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#81 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 05 2011 - 07:40 PM

I might just kill Irriane, but I'm not letting Jontan or Ratasque walk away with that mask. :PI have a few... interesting... concepts that I might work with.I want to make note that I edited my bio/s. They weren't recent, not reflecting some information from the first BZP or any of it from this forum.-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:
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#82 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 05 2011 - 07:42 PM

Besides the fact that many of these attacks are detrimental to health. Anyways, he dropped to the ground and kicked up thick dust. Thus, the needles and the staff would fly above him. However, Rastaque is just about out of energy, and will pass out with the rest. That leaves everything up to Jontan.Jontan is running out of energy. I just said so. And they did rest for a few minutes. Yes, only a few minutes, but it's rest. Jontan is getting hit, despite his protection. Again, this protection is wearing down.So yes, they can win, if they have a winning strategy. As said, you guys are getting in each others' way. If you all devised a strategy and followed it, then you'd win. It honestly goes up and down when it comes to numbers. One, two and three are harder to fight than four, five, six, etc.; these larger numbers all get in the way of each other as they attack the same target.
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#83 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted Nov 05 2011 - 07:50 PM

Except, once again, the needles and staff happened quite a while ago -- ergo, before he dropped to the ground. They should have hit seconds or minutes ago. and as I pointed out, again, only two of the attacks -- the shadow and the telekinetic hold -- got in each others' way in the Rastaque fight. The pull from Rynekk moved Rastaque out of the center of Nostala's targeted area, but not out of the area itself, even if, at this point, the staff is moot. Essentially, the pull and duck could not have been how he dodged it. A simple acknowledgment of the order of attacks is all that I'm asking for here.And, with regards to the sand around Rastaque, as a not-Toa of Sand, he can't hold the sand in a solid shield around himself, especially with as little EE as he has. Nostala can at least partially see him, and her rock can almost certainly hit him.Greel in the RPG topic: No problem; I'm happy to help.

Edited by Parugi, Nov 05 2011 - 07:57 PM.

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#84 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 05 2011 - 07:57 PM

Have you ever gone out on a field and watched a medieval fighting reenactment? Not a Medieval Times set-up, or a movie. When two unskilled fighters are aiding each other, they will hit each other. More often they hit themselves than each other, though. Yes, four of them will be a mess against a skilled fighter, but even then they will win. Four good fighters against one good fighter, however, this doesn't happen. We're assuming that all of our characters are good. Really good. That's how RPG characters are, they're the best.Four skilled fighters, especially on such a large, open area, have the advantage easily. Its a small team of really good guys against another really good guy. But you can only be so good, and none of our characters are that unskilled as to easily hit each other.Your point I render invalid.Answers to questions you're asking:1. They don't go half out in the SCA, either. Before my dad got sick and couldn't fight any more, he went out there. They don't use real weapons, but they fight like you really would fight. And people go home injured all the time. Stuff like that happens when your solid steel helmet gets caved in. While you're wearing it.And they're pretty good, some of them. I'd rather be with one of them then your average unskilled peasant any day on a battlefield.2. I may not be assuming super powers, but the point still stands - it isn't easy to hit your own ally. Especially with as little melee as is involved, and the fact it's easier to see a fireball than an arrow.-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:
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#85 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 05 2011 - 08:30 PM

I didn't say they were hitting each other; one attack does something to him, rendering the others invalid or far less likely to hit. Some attacks do get in the way of others. As you yourself said, there isn't much melee going on, leaving a larger margin of error for the ranged attacks. What melee does happen puts both the target and the person he engages in danger due to the ranged attacks. Thus, when the target is in melee, the rest are likely to not do something that would endanger their ally. Rastaque is controlling the environment, leaving him in an advantageous position over the others.I've seen live reenactments - real battle, despite it being with wooden and padded weapons. Often enough, skilled people team up against another skilled person, and I have seen the one win over the group. It can happen. And again, this is with melee.On the subject of the the needles, I digress. Will add something in regard to them stabbing him in my next post. The staff will have caught him in the side. This will leave him bleeding, with dust (caused by his wind) flying around him. He will divert all remaining energy into the vacuum, leaving him on the breath he has with the rest of everyone, trying to outlast.
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#86 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 01:02 PM

You can cheat in a reenacment fight. I've seen people do all sorts of things to say that they didn't get hit. One man, with a three inch dent in his helmet and a splitting headache, tried to say that he hadn't been hit. In reality, even if one skilled man can take out one or two of his attackers, he can't block every direction at once.And truly you cannot say for certain if they were skilled or not. I know a number of people personally and know how good they are, and I've heart stories. If you know those four people were the best at what they did and they lost, then it's one thing.And Ratasque isn't really any more at an advantage than the others. For instance, you would not accept being blinded by the shadow. You were completely helpless, and should have been dead in your moments of helplessness, but were not. Your character has no better sensory skills than the others, he's just a toa of air. If you had a Mask of Sonar, Sensory Aptitude, etc. you could still function, albeit at a lower skill.And even if you had those, you can't hear, smell, or in any way detect a bolt of shadow.There's also the region to take into account. On an open plain, yes, you would be hurling the attacks. The problem is that Greel, Nostala, and Rocky are down below with Ratasque, whilst the others are still - I believe - atop the dunes.Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.Truth is, you can't will the fight. It's just not possible. You will be the first one out of elemental energy. When you are, you will have to flee or die. In fact, I don't believe it's possible for you to make your escape. You have no way to do it. You will die. You will die painfully. We can't kill you because of that rule, despite how illogical your situation is.-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:
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#87 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 02:12 PM

I point out your instance upon something that isn't perfect. "You can't" is far different from "it is extremely unlikely". You cannot say for certain, one hundred percent, that he loses. Yes, he has many things going against him, yet he could technically win.Again I say, Rastaque has advantage due to control over the environment. You don't see humans with elemental power. Yes, all toa are equal in elemental power. However, not all elemental powers are equal. Yes, air has disadvantages, but is a generally strong element. I've seen no attempts for anyone to actually leave the vacuum, for one thing. That would seriously strain his concentration. As everyone but Greel and Rastaque have now said that they're almost out of breath, this situation would not be probable, though. Think of something that I can't refute.On the subject of the shadow, did I say that Rastaque could see at the time? No. He was pulled out of it by Rynekk. Did I say he saw Greel? No, he felt him through the air, his own element.

Edited by Toa of Dischordant Dancing, Nov 06 2011 - 02:12 PM.

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#88 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 04:21 PM

Only a few things -a ) That's not a valid use of that power.b )You're in a vacuum, making it more invalid.c ) That's a pretty unfair move anyways, as you should be running out of breath.The worst part of it all is that you haven't suffered serious injuries. The worst you've taken has been "Oh, I got a little singed, oh poor me, this is the first time I've ever been hit", but the worst you've dealt has been impaling someone through the chest point blank.At least we're willing to take that, whilst you were attacked with pretty much unavoidable attacks and still managed to get away.And yes, you are right, it is possible if you godmodded to the point of being unbelievable. Let me rephrase this - if that rule wasn't in place, you would be dead by now from multiple different attacks. Yet somehow you manage to be completely invulnerable.You. Can. Not. Win. If you somehow win, it's because you were godmodding, plain and simple.Let me sum it up as this - if you were in Ratasques situation, everything equal - training, mind, everything - you couldn't win. It's only a magical barrier of, "You can't hurt me I'm a PC." that is keeping you alive.I will then state that if this was a video game, you would be dead. Taking into account physical conditions, giving everyone elemental powers and the ability to do every action they've done, you would have gone down, because in a video game you can be killed.Tell me one way you can win this without godmodding. Just one way. Let's assume you can kill others characters, and state how you would do it. I'll tell you how that wouldn't work, how I'd beat you at that in the others shoes, and I'll make sure you know exactly why this entire situation is impossible.Even though I know that whatever I say, you'll believe that somehow your one character is more powerful than a group of others.Heck, my (arguably) most powerful character, Suicavel, couldn't take them all, and I am quite certain he has the advantage over Ratasque as far as powers and physical training.-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:

Edited by Toa Levacius Zehvor, Nov 06 2011 - 04:22 PM.

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#89 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 06:07 PM

a ) I see no reason why it isn't valid.b ) Greel jumped into his air tunnel and therefore was not in the vacuum anymore.c ) He wasn't out of breath, as he was in the air tunnel.Read again. Half of Jontan's front was just burned. Impaling? Never said it hit. I said he aimed to stab Kairan (stomach, BTW), not that he succeeded. If you speak of a different occasion, I apologize for forgetting.It irks me that you ignore my statement completely. He can win, the problem is that some people believe that some people won't let that happen. Everything Rastaque and Jontan have done, taking everyone's training, powers, etc. into account, is possible. Show me where I godmodded, giving no reason that could work for dodging something (that wasn't addressed later because I missed it). The needles stabbed him (after debate if he could dodge it or not, I relented). The heat hit multiple times, but he moved before it did serious damage (besides when it did). Again, I state that humans are not biomechanical beings with powers.Using your example as a video game, I bring up Assassin's Creed. Ezio, an assassin (who doesn't have the power to create vacuums and "perfect" accuracy), Can take on a mob of soldiers, melee. These soldiers can be (and sometimes are) skilled. They even circle around and attack strategically. But they all end up dead. However, as that is a video game and this isn't, that's just a parallel.A way I can win this? Everyone collapses at a reasonable time (as in, a minute ago) due to having nothing to breathe. He then outlasts Greel, having less space to focus the vacuum on, and breathes free while staying out of range until his opponent collapses. They're all dead, and he's heavily wounded but alive.Training? Rastaque was one of the most skilled assassins in existence. He's also been on the island for a long time, fighting physically, via stealth, and via power. Again comes the rock paper scissors effect. The way Suicavel uses his power, I'd say he most definitely could win in this situation.

Edited by Toa of Dischordant Dancing, Nov 06 2011 - 06:07 PM.

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#90 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 07:10 PM

My response - Okay, assuming they've finally run out of ability to function and drop. Greel rips your mask off with telekenesis, leaving you stunned and almost powerless. You cannot function on the vacuum, and air returns. The others are out, but will live. Rocky lunges; we'll give you the chance to gut the lion. However, the flames of the mane cause severe damage to you, and his body pins you. You try to reach for you mask, try to use your powers. It's useless. Greel guts you. Fight over.That's being pretty generous to you.Eezio in Assassins Creed is an unrealistic example. I've played the game; he doesn't die every time he's hit. One hit from a sword would be a felling blow, and a mob of those guys has a lot of sword hits. It would take a lot to take him out, but really, one blow in melee with a longsword would be permanent damage. And a two handed sword, well, now one of those cuts right through hit light armoring and leaves a dead assassin.(Besides, if those guys were smart they'd use longspears anyways...)And I have not accused you of godmodding; I have stated it is the only way to win this fight.-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:
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#91 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 07:34 PM

On a slightly related topic to this -- out of curiosity, does the no killing rule still apply to PCs once they become part of Team Patronage?Also, ToD, to rebut your last point, as it's one I've had to talk to people about multiple times in Day Run and other RPGs -- back story doesn't necessarily give you an edge over others, nor does it make anything an absolute fact. Nostala has toppled multiple corrupt governments in her lifetime; doesn't mean she's absolutely unkillable on this island, simply because this isn't my universe -- her abilities are far more toned down here than they would be elsewhere.Likewise, from whose perspective is Rastaque "one of the most skilled assassins in existence"? That's a presumption that you, as the creator of the character, holds; just because you state it as a fact doesn't mean that it gives him an automatic advantage in skill over anyone else. If that were the case, then anyone could say that they're the most powerful character in the entire universe and then no one would get beaten. As far as the rest of the players are concerned, we're all on equal footing. Back story really has very little to do with how well the character can fight, since you, as the player, are controlling them, and that skill oftentimes doesn't translate well into how the character is actually handled.EDIT: To clarify, since my post may be slightly confusing as to the point I'm trying to make -- when it comes to player-player interaction, as per Zehvor's point, you can't use back story as a way to even the playing field in terms of skill level in the majority of cases, simply because of the fact that the way a character is played, again in most cases, will not necessarily match up with the character's in-universe skill. If I say my character is the best swordsman in the universe but then play my moves really badly in a fight or if circumstances simply dictate that there is absolutely no way than I can win by playing fairly, then my supposed master is going to die.

Edited by Parugi, Nov 06 2011 - 07:44 PM.

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#92 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:02 PM

@ Parugi. Yes. Team Patronage who are still NPC's, I believe, count as PC's for our honorable GM. The no-killing rule is only lifted on random NPC's or characters whose player has abandoned them. Or with GM permission.

her abilities are far more toned down here than they would be elsewhere.

In situations where I've used Levacius and Suicavel before, the former has a number of powerful artifact like items, and is even better - save in RPGs. Suicavel, on the other hand, is just ridiculously powerful.He still is, which is why I gave him the light vulnerability, so I would only be able to use him occasionally.And I didn't want to comment on it, but Parugi has done it so I will continue. Fluffing your character doesn't make them a better combatant, it makes them a better for roleplaying. One of the best assassins? Then why on earth are you in the middle of the field of battle? An assassin doesn't just run into a building and start stabbing, he waits for his target and then takes them out.As soon as five other people came to aid Greel, Arillan would have gone running - he never accepts an even fight against one foe, let alone a fight against multiple adversaries, because he's an assassin. Suicavel would have stayed, because he's confident, but as soon as he saw his own blood he'd be gone. Levacius would have parleyed, because he's the best diplomat I have - he's a leader and a talker as much as a warrior. Sledge would have fought till he died, but he would die brutally. Irriane would have tried to talk as well, though she isn't as good as Levacius. The three latter would probably not have attacked anyways, though, unless attacked first.Also, you state Jontan and Ratasque are all buddy-buddy, but they split up. Wouldn't Ratasque have tried to get over to his ally, according to that little piece of information?-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:

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#93 Offline More Fierce Than Fire

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:02 PM

On a slightly related topic to this -- out of curiosity, does the no killing rule still apply to PCs once they become part of Team Patronage?

Mostly. I allow more leeway with what you can do to a member of Patronage, and they can die if I say so, not just the player

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#94 Offline Tiz Arrior

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:03 PM

Also, just as a mention, the stab didn't precisely work out well. Kairan did get sliced in the side partially(I forgot to mention it in my post at the time, but it happened... One of the bad things about side-stepping such a close attack. =P); however, the stab didn't impale him, and he teleported behind him after that. In fact, ToD, you may wanna have Jontan respond to having his neck grabbed. =PJust wanted to mention that. =)And Parugi has a good question there... I mean, otherwise, people could simply use the no-killing rule to last the entire RPG as a member of Team Patronage, theoretically, even forcing people who otherwise might not give mercy to, if the owner of that PC didn't want his character to die./EDIT: Got double ninja'd on that. D=Thanks for the clarification, TPtI. =)

Edited by Fullbringer Blade, Nov 06 2011 - 08:05 PM.

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#95 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:05 PM

Ah; that makes sense. I figured it was something along those lines; otherwise Team Patronage would eventually become completely unkillable once it got to a point where it was entirely made up of PCs... :PNinja'd by Blade. How fitting. :P

Edited by Parugi, Nov 06 2011 - 08:06 PM.

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#96 Offline Tiz Arrior

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:11 PM

We were both ninja'd, in a way. Very funny there. =PQuestion about that bounty on Zelisia... Is that a case of the 'with GM permission' exception to the whole no-killing rule, is that player inactive, or is it a 'return alive or dead' bounty? I'm just curious, since I haven't actually paid much attention to bounties before this, aside from Sledge's.
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#97 Offline More Fierce Than Fire

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:17 PM

I think that player is inactive. They wanted a bounty on them so smashed a couple of Caretakers
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#98 Offline Tiz Arrior

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:23 PM

Ah, I see. Just wondered about that. Doubt Kairan would want to try to get that bounty, given that he pretty much is fully against the Shepherds, but maybe if i make a new character, provided it's not already used up, I'll go after that bounty. =)
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#99 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:38 PM

Please, don't take me wrong; I was simply addressing what you said Lev. I know that back-story doesn't actually effect gameplay. On the subject, though, if you notice, he was attempting to snipe other people. You guys moved to him, despite his trying to stay away. ;)Again, Rastaque has tried to stay out of range from the others. He can snipe from pretty much any distance if he can see a target. They can't.Not buddy-buddy. More like, "Help me kill everyone, then we can deal with each other."As you yourself said, assassins aren't made for fighting in a group (Rastaque is prepared to do so, however). They fight their own fights and share the spoils. If one finishes with his targets, he helps the other. If one desperately needs help, the other does so. However, Jontan is now within sight of Rastaque, as the fight was moved over the dunes.As it would leave the characters with no escape, I'm not going to have him stab the unconscious people. Even though he would, I'm not. Unless given permission, of course. =P
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#100 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 08:44 PM

Nothing I can argue with there.Question for the talking head - can we take out inactive characters? What's the policy on that?I mean, there's got to be a few walking loot piles characters standing around uncontrolled because their player hasn't transferred over?(Also I still haven't finished off Darkons last character.)-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:
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#101 Offline More Fierce Than Fire

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 09:06 PM

I'd prefer if inactive characters were left alone. How would you like if you came back after loss of internet or computer to find that someone had killed you off?
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The dragon's ire more fierce than fire

Laid low their towers and houses frail


#102 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 09:07 PM

Okay, just wanted to be sure. I figured as much, considering that the players may very well come back.Still, you never know.-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:
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#103 Offline Tiz Arrior

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 09:44 PM

I've gotta say, Levacius, that plan that your character has is amazing. If you guys met up with Kairan and co, I doubt Kairan would think that a bad plan. Kairan wants off the island as badly as anyone else, and he's certainly willing to go against the Shepherds.
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Aloft: Castle In The Skies - Discussion Topic - Character Roster


#104 Offline Toa Levacius Zehvor

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 10:03 PM

I read a lot.The full plan is more intricate, especially once ulterior motives are in place and the fact Levacius would be willing to sacrifice most of you to survive. In the end, though, it involves a dead Makuta, the island in ruins, and a small army willing to crush the Shepherds. Though at its heart, it is just a simple escape plan. Get the warden and his men mad, at a few small fights, then stage a massive brawl.... then crush them.Hopefully I never have to test how that works in real life. I wouldn't do well in prison.Though in fighting the Makuta, most of us would die... I doubt any less than fifteen toa could take a makuta out, and most would die.Hopefully this gets entered again next contest. Given the length of fights and post rate, such a plan wouldn't be complete by the next RPG contest. Though we can probably push this one through for a second run. Three more months means more excitement...That is, if TPTI enters next contest. :P-Toa Levacius Zehvor :flagusa:

Edited by Toa Levacius Zehvor, Nov 06 2011 - 10:03 PM.

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#105 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 06 2011 - 10:09 PM

Glad we're done with that. I'll try to keep the conversation in mind.We could assume they're out kill them, and if they come back say that they survived despite our characters. Could be that they were dead and then revived by a mysterious stranger.We'd just have to kill them in ways that could be recovered from. So no decapitating, imploding, or exploding. XDAlso, Trian and Felix would be all for that plan. I hope he keeps this going.
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#106 Offline Dinamic Vitalitate

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Posted Nov 07 2011 - 11:42 PM

She stopped and looked at the fallen Orrsa, hesitating before continuing on again. Don't worry; I'll be back in a little bit, she thought. No one gets left behind... not this time.

Aaawww, Parugi. That's kind. :P

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#107 Offline Skarloth

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Posted Nov 08 2011 - 12:08 AM

So... what happened to the Stony Leap group? Is everyone just out and fighting, or what?-Skar
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#108 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted Nov 08 2011 - 12:13 AM

Rakata: Hooray for back story? 8DSeriously. If it weren't for that she might've just left him. :PSkarloth: Essentially, Greel and Nostala both went off to search for a shelter for the group, and then Greel got attacked by Rastaque and Jontan. Now we're basically busy trying to subdue them, and everyone is really heavily injured at this point.In other words, if Klax joined in right now, then he could probably single-handedly put a stop to Rastaque and Jontan's attack. :P
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#109 Offline Dinamic Vitalitate

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Posted Nov 08 2011 - 12:14 AM

Someone's being selfish, Parugi. <<<<<<I just think it's.. it's.... it's cute. :P

Edited by Rakata, Nov 08 2011 - 01:13 AM.

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#110 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 08 2011 - 09:47 AM

Shoot, I forgot about Klax. XD Well, if he joins in (on the larger side, of which he was part), then Jontan and Rastaque are gonna beat a hasty retreat.
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#111 Offline Skarloth

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Posted Nov 08 2011 - 06:13 PM

>8D^ That's all I have to say.-Skar
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#112 Offline More Fierce Than Fire

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 04:45 AM

OOC: Hey infinius, thanks for getting hit, but those needles aren't something to be shrugged off. They're meant to hurt, that's why Rastaque uses them. I really should have chosen a different weapon...

I feel that the problem isn't the choice of weapon, its how you're using them. You chose those needles because they were a precision weapon designed for taking out specific targets such as muscles or other weak spots, right?So why aren't you using them like that?You're just chucking the needles around en masse, not choosing any direct target, relying on bulk rather than any skill. Its something I commented on before, you have a tendency to just throw brute force or numbers at a problem. Trian summons a mass of sand screamers to take out Patronage, it doesn't work, and whats her solution? More Rahi! Bigger ones! And when that doesn't work? Even more Rahi! I offered you Talpid on a silver platter, sending him out, alone, onto sandy ground when I knew you had sand worms coming, and you still attacked the close-knit group which had been established as on solid rock with themCompare what Arillan and Rastaque did in the big fight over Patronage. Arillan took a position, he took time getting a careful aim at a specific target, and managed to get Laelius in the neck because of it. Rastaque was just throwing literally hundreds of needles around according to you. Thats just sloppy work for someone who is supposed to be a master assassin. And I seriously doubt a Sanok can be effective if you're using that many projectiles. If you used the needles more sparingly, took actual aim at actual targets, you'd get more done

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#113 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 08:37 AM

Multiple times I've stated that he aims them with his Sanok. Yet, they rarely, if ever, hit their intended targets, because no one (and I'm speaking to myself here also) wants to take a serious hit. The Sanok is the mask of accuracy, meant to work on literally anything. It's always on, even at a low level, meaning that I should have to state in every single post that he uses it. =/When I say he attempts to throw only one or two needles, people just dodge them. Heck, only he should be able to use them practically, unless someone else has had training in using them. But Nostala threw them, and I let them hit despite how unlikely it would be for her to know how to throw them properly or aim them perfectly. Klax has an excuse, as he had direct control over the needles, but still.Rant over, back to RPing.
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#114 Offline More Fierce Than Fire

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 09:26 AM

Hem hem

And I seriously doubt a Sanok can be effective if you're using that many projectiles

If you're just chucking them around in large number, it means you're not aiming, you're just blindly throwing them around. Which nulls any advantage a Sanok gives. Because its not a Mask of Homing Missiles, it doesn't make anything you throw seek out a target. You have to aim because otherwise you can't possibly be accurate.Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the source that you got the idea from aren't the needles meant to block off nerve clusters or chi points or something like that? The effect of a weapon like that is decreased in the Bionicle universe where everyone is 80% robot. Fewer nerve clusters, and chi doesn't exist at all. Which in turn means you have to take even more care in what you're doing. Don't just say you threw some needles at someone, say where. Make it harder for them to dodge, as with a Sanok you can aim at where you think they're going to dodge to

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#115 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 01:36 PM

Why do I feel like I've seen this Sanok discussion before...

When I say he attempts to throw only one or two needles, people just dodge them. Heck, only he should be able to use them practically, unless someone else has had training in using them. But Nostala threw them, and I let them hit despite how unlikely it would be for her to know how to throw them properly or aim them perfectly. Klax has an excuse, as he had direct control over the needles, but still.

In my defense, my entire point with the staff and needles throw earlier was that the staff couldn't have been dodged, not the needles. The choice of which one actually hit was yours, despite the fact that I was advocating for the former.Even then, you have to consider Nostala's profession. Even if the bow staff was the only weapon she was allowed to keep, with what she does for a living it's reasonable to assume that she has at least some experience with weapon throwing, especially with how precise her staff throws are -- which, admittedly, the staff is bigger than the needles are, but the fact that she uses a throwing technique at all and uses it so commonly makes it fairly reasonable to assume that that's something she practices a lot. Regardless, again, I wasn't talking about the needles during that debate earlier.Anyway, from what I've seen, there have been explanations for how people are blocking or dodging the needles, at least the majority of the time. Greel has done so by using telekinesis and his Hau Rhotuka; Nostala has done so by noting where the needles are as they're flying toward her and blocking the ones that would actually hit her with her staff -- which, again, observation is a skill she would have practiced doing what she does. Orssa can turn intangible, and I know that he's used that a few times during the fight. Rocky flat out disintegrated them with his fire mane.As Power basically said, clouds of needles flying every which way are easier to deflect and dodge than pin-pointed, smaller groups, since those are actually aimed. Using Nostala as an example in my last post, you actually took time to aim at her arms that time -- though, admittedly, not entirely accurately given her illusion -- which is why Rastaque managed to land a hit on her. As I said a few posts ago, how you play determines the effectiveness of what you do in a battle.

Edited by Parugi, Nov 09 2011 - 01:40 PM.

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#116 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 05:18 PM

Hem hem

And I seriously doubt a Sanok can be effective if you're using that many projectiles

If you're just chucking them around in large number, it means you're not aiming, you're just blindly throwing them around. Which nulls any advantage a Sanok gives. Because its not a Mask of Homing Missiles, it doesn't make anything you throw seek out a target. You have to aim because otherwise you can't possibly be accurate.Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the source that you got the idea from aren't the needles meant to block off nerve clusters or chi points or something like that? The effect of a weapon like that is decreased in the Bionicle universe where everyone is 80% robot. Fewer nerve clusters, and chi doesn't exist at all. Which in turn means you have to take even more care in what you're doing. Don't just say you threw some needles at someone, say where. Make it harder for them to dodge, as with a Sanok you can aim at where you think they're going to dodge to

That's an added bonus (chakra, BTW, not chi, though it's pretty much the same thing XD). They're main purpose is to stab into a person and kill/hurt them. Yes, in the manga/anime, it takes a large amount of them, aimed at pressure points/lethal areas, to take someone down. However, that's where Rastaque's aim and usage of wind come into the picture.As I also said, he does aim them. The copious amounts are the ones aimed at every possible escape route. Anyways, I'll try to specify in the future.@Parugi: The staff did catch him in the side. Did I forget to say that?She's pretty skilled to be able to knock multiple thin objects out of the air in rapid succession. Also, when it comes to Rocky, how do you guys ride on him if he has a giant mane of fire that apparently wraps around his body to disintegrate needles aimed toward his chest/legs?Also, everyone, I'm waiting until Blade responds to Jontan so that he can save Rastaque. Otherwise, the latter is dead.

Edited by Toa of Dischordant Dancing, Nov 09 2011 - 05:21 PM.

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#117 Offline Magnus Greel

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 06:24 PM

A lion's mane is around his neck only; it doesn't wrap around him. Whenever Rocky's mane lights up, Greel retreats to his lower back to avoid being roasted, though he doesn't escape all the heat.Were needles ever thrown at his chest and legs? The only times Rastaque attacked him with needles were when he and Greel were heading back to the group, and when he pounced into the air at him and Rastaque tossed the needles at his face. I only read about needles being thrown at his face, not at his chest and legs, I believe.
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#118 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted Nov 09 2011 - 08:01 PM

Yes, you did forget, because I never saw anything confirming the staff hitting him -- which is why I found it really odd that you chose to have the needles hit instead of the staff when you posted. Even now, there's no evidence of it having hit.... if the needles are that small, then how much damage, exactly, are they going to do to mostly bio mechanical beings to begin with when thrown from a distance and aimed at non-vital areas? To counter your argument with similar points of interest -- and I'm going to implore you to read this entire post through first before responding to this -- how did Rastaque see a shimmer of an illusion that, to the best of everyone's knowledge ICly and OOCly, wouldn't have even have happened, and if it did, wouldn't be visible in the dark? How did all of those attacks earlier somehow weaken Greel's concentration on Rastaque, yet when similar things were going on even earlier, they didn't affect Rastaque's ability to concentrate on the vacuum?The answer? Player error and lack of research. I, for one, wasn't aware of just how big the needles were, and, as a matter of fact, still am not sure of their actual size. I figured they were small just because of the sheer fact that Rastaque has so many of them, but I honestly did not think that they were as small as you're now implying. As such, when I posted the one post where Nostala had to do that, I figured they were slightly bigger than I now know they are, and as such, reacted in the way that I did -- I thought they were big enough for her to be able to effectively deflect them. Likewise, you seem to have failed to realize the precautions Nostala was taking in my post to avoid being seen, hence the shimmer. You failed to consider that concentration = concentration no matter who it is who's doing it, hence why Rastaque seems to be so much better at it than Greel is despite the latter possessing powers that naturally require more of it. It's player error; it happens on an unfortunately regular, though unsurprising basis.As for waiting for a rescue from Jontan -- to me, at least, that just feels like dragging the battle out for one last breath. At the moment, there aren't any lethal attacks going on, aside from the rock that Draco just threw, and that can be stopped; you could easily have him get knocked down and let Nostala force him into a position -- as I'm trying to do -- where he just can't attack anymore; she has no intention of killing him at the moment. Not only would that provide a more interesting interaction -- i.e., a potential negotiation to end the fight or even -- surprise! -- a simple dialogue to figure out just what the heck is going on! -- but it would also finally provide a way to break off from the action. This entire situation doesn't have to go down in battle; heck, at this point, it's ridiculous to assume that Jontan's even going to be able to do anything that will allow him to free Rastaque by force given the shape he's in compared to, say, Klax and everyone else combined.I don't mean to pick on anyone, and I don't want to sound like I'm going off on a rant, but please; this is stuff that could seriously be looked into more thoroughly.

Edited by Parugi, Nov 09 2011 - 08:10 PM.

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#119 Offline Toa of Dancing

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Posted Nov 10 2011 - 03:12 PM

I would think that saying he aimed needles at Rocky, Greel, and Nostala would mean more than at the faces of each. But again, clarification problem on my part.

Yes, you did forget, because I never saw anything confirming the staff hitting him -- which is why I found it really odd that you chose to have the needles hit instead of the staff when you posted. Even now, there's no evidence of it having hit.... if the needles are that small, then how much damage, exactly, are they going to do to mostly bio mechanical beings to begin with when thrown from a distance and aimed at non-vital areas? To counter your argument with similar points of interest -- and I'm going to implore you to read this entire post through first before responding to this -- how did Rastaque see a shimmer of an illusion that, to the best of everyone's knowledge ICly and OOCly, wouldn't have even have happened, and if it did, wouldn't be visible in the dark? How did all of those attacks earlier somehow weaken Greel's concentration on Rastaque, yet when similar things were going on even earlier, they didn't affect Rastaque's ability to concentrate on the vacuum?The answer? Player error and lack of research. I, for one, wasn't aware of just how big the needles were, and, as a matter of fact, still am not sure of their actual size. I figured they were small just because of the sheer fact that Rastaque has so many of them, but I honestly did not think that they were as small as you're now implying. As such, when I posted the one post where Nostala had to do that, I figured they were slightly bigger than I now know they are, and as such, reacted in the way that I did -- I thought they were big enough for her to be able to effectively deflect them. Likewise, you seem to have failed to realize the precautions Nostala was taking in my post to avoid being seen, hence the shimmer. You failed to consider that concentration = concentration no matter who it is who's doing it, hence why Rastaque seems to be so much better at it than Greel is despite the latter possessing powers that naturally require more of it. It's player error; it happens on an unfortunately regular, though unsurprising basis.As for waiting for a rescue from Jontan -- to me, at least, that just feels like dragging the battle out for one last breath. At the moment, there aren't any lethal attacks going on, aside from the rock that Draco just threw, and that can be stopped; you could easily have him get knocked down and let Nostala force him into a position -- as I'm trying to do -- where he just can't attack anymore; she has no intention of killing him at the moment. Not only would that provide a more interesting interaction -- i.e., a potential negotiation to end the fight or even -- surprise! -- a simple dialogue to figure out just what the heck is going on! -- but it would also finally provide a way to break off from the action. This entire situation doesn't have to go down in battle; heck, at this point, it's ridiculous to assume that Jontan's even going to be able to do anything that will allow him to free Rastaque by force given the shape he's in compared to, say, Klax and everyone else combined.I don't mean to pick on anyone, and I don't want to sound like I'm going off on a rant, but please; this is stuff that could seriously be looked into more thoroughly.

Alright, well... Yeah. I meant to say it did. Anyways, it's a contributor towards his overall lack of health at the moment.Thin (and small) does not equal painless. Ever pricked your finger with a small sowing needle or pin? Well, these are about two or three inches in length, and about a quarter of a centimeter thick, being thrown at you point first with accuracy and power. The part that Nostala would see would be the quarter-centimeter thickness, thus rather small but deadly. He carries a rather large satchel of them. Inertia keeps them in there when he's flipping and such.Many times Rastaque almost lost concentration of the vacuum. The main difference I see is the fact that Rastaque was trying to keep something stationary already in existence while Greel was trying to create something: a telekinetic hold on a running being. Furthermore, Greel's concentration was not completely broken. Not even close. Rastaque just used the distractions around to use the slightly lessened concentration in his escape. Notice he still took a burn and a few needles. The other option was him dying. He's on the verge of collapse; the only thing keeping him up is the will not to die. As soon as Blade posts (as I'm writing this I'm not sure if he has or not - I have to go as soon as I finish), Rastaque will go out cold and Jontan will use most of his remaining energy for their escape. Unless, of course, Nostala does have something to say that can stop them.To the subject of the "shimmer:" Rastaque was looking for anything that could be what hit him. As it would be practically impossible to create a perfect illusion of invisibility unless one were perfectly still, he would notice even the slightest of distortions created by her constantly moving. In the case of her being perfectly invisible in some way, he could still guess where she was. Not a perfect guess, but good nonetheless.Anyways, Nostala and Jontan are the only two options of escape and I didn't think about Nostala (it is hard to keep track of everyone in this battle). The above situation was what I was planning. What I have been planning for a while. Also, when Nostala knocks him down, that puts her in the boulder's path.Remember, you're dealing with two crazed murderers; good luck with getting them to stop trying to kill you. In any case, though, I'll respond when I get back in an hour or so.

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#120 Offline Aordain

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Posted Nov 10 2011 - 08:37 PM

Hey, guys, sorry about my absence. I've had computer issues lately. Anyways, these pages are long and I only have so much time to read all this at once-has anything notable happened in the lounge room since my last post? And is/are any player(s) in there?
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