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Why isn't the mask of time as powerful as the other two great mask


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This forum is so dead, but I can't let go of it for some reason. So here, for those of you who still frequent what's left of BZPower, have a little humor courtesy of the r/bionicle discord. (And hey, come join us if you want to talk about Bionicle regularly instead of over an average of five posts a day.)

 

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I have slept for so long. My dreams have been dark ones. But now I am awakened. Now the scattered elements of my being are rejoined. Now I am whole. And the Darkness can not stand before me.

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I fail to see why so many insist on perpetuating the idea that this forum is dead.

 

:kakama:

Compared to 10 years ago, it’s pretty dead. However, since it’s basically the original BIO fan network, I insist on keeping it alive as best I can.

 

Remember guys: as fans, it’s up to us to keep BZP alive.

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I would argue that it's more powerful. MU inhabitants have weilded the powers of the other two masks successfully. No MU inhabitant has successfully used the mask of time without almost accidentally destroying the world (tahu was the most successful, but even that, he couldn't control it). As far as it's uses, we've definitely seen fewer of those, but that again may be because it's so much more powerful. We haven't seen what the mask of time can REALLY do because no one's ever used it properly. Lastly, as far as the "it was never meant to exist" argument, do the three virtues mean nothing to you? I believe vakama was destined to make it, and that it was a failsafe built into the mata nui robot, like how the Toa inika were made.

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I would argue that it's more powerful. MU inhabitants have weilded the powers of the other two masks successfully. No MU inhabitant has successfully used the mask of time without almost accidentally destroying the world (tahu was the most successful, but even that, he couldn't control it).

The Ignika ate the two people that wore it.  :P

 

But yes, I'd agree that they did have control over it. Or, Matoro did, at least. Teleporting his friends to safety and making them amphibious before becoming Universe juice.

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The Ignika ate the two people that wore it. :P

 

But yes, I'd agree that they did have control over it. Or, Matoro did, at least. Teleporting his friends to safety and making them amphibious before becoming Universe juice.

Very true. But it might just be the law of equivalent exchange. In both instances, the user was bringing life to literally the entire universe. Maybe to give life the mask needs to siphon life, but all it's other powers could have been used cost free (both mata nui and the embodiment of the ignika had not trouble using certain powers). But even the ignika when it tried to awaken mata nui lost its body and "life" to do. So I wouldn't call it the price of using the mask in general, just the price to use one specific power of the mask.

 

Edit: plus it seemed to be implied that the mask of life could be destroyed (since it developed cracks without anything bad happening. The vahi would destroy the universe if destroyed. If one has enough power to take the universe with it if it breaks, and the other doesn't, I think that is some measure of power levels.

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The Ignika ate the two people that wore it. :P

 

But yes, I'd agree that they did have control over it. Or, Matoro did, at least. Teleporting his friends to safety and making them amphibious before becoming Universe juice.

Very true. But it might just be the law of equivalent exchange. In both instances, the user was bringing life to literally the entire universe. Maybe to give life the mask needs to siphon life, but all it's other powers could have been used cost free (both mata nui and the embodiment of the ignika had not trouble using certain powers). But even the ignika when it tried to awaken mata nui lost its body and "life" to do. So I wouldn't call it the price of using the mask in general, just the price to use one specific power of the mask.

 

Edit: plus it seemed to be implied that the mask of life could be destroyed (since it developed cracks without anything bad happening. The vahi would destroy the universe if destroyed. If one has enough power to take the universe with it if it breaks, and the other doesn't, I think that is some measure of power levels.

 

If the Ignika were destroyed, all life in the MU would cease to exist. Or all inanimate objects would come to life.

 

Or both. That's part of the reason Teridax ejected it from the universe. He knew about the Ignika's countdown and the damage to it. In either case, he'd probably die.

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Speaking of Teridax, a major part of his Metru Nui takeover was to use the Vahi to make the 1000 years that was needed to kill Mata Nui happen quickly. Do you think he could have actually controlled the Vahi enough to do this? Tahu was hardly able to control it for more than about half a minute? Vakama messed up the instant he tried (froze himself in time as well as his target) so would Teridax be strong enough to make time flow faster for 1000 years?

 

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Maybe he had a better understanding of how the mask was supposed to work, and thought that with a bit of practice who could control it's power. Remember that Teridax was arrogant and in possession of immense knowledge of the rules of the Matoran Universe, both of which are caused by him being one of the Makuta. Teridax probably just assumed he could use it without much difficulty or danger.

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If the Ignika were destroyed, all life in the MU would cease to exist. Or all inanimate objects would come to life.

Or both. That's part of the reason Teridax ejected it from the universe. He knew about the Ignika's countdown and the damage to it. In either case, he'd probably die.

I thought that too,but rereading it for the chronical, I'm not so sure. The vahi looked like it would destroy everything if destroyed, because the smallest crack made its power run wild. The ignika on the other hand did get a ton of cracks in mahri nui, but no power leaked from it (other than the usual curse). I think it would've been fine for it to be destroyed. Where I think everyone was panicking about rescuing it, was that if it was destroyed, then they couldn't use it to save mata nui (and so the universe would die). So I think the universe would indirectly die from it being destroyed, as compared to the direct death of the universe from the vahi. I think he removed the mask of life from the universe because it had the power to blow up the universe when if the MU was unbalanced. Why he didn't destroy it could have just been arrogance. He thought he was unstoppable and it didn't matter if it (or mata nui) lived (otherwise why not download if to something that could be destroyed). I could totally be wrong though, but that was my interpretation. Incidentally, if I am wrong, and all legendary masks unleash power on destruction, what would the mask of Creation do? Destroy all creativity in the universe? No inventions, no art, no dreams? It sounds weird, but that would kind of reset the MU to being the mindless drones the great beings intended them to before velika intervened wouldn't it?.

 

Speaking of Teridax, a major part of his Metru Nui takeover was to use the Vahi to make the 1000 years that was needed to kill Mata Nui happen quickly. Do you think he could have actually controlled the Vahi enough to do this? Tahu was hardly able to control it for more than about half a minute? Vakama messed up the instant he tried (froze himself in time as well as his target) so would Teridax be strong enough to make time flow faster for 1000 years?

Tough to say. He is definitely might stronger than any Toa, so I feel like he could control it better than tahu did. But I still feel like (in my opinion), being the most powerful mask in existence, he wouldn't be able to control it perfectly. There would be some consequences. Maybe he was arrogant, and thought he could handle it, or maybe he didn't care about consequences. I mean technically, all he is smoke in a suit of armor. If he was aged 1000 years with the rest world, would it even matter for him?

 

Maybe he had a better understanding of how the mask was supposed to work, and thought that with a bit of practice who could control it's power. Remember that Teridax was arrogant and in possession of immense knowledge of the rules of the Matoran Universe, both of which are caused by him being one of the Makuta. Teridax probably just assumed he could use it without much difficulty or danger.

I think teridax is definitely the most arrogant being in the MU, so I would definitely believe that he thought he could handle it (even if he couldn't). Or maybe he didn't care about consequences. All he is is smoke in a suit of armor. If he was accidentally aged 1000 years with the rest of the world, it woudnt even matter. Edited by ToaDume
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Speaking of Teridax, a major part of his Metru Nui takeover was to use the Vahi to make the 1000 years that was needed to kill Mata Nui happen quickly. Do you think he could have actually controlled the Vahi enough to do this? Tahu was hardly able to control it for more than about half a minute? Vakama messed up the instant he tried (froze himself in time as well as his target) so would Teridax be strong enough to make time flow faster for 1000 years?

Killing Mata Nui and possessing his body wasn’t originally part of the plan. He needed the Vahi to speed up the Matoran Spheres, which would have shut off after a certain amount of time. He wanted to erase their memories so he could establish himself as their ruler without objection, and with the Vahi he could do it instantly. The body thing was decided after he lost his armor in MoL, I believe.

 

And the Ignika being destroyed would bring everything to life, not destroy life. Turning black at the end of the countdown was what would kill everything.

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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If the Ignika were destroyed, all life in the MU would cease to exist. Or all inanimate objects would come to life.

Or both. That's part of the reason Teridax ejected it from the universe. He knew about the Ignika's countdown and the damage to it. In either case, he'd probably die.

I thought that too,but rereading it for the chronical, I'm not so sure. The vahi looked like it would destroy everything if destroyed, because the smallest crack made its power run wild. The ignika on the other hand did get a ton of cracks in mahri nui, but no power leaked from it (other than the usual curse). I think it would've been fine for it to be destroyed. Where I think everyone was panicking about rescuing it, was that if it was destroyed, then they couldn't use it to save mata nui (and so the universe would die). So I think the universe would indirectly die from it being destroyed, as compared to the direct death of the universe from the vahi. I think he removed the mask of life from the universe because it had the power to blow up the universe when if the MU was unbalanced. Why he didn't destroy it could have just been arrogance. He thought he was unstoppable and it didn't matter if it (or mata nui) lived (otherwise why not download if to something that could be destroyed). I could totally be wrong though, but that was my interpretation. Incidentally, if I am wrong, and all legendary masks unleash power on destruction, what would the mask of Creation do? Destroy all creativity in the universe? No inventions, no art, no dreams? It sounds weird, but that would kind of reset the MU to being the mindless drones the great beings intended them to before velika intervened wouldn't it?.

Actually when the Ignika cracked its power indeed "leaked" from it, in the form of air, when Dekar was carrying it that "air" merged with his personal air bubble to keep him from drowning. Another time was when Pridak was demonstrating the Ignika's power by holding up a fish next to (but not touching) the mask and the leaking power made the fish mutate before Pridak killed it. That was one reason the Barraki were so sure the mask would change them back, they were just waiting for it to break apart and then bathe in the leaked energies and that would give them back their true forms. (reference material: BL 7) But I agree with everyone, I'm pretty sure if the Ignika shattered it would bring life to everything around it.

 

And I'm quite sure it was confirmed that if the mask of creation was destroyed, the MU would lose the ability to create. I believe the Shattering had the same effect on the Agori and Glatorian, which is why nothing new was ever made on Bara Magna, but I'm not 100% sure if that is accurate.

 

 

 

Speaking of Teridax, a major part of his Metru Nui takeover was to use the Vahi to make the 1000 years that was needed to kill Mata Nui happen quickly. Do you think he could have actually controlled the Vahi enough to do this? Tahu was hardly able to control it for more than about half a minute? Vakama messed up the instant he tried (froze himself in time as well as his target) so would Teridax be strong enough to make time flow faster for 1000 years?

Tough to say. He is definitely might stronger than any Toa, so I feel like he could control it better than tahu did. But I still feel like (in my opinion), being the most powerful mask in existence, he wouldn't be able to control it perfectly. There would be some consequences. Maybe he was arrogant, and thought he could handle it, or maybe he didn't care about consequences. I mean technically, all he is smoke in a suit of armor. If he was aged 1000 years with the rest world, would it even matter for him?

Interestingly enough he *did* age 1000 by the end of that adventure, courtesy of Voporak.

 

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Good call. I didn't attribute the air bubbles or the mutated fish as leaking energy. I still think it can be argued that at minimum though the vahi is at least as powerful as the other legendary masks.

Good call. I didn't attribute the air bubbles or the mutated fish as the same type of leaking energy as when the vahi broke. I still think it can be argued that at minimum though the vahi is at least as powerful as the other legendary masks.

 

That's interesting about the mask of Creation. It must have been in an interview.

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My understanding was that the three Legendary Masks are so special because destroying any of them would, somehow, destroy the world as they know it. The reason given is that Time, Life, and Creation are the three fundamental forces of the universe, which I can buy.

 

In Makuta's Revenge, Tahu Nuva and Turaga Vakama discuss the Vahi, and Tahu talks about using the mask in battle, to speed himself up or slow his enemy down. Vakama says he's mistaken, but doesn't exactly say how, only that "he who controls time controls reality--controls everything."

 

I would argue that, in a fight, the Mask of Time is just as unhelpful as the Mask of Life, only for different reasons. The Mask of Time is too unstable to be used effectively. It's unclear if Makuta would have had the fortitude to use it for his intended purpose. It's possible the reason it is like that is because it was made by a here Toa, not a Great Being, hence the other two can better confer their power to the wearer. The Mask of Life, being crafted for only one specific purpose, isn't designed to be used in a fight, and would probably cause more harm than good. Plus, it curses you instantly unless you're the Destined Wearer, which there appears to only be one of at a time.

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Interestingly enough he *did* age 1000 by the end of that adventure, courtesy of Voporak.

 

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Wasn’t that just TSO?

 

It was both actually. If I'm remembering correctly, during the fight Voporak touched Teridax, which aged him 1000 years in a few seconds, but at the very end of the fight, Teridax grabbed and threw TSO into Voporak, and the latter's defensive powers took over and TSO hit the time "force field" surrounding Voporok, aging TSO thousands and thousands of years.

 

So yes TSO did also age, but he aged quite a lot more than Teridax did. :)

 

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I doubt aging a thousand years is much to a Makuta, since they lack the body parts to wear down, though I suppose it could slightly affect their armor, even though it’s protosteel and would probably hold up anyway... Have we gotten confirmation whether or not a Makuta can die of old age? It’s a pretty relevant question to Teridax’s plan. If time could kill him, what made him think he could rule the universe forever?

 

Back to the masks, I always thought, if anything, the Mask of Creation was less powerful than the other two. If it broke and nobody could create anything, the universe could survive for at least a little while. The Vahi and Ignika breaking both sound like instant doomsday-level chaos.

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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I doubt aging a thousand years is much to a Makuta, since they lack the body parts to wear down, though I suppose it could slightly affect their armor, even though it’s protosteel and would probably hold up anyway... Have we gotten confirmation whether or not a Makuta can die of old age? It’s a pretty relevant question to Teridax’s plan. If time could kill him, what made him think he could rule the universe forever?

I think when the Makuta became gas beings they stopped being mortal so they couldn't die of old age, but I might be wrong about that.

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This forum is not quite dead yet. The BMP forums, though? As much as I like them, don't expect a response there. I believe the Mask of Time is just as powerful as the other masks. For an  in-story reason, Artahka had thousands of years to hone his talent with the Mask of Creation, and The Ignika basically controlled itself. Life and Creation are also handled by everyday beings on a certain level. Time is a different matter entirely, only being observed passively by everyday beings.

 

On a non-story note, the Vahi was scaled in power at the beginning of the series, and so it was extremely scaled up from normal mask powers. Masks later in the series had to be used quickly and efficiently to advance the plot. Another reason: if the Vahi could be used efficiently, whoever held it (at the point of 2003 onward, the Toa) would become extremely overpowered.

 

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it's probably obvious that masks are only as good as it source.

 

ignika= crafted by the great beings as a experiment, later repurposed as a source of life/jumpstarter since mata nui essentially is living machine

 

mask of creation= given to artakha by the great to be responsible for the infinite source of creative thinking for the universe

 

vakama was a simple inhabitant who was a crafter, no one knows if who created the disks or who planted them. and we don't  know if vakama had the right skill to make the progress into a actual great mask as with if a great being had created the vahi

 

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According to Biosector01, Artakha made the Great Disks, and they where likely designed by the Great Beings and written into the Destiny of the Matoran Universe, thinkin

Forgot about that, he must have had it in his supplies. Later he forgot he made them and was too lazy to care about crafting anything out of them it, thinking they would never be needed so he had  OoMN scatter the disks for him.

 

Still i wonder if the mask had greater potential  if it had been made by Artakha since he has more intricate knowledge compared to a Toa who was under a lot of stress.

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Interestingly enough he *did* age 1000 by the end of that adventure, courtesy of Voporak.

 

w3hUyFC.gif

Wasn’t that just TSO?

 

It was both actually. If I'm remembering correctly, during the fight Voporak touched Teridax, which aged him 1000 years in a few seconds, but at the very end of the fight, Teridax grabbed and threw TSO into Voporak, and the latter's defensive powers took over and TSO hit the time "force field" surrounding Voporok, aging TSO thousands and thousands of years.

 

So yes TSO did also age, but he aged quite a lot more than Teridax did. :)

 

I wonder if that was just the right amount of deterioration that allowed for his armor to be destroyed. Though with the weight of the gate, I think it still would have crushed it.

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Interestingly enough he *did* age 1000 by the end of that adventure, courtesy of Voporak.

 

w3hUyFC.gif

Wasn’t that just TSO?

It was both actually. If I'm remembering correctly, during the fight Voporak touched Teridax, which aged him 1000 years in a few seconds, but at the very end of the fight, Teridax grabbed and threw TSO into Voporak, and the latter's defensive powers took over and TSO hit the time "force field" surrounding Voporok, aging TSO thousands and thousands of years.

 

So yes TSO did also age, but he aged quite a lot more than Teridax did. :)

I wonder if that was just the right amount of deterioration that allowed for his armor to be destroyed. Though with the weight of the gate, I think it still would have crushed it.

I think that was just the result of having a massive piece of solid rock falling on him.

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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Interestingly enough he *did* age 1000 by the end of that adventure, courtesy of Voporak.

 

w3hUyFC.gif

Wasn’t that just TSO?
It was both actually. If I'm remembering correctly, during the fight Voporak touched Teridax, which aged him 1000 years in a few seconds, but at the very end of the fight, Teridax grabbed and threw TSO into Voporak, and the latter's defensive powers took over and TSO hit the time "force field" surrounding Voporok, aging TSO thousands and thousands of years.

 

So yes TSO did also age, but he aged quite a lot more than Teridax did. :)

I wonder if that was just the right amount of deterioration that allowed for his armor to be destroyed. Though with the weight of the gate, I think it still would have crushed it.

I think that was just the result of having a massive piece of solid rock falling on him.

 

Wasn't it metal?

 

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Interestingly enough he *did* age 1000 by the end of that adventure, courtesy of Voporak.

 

w3hUyFC.gif

Wasn’t that just TSO?
It was both actually. If I'm remembering correctly, during the fight Voporak touched Teridax, which aged him 1000 years in a few seconds, but at the very end of the fight, Teridax grabbed and threw TSO into Voporak, and the latter's defensive powers took over and TSO hit the time "force field" surrounding Voporok, aging TSO thousands and thousands of years.

 

So yes TSO did also age, but he aged quite a lot more than Teridax did. :)

I wonder if that was just the right amount of deterioration that allowed for his armor to be destroyed. Though with the weight of the gate, I think it still would have crushed it.
I think that was just the result of having a massive piece of solid rock falling on him.

Wasn't it metal?

 

:kakama:

I could swear the Piraka found his armor under a pile of broken rocks.

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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