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Sir Kohran

Bohrok Episodes - Why The Unresolved Cliffhangers?

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When watching the Bohrok episodes, a little pattern becomes apparent.The second Po-Koro episode has Pohatu retrieving Hafu from the Tahnok, who are seen advancing on the village, then...snap to black.The Onu-Koro episode has Onepu, Taipu and Nuparu breaking out with the new Boxor and encountering the Gahlok. Nuparu names his new invention, they assume an aggressive stance, then...another snap to black.The Le-Koro episode has Kongu and Tamaru drawing the Nuhvok and Krana'd Le-Matoran out of the jungle, where they're ambushed by the other free Matoran. We see the Boxors advancing, then...yet another snap to black.The climactic Ga-Koro episodes provide the only complete narrative. Why do the others all shy away from a proper conclusion?It's a little disappointing, considering how complete the MNOLG cutscenes were.

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I think it's a combination of factors, some limits, some excellent ideas (IMO):1) Budget.2) Possibly bandwidth of computers at the time to handle complex battle scenes. (Maybe not though.)3) Because the ending was in sight; this is a very intentional stylistic choice often advised for modern fiction, because once the reader (viewer in this case) is pretty sure how a section working towards a climax (instead of an all-out climax) is going to end, if you go out of your way to show it the reader can zone out. The only reason to continue much is to challenge the reader's assumptions, and in these cases what the reader is concluding (that the good guys will win those scuffles) is what LEGO wanted them to. (But then when it comes time for an arc climax readers tend to want to see payoff.)Personally I loved that aspect of it; build to the tension and snapaway. It can make that moment of turning the tide stand out more and was a distinctive Bionicle style at the time.[Edit: 4) It also helps clue the reader in that the arc is not done; if you give a climax too early readers feel that continuing it drags it out.]5) And most importantly, to feel like "setup for roleplaying" for kids at the time. Nowadays in looking back on them as archives that value is not important, but at the time the purpose was to help get kids to buy the sets and want to play with them. Leaving the end undefined provide those vaulted "gaps" for fans' imaginations to run wild in. :)

Edited by bonesiii

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1) Budget.

There's nothing in them that hadn't been done already in the MNOLG. I don't see why they'd cost any more to make.

2) Possibly bandwidth of computers at the time to handle complex battle scenes.

The Kini-Nui battle/Manas fight and Makuta confrontation/Bohrok awakening cutscenes are quite long and feature battle scenes.

3) Because the ending was in sight; this is a very intentional stylistic choice often advised for modern fiction, because once the reader is pretty sure how a section working towards a climax (instead of an all-out climax) is going to end,

Was the ending in sight when Po-Koro was surrounded by Tahnok? Or when three Matoran with one fighting machine were facing a whole swarm of Gahlok?To this day I have no idea how these situations were resolved.

Personally I loved that aspect of it; build to the tension and snapaway.

I can't see the appeal of this. Would you love it if we built to Gandalf about to face the Balrog, then suddenly snapped forward to the Fellowship grieving for him outside?

5) And most importantly, to feel like "setup for roleplaying" for kids at the time. Nowadays in looking back on them as archives that value is not important, but at the time the purpose was to help get kids to buy the sets and want to play with them. Leaving the end undefined provide those vaulted "gaps" for fans' imaginations to run wild in.

Sounds reasonable enough by itself, but then why did the MNOLG show events in such completeness? Edited by Sir Kohran

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Was the ending in sight when Po-Koro was surrounded by Tahnok? Or when three Matoran with one fighting machine were facing a whole swarm of Gahlok?To this day I have no idea how these situations were resolved.

The main thrust of the Po-Koro stuff was preventing the Tahnok from getting to the villagers, and the story showed how they got safely secured behind their wall. After that point, Pohatu would have helped de-krana the Bohrok, probably with Matoran throwing disks as well.I don't recall if the Boxor was facing an entire swarm, but if it was just a small group, the Boxor would fight its way to freedom, again de-krana-ing the Bohrok, by punching. [Edit: Also, it was in a confined cave space, so even if it was a large group, they couldn't necessarily crowd around the Boxor, and it might have been able to whittle down even a whole swarm.]But again, you having no idea is kinda the point, isn't it? That way you are free to roleplay it however you wish. It's a challenge to you, the fan, to use your imagination, like most things about LEGO. ^_^

Would you love it if we built to Gandalf about to face the Balrog, then suddenly snapped forward to the Fellowship grieving

Gandalf facing the Balrog doesn't really count as this, because the audience's assumption that he will survive hasn't yet been challenged. Also what I was talking about probably applies better to implied wins, not losses, as modern fiction does place heavy emphasis on strong emotion, and grief is definately one of those. Also, Tolkien was writing before this modern style had really developed (as many have commented; I'd refer you to some of the producer's commentary and special features on the LOTR DVDs for example).And not every story's style has to be a clone of Tolkien's. He was the master at his style, and it's not the only valid style. Certainly I think we all agree LEGO was not going for Tolkienesque style here; there was a more lighthearted tone to these stories, though it definately did have serious overtones and suspense and the like. In other words it was fun videos of battle toys facing off. :)Anyways, if you didn't love it, that's fine -- different tastes and such. ^_^ I liked it.[Edit: Actually yanno, that could have been very cool, although not Tolkien's style really. Show a grand faceoff, and then snap to grieving, so the reader knows the character died, but their imaginations are left free to run wild and experience mysterious horror at what happened. LOST has done some similar things, but not quite that blatant. If done right it could actually be very powerful.Like how Greg commented that he wasn't going to reveal Krahka's true appearance; that what fans can imagine is far more horrifying than what he could show. It would also mimic what real psychology often does to us, that we would know something horrible happened but -- or rather therefore -- try to block it out because it was that bad.]

Sounds reasonable enough by itself, but then why did the MNOLG show events in such completeness?

Well MNOG was a complete game, and 2002 marked a turn away from doing that kind of thing. The webisodes moved towards a lesser style. Again, I didn't mind that -- but lemme be clear, I strongly wish they would have at least continued that or again done MNOG-style games. As a trend towards no MNOG-style at all, I agree it was unfortunate. Edited by bonesiii

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The main thrust of the Po-Koro stuff was preventing the Tahnok from getting to the villagers, and the story showed how they got safely secured behind their wall.

Couldn't the Tahnok just fly over the wall with the Krana Vu?

After that point, Pohatu would have helped de-krana the Bohrok, probably with Matoran throwing disks as well.

This is conjecture on your part, nothing in the episode indicates that this was what happened.The episode even ends with Pohatu asking "now what?", emphasising the hopelessness of the situation, rather than any sense of relief.

I don't recall if the Boxor was facing an entire swarm, but if it was just a small group,

The intro shows four all at once, and there were probably others. I doubt the Onu-Matoran would abandon their home for any small number of enemies.

Also, it was in a confined cave space, so even if it was a large group, they couldn't necessarily crowd around the Boxor, and it might have been able to whittle down even a whole swarm.

Isn't it the big Onu-Koro cavern that they break out into?And if it was a confined space, couldn't the Gahlok just flood it and drown them?

But again, you having no idea is kinda the point, isn't it?

Surely the point of a story is to tell the listener/viewer/reader something. Leaving them with no idea of how it ends defeats that point, in my opinion.

Certainly I think we all agree LEGO was not going for Tolkienesque style here; there was a more lighthearted tone to these stories, though it definately did have serious overtones and suspense and the like. In other words it was fun videos of battle toys facing off.

I do feel the lack of real fear and action damaged the story's atmosphere, which in 2001 actually had been Tolkienesque to some extent.When the heroes encountered evil in 2001, it was with a real sense of danger and menace. Think of Infected Lewa grabbing his head screaming "Get out of my mind!", before his eyes glaze over poisonously with that eerie sound effect, then ruthlessly attacking Onua, his former friend. Or the Muaka catching Matoro by surprise in the open, letting out a huge roar, and swiping him into the snowdrift. Or Makuta narrowing his eyes, stating "I am destruction. And I WILL destroy you" before morphing into a mass of huge black tentacles, and smacking the mighty Toa around like bowling pins.I can't think of anything from the Bohrok episodes that captured that level of peril. They seem so tame by comparison.

Show a grand faceoff, and then snap to grieving, so the reader knows the character died, but their imaginations are left free to run wild and experience mysterious horror at what happened.

It might work once, but not repeatedly, as was the case with these episodes.

Well MNOG was a complete game, and 2002 marked a turn away from doing that kind of thing. The webisodes moved towards a lesser style. Again, I didn't mind that -- but lemme be clear, I strongly wish they would have at least continued that or again done MNOG-style games. As a trend towards no MNOG-style at all, I agree it was unfortunate.

I recall you once saying you didn't like the MNOLG II due to its small amount of real story, is that correct?

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Isn't it the big Onu-Koro cavern that they break out into?

You could be right about that; it would seem easier to go that way than the way of the cave-in. And we know the Bohrok were on that side, otherwise why flee the way they did, right? But it's also possible that by that time some Gahlok had tunneled through another way. It does make more sense the Matoran would try to flee the same direction as the rest, not go back the way they knew the enemies were.In general, Kohran, my advice is to try to think of positive possibilities. You are adept at inventing challenges, but you seem not to apply this inventiveness towards positively answering your questions. I enjoy these sorts of discussions, but the real lesson you should probably be learning is that you can have the power to answer your own questions, using both positive and negative. :)So let me try this approach, instead our usual back and forth, for now -- instead of saying you "can't see it" or whatnot, answer questions for me. Let's start just with Pohatu.1) Put yourself in Pohatu's shoes when facing off against the Bohrok. Remember you have a comic streak since you're Pohatu, so you're apt to make the obvious observation, but like all the Toa you are committed to protecting your village (this isn't your ultimate purpose as far as you know, but you're a hero). What do you do?Throw scenarios of what the Bohrok might do at yourself. What do you do in each case?

I can't think of anything from the Bohrok episodes that captured that level of peril.

No argument there; MNOG was tops IMO. Few things period compete with it, some including (obviously IMO) the giant robot fight and the reign of Teridax.I think what you're trying to drive at, as I implied above, was that LEGO was moving away from the MNOG style and you dislike that. Well, I dislike it too and I think most people agree. I don't know why they made that particular choice, although having made one complex fan game myself I know it can be very draining and I haven't had much desire afterwards to try to compete with it again. Sometimes when you make a masterpiece you feel it should stand on its own and you should move on. :) Still, I think they could have done it, and should have.What I didn't like about the MNOGII was its huge emphasis on chores. Save chores for real life, IMO. Of course I had some chores in my own fan game so I'm one to talk lol. (But MNOGII seemed like all chores. The one redeeming factor was the great art.) Not so much that there was little story, although that's true too -- but that you had to work so ridiculously much to get to it (and then there wasn't much payoff).Actually, something similar is a real criticism many people have made of Tolkien, since he was brought up here, in LOTR, and when I was younger I identified with that, tried to get through it, couldn't. Later when I have had more free time I have enjoyed that, but the comparison ends here because in LOTR you can skim, unlike MNOGII. Edited by bonesiii

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Isn't it the big Onu-Koro cavern that they break out into?

You could be right about that; it would seem easier to go that way than the way of the cave-in. And we know the Bohrok were on that side, otherwise why flee the way they did, right? But it's also possible that by that time some Gahlok had tunneled through another way. It does make more sense the Matoran would try to flee the same direction as the rest, not go back the way they knew the enemies were.
actually, they were blocked in by BOTH sides, so taipu and onepu were trying to uncover the cave in on the path the other matoran escaped by, while nuparu insisted on making his boxor, which they let him do. I tihkn that nuparu must have convinced them that if they went the way the other matoran did, then it would be a larger cave-in. but on the othr hand, the other way back to the main cavern was only a few rocks away (taipu was lifting the final boulder that would seal it off when the flood came, and he rushed inside and it fell, so there is only a small layer of rock between them and the main cavern, which would have multiple exits, which is a far more logical route than digging through an unknown (probably larger) amount of rock.and with nuparu's new fighting machine flanked by the leader of the ussalry and (probably) the strongest miner in onu-koro, I'm sure they could fight their way through to another exit, and of course they don't have to ( and probably aren't) fighting a whole swarm; the rest would scatter to flood other areas (probably in squads, hence only four in the area when they come out)

I can't think of anything from the Bohrok episodes that captured that level of peril.

No argument there; MNOG was tops IMO. Few things period compete with it, some including (obviously IMO) the giant robot fight and the reign of Teridax.I think what you're trying to drive at, as I implied above, was that LEGO was moving away from the MNOG style and you dislike that. Well, I dislike it too and I think most people agree. I don't know why they made that particular choice, although having made one complex fan game myself I know it can be very draining and I haven't had much desire afterwards to try to compete with it again. Sometimes when you make a masterpiece you feel it should stand on its own and you should move on. :) Still, I think they could have done it, and should have.
another possible reason the bohrok might have not had the terror feel on you might be becauseThe bohrok aren't directly fighting the matoran, they are jsut trying to clean it all, and the matoran are just in the way, so they don't really target them unless they are trying to stop, delay, or destroy them.Sorry for unorganized thoughts Edited by Bulik

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I tihkn that nuparu must have convinced them that if they went the way the other matoran did, then it would be a larger cave-in.

Yeah, I was kinda thinking the same thing. Back the way they went would just be moving the big rock Taipu had set down. Probably the only reason they didn't do it earlier was for fear of the Bohrok.What about the water, though? I suppose that could have been only to help the swarm move and would soak downwards once they were gone. In that case, we should conclude, I think, that the main swarm passed through, having leveled the village. We know Bohrok don't think of villages as anything different from the rest; it's just all to be cleaned, and they were moving earlier, so it makes the most sense that they kept moving.Even without the water evidence, that makes more sense; that the swarm kept moving, so by the time Taipu and co. came out they weren't facing the big group.And yeah, the Matoran wouldn't have had to fight much at all, really, just clear a path to flee.

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You could be right about that; it would seem easier to go that way

Actually it's definitely the Onu-Koro cavern, because just before they emerge, there's a brief shot of three submerged huts.

the way of the cave-in.

What caused the cave-in? Onepu mentions that 'the tunnel collapsed' but doesn't elaborate beyond that.What definitely occurs is: most of the Onu-Matoran have just finished fleeing into a tunnel leading out of Onu-Koro. Onepu and Taipu see the approaching waves and Nuparu getting caught up in them. Onepu and his crab just manage to enter the escape tunnel, taking Taipu with them, and his boulder falling and blocking the hole behind them.How the tunnel collapsed, and how Nuparu and the inactive Gahlok end up in the tunnel with them, is unclear.

In general, Kohran, my advice is to try to think of positive possibilities. You are adept at inventing challenges, but you seem not to apply this inventiveness towards positively answering your questions. I enjoy these sorts of discussions, but the real lesson you should probably be learning is that you can have the power to answer your own questions, using both positive and negative.

I'm not the one telling the story. I don't see why it's up to me to answer questions as basic as 'how did the good guys win or even survive?'Part of the problem may be that the Matoran/Bohrok conflict seems completely implausible. I don't see how a relatively small population of diminutive people with no heavy firepower could even begin to challenge vast hordes of creatures with larger bodies, greater strength and agility, and elemental powers. You might as well pit toddlers against wrestlers with flamethrowers.

1) Put yourself in Pohatu's shoes when facing off against the Bohrok. Remember you have a comic streak since you're Pohatu, so you're apt to make the obvious observation, but like all the Toa you are committed to protecting your village (this isn't your ultimate purpose as far as you know, but you're a hero). What do you do?

I'd use my Huna to slip past the Tahnok, find a mountain or rock formation, uproot it and take it back to the village, switch my Miru on, carry it above the massed Tahnok, then let it go. Simple. :winner:

What I didn't like about the MNOGII was its huge emphasis on chores. Save chores for real life, IMO. Of course I had some chores in my own fan game so I'm one to talk lol. (But MNOGII seemed like all chores. The one redeeming factor was the great art.) Not so much that there was little story, although that's true too -- but that you had to work so ridiculously much to get to it (and then there wasn't much payoff).

What I didn't like about it was the lack of any real plot, the poorly written dialogue, the bland and sometimes claustrophobic-looking environments, and the unbelievably tedious Kolhii stuff.The whole thing was devoid of any atmosphere or emotion.

Even without the water evidence, that makes more sense; that the swarm kept moving, so by the time Taipu and co. came out they weren't facing the big group.And yeah, the Matoran wouldn't have had to fight much at all, really, just clear a path to flee.

I'm afraid this isn't consistent with Takua's summary of events (that were published on Bionicle.com in correspondence with the episodes).Check it out."Boxor" Drives Gahlok Swarm from CityBy TakuaAfter a vicious squad of Water Bohrok flooded Onu-Koro recently, a Matoran named Nuparu made an important discovery that may turn the tide against the Bohrok menace.Nuparu, a tunnel engineer from Onu-Koro, constructed a vehicle called the Boxor that uses a swift punching motion to knock a Bohrok's Krana loose. The Onu-Matoran made the discovery when he came across a Krana-less Gahlok while trapped with Onepu and Taipu in an evacuated part of Onu-Koro. Once Nuparu realized that the Bohrok were simply transports for the Krana, he used his knowledge to give the Matoran an advantage. After constructing the Boxor, he beat back the aggressive Gahlok swarm, driving them out of the underground city and stopping the flood.Onu-Matoran were delighted to return to their homes safely. "Finally we have a defense against these monsters," Onepu said. "Maybe now we can rid Mata Nui of the Bohrok and go back to more peaceful times."

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Actually it's definitely the Onu-Koro cavern, because just before they emerge, there's a brief shot of three submerged huts.

he beat back the aggressive Gahlok swarm, driving them out of the underground city and stopping the flood.

Alright, I will admit this does sound like a stretch. If the whole swarm was there it's hard to imagine why they couldn't just continue to flood the cavern, making this pesky fighter and his two companions unable to breathe.I suppose the answer may be that they knew these were their brothers, and were not out to kill, just clean, and the Matoran were just in the way. Still, Bohrok clearly fight living beings who oppose them at times (kinda like the Borg in Star Trek), so I can see where your problem with it is coming from.Let's assume for now that the Bohrok actively wish to avoid murdering, instead wishing to capture and Krana -- which makes sense given instances of it like Le-Koro, Lewa, and briefly Tahu. So it may simply be that they underestimated or were confused by this new machine, and seeing some of their brethren falling quickly, the others may have fled, unsure how serious a threat it was.After that point, the Matoran could use the Gahlok they'd just de-Kranaed to build more Boxor, cleared the collapsed tunnel, called the others back, and the others could help as well, as the swarm calculated the threat of one Boxor as defeatable, turned back to fight, and now found itself facing more.This is about the only explanation I can think of, and it would also explain how they ended up with so many Boxor later. Another possibility is they were slower to arrive than it seems (not actively targeting the village, after all), and then the confined tunnel factor would play a role, as the Boxor would quickly fight its way to the tunnel they were coming in from and stand in its entry.The narrow tunnel factor could also play a role if the swarm did flee and then come back.It would probably not if the whole swarm was already in the cavern and did not flee, though -- in that case it's difficult to see how the Matoran would win. So this fact alone is good evidence that one of the above alternatives took place instead -- or maybe that the Matoran just fought really hard and avoided Krana-tosses.

Part of the problem may be that the Matoran/Bohrok conflict seems completely implausible. I don't see how a relatively small population of diminutive people with no heavy firepower could even begin to challenge vast hordes of creatures with larger bodies, greater strength and agility, and elemental powers. You might as well pit toddlers against wrestlers with flamethrowers.

Well, that's obviously intentional and a big part of why 2002 was so popular -- it's often said a story is made by its antagonists, and these felt unstoppable. (Plus so paradoxically cute lol!)The big problem is the elemental powers. Superior strength and size was handled by the Boxor.It's quite possible that the fact that the Boxor were made of elementally-powered beings enabled them to absorb the powers used against them; perhaps something along these lines should have been used in-story. We do know the powers come from the Bohrok, not the Krana. But even without something like that, I think again the fact that the Bohrok don't want to kill but want to enslave (for help cleaning) can partially explain this. They wouldn't use their elements enough to utterly defeat the Matoran, and simply continue underestimating the factor of strength.

How the tunnel collapsed, and how Nuparu and the inactive Gahlok end up in the tunnel with them, is unclear.

As for the later, all kinds of explanations are possible; I always interpreted it as either it was a scout that the Matoran had previously disabled (would help explain how they knew the swarm was coming), or that it had just chased them into the tunnel as Taipu threw down the rock and collided with the rock or the cave-in, knocking its braincase open and the Krana falling out.The fact that no Krana is shown (if I recall correctly and probably don't lol) would hint towards the former probably.As for the tunnel, my answer is to ask a more basic question -- since we know the Gahlok weren't really attacking the village like villains, but were supposed to be cleaning the island, what were they even doing underground to begin with?And the answer goes back to what I said about their task being mainly to weaken the solidity of the island, not to literally clear off everything before the robot stood up. So the Gahlok were weakening the earth. Thus, the cave-in probably happened because the Gahlok were succeeding at that -- water had been seeping into the area already and been turning hard-packed earth into mud to some extent.It could also be that there was a structural weakness there already and tremors from the Gahlok's flooding nearby simply were the straw the broke the camel's proverbial back.

I don't see why it's up to me

Because LEGO is about imagination. :) And Greg has always said the story is intended to require work to understand. And it's simply good mental exercise. :)But I'm glad anyways you made the topic, this has been fun and enlightening so far. ^_^

I'd use my Huna to slip past the Tahnok, find a mountain or rock formation, uproot it and take it back to the village, switch my Miru on, carry it above the massed Tahnok, then let it go. Simple.

Nice one!Here's another possibility -- thicken the wall greatly, or alter its substance so it'll take a longer time to burn through. And then make something like stone stairs over the back wall so the Matoran can escape. Something like this probably did happen, because later the Po-Matoran show up at Ga-Koro, having evacuated.At this point I think we should go to BS01 for further insight:

When the Bohrok first awoke, a swarm of Pahrak attacked the village. Pohatu soon arrived, however, and began fending off the swarm, managing to remove several of the creatures' Krana. However, before that swarm had been vanquished, a horde of Lehvak also arrived, and the Toa of Stone was forced to combat them as well. Eventually, these swarms fell back, and Pohatu left the village, but at some later point Tahnok attacked Po-Koro. In an attempt to defend the village, Hafu knocked over his own statues on the Path of Prophecies as a barrier. However, in doing so Hafu trapped himself outside. Pohatu came to the scene, grabbed Hafu, and used his Komau to make Hewkii kick a rock down toward them. This created a catapult effect when it collided with the boulder they were standing on, launching them back into the village. Nevertheless, Po-Koro was besieged by more Tahnok, forcing the Po-Matoran to evacuate to Ga-Koro. After the defeat of the Bohrok, the Matoran returned and the swarms helped to rebuild Po-Koro.

I think this implies strongly that the Bohrok put a high priority on "cleaning" (meaning weakening stone structures) in this area, which makes sense as stone would be the major problem for the giant robot. They had been trying again and again; Pohatu fought off some swarms already, but they just kept coming, and he would be running out of elemental energy.So it appears the Tahnok succeeded in leveling Po-Koro, and later the Bohrok rebuilt the village. Thus the struggle in the movie was about immediate survival, granting time while the walls slowed them down, probably with some fighting as I described above, while the Matoran also evacced out the back. Once they were safely out, Pohatu and the rest stopped defending the village and fled, while the Bohrok destroyed it.Incidently this probably means Pohatu was already too weakened to do something like the mountain route or if he did the Bohrok would just keep trying until he was.

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After that point, the Matoran could use the Gahlok they'd just de-Kranaed to build more Boxor, cleared the collapsed tunnel, called the others back, and the others could help as well, as the swarm calculated the threat of one Boxor as defeatable, turned back to fight, and now found itself facing more.

Again I don't think this is consistent with Takua's report. It specifically credits Nuparu with the victory ("HE beat back..."), and the other Onu-Matoran are described as returning "safely", which appears to preclude their involvement in a risky fight.And I don't see how three Matoran could've constructed multiple Boxors, cleared a cave-in, located the others, and convinced them to return, all in the period of time it'd take for the Bohrok to analyse one machine.

Well, that's obviously intentional and a big part of why 2002 was so popular -- it's often said a story is made by its antagonists, and these felt unstoppable.

They did, and it's that fact that makes the Matoran victories against them difficult to comprehend, especially when we don't see how they come about (the reason I made this topic to begin with).

It's quite possible that the fact that the Boxor were made of elementally-powered beings enabled them to absorb the powers used against them; perhaps something along these lines should have been used in-story.

If Bohrok parts could absorb elemental powers, wouldn't this make the Bohrok invulnerable against the Toa's powers?Which is impossible anyway, as Mask of Light shows several Bohrok that were frozen by Kopaka.

I think again the fact that the Bohrok don't want to kill but want to enslave (for help cleaning) can partially explain this.

I can't see why many thousands of mighty Bohrok would bother enslaving some hundreds of Matoran with tiny bodies and no powers. What real benefit would they provide?

But I'm glad anyways you made the topic, this has been fun and enlightening so far.

Definitely.

When the Bohrok first awoke, a swarm of Pahrak attacked the village. Pohatu soon arrived, however, and began fending off the swarm, managing to remove several of the creatures' Krana. However, before that swarm had been vanquished, a horde of Lehvak also arrived, and the Toa of Stone was forced to combat them as well. Eventually, these swarms fell back, and Pohatu left the village, but at some later point Tahnok attacked Po-Koro.

Pohatu fought off some swarms already, but they just kept coming, and he would be running out of elemental energy.

The Pahrak/Lehvak attack is taken from CA Hapka's Bionicle Chronicles books. They are consistent with the dialogue and events of the comics, but she seems completely unaware of the online episodes.Take, for instance, the Onu-Koro situation we've been discussing - Hapka has Onua confronting a Nuhvok swarm underground, then arriving in Onu-Koro, being informed that Nuparu has been sent to the surface to find him, then agreeing with Whenua to evacuate the village. It couldn't be much more at odds with the events of the episode if it tried.I admit that she doesn't officially contradict the Po-Koro stuff, but she wasn't writing with it in mind either, so I'm not sure how much consideration her book deserves.

So it appears the Tahnok succeeded in leveling Po-Koro, and later the Bohrok rebuilt the village. Thus the struggle in the movie was about immediate survival, granting time while the walls slowed them down, probably with some fighting as I described above, while the Matoran also evacced out the back. Once they were safely out, Pohatu and the rest stopped defending the village and fled, while the Bohrok destroyed it.

A fine solution, but I still don't think it's right of Lego to leave us in the dark.

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Again I don't think this is consistent with Takua's report. It specifically credits Nuparu with the victory ("HE beat back..."), and the other Onu-Matoran are described as returning "safely", which appears to preclude their involvement in a risky fight.

Interesting take on safely, and another good point. I was thinking along the lines of Nuparu having been the one that started it, and led the fight. Battle terminology often simplifies things that way, at least in our world; "Napolean did this," etc. when it means he led forces in battle. Other meanings could be that since he did start pushing them back, others were able to come in and help, and that safely means none died or fell to Krana or were injured. :)But let's assume you're right that it was just those three Matoran; my confusion/retreat/recalc/return logic could still give them time to build two more Boxor, and make it a slightly less uneven fight, heh. And either way, I think in that case it's enough that the Bohrok didn't yet understand it, and may have gone easy in attempt to Krana, not realizing it would take more than the normal tactics to defeat the Boxor.

And I don't see how three Matoran could've constructed multiple Boxors, cleared a cave-in, located the others, and convinced them to return, all in the period of time it'd take for the Bohrok to analyse one machine.

Well, they're not the Borg. :P These sorts of threats weren't what they were designed to handle; just inanimate objects and at most trees and maybe a few stray seabirds.

If Bohrok parts could absorb elemental powers, wouldn't this make the Bohrok invulnerable against the Toa's powers?Which is impossible anyway, as Mask of Light shows several Bohrok that were frozen by Kopaka.

Well, it's not canon, just another suggestion for how we could interpret it as in roleplaying, fanfic, etc. And a Tahnok against Pohatu for example is not the same thing as Gahlok against former Gahlok.

What real benefit would they provide?

Matoran certainly are just like a penny added to each Bohrok being something like a dollar, but as they say, every penny counts.Also in the case of the Le-Matoran it was they that were used to capture Lewa, who is at least another dollar (and in his case probably more since he was the only Air-powered being then in the swarm). You could argue Toa are worth a lot more in general because they are still fully sapient, and thus can be more imaginative... or less because they're struggling against the Krana's control. Either way, it's all addition.

The Pahrak/Lehvak attack is taken from CA Hapka's Bionicle Chronicles books. They are consistent with the dialogue and events of the comics, but she seems completely unaware of the online episodes.Take, for instance, the Onu-Koro situation we've been discussing - Hapka has Onua confronting a Nuhvok swarm underground, then arriving in Onu-Koro, being informed that Nuparu has been sent to the surface to find him, then agreeing with Whenua to evacuate the village. It couldn't be much more at odds with the events of the episode if it tried.I admit that she doesn't officially contradict the Po-Koro stuff, but she wasn't writing with it in mind either, so I'm not sure how much consideration her book deserves.

The overall rule is that if there's a contradiction, the books, movies, and comics are canon, but anything in MNOG/web that is not contradicted is canon too. (So overall they're semi-canon.) So in this Pohatu case, both sources should be considered canonically.I vaguely remember the Nuhvok problem when I was writing the old Bionicle timeline, but I don't remember how it was resolved off the topic of my head. One solution might be that the Nuhvok simply weren't actually headed directly towards Onu-Koro and ended up not being a factor.

I still don't think it's right of Lego to leave us in the dark.

But that is the view that pleases your tastes; others like gaps, and have argued for them, and against over-definition in later years. Both approaches appeal to different personal tastes, so it's subjective, and you can't rightly say that one is right and the other wrong. If anything is right it's a decent balance. But better communication and care not to contradict would also have been better, so there is a real mistake here on LEGO's part.

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If Bohrok parts could absorb elemental powers, wouldn't this make the Bohrok invulnerable against the Toa's powers?Which is impossible anyway, as Mask of Light shows several Bohrok that were frozen by Kopaka.

adn since when was mask of light canon? (rhetorical)

The Pahrak/Lehvak attack is taken from CA Hapka's Bionicle Chronicles books. They are consistent with the dialogue and events of the comics, but she seems completely unaware of the online episodes.Take, for instance, the Onu-Koro situation we've been discussing - Hapka has Onua confronting a Nuhvok swarm underground, then arriving in Onu-Koro, being informed that Nuparu has been sent to the surface to find him, then agreeing with Whenua to evacuate the village. It couldn't be much more at odds with the events of the episode if it tried.I admit that she doesn't officially contradict the Po-Koro stuff, but she wasn't writing with it in mind either, so I'm not sure how much consideration her book deserves.

The overall rule is that if there's a contradiction, the books, movies, and comics are canon, but anything in MNOG/web that is not contradicted is canon too. (So overall they're semi-canon.) So in this Pohatu case, both sources should be considered canonically.I vaguely remember the Nuhvok problem when I was writing the old Bionicle timeline, but I don't remember how it was resolved off the topic of my head. One solution might be that the Nuhvok simply weren't actually headed directly towards Onu-Koro and ended up not being a factor.
I, personally thought that the nuhvok were busy doing there work, and onua was delaying them, then the gahlok realized (possibly the hard way :P) that the cave system they were flooding connected to the cave sytem the nuhvok were destroying. squad leadr uses telepathy to a nuhvok va, nuhvok va tells nuhvok to leave. they leave. onua is wondering what happened, then wave 1 hits. onua survives. onua gos to meet with whenua. wave 2 hits during the meeting. they decide to evacuate the village, incase another wave comes. gahlok haven't arrived yet; the water from their work in another part of the caves is the water making the waves onua feels. nuparu (who as you said was aboveground searching for whenua) comes down , because he knows the village will be destroyed, goes back to get his stuff (hence his tools just happening to be with him). the matoran are still evacuating, and taipu is blocking the tunnel, rock by rock. then the thing we see in the animation happens.

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Battle terminology often simplifies things that way, at least in our world; "Napolean did this," etc. when it means he led forces in battle.

Yes, but that's when we already know for certain that the one person is leading others. In this case, the situation begins with Nuparu separate from the others, who had fled for the surface. If they'd returned and Nuparu had led them, I think the article would've made that clear.

Other meanings could be that since he did start pushing them back, others were able to come in and help, and that safely means none died or fell to Krana or were injured.

Look at the wording of the article, the other Onu-Matoran are not mentioned returning (or doing anything at all) until after a completed sentence that has only Nuparu clearing the area totally.

And either way, I think in that case it's enough that the Bohrok didn't yet understand it, and may have gone easy in attempt to Krana, not realizing it would take more than the normal tactics to defeat the Boxor.

It's possible, though I think this makes the Bohrok seem more than a little weak and stupid.I think, by now, what's most clear is that the writers just didn't give enough consideration to the episode's situation and its outcome.

These sorts of threats weren't what they were designed to handle; just inanimate objects and at most trees and maybe a few stray seabirds.

Then why do they have big claws, and heads that snap forward like hammers?They appear to have been designed with features for at least some close quarters combat.

Matoran certainly are just like a penny added to each Bohrok being something like a dollar, but as they say, every penny counts.

I can't agree with you on this. The Bohrok swarms capturing Matoran here and there is like a multi-millionaire acquiring a few one dollar bills - yes, technically it's a gain, but one so insignificant compared to what's already there, that it's effectively pointless.

Also in the case of the Le-Matoran it was they that were used to capture Lewa,

Were they? When Lewa returns to Le-Koro, there are both Krana'd villagers and Lehvak present. It's unclear how or by whom Lewa was captured, as it wasn't shown (what a surprise). However, I can't see how the Le-Matoran would do it, as Lewa could simply use his Miru to hover out of their reach.

The overall rule is that if there's a contradiction, the books, movies, and comics are canon, but anything in MNOG/web that is not contradicted is canon too. (So overall they're semi-canon.)

I do find it a bit frustrating how quite a bit of media from 2001 that defined that year for us is 'not canon', simply because Hapka's book thoughtlessly ignored it.

others like gaps, and have argued for them, and against over-definition in later years.

I actually agree, I wouldn't want to know everything. But somehow the idea of repeatedly setting up for a big action scene, then snapping away from it doesn't sit well with me.

But better communication and care not to contradict would also have been better, so there is a real mistake here on LEGO's part.

It's a consequence of several different people/groups all working on the same story with little or no interaction between them, and Lego not noticing or caring about the inevitable contradictions.

onua gos to meet with whenua. wave 2 hits during the meeting. they decide to evacuate the village, incase another wave comes. gahlok haven't arrived yet; the water from their work in another part of the caves is the water making the waves onua feels. nuparu (who as you said was aboveground searching for whenua) comes down , because he knows the village will be destroyed, goes back to get his stuff (hence his tools just happening to be with him). the matoran are still evacuating, and taipu is blocking the tunnel, rock by rock. then the thing we see in the animation happens.

An admirable attempt, but the problem with it is that it has Onua at the scene, and there is no appearance or mention of him in either the episode or its article.

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Yes, but that's when we already know for certain that the one person is leading others.

We do know he was leading at least two others.

Look at the wording of the article, the other Onu-Matoran are not mentioned returning (or doing anything at all) until after a completed sentence that has only Nuparu clearing the area totally.

I know, but it does not explicitly state the order of events, so I'd consider it debatable running from that alone.

Then why do they have big claws, and heads that snap forward like hammers?They appear to have been designed with features for at least some close quarters combat.

Or jackhammer heads to help weaken rock; I think there was a video that showed that, or something similar, in fact. And most did not have clear claws; they were all handshields designed to focus their elemental power. Some may look like claws but that could just be the design of those shields. Alternatively claws could also come in handy cleaning; none of those features have to be for fighting.And we do know for a fact that their purpose was to clean, not to run into beings, etc. as I said. That wasn't speculation on my part. I admit it's debatable how much contingency thinking went into their design to prepare them for possible battle, though.

The Bohrok swarms capturing Matoran here and there is like a multi-millionaire acquiring a few one dollar bills - yes, technically it's a gain, but one so insignificant compared to what's already there, that it's effectively pointless.

The analogy breaks down there, though, because the Matoran and Toa were actively opposing the Bohrok, so they had to deal with the threat anyways. We've seen that prior to the Boxor the Kranaing approach was effective, and was their default approach. If you have to stop what you're doing to fight an enemy, in normal circumstances, it's wiser to convert enemy to ally than to just take them out.Obviously that strategy would backfire if a situation like we're discussing arose, but in general it would actually be effective. Worked on all of Le-Koro and Lewa, and almost Tahu. So again the key here is that a new and unexpected threat arose before they had time to deal with it.The addition of the ground traps later probably implies that by that time the Bohrok thought they were ready for this new attack, so the Matoran/Toa/Turaga decided more would be needed to win that battle. But the first time it appeared, it does make sense the Bohrok would still be using their default strategy. This happens in battle all the time.

Were they? When Lewa returns to Le-Koro, there are both Krana'd villagers and Lehvak present. It's unclear how or by whom Lewa was captured, as it wasn't shown (what a surprise). However, I can't see how the Le-Matoran would do it, as Lewa could simply use his Miru to hover out of their reach.

Psychology is the answer here. Shock and uncertainty for how to deal with this could delay his rational strategizing long enough for them to get his mask off and Krana him. My point isn't that the Matoran were physically stronger or that they did it alone, but that at least the first time it proved an effective strategy for ensnaring Lewa. This is strongly implied when they say "we've been waiting for you," etc.

I do find it a bit frustrating how quite a bit of media from 2001 that defined that year for us is 'not canon', simply because Hapka's book thoughtlessly ignored it.

That was just one problem -- the web team did not run things by the story team, and the story team likewise did not seem too worried about coordinating with the web team. LEGO in general didn't seem to realize that its web angle of marketing would become so wildly successful that we would mostly identify with that as "Bionicle" and other things as more afterthoughts. They seem to have thought that we would see comics, and later books (even though those were added later) as "Bionicle" and the web as just some fan's interpretation.Even though publicly this was never stated until three years later when Greg joined here. So yeah, it was full of mistakes, mostly caused by poor communication. If they'd just all coordinated and avoided contradictions it wouldn't matter which source fans latched onto as "Bionicle."In general, personally as a fan, I do tend to take MNOG/web as the true account and other sources as additions. (In my latest SS for example I took the MNOG portrayal of Kapura as absolute, even though other canon sources have never confirmed it.)Really now that it's all over, I would venture to suggest that fans consider organizing some fusion of fanon and canon that is MNOG-centric instead of book centric. But I dunno how likely it is that this could be organized. (Obviously we've done fanon with the EM, but it's a fanfic universe, so a different animal.)

But somehow the idea of repeatedly setting up for a big action scene, then snapping away from it doesn't sit well with me.

Well, I get ya there. Nothing wrong with that reaction.So, here's what BS01 says on this:

After the Bohrok were awakened and started to level the island, Nuhvok attacked the village, trying to destroy columns in a cavern, in an attempt to cave Onu-Koro in. However, Onua was able to trick them into retreat by using their assignment against them and creating a trench around one of the last columns. Shortly afterward it was attacked and flooded by Gahlok, but Nuparu helped drive them off with his new invention, the Boxor. The flood halted much work, and, up to the leaving of the Matoran, remained flooded.

I'm not entirely clear how creating a trench uses their assignment against them, but if we take this as canon, the Nuhvok were dealt with before the Gahlok came. This also words it as Nuparu helping to drive them off -- which can fit what we know or if more Matoran came back and helped.The current BS01 timeline says this:

  • [*]Onua, while travelling to
Onu-Koro, locates a swarm of Nuhvok. He takes down a few members of the swarm and gathers some Krana. The rest of the swarm disappears after a Nuhvok Va relays a mysterious message.[*]Onua reaches Onu-Koro. Suddenly a Gahlok swarm floods the cavern. Onua agrees with Whenua to evacuate.[*]While Onu-Koro is being evacuated, the Gahlok attack again. Onepu, Taipu and Nuparu are trapped in a cave. Using parts from a destroyed Bohrok, they create the Boxor, which they use to escape.

BRC's timeline says this:

Onu-Koro is attacked by Nuvhok and then Gahlok attack as well, just as the Matoran are evacuating. Taipu, Onepu, and Nuparu get separated from the others and trapped. Using parts from disabled Gahlok, Nuparu invents the Boxor, and they use it to escape and fight the Gahlok.

And my original timeline says this:

  • [*](BC#2: Beware the Bohrok) Onu-Koro is attacked by Nuvhok.[*](OE#3: Engineering a Solution) Onu-Koro is attacked by Gahlok as the Matoran are evacuating. Taipu, Onepu, and Nuparu get separated from the others and trapped. Using parts from disabled Gahlok, Nuparu invents the Boxor, and they use it to escape and fight the Gahlok.

I didn't deal with how the Nuhvok were defeated, so no help there lol.From all of this it appears most likely to me that Onua partially deKranaed the Nuhvok swarm and then used his elemental powers to redirect their path away from the cavern. The latter would work because, again, they weren't intentionally attacking the village, it just happened to be in their way. How exactly he did it I'm still unclear on, but a trench was involved somehow. Then soon after the whole Gahlok incident happened as portrayed in the webisode -- but both threats may have been factors in Whenua's decision to evac.The key here is that the Nuhvok were not part of the swarm Nuparu fought.And I'd still contend it's possible the Gahlok were not specifically focused on this cavern, so at least some of the swarm may simply have passed through, ignoring Nuparu or before he emerged.BTW, another factor we haven't considered yet is the Onu-Matoran's familiarity with the underground and their ability to see well in the dark, compared to the fact that these Bohrok do not "belong" underground. Although we can assume at least some of them had Krana Bo to see in the dark, likely others did not and these would have been easier targets for Nuparu.So overall I conclude there are still many plausible interpretations and possible factors that could justify Nuparu winning that fight.Edit: Actually now that I think about it the trench thing does make sense, since they were trying to break up the ground. Let's suppose that they had some kind of a measure of a certain amount of strength of the overall ground, as resistance to the giant robot's upward pressure when it would stand up. A trench would help cut up a section of the ground, so it may have pushed the measure down to the the maximum level they were okay with, so they moved on to some other area with a higher measure.This measure wouldn't matter until the robot started to stand up because the system normally works with downward gravitational pressure. The only problem with this idea that I see off the bat is, how did Onua know the difference?Maybe he didn't, and had another purpose for the trench in mind, but this may have been why it "coincidentally worked" from the Bohrok's perspective. Maybe he just figured it would provide an obstacle to the next column and delay them long enough to de-Krana more.There's also the matter of the "mysterious Nuvhok Va message." This would make incredible sense here, if it's the Va that do the measuring, or were relaying the message from the Bahrag who do the measuring, and it explains why it would be mysterious to Onua. Edited by bonesiii

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We do know he was leading at least two others.

Yes, but only two people, not a huge force (as your Napolean comparison has it). Neither had Boxors or any special weapons, so I doubt they could contribute much to the fight. Hence Takua only crediting Nuparu, because he was the only one in a position to do the Bohrok real damage.

I know, but it does not explicitly state the order of events, so I'd consider it debatable running from that alone.

But the events described in the article unfold in the same order as the events in the episode itself."he came across a Krana-less Gahlok"then..."Nuparu realized that the Bohrok were simply transports for the Krana"then..."constructing the Boxor"then..."he beat back the aggressive Gahlok swarm"then..."Onu-Matoran were delighted to return to their homes safely"We know for sure from the episode that at least the first three events occurred one after the other in the order the article places them in. Whilst it's impossible to know for sure that the same applies to the last two events, given how they're written and arranged I don't see why we shouldn't assume they also occurred one after the other.

Or jackhammer heads to help weaken rock; I think there was a video that showed that, or something similar, in fact.

Repeatedly headbutting a rock? Ouch.

And most did not have clear claws; they were all handshields designed to focus their elemental power. Some may look like claws but that could just be the design of those shields. Alternatively claws could also come in handy cleaning; none of those features have to be for fighting.

Actually, Hapka's book describes how 'the (Nuhvok)'s clawed arm swung towards (Onua), nearly connecting with his head', displaying a capacity for hand to hand fighting.

The analogy breaks down there, though, because the Matoran and Toa were actively opposing the Bohrok, so they had to deal with the threat anyways. We've seen that prior to the Boxor the Kranaing approach was effective, and was their default approach. If you have to stop what you're doing to fight an enemy, in normal circumstances, it's wiser to convert enemy to ally than to just take them out.

I'm not disputing the value of Kranaing Toa, who were both a significant threat and potentially valuable gain to the Bohrok, due to their size, speed and powers.However, excepting the presence of Boxors, the Matoran were nearly always shown fleeing from the Bohrok with no real way of opposing them. They could hardly be described as a threat, perhaps an annoyance at most.And surely getting hold of them, removing their masks and applying Krana to them would take more time and effort than just crushing/melting/freezing/drowning them.

Worked on all of Le-Koro and Lewa, and almost Tahu.

Was Tahu ever Krana'd? I know there was some promotional artwork from the time showing it, but I don't recall it actually happening in the story.

Psychology is the answer here. Shock and uncertainty for how to deal with this could delay his rational strategizing long enough for them to get his mask off and Krana him. My point isn't that the Matoran were physically stronger or that they did it alone, but that at least the first time it proved an effective strategy for ensnaring Lewa. This is strongly implied when they say "we've been waiting for you," etc.

I'm assuming you're still referring to the Le-Matoran here - however shocked he may have been, I don't see why agile, instinctive Lewa wouldn't just leap away as soon as they lunged at him.I think the most likely explanation for his Kranaing is that the Lehvak had infested that entire area of the jungle, and that Lewa (as his thought bubble in the comic shows) was so assured that Le-Koro was still intact that he didn't properly study the area into which he was heading. By the time he was aware of the Bohrok, they had him surrounded, Krana'd Matoran or not.

That was just one problem -- the web team did not run things by the story team, and the story team likewise did not seem too worried about coordinating with the web team. LEGO in general didn't seem to realize that its web angle of marketing would become so wildly successful that we would mostly identify with that as "Bionicle" and other things as more afterthoughts. They seem to have thought that we would see comics, and later books (even though those were added later) as "Bionicle" and the web as just some fan's interpretation.

Very true, and I think there are two more factors worth mentioning.Firstly, I think the computer game The Legend of Mata Nui was meant to be the core narrative for 2001, telling the story of the central characters, the Toa, from start to finish, incorporating content from the MNOLG and possibly the comics too. When it was cancelled, a large hole appeared in the 2001 story that was somewhat filled by the MNOLG. Had the game been finished and released, I suspect there wouldn't be as much confusion as to exactly what the 2001 story does and doesn't consist of.Secondly, I doubt Lego had any idea that so many of the first generation of Bionicle fans would stay with the line for so long thereafter, and set up forums and encyclopedias in which to catalogue and analyse it as thoroughly as we've done over the years.

Really now that it's all over, I would venture to suggest that fans consider organizing some fusion of fanon and canon that is MNOG-centric instead of book centric.

Sounds good to me. I'm a little mystified as to why Hapka's retrospective 2003 books should override stuff that actually came out in 2001 itself.

The current BS01 timeline says this: (snip)

The problem with this is that it has Onua at or near the scene of the Gahlok attack. Neither the episode or the article include him, and if three of his people didn't make it out, surely he would've gone back to retrieve them.

BRC's timeline says this: (snip)

And the problem with this is that it doesn't have Onua there for the Nuhvok attack.The roadblock to trying to reconcile the book's Nuhvok with the episode's Gahlok is that the former requires Onua's presence, and the latter his absence.

From all of this it appears most likely to me that Onua partially deKranaed the Nuhvok swarm and then used his elemental powers to redirect their path away from the cavern. The latter would work because, again, they weren't intentionally attacking the village, it just happened to be in their way. How exactly he did it I'm still unclear on, but a trench was involved somehow.

I don't know if you've read the chapter in Hapka's book, but what happens is that Onua is in the process of de-Kranaing the Nuhvok, when a Va enters and orders the remaining Bohrok to scatter. Onua is puzzled, then heads to Onu-Koro, where a big wave stuns the village. Onua and Whenua then agree to evacuate and the chapter ends.Exactly why the Nuhvok left, who sent the wave, and whether the Onu-Matoran did evacuate isn't explained. Onua isn't seen again until he confronts Krana'd Lewa.

BTW, another factor we haven't considered yet is the Onu-Matoran's familiarity with the underground and their ability to see well in the dark, compared to the fact that these Bohrok do not "belong" underground. Although we can assume at least some of them had Krana Bo to see in the dark, likely others did not and these would have been easier targets for Nuparu.

The Onu-Matoran still need a light source to see by, as the relevant MNOLG chapter indicates, with them refusing to work due to the lack of Lightstones.Besides, the Gahlok would surely be used to a certain level of darkness, due to having been designed for the murky sea depths. Edited by Sir Kohran

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We don't know for sure those two remained without Boxors until after the swarm was driven away for good. As I said, one possibility is the Gahlok retreated briefly, giving time to make two more, and then came back. But you're probably right -- my only point is that by the wordings we have, we cannot absolutely rule out more Boxor and/or more Onu-Matoran joining the fight before it was over.

I don't see why we shouldn't assume they also occurred one after the other.

Hold on there. I've seen this basic flow and counterflow in debates before, but that's not what I was saying. You gave the perspective you thought likely, and I merely pointed out another possibility. By no means did I say I think that possibility is even likely, and I am against assuming anyways. But in response to it, you followed this common flowback and talking about how we shouldn't assume.You're right, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we can't rule it out. The difference may be subtle but it's there.Do I think it likely? I dunno, I'm undecided on it. I think it comes down to this -- I've presented other possibilities that, admittedly, make Nuparu's job seem a lot harder than this idea. But those other ideas seem, for now, to be more likely. If those ideas are ruled out and this one isn't, then logically I would think this more likely. :)Yeah?Well, Nuhvok shields don't look much like claws, to me, compared to for example Lehvak. But anyways, we're not disagreeing there really on their capability. After all, knocking off a mask was a step, generally, in Krana-ing, so yeah. I'm just saying, we do know for a fact their primary purpose is cleaning.Of course to borrow the recent phrase (and then paraphrase it lol), the Bohrok may have actually been prepared to possibly murder any natives of a visited planet who had the misfortune of finding the camo island and living there. All kindsa reason to doubt that, but who knows? Or maybe they were supposed to capture them, and imprison them inside the robot... or something... either way battle WOULD make sense for them, so it does make sense, apparently, they'd be ready to fight.Still, they had experience already fighting Matoran and that told them Matoran were weak, and this unreliable experience would at least for a moment likely give them pause or fall faster than they should have.Part of the above answers your next point, if I'm right. The GBs' whole purpose seems to have been to preserve life; that given enough time the Shattering, if unreversed, would kill people on Bara Magna (dunno about elsewhere). Greg once basically said that, though before we really knew much about it. And Angonce seemed to immediately think, once he realized the Toa were now sapient, that Marendar should be stopped.So the GBs would probably make sure the Bohrok wouldn't kill anyone. So it's either imprison (same effort, really more if they had to make prisons -- and really Kranaing is a kind of prison) or Krana. Maybe Kranaing was what they would have done to "extra-spherus-magna-life" living on the camo island, in fact.Greg confirmed the Krana was on Tahu's face, but it hadn't yet quite got a mental hold on him, and he was able to take it off immediately. So almost.About shock -- well, that's what shock does, it makes you freeze up and not react rationally, often even in the face of oncoming vehicles, etc. Up till that point I don't think Lewa had even seen a hint that Krana could do that, so that would help. Admittedly that wouldn't help if the Bohrok tried it a second time.Re: Onua there before Gahlok -- well, he may have chased after the Nuhvok. He was supposed to be collecting Krana, dunno if he had enough then, though.

And the problem with this [the BRC's] is that it doesn't have Onua there for the Nuhvok attack.

Well, that wording is clearly based on my original timeline, just further condensed, and my timeline was taken directly from the book. I intentionally did not spoil all book details, so for example to learn how an enemy was defeated you would still need to buy the book. There were legal reasons at the time to be concerned about this, or at least that was my concern, whether I was playing it oversafe or not I don't know. Nobody else had ever done one so I wasn't gonna take risks, yeah?So the line there saying the Nuhvok attacked, and citing the book as the source, is intended to refer to the whole book incident including Onua's presence. :)

I don't know if you've read the chapter in Hapka's book, but what happens is that Onua is in the process of de-Kranaing the Nuhvok, when a Va enters and orders the remaining Bohrok to scatter. Onua is puzzled, then heads to Onu-Koro, where a big wave stuns the village. Onua and Whenua then agree to evacuate and the chapter ends.Exactly why the Nuhvok left, who sent the wave, and whether the Onu-Matoran did evacuate isn't explained. Onua isn't seen again until he confronts Krana'd Lewa.

Ah, that makes it much clearer, thanks. Obviously I read it but it's been many years, and I'm forgetful anyways lol.The book actually just leaves that unanswered? I don't recall that. Wouldn't that be a direct shoutout to the web anim as the place to go to see what happened next? This mostly seems to fit.The only big difference I spot right now is, as you say, Onua is not shown in the web animation, but that doesn't mean he's not there. He may have also led the evacuation, so by the time the anim starts, he's already off-scene.Maybe he even was just making a new tunnel for them to evacuate along; that would explain why he'd be at the front of the evac instead of the back.

The Onu-Matoran still need a light source to see by, as the relevant MNOLG chapter indicates, with them refusing to work due to the lack of Lightstones.Besides, the Gahlok would surely be used to a certain level of darkness, due to having been designed for the murky sea depths.

Good points, but didn't we establish the fight took place in Onu-Koro itself? Obviously the Onu-Matoran would have enough light to see by there. It's where they live and they have lightstones there (at the time anyways).Maybe they might have taken most with them while evaccing though. I dunno. Edited by bonesiii

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We don't know for sure those two remained without Boxors until after the swarm was driven away for good. As I said, one possibility is the Gahlok retreated briefly, giving time to make two more, and then came back.

Whilst we're on the matter of building Boxors, is it really possible to get a whole one out of one Bohrok? Given that they have a load of parts (Gali hooks, very long beams, etc.) which the Bohrok's fairly compact bodies surely can't include.

About shock -- well, that's what shock does, it makes you freeze up and not react rationally, often even in the face of oncoming vehicles, etc. Up till that point I don't think Lewa had even seen a hint that Krana could do that, so that would help. Admittedly that wouldn't help if the Bohrok tried it a second time.

Just to really mess things up...In Hapka's book, Lewa lands in a clearing and sees Matau and the Le-Matoran all Krana'd. Smoke is rising behind them, but no Bohrok are mentioned. Much later, when all the Toa regroup, Lewa is explaining himself to them. He claims the Le-Matoran tricked him by telling him that the Krana were just a physical problem and they needed his strength to remove them. Lewa says that when he began to do this, his mask was suddenly pulled off and a Krana quickly put in its place. Tahu is suspicious of this, feeling (like me) that a Toa couldn't be overpowered by Matoran. The veracity of Lewa's story is left unconfirmed.The book is clearly inconsistent with the comic, which has Lewa landing, seeing the Le-Matoran and at least nine Lehvak stood in plain view with them, which are not mentioned in the book. And regardless of whether Lewa understood what had happened to the Le-Matoran, he would've immediately recognised the Lehvak as hostile Bohrok and wouldn't have stayed there passively talking.

Onua there before Gahlok -- well, he may have chased after the Nuhvok. He was supposed to be collecting Krana, dunno if he had enough then, though.

The book actually states that 'Onua had a full set of Krana' from the Nuhvok.And even if he didn't, surely the safety of his people would take priority.

The book actually just leaves that unanswered? I don't recall that.

I gave the book a quick read today, and as far as I can tell, yes, the situation is left hanging.

Wouldn't that be a direct shoutout to the web anim as the place to go to see what happened next? This mostly seems to fit.

There's one inconsistency - the first wave apparently leaves enough water that '(a)ll sorts of debris floated on the water's surface', yet the episode's opening shows Onu-Koro completely dry.

The only big difference I spot right now is, as you say, Onua is not shown in the web animation, but that doesn't mean he's not there. He may have also led the evacuation, so by the time the anim starts, he's already off-scene.Maybe he even was just making a new tunnel for them to evacuate along; that would explain why he'd be at the front of the evac instead of the back.

If Onua was there, why didn't he return for Onepu, Taipu and Nuparu when they were left behind?

Good points, but didn't we establish the fight took place in Onu-Koro itself? Obviously the Onu-Matoran would have enough light to see by there.

Which would simultaneously provide at least some light for the Gahlok to see by.

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Obviously setwise Bohrok to Boxor is impossible, but storywise it's possible. Keep in mind the sets are just representations.Tahu's suspicion is obviously unfounded, though, and Lewa was being honest. So that confirms my point that at least once Kranaing the Matoran and a Turaga helped get a Toa (but probably wouldn't work twice). A Matoran could definately take off a Toa's mask, also, as there's no difference in cohesion between Matoran and Toa masks and we saw one Matoran (Kongu) take off their own mask easily.I agree, though, that the Levhak thing is problematic. Shock, again, could be enough to still let him fall for the Matoran's claim and get quickly Kranaed. But it would make a lot more sense if there weren't any Lehvak standing around looking very much like they're on the Matoran's side.I would actually kinda side with the book on that one, as that explanation does seem more plausible than a more confrontational approach. The reason the comic showed it that way is probably pretty obvious -- it needed to look cliffhangery and threatening without confirming what happens next. So the Lehvak make the scene look more frightening. Of course it's still possible they were there and not mentioned.Water can and does soak into the ground, and it was dark and just a web anim in quality anyways, so it's plausible it wasn't completely dry, just merely damp instead of still flooded by the time the video starts, isn't it?If my idea is right that he was making the tunnel they were fleeing along, he couldn't go back while still doing that. He also might not have realized; there were over 200 Matoran per village, a lot to keep track of, especially in a chaotic situation like that.My point about the Onu-Matoran is that they are probably better by a little than Bo-less Gahlok at seeing in the dark, and assuming a lot of lightstones were gone it was dim, so it may have been borderline, where the Matoran would have the advantage over some of the Bohrok. Also worth mentioning the Gahlok have no reason to go deep in the water, but admittedly the fact that they're doing this water tactic underground argues against my reasoning here, as they seemed to take to it naturally. So I'm probably wrong on that, but it's possible.

Edited by bonesiii

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Sorry for the late reply, real life's been keeping me.

Obviously setwise Bohrok to Boxor is impossible, but storywise it's possible. Keep in mind the sets are just representations.

I thought the sets were the definitive versions?If not, what do Bionicle beings 'really' look like?

Tahu's suspicion is obviously unfounded, though, and Lewa was being honest.

Why do you think Hapka inserted it if it was unfounded?

I would actually kinda side with the book on that one, as that explanation does seem more plausible than a more confrontational approach. The reason the comic showed it that way is probably pretty obvious -- it needed to look cliffhangery and threatening without confirming what happens next. So the Lehvak make the scene look more frightening.

Or to make Lewa appear doomed, which he probably wouldn't if he was just facing Krana'd Le-Matoran.

Of course it's still possible they were there and not mentioned.

I don't think it is; surely Lewa would've reacted had there been nearly a dozen Bohrok stood just a few metres from him.

Water can and does soak into the ground, and it was dark and just a web anim in quality anyways, so it's plausible it wasn't completely dry, just merely damp instead of still flooded by the time the video starts, isn't it?

Floodwater does take a while to recede, and I doubt the Gahlok would leave a large gap of time between their strikes on the village.It might also be worth noting that seeing as nearly a year lies between the release of the animation and that of the book, the animation's situation was probably created well before that within the book. And given how Hapka wrote over the Kini-Nui stages of the MNOLG, it's almost certain that she wasn't trying to be consistent with any of the online content.

If my idea is right that he was making the tunnel they were fleeing along, he couldn't go back while still doing that. He also might not have realized; there were over 200 Matoran per village, a lot to keep track of, especially in a chaotic situation like that.

Surely there would've been a register/roll call once they reached safety. Certainly Onepu, as the most important Matoran of the village, would've been missed very quickly.And the three Onu-Matoran were in the collapsed tunnel for a fairly long time, long enough for their absences to be noted and Onua to return for them.

Also worth mentioning the Gahlok have no reason to go deep in the water, but admittedly the fact that they're doing this water tactic underground argues against my reasoning here, as they seemed to take to it naturally.

I had in mind this artwork, set either in the sea or a very deep lake:Gali_vs._Gahlok.png

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Sorry for the late reply, real life's been keeping me.

Obviously setwise Bohrok to Boxor is impossible, but storywise it's possible. Keep in mind the sets are just representations.

I thought the sets were the definitive versions?If not, what do Bionicle beings 'really' look like?
They look like the biomechanical beings the sets are designed to suggest. Externally, they probably mostly look like the sets (albeit not made of LEGO parts), but internally, they've presumably got lots of organic and mechanical components that aren't possible to represent accurately with LEGO parts.There is no real "definitive version" of any of the characters. All depictions of them are merely interpretations, the sets being the original official interpretations. But to treat the sets as 100% official is foolish. The Toa Mata look like they could be a different species entirely from the Toa Metru, but in reality they're the same species and probably anatomically identical for the most part, with joints in all the same places. There would be variations between individuals, so they'd obviously have different armor, but fundamentally they'd share the same overall structure.

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I thought the sets were the definitive versions?

They're the plastic versions. :P There's a lot of things they had to do in the plastic due it being a toy. And as the Boxor show, among other things, the specific pieces aren't always in those shapes. It's just to give you a good idea of what they're like. (For example, the typical MU beings have internal metal skeletons, some bio components, and exterior armor 'skin' that can't be shown in the set forms for the most part, so with that alone it's clear there's more separatable parts than in the sets.)

Why do you think Hapka inserted it if it was unfounded?

Because it's a realistic thing to wonder. Wouldn't you wonder the same if a friend had been literally mind-controlled, and was still acting a bit odd?

surely Lewa would've reacted had there been nearly a dozen Bohrok

But there are all kinds of situations where it's easy to say things like that, in real life too -- surely you'd notice that car about to sideswipe you, etc. and people simply don't always. Especially when they happen fast, and when something very unexpected puts you into a state of shock. In case it's not clear, what I'm theorizing here is not just what people mean when they say something is shocking, but the actual state of shock which literally can freeze people up so that all these "surelies" don't apply.

Floodwater does take a while to recede

Well that depends on a lot of things.

And given how Hapka wrote over the Kini-Nui stages of the MNOLG, it's almost certain that she wasn't trying to be consistent with any of the online content.

It's well established that Hapka wasn't paying careful enough attention, but that's not really what we're discussing; we're discussing how the two can be plausibly theorized to work together when this isn't a clear overlap. It seems clear the Onu situation is one that works, albeit just barely. And that said, Hapka was probably at least aware there was other story out there and for the most part was probably intending to write episodically, with the general assumption that previously seen stuff would happen in the gaps.

Surely there would've been a register/roll call once they reached safety. Certainly Onepu, as the most important Matoran of the village, would've been missed very quickly.

Key phrase being once they reached safety, yeah. That could have taken quite a while.

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