Do Matoran transform into what they believe a Toa looks like?

[Danska: Shadow Master]

Years ago now, I remember an idea floating around that when Matoran turn into Toa, they turn into what they believe a Toa looks like. I know this was a very popular theory, but for the life of me I can't remember if it was ever canonised. I believe the whole idea started to explain why Takanuva looks like a Toa Nuva and not a Toa Mata. Can anyone remember or, better yet, find anything to definitively confirm or deny that this is canon?

My rummage through Biosector01 was not successful, and I fear any answer may be locked away in the endless archives of Greg Q&As.

Thank you!

[Aderia]

(going off of G1 knowledge) This is what I found on BS01, also recently just stumbled across it. Fascinating, but because of the 'citation needed' note, I'm not sure if this is the answer you are looking for. Either way, it's a fascinating concept, and I would be curious to know what the limitations of variation of appearance based on expectations are. Like, why is Matau more or less identical to his fellow Toa Metru, if his expectations of Toa and what it meant to be a Toa-hero were so much grander? I get, set-wise, it's practical and looks unified, but story-wise, it's just an interesting question, like does a Matoran society have a collective idea of what a hero should be? But also, I suppose if the Toa Metru only knew of the same Toa prior to their transformation, that would make sense (Lhikan, Toa Mangai, etc?). 

Also, what other canon examples do we have of Toa being created by 'normal' means? I assume that means a Toa-stone? Haven't most of the Toa we've seen been Toa created by not-'normal' means? I can only think of the Toa Metru. Except, your example of Takanuva transforming to be like a Toa Nuva not a Toa Mata would seem to be a not-normal transformation? Are Toa-stones not normal, then? 

Haha, great question, and I didn't realize how much there was to unpack until I started to reply. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Aderia

[jchavoya]

It was definitely canon. I think it was canon for the sole reason to explain why the metru matoran looked like lhikan and why takua turned into something looking like a toa nuva even though he never underwent nuva transformation. As to why matua didn't look more grand, maybe you look like what you expect a general toa to look like, not like what you would expect YOURSELF to look like as a toa. So he looked like his thought of the average toa, but was disappointed he didn't look better than the average toa. 

[Mukaukau Nuva]

This post on the "Official Greg Dialogue" is the closest thing that I can find to back up that oft-heard sentence.

It is odd. It seems everyone (including myself) heard this at some point and filed it away, but it has become so ingrained no one can remember where it came from. I was surprised that it wasn't in the 2007 Updated Encyclopedia. I could have sworn I read it in there.

[Danska: Shadow Master]

Thanks for the answers (and sources) everyone! You are better researchers than I. It's definitely one of the more interesting bits of lore that got canonised. I have a feeling it was floating around for a long time before that happened, and it was so popular it snuck its way into the collective understanding of how things work.

[TERIDAX941]

It's just as well none of the VN matoran turned into Toa before the Inika showed up, otherwise they'd end up looking like Zaktan and the crew lol

[Sir Kohran]

I believe the whole idea started to explain why Takanuva looks like a Toa Nuva and not a Toa Mata.

I think it was canon for the sole reason to explain why the metru matoran looked like lhikan and why takua turned into something looking like a toa nuva even though he never underwent nuva transformation.

If this is true, why didn't Jaller and co look like Toa Nuva or Takanuva when they became Toa?

[The 1st Shadow]

2 hours ago, Sir Kohran said:

If this is true, why didn't Jaller and co look like Toa Nuva or Takanuva when they became Toa?

Their transformation was not normal by any means. The lightning from the Red Star isn't the same as a Toa Stone, so it resulted in their bodies becoming some weird new design. This is made clearer by the fact that their bodies had other weird properties, like glowing faces, elemental energy intertwined with lightning, etc. When they became Toa Mahri, their transformation was under the Ignika's jurisdiction, so they had no say in that instance either.

[Sir Kohran]

11 hours ago, The 1st Shadow said:

Their transformation was not normal by any means. The lightning from the Red Star isn't the same as a Toa Stone, so it resulted in their bodies becoming some weird new design. This is made clearer by the fact that their bodies had other weird properties, like glowing faces, elemental energy intertwined with lightning, etc. When they became Toa Mahri, their transformation was under the Ignika's jurisdiction, so they had no say in that instance either.

So is a transformation only normal if it's through a Toa Stone? Was Takua's transformation not normal when it was caused by a mask?

[Danska: Shadow Master]

1 hour ago, Sir Kohran said:

So is a transformation only normal if it's through a Toa Stone? Was Takua's transformation not normal when it was caused by a mask?

According to the Avohkii page on Biosector01, the Avohkii was charged with Toa power so acted like a Toa Stone, making that a 'normal' transformation.

How or why this was the case, who knows? It makes me wonder if other objects can be charged with Toa power, or whether it's only Toa stones and special objects like the Avohkii.

[MoarBotar]

6 hours ago, Danska: Shadow Master said:

It makes me wonder if other objects can be charged with Toa power, or whether it's only Toa stones and special objects like the Avohkii.

The Biosector Toa Stone page says that any ordinary stone can be used-which seems to suggest that so long as the Toa Power can enter it, any object could potentially be used as a Toa Stone........ which kinda makes me wonder why they don't just cut out the middleman and put the power directly into the Matoran?    

[Danska: Shadow Master]

7 minutes ago, MoarBotar said:

The Biosector Toa Stone page says that any ordinary stone can be used-which seems to suggest that so long as the Toa Power can enter it, any object could potentially be used as a Toa Stone........ which kinda makes me wonder why they don't just cut out the middleman and put the power directly into the Matoran?    

That might be possible, assuming they know for certain of a Matoran that's destined to become a Toa. Otherwise they're just putting that power into a random Matoran where I assume it wouldn't do anything at all (except possibly make them glow), unless they came into contact with another Matoran who was destined to be a Toa.

I'm liking the potential story possibilities of literally anything potentially being a Toa Stone.

[MoarBotar]

I mean, it does make me wonder if Lhikan would have still died if he had turned the Matoran into the Toa Metru as he found them... would he still have been captured if Vakama could have helped him? Yes inexperienced and toolless, but still....  

[jchavoya]

3 hours ago, MoarBotar said:

I mean, it does make me wonder if Lhikan would have still died if he had turned the Matoran into the Toa Metru as he found them... would he still have been captured if Vakama could have helped him? Yes inexperienced and toolless, but still....  

I think it's faster to hand stones to each matoran and let them change later. Plus if he had changed vakama when he found him, nidhiki would have probably suggested catching him too.

[Sir Kohran]

9 hours ago, MoarBotar said:

I mean, it does make me wonder if Lhikan would have still died if he had turned the Matoran into the Toa Metru as he found them... would he still have been captured if Vakama could have helped him? Yes inexperienced and toolless, but still....  

Lhikan escaped capture with some of the Toa, then his death happened in a separate situation and by then the Matoran had been Toa for quite a while, so whether the Matoran became Toa when he visited them or (as it happened) a bit later wouldn't have changed his ultimate fate.

[jchavoya]

9 hours ago, Sir Kohran said:

Lhikan escaped capture with some of the Toa, then his death happened in a separate situation and by then the Matoran had been Toa for quite a while, so whether the Matoran became Toa when he visited them or (as it happened) a bit later wouldn't have changed his ultimate fate.

I think they're wondering whether a powerless, weaponless, inexperienced toa vakama would have been enough to help lhikan fight off nidhiki and krekka so that he effectively never would have gone to prison. Then maybe he might have been able to alter the timeline enough to have never died. Personally I think vakama would have been less than useless to help lhikan fight off nidhiki and krekka, and they would have both ended up trapped. Then, without vakamas visions, the other toa wouldn't have collected the great discs so that the morbuzukah would have won.  I suppose lhikan would have survived because the morbuzukah would have killed everyone else and teridax would've won....

[Sir Kohran]

7 hours ago, jchavoya said:

I think they're wondering whether a powerless, weaponless, inexperienced toa vakama would have been enough to help lhikan fight off nidhiki and krekka so that he effectively never would have gone to prison. Then maybe he might have been able to alter the timeline enough to have never died. Personally I think vakama would have been less than useless to help lhikan fight off nidhiki and krekka, and they would have both ended up trapped. Then, without vakamas visions, the other toa wouldn't have collected the great discs so that the morbuzukah would have won.  I suppose lhikan would have survived because the morbuzukah would have killed everyone else and teridax would've won....

If Teridax/Makuta won, why would he want or need to keep Lhikan alive?

Just to be clear, my point was that whether or not Lhikan was captured didn't change whether or not he died, because his death (during Vakama facing Makuta) had nothing to do with the capture.

[MoarBotar]

8 hours ago, jchavoya said:

I think they're wondering whether a powerless, weaponless, inexperienced toa vakama would have been enough to help lhikan fight off nidhiki and krekka so that he effectively never would have gone to prison.

Bang on (I think I should have elaborated more...) 

See what I'm wondering is if Lhikan could have evaded capture, would he have still become a Turaga or stayed a Toa to train the others more effectively? And if he were a Toa when he confronted Teridax, maybe he could have survived? 

My understanding is that Lhikan became a Turaga because his destiny was complete, then immediately turns around and starts training Nuju, Onewa, and Whenua. I'm just wondering if it was a bit of a "well, I'm in prison. Guess I'm done" kinda thing. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but that always felt to me to be a bit anticlimactic. (also his death seemed anticlimactic too. What is more powerful, Teridax or Vahi? NOPE-old man beats both) 

(I realize there's a lot of speculation here, but what are forums for? ) 

Edited November 19, 2019 by MoarBotar

[Sir Kohran]

See what I'm wondering is 

if Lhikan could have evaded capture, would he have still become a Turaga or stayed a Toa to train the others more effectively?

Didn't he have to become a Turaga for them to become Toa? ("Where did your power go?" "It lives on in all of you!")

And if he were a Toa when he confronted Teridax, maybe he could have survived? 

He would've had more of a chance at least.

(also his death seemed anticlimactic too. What is more powerful, Teridax or Vahi? NOPE-old man beats both) 

How is dying in the climax to save a friend anticlimactic?

 

[MoarBotar]

3 hours ago, Sir Kohran said:

Didn't he have to become a Turaga for them to become Toa? ("Where did your power go?" "It lives on in all of you!")

The Biosector article on Toa Power says: "The amount of Toa Power that a Toa has has never been quantified. Based on the Toa Metru, six Toa collectively have enough power to create six Toa Stones, heal a mortally wounded ash bear, and revive several thousand comatose Matoran before ultimately running out of power."  So in theory he would have still had a lot of Power left-unless the amount of Power a Toa has varies depending on what team they are a part of (which, to be fair could be true. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that the Inika have more power than normal Toa due to the influence of the Red Star). 

3 hours ago, Sir Kohran said:

How is dying in the climax to save a friend anticlimactic?

I agree-its a moving and very satisfying moment on an emotional level. But from a canon perspective it's always struck me as a bit dicey. How did an old Turaga book it over to Vakama so quickly? I believe the Vahi did affect him when he ran over (though that could have just been the movie using slow motion for dramatic effect), but if this is the case imagine how that scene would have looked in real-time. I'm not sure a Turaga can move so fast. But as I say that maybe my problem isn't with the Turaga but with the way the Vahi has been used in the story. 

I realize I'm kinda out on a limb here (and I've also totally derailed this topic so sorry about that), but I guess all I'm saying is I would have liked to see more of Toa Lhikan interacting with the Toa Metru. Canon suspicions aside (and if I'm wrong on those points please correct me!) I love the scene. It's a powerful moment in the movie and helps develop Vakama's character, while providing a non-cheesy stimulus for Vakama to discover his mask power.