral force guiding the site.

Promoting tolerance doesn't seem like a bad bias to have.Perhaps it's technically a bias, but it seems more like common sense.

[Tilius]

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Edited April 26, 2021 by Tilius

[Toa of Nerds]

I see some more positive changes with the front page.1) More spotlights on member projects.2) An open invitation to ask questions on the Powercast.It's this kind of stuff that will keep BZPower up and running. Good job staff, and keep it up!As for political discussion, I would enjoy it and post very frequently in that forum. I know I could handle myself well without getting into a flame-war and I also know that there are many members out there like myself. However...I do see the reason for not allowing it. There could be a few members out there who have really tied themselves emotionally to a politcal idea and would just erupt the whole subforum into flames when that idea is brought into question. Having said that, I would be for it, though I think the staff should focus their time on much more pressing issues right now.-don't touch my pocket protector

[Sumiki]

Besides, if the staff do actually do that, they are making it very clear that they themselves have bias for or against something, when they should be a neutral force guiding the site.

Promoting tolerance doesn't seem like a bad bias to have.Perhaps it's technically a bias, but it seems more like common sense.

True, but not everyone agrees on social issues. Can't go too much farther on that without diving into politics and such, but the point was that the good it may serve (promoting tolerance) is outweighed by potential detracting factors.

[Black Six]

Pretty sure I said a couple pages ago that political discussion is off the table. I'm not sure why people are still discussing it, but it needs to stop.

[Waffles]

Wait, political discussion is a no-no, and so is discussion of possible political discussion.This naturally leads me to pose the question: can one discuss discussion of possible discussion of possible political discussion?And Sumiki, respecting other's opinions and religion is extremely important, but it's simply too easy for one to argument that it's part of their beliefs and go on spreading hate. There is such a thing as "wrongness" in beliefs.Which is another reason why we shouldn't have political discussion.In regards to posting member MOCs and stories on the front page, this has been boosted up recently, so obviosuly the suggestions posed here are being implemented.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Waffles

[Hahli Husky]

I don't know about this site dying just because the Bionicle franchise has ended and we haven't really moved away from talking about the storyline and sets. I've been around many active, yet old, forums where people discuss a story that ended a long time ago, whether or not it was extraordinarily popular. Even if there aren't thousands of active members, or even hundreds, people may still like a place to talk about an old franchise that they remember fondly or have newly stumbled upon. If this site branches out to cover more topics, I don't mind. But I hope there will continue to be a place where Bionicle can be discussed.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

What's going on in this topic right now rather reminds me of any discussion of any proposed budget - people in one department are convinced they're the most important, and want more of the site allocated to them, while another department feels compelled to remind them that the department demanding 80% of the budget hasn't seen much profit lately, and yet another department is convinced that a healthy chunk of the funds should go to hiring a crew to deal with their filing cabinets, because, seriously, last year's tax reports are mixed up with ham sandwiches for some reason.The three "departments" mentioned in this maybe-not-so-good analogy are, of course, those who want BIONICLE to be the big thing for BZPower until either we or the site die of old age, those who want the site expanded to general construction sets because BIONICLE hasn't been offering up much to discuss lately, and those who primarily occupy sub-forums like Lego General Discussion and COT, and would like to see those forums subdivided because they're eight or nine different kinds of messy.All three sides have what are, to them, very compelling arguments, but I feel that the BIONICLE "loyalists" are rooting their position more in nostalgia than reason - I've even seen a couple of posts on here from people who appear to be under the impression that somebody is advocating for the total removal of BIONICLE (I've gotta say, I hate capitalizing the whole word.) from the site. Nobody wants that, and it's not going to happen - it's just that there is a finite amount of things to discuss about a toy line that's already ended. BBC and Art are, I think, going to remain the most active of the Bionicle-dedicated sub-forums, while S&T and Sets are likely to die down as people run out of questions to ask, polls to make, and opinions to voice.Therefore, since a pure Bionicle-focus is entirely untenable, the scope needs to be widened a bit. Making the front page more general in design and adding places for people to discuss other themes, rather than dividing it between "Bionicle" and "Other Lego Things", is an obvious step. An equivalent of BBC, but for System-based things, is, I think, another.Quite apart from the people who are here as Bionicle-fans or Lego-fans, though, are the people who are here because of the community - some of the friends I have on here in the COT Forum are the only reason I came back when I saw that the down-time was over. I spend most - okay, no, all - of my time in either COT or Blogs, and while the blogs are nice, tidy, and user-friendly, COT could use a major overhaul. You've got people who are there for the RPGs, people who are there to discuss music or mythology or what-not, and people who are there to write stories - along, I'm sure, with a few other people who don't fit any of those categories but exist and contribute nonetheless. Outside of COT, you've got quite a lot of people who are convinced that COT is nothing but canned mystery-meat and Norse cave-dwelling mythical giants. Splitting COT into sub-forums would not only encourage the use of those sub-forums and therefore bring more overall activity, but might do something to go against the idea that COT is the intellectual wasteland many outside of COT see it as.Well, that's just my two cents spread incoherently over five coins. We've got a lot of different people pulling in a lot of different directions, so it will be interesting to see which suggestions are and aren't factored into any changes that might be made. Good day (or night) to you all, and best of luck in whatever your plans are for your future involvement in this site.Best regards,The Rover

[Tilius]

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Edited April 26, 2021 by Tilius

[Sumiki]

If someone's core beliefs is intense hatred, that would most likely manifest itself in insults towards other members, the breaking of rules, and general vindictiveness until that person is banned.Whether you're being sarcastic or not, equating not banning someone at the first sign of intolerance with breeding murderers is an absolute exaggeration. I don't think BZP could even serve as a method to convince those people of the wrongness in their views.

[dviddy]

Pretty sure I said a couple pages ago that political discussion is off the table. I'm not sure why people are still discussing it, but it needs to stop.

It's not really political discussion. It's discussing tolerance, which, as another poster said, is more on the side of common sense than politics. I think if we were discussing whether it's alright to be racist or not, you wouldn't even consider it a political subject, and you'd likely punish those with racist views - so why is the same not applied here? Labelling this discussion political basically gives the intolerant people room to continue believing what they bellieve, because they'll see themselves as simply the 'other side of the coin' rather than being fundamentally wrong in their treatment of other people. This is EXACTLY what I was on about. You're basically allowing people to keep their prejudices, because a lot of people thinking something apparently means it's an okay thing to think.I mean, if a member started insulting another member, you'd ban/suspend them, but apparently when one of their core beliefs is the intense hatred of people who are different, you're fine and dandy with it, despite it being far worse. Labelling this discussion political and moving it along is like going into a topic where a guy is insulting someone else, and simply saying 'LET'S CHANGE SUBJECT' instead of punishing the guy insulting the other guy.I know BZP isn't really here to teach, but surely common decency should be pretty much top priority? It's what's 'taught' by banning people who are nasty to other members, so why not follow that through to those people who'd be up for victimising people of a certain group - that's something which could easily grow in later life and lead to some pretty bad consequences for the groups said person hates. You're basically ignoring the possible serious outcomes of how a forum is managed, and potentially breeding murderers. I'M NOT BEING DRAMATIC AT ALL. But you get the point.- Tilius

You're misunderstanding Andrew's post. He's not saying that you're currently having a political conversation, he's saying the discussions about having political discussions should stop, since it's not going to ever happen, and so you're wasting your time.

An equivalent of BBC, but for System-based things, is, I think, another.

We have one of those.

[Tilius]

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Edited April 26, 2021 by Tilius

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

An equivalent of BBC, but for System-based things, is, I think, another.

We have one of those.

And this is what I get for rarely coming out of my cave.Well, good to know one thing I suggested happened, albeit retroactively. What do you think of the idea of sub-dividing COT to organize it a little better?

[dviddy]

You're misunderstanding Andrew's post. He's not saying that you're currently having a political conversation, he's saying the discussions about having political discussions should stop, since it's not going to ever happen, and so you're wasting your time.

And you're misunderstanding mine. I'm not asking for political discussion to be allowed. I'm asking for the staff to deal with it differently when certain areas of discussion do arise.- Tilius

When a member is intolerant of another member, whether it be for sexual orientation, religious belief, etc, on BZPower, BZP has made our official stance that we will not allow that type of behaviour. We have an official "we tolerate and respect each other" policy. Remember that the whole blow-up over the kissing banners is that we allowed them.

[Tilius]

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Edited April 26, 2021 by Tilius