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The De-Matoran had it pretty bad.


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The Matoran of Sonics (and Toa for that matter) must have been created as some kind of failed experiment, or maybe a sick joke by one of the Great Beings, I'm convinced of it. Every other Matoran/Toa has elemental powers that benefit them, but for the Sonics guys, their powers are actually a DETRIMENT to them.The fact that De-Matoran and Toa are sensitive to loud sounds and have to live in a quiet place is like if the Ta-Matoran were sensitive to heat and had to live in a cold place, or if the Ko-Matoran were sensitive to the cold and had to live in a hot place. I know that this is because they have acute hearing abilities, but you would think the logical thing to do would be to make them have acute hearing AND resistance to loud sounds. If their entire specialty is sound, I think it would make sense for them to amplify higher and more distant sounds in their ears, while louder and closer sounds would be decreased in volume. What do you guys think? Are the De-Matoran unfortunate, or could they have some kind of justification for their sensitivity?

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Stuff like this is why Sonics is a dumb element. Just make a Kinesis element or lump in sonic powers with the physical elements and be done with it.

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10 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

Stuff like this is why Sonics is a dumb element. Just make a Kinesis element or lump in sonic powers with the physical elements and be done with it.

Or, a Toa Nuva is Sonics can resist the weakness much better. Just saying.

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12 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

Stuff like this is why Sonics is a dumb element. Just make a Kinesis element or lump in sonic powers with the physical elements and be done with it.

I agree. To be totally honest, I don't like most of the "secondary" elements that they have. A lot of them seem to just be powers of other elements. Like Plasma, which is basically Fire but on steroids. And Iron feels like a sub-power of Stone, dealing with strong materials and such. (I also think the Sand element on Bara Magna is dumb for this reason. It should be part of Stone.) Gravity and Magnetism should be part of Earth to help differentiate it more from Stone. And Sonics and Psionics are both elements that I just don't see a reason for being an element at all. Sound is just energy waves, and Psionics powers are used by so many other beings and masks in the first place that I just don't see the point in having it as a separate element. Lightning/Electricity and The Green are the only secondary elements that I think are justified. I can see both being used in unique ways. 

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You know what, I'm going to edit this idea a bit. According to BS01, many Toa of Magnetism were killed by the Makuta because it could mess with their armor too much. So in order to avoid this problem, we could just not make magnetism an elemental power at all. Gravity can stay with Earth, but instead of Magnetism, the Earth element could incorporate the powers of Sonics and Lightning as well. Sonics involves waves of energy (sound) which could fit into the aspect of Earth dealing more with natural forces, while things like Iron fit into Stone because that deals with the actual physical material (Earth deals with physical material too but the difference between Stone and Earth was always a bit strange to me, so I think this would differentiate them better). And thinking about it more, Lightning seems like an interesting individual element, but it's more of a force than an abundant material like all the primary elements, so it would be cool to make it a limited sub-power of Earth. The Green is good because it involves an abundant thing, plant life, which can be created and manipulated like the other primary elements, and considering they even made it the replacement for Air in G2 entirely, I think it can stand as a separate element.

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Idk, if you take it far enough, you should combine ice with water since they're basically different phases of the same element.

An argument could be made though that ice controls temperature as well as the actual element, (being able to create ice and freeze other things as well), and that helps keep the two elements seperate.

 

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6 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

You know what, I'm going to edit this idea a bit. According to BS01, many Toa of Magnetism were killed by the Makuta because it could mess with their armor too much. So in order to avoid this problem, we could just not make magnetism an elemental power at all. Gravity can stay with Earth, but instead of Magnetism, the Earth element could incorporate the powers of Sonics and Lightning as well. Sonics involves waves of energy (sound) which could fit into the aspect of Earth dealing more with natural forces, while things like Iron fit into Stone because that deals with the actual physical material (Earth deals with physical material too but the difference between Stone and Earth was always a bit strange to me, so I think this would differentiate them better). And thinking about it more, Lightning seems like an interesting individual element, but it's more of a force than an abundant material like all the primary elements, so it would be cool to make it a limited sub-power of Earth. The Green is good because it involves an abundant thing, plant life, which can be created and manipulated like the other primary elements, and considering they even made it the replacement for Air in G2 entirely, I think it can stand as a separate element.

I think this is kinda excessive. Fire is a chemical reaction, not a thing, so if it gets to be an element, why not electricity? If you want to lump Lightning in with something, combine it with Magnetism, since they're controlled by the same force. And Iron's pretty different from Stone in practice, since metal is a lot more malleable than rock. I should think Stone oughta be lumped in with Earth, since Onua gets to make earthquakes, which requires him to move tectonic plates, which are made of rock; and then Pohatu gets some other element that fits his fighting style (kineeeeeeeeeesiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis...). And should Psionics even be an element? It seems like a "wastebin" element for miscellaneous powers as it is; and without telekinesis, it's kind of pathetic compared to the others; to add to this, it's not even really a thing that you can manipulate and throw at people like other elements.

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8 hours ago, Iron_Man5 said:

Idk, if you take it far enough, you should combine ice with water since they're basically different phases of the same element.

An argument could be made though that ice controls temperature as well as the actual element, (being able to create ice and freeze other things as well), and that helps keep the two elements seperate.

Yeah, I would say they can serve as separate elements because I would say Ice involves the temperature more than the substance itself and can deal with other cold objects while Water can manipulate the liquid form which includes things like manipulating moisture.

 

5 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

I think this is kinda excessive. Fire is a chemical reaction, not a thing, so if it gets to be an element, why not electricity? If you want to lump Lightning in with something, combine it with Magnetism, since they're controlled by the same force. And Iron's pretty different from Stone in practice, since metal is a lot more malleable than rock. I should think Stone oughta be lumped in with Earth, since Onua gets to make earthquakes, which requires him to move tectonic plates, which are made of rock; and then Pohatu gets some other element that fits his fighting style (kineeeeeeeeeesiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis...). And should Psionics even be an element? It seems like a "wastebin" element for miscellaneous powers as it is; and without telekinesis, it's kind of pathetic compared to the others; to add to this, it's not even really a thing that you can manipulate and throw at people like other elements.

The thing is that Fire isn't just about the chemical reaction, it's really about heat overall which itself is just energy and can be found anywhere. All matter has a level of energy that can become heat. Meanwhile electricity is less common because not everything is able to conduct electricity. However I do like the idea of combining it with Magnetism because they are indeed caused by the same force. I suggested combining it with Earth because as I said before, the difference between Stone and Earth feels so vague that ideally I would make them just one element, however I wanted to think of a way to keep them separate while having unique differences, so I thought Stone could be for things like rocks and soil (essentially combining what Stone and Earth are now) while Earth changes entirely to involve the natural forces.

I suppose metal is different enough from stone - perhaps you could combine Electricity, Magnetism, and Iron into one element since metals are sometimes magnetic and good conductors of electricity? Maybe not lightning, but just conductive electricity as a sub-power. Then Stone and Earth can become one element and just deal with the kinesis of rocks and soil, and Gravity could be a sub-power. Sonics is just air vibrations, which already kind of exists as a result of making earthquakes, it's the same exact thing just in a different medium. I also think Sonics, with air as the medium, can just be incorporated into Air as a sub-power.

I also agree with your point about Psionics, I stated before that I don't see the point in it being an element when it's just a power used by so many miscellaneous beings and masks.

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3 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

The thing is that Fire isn't just about the chemical reaction, it's really about heat overall which itself is just energy and can be found anywhere. All matter has a level of energy that can become heat. Meanwhile electricity is less common because not everything is able to conduct electricity.

Fair enough.

3 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

However I do like the idea of combining it with Magnetism because they are indeed caused by the same force. I suggested combining it with Earth because as I said before, the difference between Stone and Earth feels so vague that ideally I would make them just one element, however I wanted to think of a way to keep them separate while having unique differences, so I thought Stone could be for things like rocks and soil (essentially combining what Stone and Earth are now) while Earth changes entirely to involve the natural forces.

The trouble there is that Earth no longer denotes...well, earth. You can spin "natural forces" as any number of things. Gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear force (though I have no idea how you'd make elemental powers outta those)...it'd get stupidly overpowered if taken to its logical extreme because you'd get such a variety of powers in one package. On top of that, none of these powers really fit how we see Onua fight. This is why I recommended replacing Stone with "Kinesis:" it's a fairly specific thing that has a variety of useful applications if you're creative with it, just like any other element; and it fits Pohatu himself.

At one point, I did try to reconcile Stone and Earth as different elements. The topic on that is here if you wanna see what I came up with. However, looking back, I realize that it doesn't make a lot of sense to scientifically explain the difference between two power sets in a magic system that's not based on a scientific understanding of matter and energy. Sadly, one element has to get the axe unless the originators of the elemental power system would have been able to know about geology.

3 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

I suppose metal is different enough from stone - perhaps you could combine Electricity, Magnetism, and Iron into one element since metals are sometimes magnetic and good conductors of electricity? Maybe not lightning, but just conductive electricity as a sub-power.

I think conduction just comes with being able to manipulate a conductive material by default. Electromagnetism is a property that exists independently of metal and, again, it'd allow for some VERY different powers to be lumped together into one, super-powerful element.

4 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

Then Stone and Earth can become one element and just deal with the kinesis of rocks and soil, and Gravity could be a sub-power.

I think Gravity makes more sense as a component of a "Spacetime" element--let's call it "Aether"--that also allows for the creation of wormholes and very weak time manipulation, since gravity results from matter distorting the fabric of space.

4 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

I stated before that I don't see the point in it being an element

Whoops, didn't see that. My b.

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4 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

At one point, I did try to reconcile Stone and Earth as different elements. The topic on that is here if you wanna see what I came up with. However, looking back, I realize that it doesn't make a lot of sense to scientifically explain the difference between two power sets in a magic system that's not based on a scientific understanding of matter and energy. Sadly, one element has to get the axe unless the originators of the elemental power system would have been able to know about geology.

I like that post you made about the differences! It's definitely kind of a stretch but if you want to really try to separate the two elements further, I think that's an interesting way to do it. However I also kind of agree that it's overthinking a bit to try to separate them - it's better to just accept it as it is, with Earth being small particles and organic soil as well, and Stone being larger rocks. To be fair, Earth does have another aspect that differentiates it - night vision. However I still think Sand is dumb to have as a separate element on Spherus Magna, it should've just been called the Stone tribe and been the same thing as Stone in the Matoran Universe. 

4 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

Electromagnetism is a property that exists independently of metal and, again, it'd allow for some VERY different powers to be lumped together into one, super-powerful element.

Fair enough about it being possibly too powerful. I suppose having Electromagnetism and Iron as separate elements would make them more balanced.

4 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

I think Gravity makes more sense as a component of a "Spacetime" element--let's call it "Aether"--that also allows for the creation of wormholes and very weak time manipulation, since gravity results from matter distorting the fabric of space.

An Aether element would be really interesting.

This is a really cool topic to talk about, thinking about how we would redo the elements if we could. For the most part, I wasn't trying to think about how I would redo them as the story stands, but if I were to redo the story as a whole, if that makes any sense, so it's not really related to how Onua and other Earth beings currently use their powers. Obviously if we were to add or change powers, it would probably change the entire lore as a whole. But it's fun to think about how it would be different.

 

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11 hours ago, TakadoxMusic said:

This is a really cool topic to talk about, thinking about how we would redo the elements if we could. For the most part, I wasn't trying to think about how I would redo them as the story stands, but if I were to redo the story as a whole, if that makes any sense, so it's not really related to how Onua and other Earth beings currently use their powers. Obviously if we were to add or change powers, it would probably change the entire lore as a whole. But it's fun to think about how it would be different.

Any chance you wanna take this to a new topic in general? There seems to be a lot to talk about here.

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From what I understood, most of the secondary elements trace their roots in the powers the Bohrok Kal introduced.  Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism, Vacuum, Plasma and Sonics all came from the Kal. I don't really think though that the Kal were meant to be a big introduction to new elements, I thought back in 2003 they were just cool new powers. It seems as time went on though, those Kal powers got all canonized as elemental sub-sets with the exception of Vacuum which was still lumped into air. 

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1 hour ago, Xboxtravis said:

It seems as time went on though, those Kal powers got all canonized as elemental sub-sets with the exception of Vacuum which was still lumped into air. 

Y'know, now's a good a time as any to ask: why did all the Bohrok get elements (or powers that would become elements) except Lehvak and Lehvak-Kal? I understand Vacuum not getting an element, and the retroactive elementalization of some of the Kal powers makes sense; but why didn't Lehvak get Air powers, and why wasn't Acid made an element? And if Vacuum didn't get to be an element, why did Magnetism, Plasma, and Sonics get elements when they don't really stand on their own too well as fully-fledged elements?

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2 hours ago, Sir Keksalot said:

-- why wasn't Acid made an element?

I don't know about the rest, but I believe I heard that the story team decided that air wouldn't do as much a good of job of cleaning the island as Acid does. It did make the Lehvak one of the more feared Bohrok types since their acid was so destructive and deadly, I personally liked that touch. :smilelehvak:

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5 hours ago, Xboxtravis said:

those Kal powers got all canonized as elemental sub-sets with the exception of Vacuum which was still lumped into air.

That's exactly why a lot of these sub-elements seem kind of ridiculous to have as separate elements. For some reason, they felt the need to make almost every Bohrok-Kal power a full separate element, seems like they just did it without thinking it through. Seems like we shifted this thread to talking about how we would regroup all the sub elements, but to be totally honest if I were to redo the storyline I wouldn't even make most of them elements except for maybe electromagnetism, iron/metal, and jungle, but even then I feel like they just aren't necessary. We can start a new thread on this topic if someone wants to.

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Also, going back to that idea of an "Aether" element, it could probably just be an element that combines Gravity and Electromagnetism, since they are both two of the four fundamental forces of nature. I think that's substantial - it could leave out the two nuclear forces because I don't see how those can be used as powers.

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How about sub types of Toa? Like, you know: 

1. Fire, lightning, and plasma (all fire) 

2. Water and ice (all water) 

3. Air 

4. Earth, stone, iron, magnetism, gravity (all earth) 

5. Plant life 

6. Sonics 

7. Psionics 
8. Light 

9. Shadow 

 

It’s like Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korro when you look at it.

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To address the main idea that this topic was actually talking about, I can see why Greg & Co. did it that way - when you think of sonic powers, super sensitive hearing comes to mind intuitively. You don’t imagine being immune to sonic attack by being hard of hearing or deaf. Also, they are just Matoran: putting up sonic barriers is a Toa level power.

It does seem odd in comparison to other elements, but think about it this way: Ta-Koro was in an active volcano. You fall into lava, Ta-Matoran or not, you’re dead. The fact that these Matoran can resist heat makes them live in a dangerous place. It’s dangerous to be attacked while lava surfing. The element leads to a vulnerability, the same way Sonics leads to hearing shock. 

Or you know, the Ko-Matoran live on a Mountain and could freeze (or slip to their demise). Element occupational hazard: all elements have negatives. Some more obvious than others.

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2 hours ago, 21Boomerangs said:

To address the main idea that this topic was actually talking about, I can see why Greg & Co. did it that way - when you think of sonic powers, super sensitive hearing comes to mind intuitively. You don’t imagine being immune to sonic attack by being hard of hearing or deaf. Also, they are just Matoran: putting up sonic barriers is a Toa level power.

It does seem odd in comparison to other elements, but think about it this way: Ta-Koro was in an active volcano. You fall into lava, Ta-Matoran or not, you’re dead. The fact that these Matoran can resist heat makes them live in a dangerous place. It’s dangerous to be attacked while lava surfing. The element leads to a vulnerability, the same way Sonics leads to hearing shock. 

Or you know, the Ko-Matoran live on a Mountain and could freeze (or slip to their demise). Element occupational hazard: all elements have negatives. Some more obvious than others.

Very good point, though one could say they still got the short end of the stick, because it seems that they bring their hazard wherever they go, rather than choosing to live nearby their elemental hazard. Loud noises are much harder to avoid than an active volcano typically. :)

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17 hours ago, Iron_Man5 said:

Very good point, though one could say they still got the short end of the stick, because it seems that they bring their hazard wherever they go, rather than choosing to live nearby their elemental hazard. Loud noises are much harder to avoid than an active volcano typically. :)

It depends on where you live, actually. If you live in the country/wilderness as opposed to say, Metru Nui, you might have less odds of running into rackets. Humanity uses a LOT of loud equipment and is usually very loud in general, so if the De-Matoran were to live on earth they would be absolutely miserable. But they live in the Great Spirit Robot in a usually quiet location, so less need to worry about that. 

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22 hours ago, 21Boomerangs said:

It does seem odd in comparison to other elements, but think about it this way: Ta-Koro was in an active volcano. You fall into lava, Ta-Matoran or not, you’re dead. The fact that these Matoran can resist heat makes them live in a dangerous place. It’s dangerous to be attacked while lava surfing. The element leads to a vulnerability, the same way Sonics leads to hearing shock. 

The thing is that Ta-Matoran can actually resist heat in the first place, while De-Matoran are hurt by their own element no matter what. They have acute hearing, but what benefit is that if you don't have any protection against the dangers of sound? For survival purposes? How are you going to survive if attackers make loud noises that knock you unconscious because you're too sensitive to them? Every other Matoran group has powers that give them at least some slight physical advantage to living in their environment, like the intense heat of a volcano, the frigid cold of the mountaintops, the high heights of the trees, the depths of the ocean, that not every being can traverse. But a quiet place? Anything can show up at any moment and destroy them all. Being able to detect acute sounds while also not being sensitive to loud sounds would give them a better chance of survival, because they wouldn't be immediately stunned by the sounds attackers make. Not that they would be invincible, but they could resist louder sounds slightly better than other Matoran, while Toa of Sonics could resist far louder sounds. But from what I understand, even Toa of Sonics are sensitive to loud sounds, effectively making their own powers a hazard to themselves.

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It always struck me as similar to the Cursed Great Being - probably something designed with the intention of being a blessing that only ends up being a curse because of how distant the source of the blessing is.

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