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Wixhael

Would it be possible to combine Kanohi?

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Okay, so I had a random thought recently: Theoretically, could a mask-maker like Vakama combine two different Kanohi masks together, giving the wearer access to both power sets? I know that when Toa Kaita formed, their masks would combine, but in a scenario outside of combinations, how plausible would it be? Like say Jaller wanted to combine his Arthron and Lhikan's Hau, giving him shielding AND sonar detection. I don't know, the idea just sort of popped into my head, and I thought it would be fun to at least start the conversation.

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I don't think so. I'm only running off vague memories of old Greg Q&As about Kanoka and mask-making here, so I could be misremembering. From what I recall, Kanoka Disks can be combined to create new powers and (I assume) melted down and reforged, but if a Kanohi is damaged (and trying to melt it down/fuse it with another mask would definitely count as damage) it loses its power. The exception to this is legendary masks which, when damaged, cause their power to leak out.

There are potentially ways to do it. The Golden Kanohi the Toa Mata wore prove that Kanohi with multiple powers can exist, but I expect only Artakha knows how to do this.

As you say, Toa Kaita wear Kanohi combining 3 powers. I suppose a Toa might be able to wear a Kaita's Kanohi, although it's possible they wouldn't be able to use it and it would return to 3 separate masks when the Kaita unfused.

There are also things like the Spear of Fusion or Roodaka's mutation Rhotuka that seem to be able to merge things in ways that would otherwise be impossible, so there could easily be a way to do it.

The most common way of having access to multiple Mask powers is a Toa Suva. It's not possible to use multiple Kanohi at the same time (but even the Gold Kanohi don't allow this), but any Toa with a Suva could collect masks and have instant access to them when needed.

There are also a lot of tools, weapons etc. out there with powers, so if a Toa really wanted two Kanohi powers at once e.g. shielding and flight, they could wear a Hau and get a weapon/tool that allowed them to fly.

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11 hours ago, Danska: Shadow Master said:

I don't think so. I'm only running off vague memories of old Greg Q&As about Kanoka and mask-making here, so I could be misremembering. From what I recall, Kanoka Disks can be combined to create new powers and (I assume) melted down and reforged, but if a Kanohi is damaged (and trying to melt it down/fuse it with another mask would definitely count as damage) it loses its power. The exception to this is legendary masks which, when damaged, cause their power to leak out.

There are potentially ways to do it. The Golden Kanohi the Toa Mata wore prove that Kanohi with multiple powers can exist, but I expect only Artakha knows how to do this.

As you say, Toa Kaita wear Kanohi combining 3 powers. I suppose a Toa might be able to wear a Kaita's Kanohi, although it's possible they wouldn't be able to use it and it would return to 3 separate masks when the Kaita unfused.

There are also things like the Spear of Fusion or Roodaka's mutation Rhotuka that seem to be able to merge things in ways that would otherwise be impossible, so there could easily be a way to do it.

The most common way of having access to multiple Mask powers is a Toa Suva. It's not possible to use multiple Kanohi at the same time (but even the Gold Kanohi don't allow this), but any Toa with a Suva could collect masks and have instant access to them when needed.

There are also a lot of tools, weapons etc. out there with powers, so if a Toa really wanted two Kanohi powers at once e.g. shielding and flight, they could wear a Hau and get a weapon/tool that allowed them to fly.

Thank you so much! That makes a lot of sense!

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On 7/25/2020 at 6:07 AM, Danska: Shadow Master said:

There are potentially ways to do it. The Golden Kanohi the Toa Mata wore prove that Kanohi with multiple powers can exist, but I expect only Artakha knows how to do this.

That’s the thing— if Artakha can do it, how did he do it? Looking at the visuals of the Toa Kaita in animations, there are a lot of “circuitry” themes around them. I would like to think that once the mask is made it needs some sort of chips and hardwiring to activate powers. If you go this route, then perhaps Artakha hardwired the Golden masks to hold more than one power “program”? 

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well, in reality (meaning the real world) MOCists would cut apart masks and fuse selected elements together with some kind of adhesive (ex; epoxy or bondo), tweak the design ov the custom mask around and if they're satisfied with the overall construction/look ov the thing they then paint it! i have seen this done before and there are some pretty impressive examples out there! 

but when it comes to fusing masks together story-wise i'd say it's virtually impossible unless you're Artakha (but then how in God's name does he do it?)! yeah, Artakha is still a bit ov a mysterious figure, but i'm sure he has some logical way ov doing stuff! :) 

well there's my two cents on this matter! lol :) 

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I would imagine that in story, a Kaita’s mask would be much larger than your standard Kanohi. The size might be what allows it to exist as a mask with three separate powers, rather than the masks combining to form a new power like what happens when you combine Kanoka.

Perhaps Artakha builds the golden masks on an even bigger scale. Maybe they take dozens of Kanoka to create and they take up an entire room when they are first crafted. Perhaps they are six ultra thin shells of masks that are layered carefully inside one another before being fused. The whole thing then has to be very precisely shrunk to fit a standard Toa’s face.

 

...Artakha must have been absolutely livid when they fell in the energised protodermis.

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I remember the old bio for Makuta amused us with the idea that he was a 3 headed monster.

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No creature that speaks has seen the Makuta and returned. His lair could be in every shadow, every scrap of darkness. Some say he has three heads. Others say he can change into many forms. Only one thing is known for sure: if he is not stopped, his power and evil will grow to dominate all of Mata Nui.

The legend says the Makuta is a whirling, kicking, screaming, clawing beast. He--or IT-- could be many things at once - cobra, tiger, hawk. Each must be defeated before the Makuta emerges from deep inside the surface of Mata Nui and replicates into a vicious swarm of separate and equally deadly beasts. And if this happens, the beings of Mata Nui will know untold harm. So the legend says.


I don't know how many 3 headed, mask-wearing characters there are in Bionicle, but if there were: would they be able to wield multiple powered masks at once? Eg. a character who could shield themselves, see in the dark, and move objects with their mind would be pretty terrifying and super OP.

Imagine if Makuta did have 3 heads, and got a hold of the masks of Life, Time and Creation. Bionicle version of Marvel's Infinity Gauntlet right there!


PM me if you have a White Huna :huna: and/or Yellow Ruru :ruru: I'm willing to pay if you're willing to sell! If not, PM me anyway, I'm very curious about where they came from! :howdy:

 

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1 hour ago, chuckschwa said:

I remember the old bio for Makuta amused us with the idea that he was a 3 headed monster.


I don't know how many 3 headed, mask-wearing characters there are in Bionicle, but if there were: would they be able to wield multiple powered masks at once? Eg. a character who could shield themselves, see in the dark, and move objects with their mind would be pretty terrifying and super OP.

Imagine if Makuta did have 3 heads, and got a hold of the masks of Life, Time and Creation. Bionicle version of Marvel's Infinity Gauntlet right there!

They could wear the masks with 3 heads, but I doubt they could use it. To use the mask, you need focus, like when the toa metru were first learning their masks. Wearing is one thing, but to focus and independently use three powers is a bit much, like trying watch and understand 3 movies that are playing at once. At the very least, I doubt they could use legendary masks, and they'd probably barely be able to use or understand any given power.

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On 8/28/2020 at 3:14 PM, Alyska said:

...Artakha must have been absolutely livid when they fell in the energised protodermis.

That's hilarious XD

On 7/25/2020 at 3:07 AM, Danska: Shadow Master said:

I expect only Artakha knows how to do this.

Ok, my memory of the mask of creation is a but rusty, but could that information have come from the mask? I vaguely remember Matoro being able to access the consciousness of the Ignika when he put it on, perhaps there are certain "blueprints" that are revealed to whoever wears the mask of creation? (and yes, equating all the legendary masks to the Ignika is a whole other debate, but I'm talking on a much smaller scale) 

6 hours ago, ToaDume said:

Wearing is one thing, but to focus and independently use three powers is a bit much, like trying watch and understand 3 movies that are playing at once.

Ah, but maybe thrice the heads heads=thrice the consciousness! In the case of Makuta (which can shapeshift into a three-headed creature presumably), it probably wouldn't work. But what if there was a creature that had three heads, each with its own consciousness? (like a goofy, cartoony three-headed-dragon, but not cartoony or goofy lol)The heads would need to share a strong connection in order to function (possibly Psionic?), and all this to say they would still need to be able to wear kanohi. 

I feel like some sort of fusion of three toa could also be a possibility-some sort of experiment gone wrong or something... (The Shadowed One has the employment papers all drawn up :lol:)


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8 hours ago, MoarBotar said:

 

Ok, my memory of the mask of creation is a but rusty, but could that information have come from the mask? I vaguely remember Matoro being able to access the consciousness of the Ignika when he put it on, perhaps there are certain "blueprints" that are revealed to whoever wears the mask of creation? (and yes, equating all the legendary masks to the Ignika is a whole other debate, but I'm talking on a much smaller scale) 

Ah, but maybe thrice the heads heads=thrice the consciousness! In the case of Makuta (which can shapeshift into a three-headed creature presumably), it probably wouldn't work. But what if there was a creature that had three heads, each with its own consciousness? (like a goofy, cartoony three-headed-dragon, but not cartoony or goofy lol)The heads would need to share a strong connection in order to function (possibly Psionic?), and all this to say they would still need to be able to wear kanohi. 

It was never directly stated. Although maybe that information might be in am obscure interview. My knowledge on it is limited to saying that the mask gives the user the instructions to make anything they can imagine. So as long as artahka can imagine it, the mask googles instructions for it I think.

 

This is a really interesting topic for me, since I like bionicle (obviously) but also have an interest in biology. As long as it had 3 separate fully formed brains, I think it would be possible. How long it could live is a different story. Most real world things with two heads dont live long. Where there are actual two headed snakes in the world. They usually die when one steals the others food and starves it, or when one head kills the other. I know bionicle is different than real world by a long shot, but my point is that it would have to be a sapient species (rules out rahi) with enough focus and power to use a mask (which rules out things like matoran), with little to no aggression (no 3 headed pirakas!). I think this is a tough set of categories to fill, but as long as those three categories passed, I think it would be fine and they could use the 3 masks at once. 

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I've always been curious how Makuta/Dume knew the blueprints to the Vahi and knew how to put them in a readable enough format that Matoran Vakama could figure it out. Perhaps something he stole from Artahka at one point or another? I suppose on the topic of forging difficult things, could Artahka use the Mask of Creation to tell him how to make more Masks of Creation, if he wanted? That might be a bit like wishing for more wishes from a genie, I suppose. I also thought the Kaita masks were not forged by hand - that they were, like the bodies of the Kaita, simply merged versions of the masks. This would make me think the idea someone else was on about - the Spear of Fusion and Roodaka's spinner - could make Kanohi with multiple powers because they merge things together. The Spear of Fusion can do a lot of weird stuff, thinking about it. Some very creative MOC ideas right there. 

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WELL HOLD THE PHONE! 

I just happened to stumble on something from the Official Greg Discussion archives-I was looking for something else entirely-and take a look at this:

Question: "just a couple questions for you [Greg]. 1. can you mold a mask into the shape of a piece of armor? 1.b. if yes, if you put the armor molded mask on as armor, would it still give you powers? 2. can you take two halves of a different mask and receive a new kanohi no power, new power, or a fusion of two powers? That is all, and thank you for your time."

Answer: "1) Yes, but you wouldn't be able to use it as a mask then. It needs to be on your face for you to be able to use it. 2) To achieve a new power by combining two masks, you need to melt both masks down and make a third from them. You can't just stick two halves together."

SO! It seems that, at least according to Greg, that Kanohi with multiple powers ARE possible! So long as it sits on your face, you're good to go! 

EDIT: here's the link by the way: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2010-2011/page1#post6

Edited by MoarBotar

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5 minutes ago, MoarBotar said:

WELL HOLD THE PHONE! 

I just happened to stumble on something from the Official Greg Discussion archives-I was looking for something else entirely-and take a look at this:

Question: "just a couple questions for you [Greg]. 1. can you mold a mask into the shape of a piece of armor? 1.b. if yes, if you put the armor molded mask on as armor, would it still give you powers? 2. can you take two halves of a different mask and receive a new kanohi no power, new power, or a fusion of two powers? That is all, and thank you for your time."

Answer: "1) Yes, but you wouldn't be able to use it as a mask then. It needs to be on your face for you to be able to use it. 2) To achieve a new power by combining two masks, you need to melt both masks down and make a third from them. You can't just stick two halves together."

SO! It seems that, at least according to Greg, that Kanohi with multiple powers ARE possible! So long as it sits on your face, you're good to go! 

well congrats on your discovery, ace! the mystery has finally been solved thanks to you! now we all can die happily! lol :D 

no but seriously, if Greg knows all the answers ask him! if he chooses not to answer said questions that's his problem! :) 

also, i have a follow-up question to this topic; if a Toa's Great Kanohi (for example; the Great Kau Kau) for some reason get's broken somehow (rendering the respective Toa useless/powerless), while the respective Toa is "out ov commission", can that Toa's Great Kanohi be; 1. fused back together leaving some imperfections and the powers be somewhat screwy, or 2. re-made from scratch but still retain the same shape/design and powers/usage as the original? just asking! :) 

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3 hours ago, MoarBotar said:

 2) To achieve a new power by combining two masks, you need to melt both masks down and make a third from them. You can't just stick two halves together."

While this is technically combining masks, I dont think is done in the way OP wanted. The answer never actually said the new mask would have two powers, just that the combination would give a new power. I think this is like how each mask is made from a different kanoka are used to make one mask. So, for instance how the akaku gives the user X-Ray Vision  it's made from kanoka of Regeneration and Teleportation. The akaku doesnt give the user the powers of Regeneration or teleportation. I suspect that melting masks down dont combine powers, just give a new one. So theoretically melting down a mask of regeneration and a mask of teleportation would make an akaku, which seems like a waste of two finished masks I think. I still dont think it's possible to give a single mask two powers at once, where even the golden mata masks just cycled through powers to use one at a time, it never actually gave the user all powers at once.

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On 9/19/2020 at 9:04 PM, ToaDume said:

The answer never actually said the new mask would have two powers, just that the combination would give a new power.

Yeah now that I take a closer look at it, you're right he never said that the mask would have 2 powers. 

But now that I took that second look, it seems to me that this does have some interesting potential. Greg says "to achieve a new power by combining two masks..." Based on the context this does seem to imply new mask powers; as in "otherwise unattainable" mask powers. I think your example is sound for all Kanoka-based masks, but many masks are (as far as we know) not Kanoka-based (i.e. Avsa, Tryna, Garai, Olisi, Olmak, etc). In the case of these unique masks, I think it would be reasonable to assume that new mask powers could be created (some of which might function like multiple mask powers, such as the Mask of Light and Shadow, which is one power that functions like two), which creates some interesting possibilities (i.e. Rode+Mask of Charisma=Mask of... Leadership? Calix+Mask of Possibilities=Mask of... Reality? ). 

Additionally, combining Kanoka-based masks could make it possible to come up with new combinations. For example, if you combined a Hau and a Komau, you aren't combining two discs, but actually 5. 

Too bad, but still interesting :) 


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6 hours ago, MoarBotar said:

Yeah now that I take a closer look at it, you're right he never said that the mask would have 2 powers. 

But now that I took that second look, it seems to me that this does have some interesting potential. Greg says "to achieve a new power by combining two masks..." Based on the context this does seem to imply new mask powers; as in "otherwise unattainable" mask powers. I think your example is sound for all Kanoka-based masks, but many masks are (as far as we know) not Kanoka-based (i.e. Avsa, Tryna, Garai, Olisi, Olmak, etc). In the case of these unique masks, I think it would be reasonable to assume that new mask powers could be created (some of which might function like multiple mask powers, such as the Mask of Light and Shadow, which is one power that functions like two), which creates some interesting possibilities (i.e. Rode+Mask of Charisma=Mask of... Leadership? Calix+Mask of Possibilities=Mask of... Reality? ). 

Additionally, combining Kanoka-based masks could make it possible to come up with new combinations. For example, if you combined a Hau and a Komau, you aren't combining two discs, but actually 5. 

Too bad, but still interesting :) 

Those are some interesting sounding examples. It certainly might be possible to combine masks just see what effect you get. I'm sure some make sense like your mask of leadership idea, but I can also see completely random masks appearing with chaotic abilities by complete accident (like vakama creating the mask of time, or an accidental mask that creates nova blasts and blows up the user). Either way, I think mask merging should only be done by professionals like artahkha who can probably guess what mask theyll get, and should be avoided by more novice mask makers like say nuhrii.

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On 9/22/2020 at 12:35 AM, ToaDume said:

I can also see completely random masks appearing with chaotic abilities by complete accident (like vakama creating the mask of time, or an accidental mask that creates nova blasts and blows up the user)

This is almost more interesting to me. I could see Dark Hunters or Makuta planting volatile masks in Suvas as an act of sabotage. It would have been crazy if Makuta had "hid" a bunch of these for the Toa Mata to find way back in the day... 

I wonder if there is a potential here for new Legendary-level masks to be created? Or even a more developed system of categorizing masks? (sure there are a bunch of Great level Kanohi, but I wouldn't put the Mask of Elemental Energy and the Ruru on the same level as the Aki or the Olmak, personally) 


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2 hours ago, MoarBotar said:

This is almost more interesting to me. I could see Dark Hunters or Makuta planting volatile masks in Suvas as an act of sabotage. It would have been crazy if Makuta had "hid" a bunch of these for the Toa Mata to find way back in the day... 

Huh, never thought of that possibility. I think the makuta would be too proud to use a trick like that. But I think the dark hunters would have no issues with it. I can definitely imagine Lariska in particular planting a fake crazy mask as a trap. For instance, if a toa was searching for a specific mask, leave a cursed or trapped mask that looks like it and swap it. Sounds very Lariska like to me since she seemed to plan out the perfect way to kill any being. She would probably even do a perfect job fighting just hard enough to make the toa think she was really keeping them from the mask, when in actuality she wanted them to get it.

 

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Alternatively, masks that activate a power once, but can’t be deactivated ( perhaps with some magnetic or fusion based enhancement so they can’t be pulled off by the wearer)

Mask of underwater breathing? Welcome to your new life in the ocean.

Mask of Levitation? Ever wanted to visit outer space? 

Mask of  Mind control? Good luck controlling your own body ever again when every movement you try to make gets sent to someone else. Also, everyone hates you now.

Mask of Concealment... just ask Jerbraz.


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Vakama’s thoughts in Time Trap reveal that in non-Legendary Kanohi, a mere crack totally ruins a mask. Its power would be unusable, and it wouldn’t provide its wearer with energy, assuming they’re of a species that depends on Kanohi for it. So why would melting a mask preserve these properties? It’s kind of like saying if you melt a floppy disc, but then cool it in the exact same shape, it would still contain the data that was originally on it.


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