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Elements That Just Didn't Work

Elements

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#41 Offline Katuko

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Posted Apr 02 2012 - 07:48 AM

Plasma is orange and white, electricity is blue and white.In my book, an "element" is defined as the ability to create, control and absorb a specific material or force. So a Rahkshi's Heat Vision is a limited power, but Plasma is an element. A question, by the way: is Makuta/Rahkshi of Electricity, Gravity etc. capable of doing the same things as Toa of those elements, or are they limited to just shooting and bending and can not do absorption?
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#42 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 02 2012 - 11:08 AM

I always thought that plasma was just pure heat energy which was generally used much like in most sci-fi games such as halo

I'm pretty sure the plasma intended in Halo is the fourth state of matter, so superheated gas, just like Bionicle.

Another thing concerning elements in general (in Bionicle), I don't think "element" mean exactly the same in the Matoran world and ours. For example, it seems more as if "elemental powers" refers to different aspect of matter and/or energy combined with an idea of controlling that specific matter and/or energy in a particular and limited way, while our elements are divided up into the atomic level or the simplest forms.

Well, "element" in the real world originally meant the same thing as in Bionicle; fire, air, water, etc. and varied from culture to culture. Basically "a basic aspect of everyday nature", specifically from the point of view of non-scientists. Also of course it works even better in a protodermic world because everything is made of the same molecules.But when in our world we started scientifically identifying atoms, we needed a word for it so we "repurposed" the word "element" for it instead of inventing a new word.

In my book, an "element" is defined as the ability to create, control and absorb a specific material or force. So a Rahkshi's Heat Vision is a limited power, but Plasma is an element.A question, by the way: is Makuta/Rahkshi of Electricity, Gravity etc. capable of doing the same things as Toa of those elements, or are they limited to just shooting and bending and can not do absorption?

1) It's more of a general material, with various specific types (for example protodermic water and non-protodermic water), but that's basically the right idea. Also I would clarify "force" as "energy".2) That's never really been clear. The Kal were portrayed as being very powerful, although it was probably just the type of power they had, and as far as we know the M/R power is identical to the Kal's.On the other hand, I always got the impression that normal Bohrok are considerably weaker than Toa of the same element, so yeah, I dunno. :P Even bending is debatable, but yeah, not really sure. The gravity Kal, though, was clearly shown bending gravity in various ways, so that alone might be enough to say yes -- but then we usually see Rahkshi as shooting projectiles made of energy. Not always though (the life absorbing one in MOL for example).It may be that they can, but Rahkshi normally think in terms of firing projectiles only. Makuta are fully sapient so I imagine they would be fully proficient with those elements.

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 02 2012 - 11:15 AM.

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#43 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 02:15 PM

All the Elements 'worked' for me, but most of them weren't explored in the story enough.
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#44 Offline Katuko

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 03:07 PM

On the other hand, I always got the impression that normal Bohrok are considerably weaker than Toa of the same element, so yeah, I dunno. :P Even bending is debatable, but yeah, not really sure. The gravity Kal, though, was clearly shown bending gravity in various ways, so that alone might be enough to say yes -- but then we usually see Rahkshi as shooting projectiles made of energy. Not always though (the life absorbing one in MOL for example).It may be that they can, but Rahkshi normally think in terms of firing projectiles only. Makuta are fully sapient so I imagine they would be fully proficient with those elements.

Well, the Bohrok-Kal could be overloaded with elemental energy from the Nuva symbols, so to me it seemed that they are like Toa, who can only absorb their element to a certain point before having to release some of it again, and when their "batteries" where full they started going haywire. If they can absorb such energy by absorbing the "physical" equivalent of their element is a bit more iffy, since things such as "vacuum" aren't really absorb-able (though that power kind of works in reverse, as actually absorb things in the first place. Lehvak-Kal blew himself away, after all, he did not implode in a super-vacuum).I believe the highest Rahkshi levels are stated to be as intelligent as Toa, but of course their intelligent tactics may still involve just blasting things to bits in different ways if they believe that is the best course of action. :lol:

Edited by Katuko, Apr 04 2012 - 03:08 PM.

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#45 Offline Exo-Kahgarak

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 07:21 PM

Plasma is orange and white, electricity is blue and white.In my book, an "element" is defined as the ability to create, control and absorb a specific material or force. So a Rahkshi's Heat Vision is a limited power, but Plasma is an element. A question, by the way: is Makuta/Rahkshi of Electricity, Gravity etc. capable of doing the same things as Toa of those elements, or are they limited to just shooting and bending and can not do absorption?

My problem with psionics is that it's the only element that can't be absorbed by a Toa. That just makes it not seem like an element to me.

Particularily,what if ALL elements on the periodic table(at least the natural ones) were BIONICLE elements as well?

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#46 Offline Katuko

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 07:24 PM

Gravity, too, cannot be absorbed. It can be negated, but that still requires the Toa to spend energy, apparently.
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#47 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 07:56 PM

I do not think that Magnetism and Iron are the same, or that Earth and Stone are the same (sand is another matter). What I do think is that Psionics doesn't really work for me as an element. "Psionics" isn't a thing like earth or fire or even the force of magnetism, it's a set of powers. They all have to do with the mind, but you can't absorb "Psionics" or unleash a Nova blast of "Psionics".It also irked me that people accepted Psionics but rejected Kinetic Energy, but whatevs.
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#48 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 10:31 PM

I don't see why Psionics couldn't be absorbed, it could have effects ranging from making the target forget their current thought to destroying their minds entirely. It was just decided for some reason that they couldn't. I think it's said they can do Nova Blasts though, which would consist of a mental attack that could make its targets stunned, unconscious, mindless, insane, or dead.
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#49 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 11:23 PM

Well, the Bohrok-Kal could be overloaded with elemental energy from the Nuva symbols, so to me it seemed that they are like Toa, who can only absorb their element to a certain point before having to release some of it again, and when their "batteries" where full they started going haywire. If they can absorb such energy by absorbing the "physical" equivalent of their element is a bit more iffy, since things such as "vacuum" aren't really absorb-able (though that power kind of works in reverse, as actually absorb things in the first place. Lehvak-Kal blew himself away, after all, he did not implode in a super-vacuum).

All good points. And since Vacuum is the only one that's not considered an element I think that rule wouldn't apply to it. Come to think of it that's a great argument against it ever being adopted as one lol.

My problem with psionics is that it's the only element that can't be absorbed by a Toa. That just makes it not seem like an element to me.

Again, this IMO should not be a problem with the element, but with how the canon defined the element. Making it an element tells me that there must simply be another fictional energy at play here, just like there's cold energy, shadow energy, life energy, Toa, elemental, etc. etc. (The first three being involved in four elements; life in Life and Plants.)Thus if there is a psionics energy, it should be absorbable by Toa, and in my "head-canon" (I really like that term :P) it can be.

Gravity, too, cannot be absorbed. It can be negated, but that still requires the Toa to spend energy, apparently.

And same to this. Logically gravity energy can be absorbed just like any other element. I think these two things just resulted from Greg not quite being a physics geek and not realizing there's no actual problem with these elements having the same rules as the others. :P But whatever, "what's done is done". It just makes things more confusing for no real reason. Ah well.And with Psionics, Greg probably thought it would actually help people accept it better, but it seems clear to me, at least from what people have posted, that it was counterproductive to give it that special restriction. Still, the motive for it can be appreciated. ^_^

I do not think that Magnetism and Iron are the same, or that Earth and Stone are the same (sand is another matter). What I do think is that Psionics doesn't really work for me as an element. "Psionics" isn't a thing like earth or fire or even the force of magnetism, it's a set of powers. They all have to do with the mind, but you can't absorb "Psionics" or unleash a Nova blast of "Psionics".It also irked me that people accepted Psionics but rejected Kinetic Energy, but whatevs.

And that -- the part in the middle here about Psionics not being a thing -- is why I say what I say above. :) IMO it clearly has to be a thing -- a type of energy -- to be an element. Canonically it's thus a thing with strange extra rules added onto it, because (within the story, I guess) the GBs felt like it lol.Actually I suppose there might be plausible reasons for the GBs to add extra rules to certain elements, although off the top of my head not sure what those reasons might be. :shrugs: Thoughts?Yeah, the whole rejection of Kinetic Energy made no sense to me; most people seemed to want the other basic energies, gravity and sonics and the like. And we had examples of those as powers in canon characters and tools and such already, including kinetics. But I think it's mainly just that people felt it would be overpowered. Which is a valid point. On the other hand, if the GBs can add special rules to certain elements, they could have done that to Kinetics too, heh. :)In-story, I suppose we could explain it away as just one type of energy the GBs themselves might not have understood to be a type of energy. I kinda like ideas like that -- that fictional characters could be really advanced in some ways, but since they're building off of some kind of a "magic" -- Energized Protodermis in this case -- they miss some of the fundamentals. :) Kinda cool.

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 04 2012 - 11:26 PM.

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#50 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Apr 05 2012 - 02:03 AM

Wait a minute - an energy that grants mental powers, including telekinesis?It's the Force! :P
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#51 Offline Peach 00

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Posted Apr 05 2012 - 08:12 AM

Earth appeared to me as a variation of stone, which was a variation of sand. Reverse the process and it makes more sense, but that's how I've considered it. :P
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On the day the wall came down / They threw the locks onto the ground
And with glasses high / We raised a cry / For freedom had arrived
 
On the day the wall came down / The ship of fools had finally run aground
Promises lit up the night / Like paper doves in flight
 
I dreamed you had left my side / No warmth, not even pride remained
And even though you needed me / It was clear that I could not do a thing for you
 
Now life devalues day by day / As friends and neighbors turn away
And there's a change that even with regret / Cannot be undone
 
Now frontiers shift like desert sands / While nations wash their bloodied hands
Of loyalty, of history / In shades of grey
 
I woke to the sound of drums / The music played, the morning sun streamed in
I turned and I looked at you / And all but the bitter residues slipped away
 
slipped away...
 







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