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Gatiss's writing is perhaps not as complex in terms of plot as many of the other writers on the show, but I actually think he does a reasonably good job of keeping his plots coherent and, well, not leaving huge plot-holes in his wake. See, while I think Moffat is perhaps better at manipulating an audience emotionally, Gatiss is much more straightforward, and in many ways more careful with his storytelling. I can't honestly say I prefer one or the other, but it really depends on your opinion of what makes a good story.

 

Also, on the Sherlock thing, apparently...

 

 

 

The Red Leech is a reference to "the repulsive story of the red leech," mentioned in one of the original Sherlock Holmes stories (though never explained in full.)

 

 

So, by my count, there are now more episodes of Doctor Who that reference Sherlock Holmes than there are episodes of Sherlock that reference Sherlock Holmes. Something not quite right there...

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Well, as there are many more episodes of Doctor Who in general, this isn't entirely surprising. I'm guessing there are, as of right now, six episodes of Sherlock that reference Sherlock Holmes?

We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget


And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on


We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget


We will remember


We all shall follow doom

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Well, as there are many more episodes of Doctor Who in general, this isn't entirely surprising. I'm guessing there are, as of right now, six episodes of Sherlock that reference Sherlock Holmes?

*whistles*

 

Wait, hoe many episodes of Sherlock are there? And then compare that to like, 400 and something. :P

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Unsurprisingly, there are currently six episodes of Sherlock. Compare the proportion of Sherlock episodes that reference Sherlock Holmes (probably 1) to the proportion of Doctor Who episodes that reference Sherlock Holmes (at a guess, somewhat less than .5), and things look a bit less wonky.

We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget


And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on


We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget


We will remember


We all shall follow doom

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I like how I'm listening to Trock right now...

*taptaptaptap*

 

Also, anyone feeling sorry for the blind girl apart from me?

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Well, as there are many more episodes of Doctor Who in general, this isn't entirely surprising. I'm guessing there are, as of right now, six episodes of Sherlock that reference Sherlock Holmes?

 

Excellent deduction.

Unsurprisingly, there are currently six episodes of Sherlock. Compare the proportion of Sherlock episodes that reference Sherlock Holmes (probably 1) to the proportion of Doctor Who episodes that reference Sherlock Holmes (at a guess, somewhat less than .5), and things look a bit less wonky.

I know, I know. Basically, my point was that there's too much Sherlock in Doctor Who, and not enough Sherlock in Sherlock. :P

 

That is, I don't mind all the references (and trying to spot them all is quite fun, actually), it just feels a little bit like being taunted at times during the wait for S3.

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Mmh, I would certainly love for there to be nine episodes of Sherlock - though, as my source for watching them is Netflix, I'm a bit more ambivalent about it than most of the fanbase - I don't get to watch a new season of any show until a year after it's out.

 

Unlike with Doctor Who, of course, I plan to avoid spoilers like the plague. Spoilers don't ruin a first viewing of an episode of Doctor Who nearly as much as they wreck a first viewing of an episode of Sherlock.

We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget


And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on


We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget


We will remember


We all shall follow doom

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Gatiss's writing is perhaps not as complex in terms of plot as many of the other writers on the show, but I actually think he does a reasonably good job of keeping his plots coherent and, well, not leaving huge plot-holes in his wake. See, while I think Moffat is perhaps better at manipulating an audience emotionally, Gatiss is much more straightforward, and in many ways more careful with his storytelling. I can't honestly say I prefer one or the other, but it really depends on your opinion of what makes a good story.

 

Also, on the Sherlock thing, apparently...

 

 

 

The Red Leech is a reference to "the repulsive story of the red leech," mentioned in one of the original Sherlock Holmes stories (though never explained in full.)

 

 

So, by my count, there are now more episodes of Doctor Who that reference Sherlock Holmes than there are episodes of Sherlock that reference Sherlock Holmes. Something not quite right there...

Well, for me with Gatiss's writing, it's less about timey-wimey stuff vs straightforward plots, but rather I don't find his episodes very well written. He's gotten better for Night Terrors and Cold War, and I suppose Victory of the Daleks, but overall I dread the thought of him replacing Moffat as showrunner just due to quality of imagination.

 

As for Sherlock, isn't Madame Vastra the inspiration for Sherlock Holmes in the Doctor Who universe?

 

-CF

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Mark Gatiss really overdid the humour in The Crimson Horror. Like Thomas Thomas - was that really necessary? The character did nothing except provide a single joke and then stand around with the equally pointless Strax for the rest of the episode. It was treated like a comedy instead of sci-fi, and that is not okay. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy the rest of the episode (the soundtrack for this series is just immense, for example), but these episodes with the Vastra/Jenny gang are getting a bit too over-the-top. I mean, some parts were genuinely funny, like the guy fainting, but terrible things like the TomTom joke and the Doctor kissing Jenny for no reason, getting slapped and doing that weird cartoony expression on his face. On the bright side, the ending was absolutely amazing with the photos and the 1986 Galvatron figure on the kitchen counter. And of course Diana Rigg and her daughter made the episode for me, with the whole dark plot and their performances and all. It could have been so much better if it wasn't for all the silliness.

 

 

As for Sherlock, isn't Madame Vastra the inspiration for Sherlock Holmes in the Doctor Who universe?

 

-CF

She is indeed, and it seems to be the way people hear about her, and expect her to be human.

 

 

Unlike with Doctor Who, of course, I plan to avoid spoilers like the plague. Spoilers don't ruin a first viewing of an episode of Doctor Who nearly as much as they wreck a first viewing of an episode of Sherlock.

I believe it is easier to avoid Sherlock spoilers than Who ones, so you haven't made a bad decision there. I intend to do the same, but that isn't to say I can't listen to speculation and such about the third Series.

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*prepares for Moffat to make us think he is revealing the doctor's name.*

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I find the similar-yet-different tone and style of the two shows quite amusing at times. For example, when Doctor Who and Sherlock were filming on the same day, they both made the TV news headlines.

 

The Sherlock production team was basically telling all the fans to stay away, not to take photographs of the sets, not to talk to the actors, etc. (They didn't actually say "Alone is what I have, alone protects me!" but I like to imagine that they did.)

 

Meanwhile, the Doctor Who production team...

 

"Come and watch us filming the 50th in the middle of London in front of a bazillion tourists!"

 

As for the Doctor's name... Steven Moffat said we are going to learn a huge secret about The Doctor, and I believe that, but I still don't think it will be the name.

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I wonder if the headset thingy that turns Timelords into humans can turn Human's into Timelords?

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Mark Gatiss really overdid the humour in The Crimson Horror. Like Thomas Thomas - was that really necessary? The character did nothing except provide a single joke and then stand around with the equally pointless Strax for the rest of the episode. It was treated like a comedy instead of sci-fi, and that is not okay. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy the rest of the episode (the soundtrack for this series is just immense, for example), but these episodes with the Vastra/Jenny gang are getting a bit too over-the-top. I mean, some parts were genuinely funny, like the guy fainting, but terrible things like the TomTom joke and the Doctor kissing Jenny for no reason, getting slapped and doing that weird cartoony expression on his face. On the bright side, the ending was absolutely amazing with the photos and the 1986 Galvatron figure on the kitchen counter. And of course Diana Rigg and her daughter made the episode for me, with the whole dark plot and their performances and all. It could have been so much better if it wasn't for all the silliness.

I'm going to have to beg to differ. Doctor Who is sci-fi, some fantasy, comedy, some romance, and drama all rolled up into every episode. I expect to laugh constantly at one-liners and clever jokes like the Thomas Thomas line (in fact, that was my favorite).

 

-CF

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I wonder if the headset thingy that turns Timelords into humans can turn Human's into Timelords?

The thing is all that device does is deactivate one of the hearts, suppress certain memories, and create new ones to replace them. It could, perhaps, make a human think they were a Time Lord, but as far as their biology goes they will still be a human, as a Time Lord is still really a Time Lord in the same shoes. The machine can't magically displace all their internal organs and grow another heart, for example, or give someone the ability to regenerate.

 

 

 

I'm going to have to beg to differ. Doctor Who is sci-fi, some fantasy, comedy, some romance, and drama all rolled up into every episode. I expect to laugh constantly at one-liners and clever jokes like the Thomas Thomas line (in fact, that was my favorite).

 

-CF

I agree with you on that first part, but I think the comedy should be more subtle than a single character existing for the sake of one joke, or entire scenes being solely comedic. Admittedly the show has always done things like this from its outset, like some of the dreadful episodes during the middle of The Dalek's Masterplan for example, but that doesn't alter my personal tastes.

 

Don't get me wrong, much of the humour, particularly in this episode, I enjoy. It's just it went just a tad overboard this time. Perhaps it was that the extreme lightheartedness in some scenes was very jarringly different from the rather dark plot of Eda and her mother in others.

 

 

In other news, Nightmare in Silver looks to impress. I've always been a bit of a Cyber-fan - I even liked Closing Time, which apparently a lot of people didn't. Plus Warwick Davies as Porridge, and split personality Cyber Doctor, and Fenric-style chess game, all looks to be, in the words of Susan, rather exhilarating.

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Recently rewatched The Time of Angels/Flesh And Stone, and I have to say, without the freaky mind tricks and Angel Bob, this two-parter wouldn't have been half as frightening as Blink, at least standing on the merits of the Angels themselves. They're just not a threat meant to be subjected to that kind of oversaturation, I think - which is why the Statue of Liberty thing still seems utterly ridiculous to me, even forgetting the plot holes regarding it (there are pictures of it, it's metal, not stone, etc.). Being giant doesn't add anything important to a Weeping Angel's effect as a scary monster.

 

Oh and then I rewatched The Hungry Earth, but I think I've already subjected you to the rant for that episode.

We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget


And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on


We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget


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Seen the latest episode. Basically, The Doctor gets trapped by a super cyberman, and is made to play chess with a sorta evilish verson of him called Mr Clever. You'd think he'd come up with a better name. xD And warwrik davis is in SO YAAAAAAAY. I wont spoil the rest. Also, Season 7 finale next week methinks.

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So, I really enjoyed this weeks episode.

Some good acting and fun characters. The children seemed a bit superfluous at times, and annoyed me a little, but other than that a thoroughly enjoyable episode. The new cybermen look great, and I won't spoil the rest. Anyway, onwards to next weeks finale. I also recommend watching the prequel scene for next week, it's on the site that shall not be named I believe

 

Edited by Arcalis
Well seeing as my old stories are in the archives, and don't see to be reachable, there isn't much for me to put here right now. So hope you are having a good day, and try not to fall into any trans-dimensional portals I guess. Lastly, to round things off with a quote:
"Ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

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I apologise, and have corrected my post

Well seeing as my old stories are in the archives, and don't see to be reachable, there isn't much for me to put here right now. So hope you are having a good day, and try not to fall into any trans-dimensional portals I guess. Lastly, to round things off with a quote:
"Ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

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I have a prediction for the finale- haven't seen the latest ep or the preview yet, so this isn't informed by any spoilers- what if The Doctor sees River Song for the last time? As Moffat has said, we've already seen River's birth, death, wedding, etc, so there isn't much more to tell between these two. But, as is the case with all the Doctor's friends and companions, one day he will have to say goodbye to her forever. Moffat doesn't seem like the type of guy to let the relationship gently peter out, so, how will it all end?

 

Now, the only way The Doctor could tell that he was going to see River again on any given encounter was the fact that they'd swapped time travel notes, and River would mention things he hadn't encountered yet. The Doctor knows his wife is going to die- and in fact, from a certain point of view, is already dead, but there's always the chance to see her again as long as there are adventures left unhad. So, what if they get to the point where there are no more new adventures to tease about?

 

We also know that at some point, The Doctor will tell River his true name- something we haven't seen happen yet. I'm guessing that River will learn his name in the finale. It would make their final meeting more special, and The Doctor would tell it to her out of a sense of necessity, because he knows it is inevitable- not because he wants to. But then, if The Doctor was to make the decision not to tell River his name, would that ensure that there was always one more adventure left with her? River was able to figure out that the first time the Doctor met her would be the last time she saw him, so it's possible that The Doctor would come to a similar conclusion regarding his name.

 

And finally, I sense more callbacks to "The Silence in The Library," particularly regarding Clara, coming up, so that's another reason we might be building up to River's death. Also, the possible romance building up between The Doctor and Clara... wouldn't it be convenient if The Doctor wasn't married any more?

 

All together now... MOFFAT!

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Wow, that's very well thought out. Moffat would definitely make things like that definitive and emotional.

 

Though if Clara becomes another companion to fall in love with the Doctor, more in the sense that Martha did rather than Rose (or River), I'm going to groan. (Luckily I haven't seen much love-swooning, but rather just usual flirting remarks, more innocent than anything really, because that's how the character are.)

 

-CF

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If we get another companion that falls in love with the Doctor, I'm probably going to throw something. The most entertaining companion of the RTD era was Donna Noble. Mickey wasn't quite as memorable, but was still more fun to watch than Rose.

We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget


And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on


We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget


We will remember


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The finale looks very exciting...

 

 

Dr. Simeon(and presumably the Great Intelligence)

 

 

appear.. and I need to go to sleep.

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I tend to agree about the romance bit, although, it is somewhat understandable. It takes a certain type of person to get into a box with a madman, and if you happen to find said madman charming and attractive, it becomes much more likely that you will want to go with him. (Notice that Donna, one of the only new companions not to be romantically interested in The Doctor, actually turned him down the first time.) I suppose there are other reasons for running away in a time machine (adventurous spirit, escaping from something in your life, etc), but I think for a lot of companions, The Doctor's charm would be the deciding factor. And I think it's fair to assume that Rory and Mickey would have had nothing to do with The Doctor had it not been for Amy and Rose. And regardless of your gender or sexual preferences, you probably shouldn't travel with the Eleventh Doctor unless you don't mind being enthusiastically snogged once in a while.

It's hard to imagine Clara wanting to go with the Doctor if he still looked like William Hartnell. Now, whether or not the initial attraction actually becomes a romantic relationship is another matter, as we can see with Amy Pond.

One direction I actually hoped they were going to go in with Clara's character is the idea of a companion who winds up secretly terrified of The Doctor, but never lets on. And when you think about it, a lot of the Doctor's actions towards Clara could come across as creepy if taken out of context (Standing over her bed in "The Bells of St. John", stalking her family in "The Rings of Ahkaten," etc.) There was a mention of Clara putting on a brave face back in "Hide", and "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" had her openly scared by him, but that seems to have been undone. There could be potential for a lot of tension and trust issues behind the sass if they decide to go down that path.

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Methinks that the finale is looking to be an interesting one... and on the whole romance thing, the prequel touches upon it (direct quote from prequle here, so if you are avoiding it and spoilers about it do not open this tab)

Clara says "the trick is not falling in love" which to me indicates that this is a route Moffat is toeing his way towards...

 

Whatever happens, I have faith that the finale is going to leave something to be waited for in the 50th, I mean Moffat is notorious for having cliffhangers to help build up hype (referring mainly to Sherlock there)

Edited by Arcalis
Well seeing as my old stories are in the archives, and don't see to be reachable, there isn't much for me to put here right now. So hope you are having a good day, and try not to fall into any trans-dimensional portals I guess. Lastly, to round things off with a quote:
"Ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

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That was such a good episode! Neil Gaiman needs to write for Doctor Who more often. Also, Matt Smith looked like he was having a lot of fun with the dual role. Interesting that Clara still hasn't bothered to talk to The Doctor about all this Impossible Girl business. Aaaaand the Doctor seems to be forgetting that he's married again. Eyes front, Soldier!

 

Also, based on the preview for next week:

 

 

There was a brief shot of what looked like a tombstone with River Song's name on it, so it lends some weight to my predictions- but then again, River didn't die in Victorian Scotland, so... why the tombstone?

 

 

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Overall I liked Nightmare in Silver, especially that the Cybermen were genuinely scary as a competent threat, but the pacing of the ending seemed a little off. I think it was a tad rushed with Porridge just suddenly saving everyone and fixing all the problems, then a spiel about how lonely it is being emperor of the known universe. I think if some of the time for that speech had been devoted to someone like Clara or one of the soldiers trying to persuade him to do something and stop running away from his problems it could have been better

 

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I agree with you about Gaiman! Pray tell, have you seen the prequel? It's called She said he said if you want to look for it

Well seeing as my old stories are in the archives, and don't see to be reachable, there isn't much for me to put here right now. So hope you are having a good day, and try not to fall into any trans-dimensional portals I guess. Lastly, to round things off with a quote:
"Ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

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There was a mention of Clara putting on a brave face back in "Hide", and "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" had her openly scared by him, but that seems to have been undone. There could be potential for a lot of tension and trust issues behind the sass if they decide to go down that path.

That would be an amazing way for the character to have developed. Especially after Journey, except she forgot it all.

 

Gaiman writing more who would be welcome, though I know he's busy and it took him a while to find time to pen this story. In an interview with him, he said that Moffat asked him to "make the Cybermen scary again" (sic), and he actually wanted them to be silent as opposed to clanky (imagine if they were!). Next he hopes he could create a monster that other writers will be using years later, reinventing it themselves.

I don't think anything will ever be as good as The Doctor's Wife, as that was his "love letter to Doctor Who" (sic), as it can be seen, but as long as he has creative Doctor Who juices he'll be better than some of the writers BBC has.

 

-CF

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My main problem with Moffat is the way he views women and asexuals. He has genuinely said that girls look for a man in their lives even when they're children, while boys play at being heroes and powerful people (never mind the fact that I can recall quite a few times where I played at being an action princess through most of my childhood), and that asexuals are boring. This actually comes out in a lot of his writing. What motives have Amy and Clara had except for the Doctor and Rory?

 

I'm just a little annoyed at the 'love interest' route.

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A character being motivated by love is not inherently a bad thing, as long as it's not the full extent of their characterisation.

 

I think Moffat does try to write "strong female characters," it's just that the definition of that phrase isn't entirely clear. He writes a lot of female characters that are smart, brave, funny, sassy etc, who are entertaining to watch and fun to have tagging along on adventures, but are sometimes difficult to empathise with or understand as characters- the downside to all these mysterious women in the Doctor's life. I've noticed this with Clara in a couple of instances- some of her exchanges with the Doctor, particularly regarding her past incarnations, seem to be designed just to tease the audience rather than to actually advance the plot or develop the character. She just seems to ignore all the hints that something's amiss in favour of more sass and flirting. Then again, I do realise that most of that wasn't written by Moffat himself, and guest writers would be somewhat restricted in terms of how much they could reveal.

 

Likewise with Jenny and Vastra. There's really not a lot that distinguishes Jenny from every other "action girl" ever, although, she hasn't had a lot of screentime yet. Vastra's a bit more interesting, mostly by virtue of being a man-eating lizard version of Sherlock Holmes, but still, the relationship between her and Jenny isn't nearly as developed as it could be.

 

So, when some people say they want "strong female characters," they want ultra-competent heroines who can always hold their own in a dangerous situation. And that's fine. No reason why we shouldn't have that. The trouble is when we start expecting all female characters to fulfill the smart-sassy-brave-strong model, lest they be seen as a bad example if they don't. Which is a tad ridiculous, given that no one would dream of applying those standards to all male characters. Relatable characters need to be realistically flawed, regardless of gender.

 

Hence the other definition of "strong female characters": those that have strong characterisation. I actually think that one of Moffat's best-written female characters is Molly Hooper from Sherlock. She's not a fighter. Her interaction with other characters is mostly motivated by her hopeless crush on Sherlock. She's extremely nervous, quite socially awkward, extremely lonely and can't tell a joke to save her life. And yet she's intelligent, kindhearted and perpetually optimistic in spite of everything that happens to her. Role model? Yes and no. Complex, realistic and engaging character? Absolutely.

 

Which is why I was hoping to see more of Clara's fears and concerns- it would make her relationship with The Doctor more strained, complex and interesting, as well as adding depth to her character. I'm sure that eventually we will see more of that side of her eventually, but I've felt that her introductory season hasn't shown as much development character-wise as, say, Season Five, when Amy was introduced.

 

On the asexuals thing- I continue to believe that Sherlock is asexual, regardless of what Moffat says. Asexuality doesn't make you incapable of forming strong emotional attachments, nor does it protect you from having your heart broken. I'm not going to deny that Sherlock was romantically interested in Irene Adler, it's just that the attraction was clearly intellectual and emotional rather than sexual.

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On the topic of female characters, I don't really have anything much to add. Reread Alyska's post.

 

On the topic of Sherlock Holmes, again, pretty much what Alyska said - and what Sherlock himself said at one point. His focus is his work, and I don't think it's so much that he consciously avoids distractions from that as he doesn't even seriously consider potential distractions as possible options.

We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget


And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on


We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget


We will remember


We all shall follow doom

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On the subject of the Doctor being married, there is the aspect that he was married, in an aborted timeline that technically never existed, what that means is up for debate of course, but I certainly don't think that the Doctor really considers himself in marital union, simply keeping up appearances with River in respect for her and the fact that they were married by Rory and Amy. And on the Sherlock stuff, I agree with Alyska. Sherlock considers the work too important to involve himself in a romantic relationship (or even take the time to consider it.) Hence his semi-hostility towards poor Molly's advances.

Well seeing as my old stories are in the archives, and don't see to be reachable, there isn't much for me to put here right now. So hope you are having a good day, and try not to fall into any trans-dimensional portals I guess. Lastly, to round things off with a quote:
"Ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

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I think the problem often implied when people say they want a "strong female character" is that what they seem to be looking for is basically a woman that acts like man. I'm not saying thats what Neelh specifically is suggesting, its just something I've noticed; that a female character can only be "strong" in some peoples' eyes by not being female anymore.

Personally, I just look for characters. Don't much care what gender they are

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Well, even saying stuff like "this is how men act, this is how women act, that woman isn't acting like a woman" can be problematic, but you're right in that conventionally feminine traits are often demonised, even by so-called feminists.

 

And in many ways, the all-powerful Mary Sue action heroine archetype can be just as damaging as the damsel in distress. It sends the message that a woman has to be superhumanly competent at everything to even be considered equal to her male peers, and any sign of weakness is unforgivable. Now, I wouldn't say any of the female characters in the current series of Doctor Who go quite that far, although the older versions of River skirt quite close to it sometimes. Then again, we know that River is deliberately concealing her vulnerable side from The Doctor, so there's a little bit more depth there.

 

Like you said, characterisation is key, and writing interesting characters should always take priority over providing female role models or trying to represent an entire gender through one character.

3DS Friend Code: 0018-0767-4231

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D'you know, I've only just noticed the Cybermen have a new look! I know, I am rather slow.

 

Meanwhile.... I think I know what the Doctor's name is: Dr. Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch! (only joking, it's got to be Who.)

~ CHTrilogy

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D'you know, I've only just noticed the Cybermen have a new look! I know, I am rather slow.

 

Meanwhile.... I think I know what the Doctor's name is: Dr. Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch! (only joking, it's got to be Who.)

I wouldn't be surprised if it's "Who." That way when people say "look it's Doctor Who" or "I'm cosplaying Doctor Who," they would technically be right.

Plus in Hide when the guy asked "Doctor who?" the Doctor replied, "If you prefer."

 

-CF

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