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Elements and subcategories


Axelford

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Hello, I was thinking would secondary ‘elements’ like iron, gravity, lightning etc be classified as derivatives of the main 6 elements? Eg lightning being a improved water one? Or iron being a weaker derivative of earth?

also what even is plasma? As the scientific term is that it’s a state of matter that can conduct electricity well, but biosector etc treat it like its some molten laser thing.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Axelford said:

Eg lightning being a improved water one?

Wh--how? How is electricity derived from water?

20 hours ago, Axelford said:

also what even is plasma? As the scientific term is that it’s a state of matter that can conduct electricity well, but biosector etc treat it like its some molten laser thing.

Plasma is Air except spicy.

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On 11/20/2019 at 11:22 AM, Axelford said:

I was thinking would secondary ‘elements’ like iron, gravity, lightning etc be classified as derivatives of the main 6 elements? Eg lightning being a improved water one? Or iron being a weaker derivative of earth?

As I understand it, they're more referred to as secondary elements in the sense of commonality/frequency of occurrence. There just happens to be, for whatever reason (well, technically the Great Beings picked them I guess when you look at the MU), a really, really, really high population among the six common elements relative to the others. But I kinda see what you're saying-iron/earth makes sense and air/jungle (pardon me, THE GREEN) have always been very closely related. Perhaps there could be an element of overlap between the elements? I vaguely remember Tahu or some other Toa of fire drawing all the heat out of an object or an area to freeze it (even if I totally made that up, it seems plausible I think).

5 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

Plasma is Air except spicy.

I straight up don't even care what anyone says, from now on this is the canon definition of Plasma. If Greg Farshtey and god both appeared in my room right now and told me this definition was wrong, I'd fight them. I salute you Sir Kek:bowdown:      

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On 11/20/2019 at 2:22 PM, Axelford said:

Hello, I was thinking would secondary ‘elements’ like iron, gravity, lightning etc be classified as derivatives of the main 6 elements? Eg lightning being a improved water one? Or iron being a weaker derivative of earth?

also what even is plasma? As the scientific term is that it’s a state of matter that can conduct electricity well, but biosector etc treat it like its some molten laser thing.

As others have said, I really have no idea what you mean regarding lightning and water.

As for the general concept you're proposing - all Toa elements are generally considered totally separate and distinct, no matter how similar. A good example of this is a Toa Seal: a Toa Seal can only be created by 6 Toa of different elements - it won't work if any 2 are the same element. So if some elements were just variations of others, it wouldn't make much sense for them to be able to form a Toa Seal together (which they all can).

As for Plasma: Biosector01 describes the element of Plasma as "superheated gas." It's mostly used in-story for melting things.

 

44 minutes ago, MoarBotar said:

I vaguely remember Tahu or some other Toa of fire drawing all the heat out of an object or an area to freeze it (even if I totally made that up, it seems plausible I think).

That was Toa Vakama, when he fought an entity made entirely of fire in the tunnels between Mangaia and the Great Barrier: https://crosswiredgeeks.com/biologicalchronicle-book5chapter13/

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On 11/20/2019 at 11:22 AM, Axelford said:

Eg lightning being a improved water one?

What? Why? Lightning is electricity (which in turn is a form of energy), not water!

 

7 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

Plasma is Air except spicy.

I think you meant to say "superheated," but I get what you mean.

Edited by Laval- Master of Energy
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Thanks for all the replies, sorry about the lightning thing I just thought that there might be a connection as water conducts electricity and Ga toa have a bit of control over the weather. Also to rephrase my question I just thought that maybe most secondary elements could be connected to the 6 main ones in someway as they are often more specific than ‘fire’ e.g ‘heat’

 

 

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I made charts!! I love charts!! I was actually puzzled by related questions recently, as well. I'm not sure if this breakdown helps anyone else, but I had fun. I think it's pretty self-explanatory? Elemental energy acting on different types of substances. I do appreciate the clarification between what a primary versus a secondary element is. Never quite knew. 

 The original is the one with the squares (rectangles with round corners), but then plantlife was a bother, so I used the circles. The lines of thinking for plantlife were basically "what a waterbender can do". Also, question about plantlife - if a Toa of Plantlife had been in Metru Nui whilst the city was plagued with the Morbuzakh, to what extent could that Toa of the Green have eliminated the threat? I think the same question might be asked of a Toa of Psionics. Also, would psionics be able to affect the Inika's organic masks? So many possibilities. 

I'm no physicist or natural scientist, so I'm in no place to speculate how these elements and/or their protodermis equivalents behave and can be manipulated, but yeah. Looking possibly for more definition between intangible elements, since there are so many of them.

(also vote that plasma should be defined as spicy air @SirKek and co.)

1769966639_MUElementgrouping.png.d005375649b36eb1ba1258995ffc4e8d.png1478654077_ScreenShot2019-11-24at3_14_56AM.png.1e6c1a00b6e80c0cb809ca6af27b62b7.png

Edited by Aderia
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16 hours ago, Aderia said:

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So I think this is a good baseline for how to think about elements, and it's a good idea to consider that some elements can be multiple things, but I don't agree with where you've put some of the stuff. Given the choice, I'd group them like this:

Energy-based: Fire, Light (it's literally just energy in wave form), Lightning, Magnetism (comes from the same force as electricity)

Earthly: Earth (duh), Stone, Iron, The Green, Ice (debatable, but it does technically form part of the "land" at the poles)

Fluid: Water, Air, Plasma (it's not energy, it's still physical stuff, just really hot stuff)

Immaterial: Sonics (not sure where to put this tbh, it's kind of a dumb element idea), Psionics, Gravity, Shadow

Edited by Sir Keksalot
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On 11/24/2019 at 7:49 PM, Sir Keksalot said:

So I think this is a good baseline for how to think about elements, and it's a good idea to consider that some elements can be multiple things, but I don't agree with where you've put some of the stuff. Given the choice, I'd group them like this:

Energy-based: Fire, Light (it's literally just energy in wave form), Lightning, Magnetism (comes from the same force as electricity)

Earthly: Earth (duh), Stone, Iron, The Green, Ice (debatable, but it does technically form part of the "land" at the poles)

Fluid: Water, Air, Plasma (it's not energy, it's still physical stuff, just really hot stuff)

Immaterial: Sonics (not sure where to put this tbh, it's kind of a dumb element idea), Psionics, Gravity, Shadow

Well, looks like I completely overlooked light being pure energy, great point. Is a Toa of Light a Toa of Lasers, then? And for magnetism and plasma, thanks for the insight, never was entirely sure how those worked. Yeah, and shadow always confused me, as to what it can and can't do, and what a Toa could do vs what a Makuta could do with it.  

On 11/24/2019 at 10:33 PM, MoarBotar said:

K I'm just gonna keep having prolonged, successive aneurysms until I figure this out: which elements go in the overlap areas and WHICH ELEMENT GOES IN THE MIDDLE!? 

I must know the super element. Time? Creation?    

Haha, well I hope you have remained aneurysm free. I'm not sure each overlapping category has to have something in it. If I had to categorize the legendary 'elements', if they're called that, I think I'd have creation in the middle. I'm not entirely sure how creation and life are different. Time would probably be immaterial? It would be a fun project to try and come up with a system to categorize all the powers listed on the BS01 page

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2 hours ago, Aderia said:

Well, looks like I completely overlooked light being pure energy, great point. Is a Toa of Light a Toa of Lasers, then? And for magnetism and plasma, thanks for the insight, never was entirely sure how those worked. Yeah, and shadow always confused me, as to what it can and can't do, and what a Toa could do vs what a Makuta could do with it.  

Haha, well I hope you have remained aneurysm free. I'm not sure each overlapping category has to have something in it. If I had to categorize the legendary 'elements', if they're called that, I think I'd have creation in the middle. I'm not entirely sure how creation and life are different. Time would probably be immaterial? It would be a fun project to try and come up with a system to categorize all the powers listed on the BS01 page

"Light," scientifically-speaking, encompasses everything from radio waves to gamma radiation. What a Toa of Light can do depends on what the in-universe definition of "light" is. If he cannot make lasers, though, he doesn't have much offensive power, just illusions and blinding peeps.

Shadow is honestly a dumb idea for an element. Shadows are just where light isn't; what power set comes from that? It feels like a bit of a "wastebin" element, much like Psionics, where a bunch of unrelated powers are thrown in for coolness.

"Creation" is a woefully nebulous term, but "Life" is easier to pin down. It deals with imbuing things with sentience and willpower and manipulating the structure of organic entities. Time--and I'm being bold here, but just hear me out--should actually be lumped in with Gravity as a "spacetime" element; let's call it "Aether." See, gravity is caused by the warping of spacetime, and it affects time as well as space, which we can tell because time gets messy around black holes. So, therefore, a Toa of Aether should have *very* limited control over time; though not as much as the Vahi would grant. And then maybe they can make wormholes, too. Sadly, Lego did not do this admittedly epic thing.

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