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Elements That Just Didn't Work

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#1 Offline Elrond of Rivendell

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Posted Mar 08 2012 - 12:24 PM

Soooooo...... Two part question. Why do you think some elements are completely the same (magnetism is really just an aspect of controlling iron etc.)? Second question: why do you think there weren't more element lords, as jungle is not the same as air, and sand not the same as earth-BaneNOTICE: The second question has been answered by this post; this topic is now only about the first question (Also, please be aware that no two elements are completely the same; this is discussing why some are more similar than others). Also, everyone reading this topic should also read this current topic: Elements & Names, because several of you have been asking questions here that have just been answered in there; let's avoid repetition spam. Thanks. :) --bones

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 11 2012 - 03:08 AM.

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#2 Offline Alex Turner

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Posted Mar 08 2012 - 02:09 PM

Earth, stone, sand and rock were all EXACTLY THE SAME. I don't care what anyone says, the scientist in me insists that if you control rock or stone, you control 'earth', if you want to call it that. Sand is just tiny rocks.I guess the Great Beings invented more elements when they created the MU to build on the six they already had.
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#3 Offline The Renegade Emperor

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Posted Mar 08 2012 - 02:11 PM

Well, those are nice question. About the second I can't tell anything, as far as I don't know anything or at least can think about the reasons for that, but about the first I suppose this happens like a "class-subclass" thing, dunno if you can understand me. Also, Wotsiznaim's right. I said all I could say.----- Lord of the Rings -----Titles: Dark Lord, Lord of Mordor, Lord of Gifts, Lord of Barad-Dûr, Lord of the Earth
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#4 Offline The Dandy Automaton

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Posted Mar 08 2012 - 02:25 PM

Earth, stone, sand and rock were all EXACTLY THE SAME.

Wait, those last two. People have been saying they're all different? That makes me unhappy.Toa of Gravity and Psionics annoy me. Not because I dislike them, just because they render the Suletu and the Garai useless. Or vice versa. Either way, the presence of those masks is pointless.

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#5 Offline Kojol

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Posted Mar 08 2012 - 03:58 PM

Earth, stone, sand and rock were all EXACTLY THE SAME. I don't care what anyone says, the scientist in me insists that if you control rock or stone, you control 'earth', if you want to call it that. Sand is just tiny rocks.I guess the Great Beings invented more elements when they created the MU to build on the six they already had.

Well, sand and rock are Bara Magna-exclusive, Earth and Stone are MU-exclusive, so calling Stone and Rock the same is pointless.Sand and Rock may be the same thing on a microscopic level, but the way that they're controlled is very different. Science is irrelevant, BIONICLE is and always has been fantasy more than sci-fi.Earth and Stone are very different. Earth controls dirt, Stone controls rock. Similarly, water and ice may be the same thing from a scientific perspective, but Toa of Ice control only solid water, and toa of Water only liquid water.The reason for there being an artificial distinction between the elements is because, in story, the Great Beings made artificial distinctions between them.The only one I don't understand is Fire/Plasma: What, exactly, is the distinction?

Toa of Gravity and Psionics annoy me. Not because I dislike them, just because they render the Suletu and the Garai useless. Or vice versa. Either way, the presence of those masks is pointless.

Anybody can use a Suletu or Garai, even if there are no Ce-Toa or Ba-Toa around, both of which are fairly rare.The lack of Element Lords is explained as the Element Lords being elementally-powered lords of the six Bara Magna tribes. There's not an Air Element Lord because there's no Air tribe to lord over.

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#6 Offline Elrond of Rivendell

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Posted Mar 08 2012 - 04:58 PM

Earth, stone, sand and rock were all EXACTLY THE SAME. I don't care what anyone says, the scientist in me insists that if you control rock or stone, you control 'earth', if you want to call it that. Sand is just tiny rocks.I guess the Great Beings invented more elements when they created the MU to build on the six they already had.

Well, sand and rock are Bara Magna-exclusive, Earth and Stone are MU-exclusive, so calling Stone and Rock the same is pointless.Sand and Rock may be the same thing on a microscopic level, but the way that they're controlled is very different. Science is irrelevant, BIONICLE is and always has been fantasy more than sci-fi.Earth and Stone are very different. Earth controls dirt, Stone controls rock.Similarly, water and ice may be the same thing from a scientific perspective, but Toa of Ice control only solid water, and toa of Water only liquid water.The reason for there being an artificial distinction between the elements is because, in story, the Great Beings made artificial distinctions between them.The only one I don't understand is Fire/Plasma: What, exactly, is the distinction?

Toa of Gravity and Psionics annoy me. Not because I dislike them, just because they render the Suletu and the Garai useless. Or vice versa. Either way, the presence of those masks is pointless.

Anybody can use a Suletu or Garai, even if there are no Ce-Toa or Ba-Toa around, both of which are fairly rare.The lack of Element Lords is explained as the Element Lords being elementally-powered lords of the six Bara Magna tribes. There's not an Air Element Lord because there's no Air tribe to lord over.

Fire is superheated air fueled by oxygen, while plasma is some superheated material, preferably stone, super heated to a gas.As to the element lords, what about the "fe" agori? is there an iron element lord?:sarcasm:-bane

Edited by Rocka's Bane, Mar 08 2012 - 04:59 PM.

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#7 Offline Black Six

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 06:02 AM

Moving to Storyline and Theories...
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#8 Offline Axilus Prime

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 06:33 AM

Earth, stone, sand and rock were all EXACTLY THE SAME. I don't care what anyone says, the scientist in me insists that if you control rock or stone, you control 'earth', if you want to call it that. Sand is just tiny rocks.I guess the Great Beings invented more elements when they created the MU to build on the six they already had.

Rock and stone were the same. Earth was SOIL, DIRT, NOT ROCK-STONE. (Did I lapse into treespeak?)Sand is technically made of something other than most ("common rock", if you will) rock, silicate/something/whatever. But it is always mixed with tiny "common rock" when you find it on the beach.As for magnetism and iron, Toa can't levitate their elements. (Ever seen Pohatu fly around on a rock platform?) Iron was the creation of metal and bending of it, Magnetism was...well, magnetism. Fire and Plasma are also different. Plasma seemed to just melt into things, fire spreads and well..SETS things on fire.

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 02:03 PM

Soooooo...... Two part question. Why do you think some elements are completely the same (magnetism is really just an aspect of controlling iron etc.)?

Earth, stone, sand and rock were all EXACTLY THE SAME. I don't care what anyone says, the scientist in me insists that if you control rock or stone, you control 'earth', if you want to call it that. Sand is just tiny rocks.

Sigh.... :P Guys, sorry, but both of those are misconceptions. And frankly, that's not really a "scientific" approach. :P Science should mean thinking carefully about things, not saying things like "I don't care what anyone says." Pet peeve. :lol:But to answer these:1) Magnetism controls the energy force. NOT metal specifically. Yes, it can be used to control metal indirectly, but not MAKE metal. Only manipulate certain metals. And this logic should really nuke all elements if applied consistently. The truth is you can use just about ANY element to indirectly move any other element. For example, make a rock, and control it telekinetically so it pushes metal around. Does that make rock and metal the same? Of course not. Or as we saw in MOL, you can use light to split rock -- they're clearly very different.Also, magnetism can control things besides metal, although these uses are admittedly more obscure. It can bend light (old-style TVs used this to major effect for example), and electricity. In fact if any elements were to be seen as the same as magnetism it should be electricity and light because all three are part of the electromagnetic force.The simple answer to all such questions is that the GBs designed the elements to control whatever would be seen as major "aspects of nature" to the Matoran, especially ones that could have distinct uses in maintaining the giant robot. So it makes sense to separate light, magnetism, electricity, and metal (esp. light and metal). Because metal is a very different aspect of nature from magnetism from the Matoran's practical perspective. The fact that they're more closely related on a subatomic scale and have other things in common is basically irrelevant.2) The difference in particle size between stone and dirt does have major large-scale effects for the Matoran. Again, your approach fails to realize that the purpose of the elements is everyday practical uses, and heroic uses, on a "Matoran and Toa scale", not trivial technicalities on the atomic scale. :PAs for the Element Lords, probably the real-world reason is Greg didn't want to overload the story with too many characters and stuff. In-story, the short answer is the GBs just felt like it. :P Also they seem to have a thing for numbers, six being a favorite especially.Kojol, science is NOT irrelevant. Another pet peeve. :P There are easy ways to explain that scientifically. For example, add a layer of coding in the power that filters for particle size for Earth/Sand/Stone. :)And ice controls cold energy and water; it can control both, or just cold, but not just water. To be clear.

Fire is superheated air fueled by oxygen, while plasma is some superheated material, preferably stone, super heated to a gas.

No, plasma is only a gas too (common misconception); though since it's superheated it can melt stone easily. The difference is simply that fire runs on a chemical reaction like real fire, whereas plasma is simply superheated (a lot hotter than fire, so more dangerous but more effective in some situations) gas.Fire contains flammable material plus heat, while plasma contains superheat plus Air.Yes, they're confusing, and I probably would have just made them the same myself, but again, think about the Matoran's perspective, etc. It does make sense to have a more casual, less dangerous version, and a version for extreme situations.Edit: Actually Tahu Nuva Golden, Toa can levitate their elements, and have on many occasions. Shooting a beam of ice for example. It's simply harder with heavier elements so they use alternatives when possible (and it often is possible).

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 09 2012 - 11:30 PM.

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#10 Offline Alex Turner

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 02:40 PM

Science should mean thinking carefully about things, not saying things like "I don't care what anyone says." Pet peeve. :lol:

Shh, I was trying to sound clever :P

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#11 Offline Kojol

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 03:09 PM

Kojol, science is NOT irrelevant. Another pet peeve. :P There are easy ways to explain that scientifically. For example, add a layer of coding in the power that filters for particle size for Earth/Sand/Stone. :)

Scientific realism is very obviously not the focus (see: Mata Nui robot). It's softer sci-fi than Doctor Who. As such, claiming that something shouldn't work the way it does in-story because of scientific fact is just an exercise in futility.

Fire is superheated air fueled by oxygen, while plasma is some superheated material, preferably stone, super heated to a gas.

No, plasma is only a gas too (common misconception); though since it's superheated it can melt stone easily. The difference is simply that fire runs on a chemical reaction like real fire, whereas plasma is simply superheated (a lot hotter than fire, so more dangerous but more effective in some situations) gas.

Plasma is a state of matter - ionized gas - which fire is one form of. It's like having a Toa of Liquids and a Toa of Water.And yes, I recognize the [removed]. It's just that I can't really see how the two elements are used differently.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 09 2012 - 11:38 PM.
Let's stay civil, okay? No reason to throw insults around. It's just fiction/entertainment. :) --bones

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#12 Offline Sumiki

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 05:09 PM

Remember when they were on the verge of canonizing Kinetics as an element? I hated that idea, and I still do. I'm relieved that it wasn't accepted into the canon.But it got me thinking.I dislike the use of elements that can't be fired in a straight line. Greg retconned this principle, and I wish he hadn't. Gravity waves exist inour real-life version of physics, so I'm fine with it as an element. Sonics is also okay. I don't like Psionics, though, or Magnetism. Psionics especially bothers me, for I feel like it's better served as a "sub-power" rather than a full-blown element.I've long been a supporter of Crystal as an element instead of Psionics, and I would much rather have had the former introduced into the canon.
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#13 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 08:49 PM

I'm fine with most of the elements, though I wish some of them had more unique color schemes. Like Psionics, for example. Three elements with the color blue just seems a little... redundant, in my opinion.To the people saying Magnetism and Iron: Magnetism can do things that Iron can't. For example, a Toa of Magnetism can achieve limited flight. Likewise, a Toa of Iron can do things that a Toa of Magnetism can't, such as shooting swords out of their hands.
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#14 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 09:36 PM

Magnetism =/= iron. Magnetism affects iron, but is not elemental iron. Oh, and Pohatu levitated a rock once. Gorast trapped him in it, which was why he didn't throw or kick it normally.
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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 09 2012 - 11:45 PM

Scientific realism is very obviously not the focus (see: Mata Nui robot).

That's not entirely true. Greg has said that the Bionicle definition of magic is basically science you don't understand. :) It often doesn't go for explaining it (partly for mystery, partly so as not to confuse the young'uns), but that doesn't mean it's supposed to be nonsense. :) I have referred to it as "science fantasy", which is just another term for what Greg said, just more concise. :) Some of its physics are obviously fictional, but that too is not unrealistic scientifically. It's another universe, and there are real scientific theories that physics need not be the same in each universe. ^_^Also, dunno if you heard of it, but I have talked a lot about a theory I call the "cyberclay" theory that explain just about everything about the giant robot in scientific terms. :) Had a topic on it on the old forum.

Plasma is a state of matter - ionized gas - which fire is one form of. It's like having a Toa of Liquids and a Toa of Water.

You're confusing the real-world term "plasma" (and that's just one term spelled that way; it can also refer to, for example, blood plasma which is totally unrelated except for sharing fluid dynamics with gas) with the Bionicle element name Plasma.Again, Fire refers to a chemical reaction (the method of making it a "plasma"), and Plasma refers to gas that does NOT use a chemical reaction but goes "direct" with superheat (the different method of making it a "plasma"). :) Yes, it's confusing, but it's not like a Toa of Liquids and Water. That would be a category and an item in the category, but this is two different items within a larger category. Different animal. :)And again, the practical difference is that Fire is safer to use in normal situations, but less powerful for extreme ones, while the superheat of Plasma is vice versa.

Remember when they were on the verge of canonizing Kinetics as an element? I hated that idea, and I still do. I'm relieved that it wasn't accepted into the canon.But it got me thinking.I dislike the use of elements that can't be fired in a straight line. Greg retconned this principle, and I wish he hadn't. Gravity waves exist inour real-life version of physics, so I'm fine with it as an element. Sonics is also okay. I don't like Psionics, though, or Magnetism. Psionics especially bothers me, for I feel like it's better served as a "sub-power" rather than a full-blown element.I've long been a supporter of Crystal as an element instead of Psionics, and I would much rather have had the former introduced into the canon.

Personally I would prefer a variety of elements, pleasing various fans' personal tastes, including Crystal and Kinetics. :) But more on-topic, all elements can technically be fired in a straight line. It's less real-world grounded this way, but they all have elemental energy, and this can be fired in a line, prior to turning it into the element itself. This can work for Magnetism and Psionics too. It is different than Fire, though, granted, and that personal preference is valid.I'm curious why, though, you were okay with Gravity and Sonics and not Magnetism? Psionics I get because it's weird, but Magnetism is just like Gravity and Sonics as energy. You mentioned being okay with gravity because it's in our physics, so why not Magnetism too?Also out of curiosity, what would you put Psionics as a sub-power of? That's an interesting take I don't recall hearing before. Life, maybe?But anyways, I like the idea of Psionics as a fictional element. We have Shadow and cold energy, and all kinds of other fictional energies, why not Psionics energy too? :) It's a cool idea if you have an open mind about it (but not too open lest you be mind-controled :P). Personally I think most of the dislike of it is just because it's so different, and some people have trouble adjusting to change. But different can be good. :)

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 09 2012 - 11:48 PM.

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#16 Offline Elrond of Rivendell

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 08:36 AM

Scientific realism is very obviously not the focus (see: Mata Nui robot).

That's not entirely true. Greg has said that the Bionicle definition of magic is basically science you don't understand. :) It often doesn't go for explaining it (partly for mystery, partly so as not to confuse the young'uns), but that doesn't mean it's supposed to be nonsense. :) I have referred to it as "science fantasy", which is just another term for what Greg said, just more concise. :) Some of its physics are obviously fictional, but that too is not unrealistic scientifically. It's another universe, and there are real scientific theories that physics need not be the same in each universe. ^_^Also, dunno if you heard of it, but I have talked a lot about a theory I call the "cyberclay" theory that explain just about everything about the giant robot in scientific terms. :) Had a topic on it on the old forum.

Plasma is a state of matter - ionized gas - which fire is one form of. It's like having a Toa of Liquids and a Toa of Water.

You're confusing the real-world term "plasma" (and that's just one term spelled that way; it can also refer to, for example, blood plasma which is totally unrelated except for sharing fluid dynamics with gas) with the Bionicle element name Plasma.Again, Fire refers to a chemical reaction (the method of making it a "plasma"), and Plasma refers to gas that does NOT use a chemical reaction but goes "direct" with superheat (the different method of making it a "plasma"). :) Yes, it's confusing, but it's not like a Toa of Liquids and Water. That would be a category and an item in the category, but this is two different items within a larger category. Different animal. :)And again, the practical difference is that Fire is safer to use in normal situations, but less powerful for extreme ones, while the superheat of Plasma is vice versa.

Remember when they were on the verge of canonizing Kinetics as an element? I hated that idea, and I still do. I'm relieved that it wasn't accepted into the canon.But it got me thinking.I dislike the use of elements that can't be fired in a straight line. Greg retconned this principle, and I wish he hadn't. Gravity waves exist inour real-life version of physics, so I'm fine with it as an element. Sonics is also okay. I don't like Psionics, though, or Magnetism. Psionics especially bothers me, for I feel like it's better served as a "sub-power" rather than a full-blown element.I've long been a supporter of Crystal as an element instead of Psionics, and I would much rather have had the former introduced into the canon.

Personally I would prefer a variety of elements, pleasing various fans' personal tastes, including Crystal and Kinetics. :) But more on-topic, all elements can technically be fired in a straight line. It's less real-world grounded this way, but they all have elemental energy, and this can be fired in a line, prior to turning it into the element itself. This can work for Magnetism and Psionics too. It is different than Fire, though, granted, and that personal preference is valid.I'm curious why, though, you were okay with Gravity and Sonics and not Magnetism? Psionics I get because it's weird, but Magnetism is just like Gravity and Sonics as energy. You mentioned being okay with gravity because it's in our physics, so why not Magnetism too?Also out of curiosity, what would you put Psionics as a sub-power of? That's an interesting take I don't recall hearing before. Life, maybe?But anyways, I like the idea of Psionics as a fictional element. We have Shadow and cold energy, and all kinds of other fictional energies, why not Psionics energy too? :) It's a cool idea if you have an open mind about it (but not too open lest you be mind-controled :P). Personally I think most of the dislike of it is just because it's so different, and some people have trouble adjusting to change. But different can be good. :)

BTW, I didn't say they were all subcategories of others, but sometimes they do seem a little too close for comfort. But, I see your point. I looked at the old forums, but not as much as I do now, I wasn't a member.P.S: as for the second question, I still wonder why they didn't include a Fe-element lord. They were a valid tribe, but maybe he just died like the other agori. Any Ideas?-Bane

Edited by Rocka's Bane, Mar 10 2012 - 08:40 AM.

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#17 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 04:19 PM

But anyways, I like the idea of Psionics as a fictional element. We have Shadow and cold energy, and all kinds of other fictional energies, why not Psionics energy too? :) It's a cool idea if you have an open mind about it (but not too open lest you be mind-controled :P). Personally I think most of the dislike of it is just because it's so different, and some people have trouble adjusting to change. But different can be good. :)

Well, if you get into quantum entanglement and the esp theories, Psionics might not be that fictional.

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#18 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 06:51 PM

Lightning. Isn't it just electricity?
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#19 Offline Erebus

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 06:57 PM

As to the element lords, what about the "fe" agori? is there an iron element lord?:sarcasm:-bane

The majority of the Iron Tribe was wiped out before the Great Beings could modify an Iron Tribe member into an Element Lord, thus no Element Lord of Iron. I really wished there had been, though.There was also a proposal to add Sand as a Toa Element, but the majority of the active BZP members at the time did not like the idea.

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#20 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 07:23 PM

But anyways, I like the idea of Psionics as a fictional element. We have Shadow and cold energy, and all kinds of other fictional energies, why not Psionics energy too? :) It's a cool idea if you have an open mind about it (but not too open lest you be mind-controled :P). Personally I think most of the dislike of it is just because it's so different, and some people have trouble adjusting to change. But different can be good. :)

Well, if you get into quantum entanglement and the esp theories, Psionics might not be that fictional.

Well maybe. :P I"ve got theories about that myself. :P But it can be done in fictional ways that are scientifically plausible -- simply haven't ever been used (yet) :P in real life. That's mainly what I was trying to point out.For example, technology is now already taking baby steps in letting us manipulate technology by use of brain waves. At this point we can't translate what we read into "normal thoughts" -- the method of control is quite different from normal thoughts. But it does demonstrate that the basic principle might be plausible, and then if that were to connect to another machine that could translate the tech signals back, basic telepathy is possible. And if we presume tech to make energy fields, including telekinetic, were also invented, hook it up to those and you can do everything Psionics can do, with real science. :)

Lightning. Isn't it just electricity?

As is being discussed in another topic open right now here in S&T, Electricity is just a synonym of Lightning. It's not two different elements.

As to the element lords, what about the "fe" agori? is there an iron element lord?:sarcasm:-bane

The majority of the Iron Tribe was wiped out before the Great Beings could modify an Iron Tribe member into an Element Lord, thus no Element Lord of Iron. I really wished there had been, though.There was also a proposal to add Sand as a Toa Element, but the majority of the active BZP members at the time did not like the idea.

I was thinking that too about the EL, just wasn't sure enough on the timing to bring it up lol. But thanks for the answer.

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#21 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 09:35 PM

Lightning. Isn't it just electricity?

As is being discussed in another topic open right now here in S&T, Electricity is just a synonym of Lightning. It's not two different elements.

What I meant was that it would have been easier to just have electricity. Or can a Toa of Lightning also control electricity?

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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 10 2012 - 10:28 PM

Lightning. Isn't it just electricity?

As is being discussed in another topic open right now here in S&T, Electricity is just a synonym of Lightning. It's not two different elements.

What I meant was that it would have been easier to just have electricity. Or can a Toa of Lightning also control electricity?

Yes...Well, it's not like they have electrical wires or generators in the MU or SM, so we haven't really seen it. The only manifestation of electrical energy in the MU that I know of is lightning. Still, control of said manifestation would likely imply control over its component parts, the same way control over fire implies control over heat.

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#23 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 11 2012 - 03:11 AM

Yeah, knuckles, I've already just posted a lot on why they used the name "Lightning" instead of Electricity in that other topic. Really, everybody reading this topic is strongly advised to read all posts in that topic before replying here, so I've edited a note about this and the link into the firstpost here. :)Short answer: "Lightning" sounds more natural and dramatic, better fits Toa, while "Electricity" sounds more robotic, better fits Kal. But they mean the same thing.
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#24 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Mar 11 2012 - 10:40 AM

Lightning. Isn't it just electricity?

As is being discussed in another topic open right now here in S&T, Electricity is just a synonym of Lightning. It's not two different elements.

What I meant was that it would have been easier to just have electricity. Or can a Toa of Lightning also control electricity?

Yes...Well, it's not like they have electrical wires or generators in the MU or SM, so we haven't really seen it. The only manifestation of electrical energy in the MU that I know of is lightning.Still, control of said manifestation would likely imply control over its component parts, the same way control over fire implies control over heat.

If there is no electricity to be manipulated, how did Tahnok-Kal do it?Edit: Nevermind, Bonesiii answered my question. XD

Edited by knuckles chaotix, Mar 11 2012 - 10:41 AM.

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#25 Offline Parazan

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Posted Mar 11 2012 - 03:25 PM

There's been only used a couple of elements,but i'd be cool to see more elements from the periodic table(like Gold).Posted ImageParticularily,what if ALL elements on the periodic table(at least the natural ones) were BIONICLE elements as well?-CDP
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#26 Offline Elrond of Rivendell

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Posted Mar 11 2012 - 04:21 PM

There's been only used a couple of elements,but i'd be cool to see more elements from the periodic table(like Gold).Posted ImageParticularily,what if ALL elements on the periodic table(at least the natural ones) were BIONICLE elements as well?-CDP

Here would be the problem:Even though Bonesii has answered (at least, I understand his answer) the question, the fact is that if you used all the elements of the periodic table, elements like metal would be so specific that it would take the fun out of having an elemental power. It would be like having a toa of plant control only control certain types of flowers. Besides that, it would be way too complicated-BaneP.S. I think a toa of radioactivity would be cool, but it would sort of be the same as a toa of energized protodermis in that world

Edited by Rocka's Bane, Mar 11 2012 - 04:25 PM.

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#27 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Mar 11 2012 - 04:27 PM

Keep in mind that there is a difference between chemical elements and classical elements. Classical elements refer more to things like fire, water, earth, etc. which is what most elemental themes in fiction go by.

Edited by Anti Nui, Mar 11 2012 - 04:27 PM.

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#28 Offline Katuko

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Posted Mar 13 2012 - 05:23 PM

Yes, classical elements are basically the building blocks of reality, the forces of nature, the various broad concepts we categorize things into. That said; Redcloak, an evil goblin cleric from Order of the Stick, were more of a pragmatist and essentially told his troops: "Don't blame me for knowing science. As if the classical elements are all that exist. Also, fire shouldn't even count. It's a chemical reaction, not a material."This was just after he had summoned up some Titanium Elementals to launch with catapults, because they were lighter yet stronger than rock. Then he unleashed Chlorine once they breached the castle courtyards...But as funny as that was, in BIONICLE I want to stick to the "classics". :P
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#29 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 13 2012 - 07:52 PM

Also, this is a kid's toyline, people. Having chemical elements versus classical elements would confusing and over-the-top complicated. There are way too many elements in that table - and people complain now about Bionicle having underused characters that didn't have enough development. Having even one Toa for each of the chemical elements would be way too many characters, and how are you going to explain a Toa of Oxygen to little kids, much less more complicated stuff like arsenic and mercury? And besides, save schoolwork for school, please. :) I like my story here - the classic elements are a bit more intuitive, and I don't want to have to think about my Honors Chemistry class in order to understand a story. Some people might want to think about such things, but most would rather not, and Bionicle was going for mass appeal.
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#30 Offline Toa Xemnas of Crystal

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Posted Mar 15 2012 - 08:33 PM

Ah, elements... I remembered when I was reading BS01 one day, and Psionics popped up. I'm all like, what the heck? How is this an element? To this day, Psionics has been my least favorite element. The others I'm fine with, but Psionics... eh...
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#31 Offline ZippyWharrgarbl

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Posted Mar 17 2012 - 08:44 PM

I always thought that the element Iron wasn't restricted to Iron. Firstly, seeing as everything is made of protodermis in the MU, the element would just be silly. Secondly, Toa of Fire also can control heat. Toa of Lightning are not just limited to making lightning bolts zoosh out of the sky. So, why couldn't Iron just be used as a general term?
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#32 Offline Katuko

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Posted Mar 17 2012 - 08:49 PM

Iron is just a "poetic" name for metal. The element controls all types of metal, and that has been canon since it was introduced, I believe. Especially since some form of steel is a lot more common than "mere" iron in BIONICLE.
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#33 Offline Corvus

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 04:22 PM

Well, IMHO, stone is used to control solid rock, earth is used to control ground up rock or severely decayed organic matter. Rock, I imagine, was a prototype combo of stone and earth, and the GB's nixed sand because it was obsolute. "The internet" says that all materials are affected by magnetism to some degree, if their electrons are aligned properly. It's just easier for metal, specifically iron, to align properly. So in theory, Magnetism could affect other materials, not just iron/metal. I always saw Bionicle plasma as a liquid element that generates its own source of heat. Kind of like acid, except instead of breaking things down, it melts them."If you're wondering how the elements workand other science factsThen repeat to yourself:It's just a toy line, I really should relax"
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#34 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 04:30 PM

I always saw Bionicle plasma as a liquid element that generates its own source of heat. Kind of like acid, except instead of breaking things down, it melts them.

Sort of correct but it's a gas, not a liquid. It's the fourth state of matter, basically; solid is cool, liquid is warmer, gas is even hotter, and plasma is super-hot.Also it's not that the substance generates heat but the Toa generates superheat as well as gas, so the combination is Plasma.It does tend to melt solid things, though, such as stone to lava, since it's so hot. :)

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#35 Offline Corvus

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 04:35 PM

I always saw Bionicle plasma as a liquid element that generates its own source of heat. Kind of like acid, except instead of breaking things down, it melts them.

Sort of correct but it's a gas, not a liquid. It's the fourth state of matter, basically; solid is cool, liquid is warmer, gas is even hotter, and plasma is super-hot.Also it's not that the substance generates heat but the Toa generates superheat as well as gas, so the combination is Plasma.It does tend to melt solid things, though, such as stone to lava, since it's so hot. :)

Oh, so Toa of Plasma are basically overpowered Toa of Fire? http://www.bzpower.c...tyle_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif

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#36 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 06:12 PM

I always saw Bionicle plasma as a liquid element that generates its own source of heat. Kind of like acid, except instead of breaking things down, it melts them.

Sort of correct but it's a gas, not a liquid. It's the fourth state of matter, basically; solid is cool, liquid is warmer, gas is even hotter, and plasma is super-hot.Also it's not that the substance generates heat but the Toa generates superheat as well as gas, so the combination is Plasma.It does tend to melt solid things, though, such as stone to lava, since it's so hot. :)

Oh, so Toa of Plasma are basically overpowered Toa of Fire? http://www.bzpower.c...tyle_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif

No. Fire is a specific chemical reaction between fuel (combustible matter) and air. Plasma is an entirely different super-hot substance.Toa of Fire can heat things up or start the chemical reaction of fire or launch items composed of that chemical reaction (fire balls, fire cage). Toa of Plasma use a specific super-hot substance; this substance can be produced, controlled, absorbed, and manipulated by them. This manipulation may result in the chemical reaction commonly known as fire, but it can have other results, like melting though solid rock, instant vaporization of water, or just eating though and destroying whatever it touches, which would likely preclude the result of fire. While Toa of Fire may be able to melt though substances, this would be more difficult for them than the wielder of Plasma. Further, if the use of the Element of Plasma does result in fire, the theoretical Toa of Plasma would be unable to control the fire in any direct manner.

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#37 Offline Corvus

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 07:50 PM

I always saw Bionicle plasma as a liquid element that generates its own source of heat. Kind of like acid, except instead of breaking things down, it melts them.

Sort of correct but it's a gas, not a liquid. It's the fourth state of matter, basically; solid is cool, liquid is warmer, gas is even hotter, and plasma is super-hot.Also it's not that the substance generates heat but the Toa generates superheat as well as gas, so the combination is Plasma.It does tend to melt solid things, though, such as stone to lava, since it's so hot. :)

Oh, so Toa of Plasma are basically overpowered Toa of Fire? http://www.bzpower.c...tyle_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif

No. Fire is a specific chemical reaction between fuel (combustible matter) and air. Plasma is an entirely different super-hot substance.Toa of Fire can heat things up or start the chemical reaction of fire or launch items composed of that chemical reaction (fire balls, fire cage).Toa of Plasma use a specific super-hot substance; this substance can be produced, controlled, absorbed, and manipulated by them. This manipulation may result in the chemical reaction commonly known as fire, but it can have other results, like melting though solid rock, instant vaporization of water, or just eating though and destroying whatever it touches, which would likely preclude the result of fire.While Toa of Fire may be able to melt though substances, this would be more difficult for them than the wielder of Plasma. Further, if the use of the Element of Plasma does result in fire, the theoretical Toa of Plasma would be unable to control the fire in any direct manner.

Ah. So, what's the difference between fire and plasma, anyway? Not the Toa, the substances. Plasma is just hotter and kinda more liquidy? And what is fire made out of anyway?

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#38 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 08:05 PM

I always saw Bionicle plasma as a liquid element that generates its own source of heat. Kind of like acid, except instead of breaking things down, it melts them.

Sort of correct but it's a gas, not a liquid. It's the fourth state of matter, basically; solid is cool, liquid is warmer, gas is even hotter, and plasma is super-hot.Also it's not that the substance generates heat but the Toa generates superheat as well as gas, so the combination is Plasma.It does tend to melt solid things, though, such as stone to lava, since it's so hot. :)

Oh, so Toa of Plasma are basically overpowered Toa of Fire? http://www.bzpower.c...tyle_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif

No. Fire is a specific chemical reaction between fuel (combustible matter) and air. Plasma is an entirely different super-hot substance.Toa of Fire can heat things up or start the chemical reaction of fire or launch items composed of that chemical reaction (fire balls, fire cage).Toa of Plasma use a specific super-hot substance; this substance can be produced, controlled, absorbed, and manipulated by them. This manipulation may result in the chemical reaction commonly known as fire, but it can have other results, like melting though solid rock, instant vaporization of water, or just eating though and destroying whatever it touches, which would likely preclude the result of fire.While Toa of Fire may be able to melt though substances, this would be more difficult for them than the wielder of Plasma. Further, if the use of the Element of Plasma does result in fire, the theoretical Toa of Plasma would be unable to control the fire in any direct manner.

Ah. So, what's the difference between fire and plasma, anyway? Not the Toa, the substances. Plasma is just hotter and kinda more liquidy? And what is fire made out of anyway?

Fire is not a substance. It is a chemical reaction between hydrogen (found in fuel) and oxygen (found in air).Plasma is a super-hot ionized gas. It is not a liquid.

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#39 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 01 2012 - 10:25 PM

Lemme clarify the above like this -- to your question, "So Plasma is superpowered Fire" -- I wouldn't say no, but rather kinda. :PTo use more detail, how I have clarified it before is to think of three terms. One of them must stay lower-case and have quotes around it -- "plasma" -- this refers to the state of matter. This is NOT a term in Matoran; this is the real-world English science term.The other two must be capitalized; Fire and Plasma -- these ARE the terms in Matoran for the two elements.Both Fire and Plasma are "plasma." They are gas that is heated so that it glows. But the method of heating is different.Fire uses a chemical reaction to get the heat, and isn't all that hot. Fire Toa are more versatile, able to adapt to more situations, but less able to handle extreme situations.By contrast, Plasma creates the heat directly, with no reaction, and is super-hot. Plasma Toa can't do as many tricks with their element, but are better suited to extreme situations (like if you need to melt rock).fisher's examples of what they can and can't do are correct so nothing to add there. But does this answer your latest question? :)

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 01 2012 - 10:27 PM.

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#40 Offline TrueshadowX01

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Posted Apr 02 2012 - 12:49 AM

I always thought that plasma was just pure heat energy which was generally used much like in most sci-fi games such as halo or mass-effect. I never really had much of an issue with plasma; I viewed it to be pretty straightforward. I'm pretty sure most people can tell the difference between a blue (or green) plasma bolt and a fireball. It's quite simple, a toa of plasma and a toa of fire are both limited to a range of abilities of which only they are able to control heat in certain ways. For example, a toa of plasma cannot create a flamethrower effect, while a toa of fire can't produce a superheated concentrated burst of heated air. Although, theoretically, they could possibly learn how to do these other range of abilities but it may require a lot of training, just like the av-matoran in using light abilities. So generally, depending on what element they possess as their primary is what they naturally are able to control with little effort, while they might be able to simulate other abilities similar to a toa of a similar element, it requires more effort and concentration. Another thing concerning elements in general (in Bionicle), I don't think "element" mean exactly the same in the Matoran world and ours. For example, it seems more as if "elemental powers" refers to different aspect of matter and/or energy combined with an idea of controlling that specific matter and/or energy in a particular and limited way, while our elements are divided up into the atomic level or the simplest forms. P.S. I forgot what primary and secondary colors a toa of plasma and Electricity are; could someone please remind me.
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