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A Plausible Rumor...


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103 replies to this topic

#81 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 04 2012 - 09:46 PM

[Edit]

Making a new theme is different than just making a new year for an existing theme.

It seems you and I must be talking around something, because you seem to think that by making points like this you're somehow disagreeing with me, but you're really just saying the point I've been making, with a different emphasis.Again, lemme say it again the way I said it several times already now, so that it's crystal clear this is agreement, okay?Using the bold changes that they did (that were applied to changing from Bionicle to HF -- from ending Bionicle and starting HF) would have been a waste if done in Bionicle. This is why it was wise to save them for doing something new.Got it? :)I've gone into detail already as to why it would be a waste, so hopefully you haven't missed that (about how it still would have been less effective because it wouldn't feel as new, etc.) This is agreement. Yeah?[/Edit]

I still feel saying Hero Factory is essentially BIONICLE "renamed" when they were developed independent of one another really feels like it's undervaluing the work that went into making Hero Factory

It feels like that to you because of how your tastes make you weigh value. :) It would feel that way if you were to say it. I say it because with my tastes, it helps me appreciate Hero Factory.Also, don't miss that I said it in response to someone who was apparently expressing a negative reaction towards HF's style. If, with entertainment, someone is having a bad reaction, then a suggestion to change their perspective might help them. :)But if it doesn't help you, that's fine -- in such a case, it's basically "not for you", as they say. ^_^Why?Because anything that is done in entertainment is both a positive and a negative, depending on who views it, since we have different tastes. :) This is the answer to the question, how can something be a flaw and a good thing at the same time. Do you see what I'm saying? It's good to people who have one perspective, bad to others. So I think it's wise to try to find a perspective that helps enjoy entertainment, for your tastes.Yeah? ^^,

As for the psychobabble, the whole twin thing didn't even occur to me until I was making that post, I just used it to reinforce the comparison. If there is some kind of connection there, it is 100% subconscious. I would appreciate if you didn't try to read psychology into this discussion at all in the future, because I find that kind of suggestion somewhat insulting, even if it wasn't meant as an insult.

No offense intended, rather, hopefully a possible insight that might help, since you said you were already having this negative reaction to things people have been saying. :) And I haven't seen anyone else having such a strong emotional reaction as you have. Chances are that's no coincidence. ^_^Also, psychology is always in everything we all say -- there's an absolute for you. :P We can misunderstand which psychology is at play, and if I did that's fine; it's just something that you can consider, and only you can; it's your brain. But psychology is always in the discussion, and IMO it would be unhealthy to blind ourselves to that.

How does the word essentially make "X is essentially Y renamed" not an absolute? Sure, that's what the word is intended for, but it doesn't work in that context, because as I explained something can't be half-renamed from something else.

I think you're overthinking this one, Aanchir. :P Just relax and think about it. And I don't know what to make of this half-renamed idea. You were the one who said things like that, not me; I don't know what that means. Anyhow, I already conceded your rewording in your previous post was better than mine, so why continue arguing over it? The horse is dead, lol. :PThat is to say, your rewording is better in your tastes. :) In mine I like the idea of seeing HF as sort of a renaming (but not totally). We don't have to agree on this because it's a preference thing. :)Edit: You know what, though -- I'm missing the biggest point I should be making here about this whole "essentially renamed" thing. Which is that, you actually seemed to have taken it as an insult towards Hero Factory. I didn't quite catch that before -- it seemed like you were somehow taking it personally, which I couldn't understand. But it's a compliment! I love Bionicle! I'm quite possibly the biggest Bionicle fan in the world, man. :P For me to say something is so good it is essentially Bionicle renamed is about the biggest praise I can think of. That's why it just does not compute for me that this could be taken negatively.Does that help clarify things? :)Also, it may help to add that many of the differences I like too, and think they actually are improvements over Bionicle. But anywho...

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 05 2012 - 12:00 AM.

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#82 Offline reptiman

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Posted Apr 06 2012 - 10:11 AM

I think that BIONICLE won't return for at least a good 2-3 years. It just seems a little early to me.
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#83 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 06 2012 - 06:23 PM

bones, when you say that Hero Factory is Bionicle renamed, I think you are saying that Bionicle and Hero Factory are essentially the same, that you are making a value statement that you they are equal in quality. At least, in what is important, they are of the same entertainment value.I honestly disagree with that. In my mind, Bionicle is better than Hero Factory. This leads to the belief that you are insulting Bionicle by placing Bionicle and Hero Factory on an equal plane. This is a matter of personal tastes and opinion - I value one thing above another, while you have chosen to value both equally.I dislike you trying to push your opinion off as fact. The changes in between the two themes are substantial enough to affect the entertainment value I get out of them - I get less out of HF, and correspondingly like it less. The two themes are separate entities - enough to be distinguishable, and enough that people have different preferences between the two.Logically, the two themes are that - two themes. They have similarities and differences. At this point, I would rather have our current situation than apply HF-style changes to Bionicle as it stood back in the beginning of 2010. However, I would not mind an episodic story for Bionicle's future, if it will have one - although I would prefer the story-telling style it had.
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#84 Offline Smooth Jazz

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Posted Apr 06 2012 - 07:23 PM

Though i do wish Bionicle would return, it just does not seem likely for it to return so soon, while Hero Factory seems to be doing pretty well on it's own.
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#85 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 07 2012 - 12:45 AM

I dislike you trying to push your opinion off as fact.

What are you referring to? My last several posts here have all been about the subjectivity of personal preferences, different perspectives, etc. which is the exact opposite of saying my opinion is fact. I do believe some things are fact, but I'm pretty sure I haven't said that about anything that's just my opinion. If you think I'm wrong about something I said was a fact though, by all means, please inform me what it is and why you disagree. :)I do like Bionicle better, but I appreciate that HF is doing a good job too for what it can do. You seem to agree that this is a matter of taste -- we both said that. Well, if that is true, then everybody's tastes are valid, and should even be appreciated. :)There's no need to be insulted by other people's tastes. Do you really want that kind of an antagonistic atmosphere? Think how much more enjoyable this discussion would be if people disagreed without being negative about it -- rather enjoying different viewpoints. =) Since you brought up the idea of facts, one thing that is definately a fact is that different people already have different tastes, so it's simply inevitable that you're going to run into them on a discussion forum. Do you wish to get offended at every turn? Surely not. :)Also, why did you do the same thing at the start of your post that Aanchir did, and say that I said HF is Bionicle renamed, turning what I said into an absolute, when that isn't what I said? Again, I said what I said to someone who was having trouble appreciating HF, so I wanted to challenge him and anyone else who might be having similar problems to try looking at it a different way. If that way of looking at it doesn't work for you, then ignore it. It's entertainment, so it's all about enjoyment, not feeling insulted or whatever.But since this hasn't worked for you two, here's a different way -- wouldn't you say that HF is doing a good job being what it's supposed to be? What's wrong with that? I think variety can be good, at least if we have an open mind to it. It's more kiddy, sure -- but LEGO is a toy company, so that makes sense. If you think about it, neither is necessary worse quality than the other, because as has long been demonstrated and agreement found on in debates for almost a decade on this forum, there is a lot of subjectivity to quality too. Rather, each is good quality for what it's supposed to be doing -- which are similar things, but distinct.BTW, don't lose sight of why the point I was responding to was brought up -- which was that a Bionicle return would likely be more like HF than the original Bionicle. Keep in mind that a Bionicle return's main job would be to please new fans. ^_^ So however it was done, if that claim is true, that's probably more of a good thing objectively speaking than a bad thing. Remember the whole parent thing I've been talking about; this is the main opportunity I see for a return, so the parents specifically being very into the return's style is not necessarily important.All that said, we all might be getting very nearsighted about this whole "it would have to be very HFish" idea. I've seen a lot of "this is how things are now / this is how things were, so this is what we should think LEGO is likely to do in the future" logic in this debate.But does that really make sense? Who of you predicted each new year of Bionicle? Who of you predicted all the details of HF? The truth is we saw HF coming about as much as we could see a return coming or not coming -- which is basically not at all -- certainly near the end, many people, myself included, expected Bionicle to end, but we couldn't have known what its replacement would be like exactly.Thus, what HF is like does not necessarily predict what a Bionicle return would be like at all.I especially think that idea has painted an image of skyscrapers and interplanetary travel and (relative) lack of mystery in many people's minds. But I think all it would likely need is to stick to a simpler, short storyline (which BTW 2001 fit with perfectly too -- most of this other complexity only happened later anyways so isn't inherent to Bionicle) that ends in a few years, with a more HFish set direction. The style of story could be jungle and darkness and mystery -- it could be something we can't even imagine. I think we all should have more faith that LEGO would only do a return if they had a great idea for it that probably even the old fans would appreciate -- LEGO's all about imagination anyways. ^_^Keep more of an open mind about it, in other words. But certainly, don't expect a return at all. That way, if it ever happens, you can be pleasantly surprised. :biggrin:

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 07 2012 - 01:44 AM.

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#86 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 07 2012 - 12:43 PM

I dislike you trying to push your opinion off as fact.

What are you referring to? My last several posts here have all been about the subjectivity of personal preferences, different perspectives, etc. which is the exact opposite of saying my opinion is fact. I do believe some things are fact, but I'm pretty sure I haven't said that about anything that's just my opinion. If you think I'm wrong about something I said was a fact though, by all means, please inform me what it is and why you disagree. :)

My point was that the statement "HF is essentially Bionicle renamed" is your opinion, not a universal truth. That the three of us have three different opinions. I don't know why I didn't just say that, instead walking around the point. But that's what I meant.At this current point, I would have disliked applying HF-style changes to Bionicle in 2010 even worse than our current situation. I am open to an episodic story for Bionicle in the future, however, although I would prefer it if they kept the current storytelling format for it, as I like it more.

I do like Bionicle better, but I appreciate that HF is doing a good job too for what it can do. You seem to agree that this is a matter of taste -- we both said that. Well, if that is true, then everybody's tastes are valid, and should even be appreciated. :)There's no need to be insulted by other people's tastes. Do you really want that kind of an antagonistic atmosphere? Think how much more enjoyable this discussion would be if people disagreed without being negative about it -- rather enjoying different viewpoints. =) Since you brought up the idea of facts, one thing that is definately a fact is that different people already have different tastes, so it's simply inevitable that you're going to run into them on a discussion forum. Do you wish to get offended at every turn? Surely not. :)

I agree with this.

Also, why did you do the same thing at the start of your post that Aanchir did, and say that I said HF is Bionicle renamed, turning what I said into an absolute, when that isn't what I said? Again, I said what I said to someone who was having trouble appreciating HF, so I wanted to challenge him and anyone else who might be having similar problems to try looking at it a different way. If that way of looking at it doesn't work for you, then ignore it. It's entertainment, so it's all about enjoyment, not feeling insulted or whatever.

My mistake. I thought I dealt with the qualifier later in that post, but it didn't work. :(I am not opposed to your expressing your opinion on here. I think it is interesting -that's part of the reason I'm here, to hear what other people think. :)

But since this hasn't worked for you two, here's a different way -- wouldn't you say that HF is doing a good job being what it's supposed to be? What's wrong with that? I think variety can be good, at least if we have an open mind to it. It's more kiddy, sure -- but LEGO is a toy company, so that makes sense. If you think about it, neither is necessary worse quality than the other, because as has long been demonstrated and agreement found on in debates for almost a decade on this forum, there is a lot of subjectivity to quality too. Rather, each is good quality for what it's supposed to be doing -- which are similar things, but distinct.

It's like a hammer. I swing the hammer and put a nail into the wood, but I put it in the wrong place and have to yank the nail out. I don't like the end result of what the hammer did, but that doesn't change the effectiveness of the hammer.In the same way, HF is effective, but I don't like what it is effective at. That's subjective.

BTW, don't lose sight of why the point I was responding to was brought up -- which was that a Bionicle return would likely be more like HF than the original Bionicle. Keep in mind that a Bionicle return's main job would be to please new fans. ^_^ So however it was done, if that claim is true, that's probably more of a good thing objectively speaking than a bad thing. Remember the whole parent thing I've been talking about; this is the main opportunity I see for a return, so the parents specifically being very into the return's style is not necessarily important.

If the parents don't like the return, that will turn some younger kids off to it. Parents are a powerful influence, which can be a positive thing, but it can also be "I'm not going to buy this for my kid because I don't like it." Probably a subconscious thing, but sometimes those things happen in the toy aisle.

All that said, we all might be getting very nearsighted about this whole "it would have to be very HFish" idea. I've seen a lot of "this is how things are now / this is how things were, so this is what we should think LEGO is likely to do in the future" logic in this debate.But does that really make sense? Who of you predicted each new year of Bionicle? Who of you predicted all the details of HF? The truth is we saw HF coming about as much as we could see a return coming or not coming -- which is basically not at all -- certainly near the end, many people, myself included, expected Bionicle to end, but we couldn't have known what its replacement would be like exactly.Thus, what HF is like does not necessarily predict what a Bionicle return would be like at all.I especially think that idea has painted an image of skyscrapers and interplanetary travel and (relative) lack of mystery in many people's minds. But I think all it would likely need is to stick to a simpler, short storyline (which BTW 2001 fit with perfectly too -- most of this other complexity only happened later anyways so isn't inherent to Bionicle) that ends in a few years, with a more HFish set direction. The style of story could be jungle and darkness and mystery -- it could be something we can't even imagine. I think we all should have more faith that LEGO would only do a return if they had a great idea for it that probably even the old fans would appreciate -- LEGO's all about imagination anyways. ^_^Keep more of an open mind about it, in other words. But certainly, don't expect a return at all. That way, if it ever happens, you can be pleasantly surprised. :biggrin:

Absolutely. Things could change to bring Lego back to that epic serialized style. Who knows?

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#87 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 07 2012 - 03:19 PM

My point was that the statement "HF is essentially Bionicle renamed" is your opinion, not a universal truth. That the three of us have three different opinions. I don't know why I didn't just say that, instead walking around the point. But that's what I meant.

I see. Thanks for clarifying. And that was what I thought you probably meant, yeah. Just to repeat for the record, I could have worded it more clearly as just one way of looking at it. :) I just hope people aren't "throwing out the baby" (of a way of looking at it I think really can help some people like HF better) with the bathwater of poor word choice. :) My bad for that part though, lol.Also some general advice (something I have already written but not published in a blog series coming up), although this doesn't change the fact that I could have worded it better, is to simply always assume that what you are reading is meant as "just my opinion", in everybody's posts, even when it's worded otherwise. :) That was some advice some very wise people gave to me in years past on BZP and it has helped me keep a positive attitude immensely, while better understanding what people meant versus what their specific wordings were. (That said maybe I learned that half of the lesson too well and forgot to be more careful myself in wording lol. >_<)Thank you for your further clarifications; I agree with everything until this part:

If the parents don't like the return, that will turn some younger kids off to it. Parents are a powerful influence, which can be a positive thing, but it can also be "I'm not going to buy this for my kid because I don't like it." Probably a subconscious thing, but sometimes those things happen in the toy aisle.

The chances of any significant number of parents being like that are highly slim. Don't forget that the vast majority of Bionicle's sales-driving fanbase has always been with very light investment in the specifics of it. Some BZPers that tend to be vocal have the right personality to fit the scenario you describe, but we have to keep in mind we AFOLs are very unusual. Most will probably simply write off that they don't like it as much as just having grown out of it. Most former Bionicle fans did grow out of it -- and LEGO in general in fact.And again it's crucial to keep in mind that any parent preference towards Bionicle would be likely be a sales boost above and beyond the normal "new to them" fans who would buy whatever is done new and well anyways. Some rare parents choosing to deprive their kids of what they might like due to it not pleasing the parents the same way as old Bionicle did would only be a damper in this boost, and probably a tiny one at that, not a damper in the normal sales driving force.The major question, IMO, is whether anything inherent to Bionicle would be less appealing to new kids if it was new to them, and so far I haven't seen much ideas saying it wouldn't be (although my point about the made-up names being less accessible -might- hurt it, I dunno -- or they might like it more 'cuz it's more exotic :shrugs:). Although some of that could even be change, especially if it's a new world. Anywho...

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 07 2012 - 03:25 PM.

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#88 Offline You just lost the game

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Posted Apr 09 2012 - 05:54 PM

I've said it millions of times and I'll say it again, BIONICLE is over. It won't be coming back. Any rumors made are only from some random hopeful person.Even though I wish these rumors are true, they aren't. HF has taken over BIONICLE's position.
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#89 Offline badabababa obesity

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Posted Apr 09 2012 - 06:15 PM

yay dis is liekso awesomei wil spread this news
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#90 Offline Akuna Toa of Sonics

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Posted Apr 09 2012 - 08:57 PM

I honestly don't think Lego has any plans to bring Bionicle back any time soon, especially since Hero Factory has been such a success.However, if it does come back, I would think Bionicle would combine old building styles with the 2.0 system of Hero Factory.
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#91 Offline Smooth Jazz

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Posted Apr 11 2012 - 02:54 PM

I honestly don't think Lego has any plans to bring Bionicle back any time soon, especially since Hero Factory has been such a success.However, if it does come back, I would think Bionicle would combine old building styles with the 2.0 system of Hero Factory.

I doubt it. I think that they would use solely the hf building system.

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#92 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Apr 11 2012 - 08:26 PM

yaydis is liekso awesomei wil spread this news

Exhibit A for why this topic should be closed and this discussion continued elsewhere. There's a huge subset of members who are only going to read the first post and take it at face value.

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#93 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 11 2012 - 09:05 PM

I honestly don't think Lego has any plans to bring Bionicle back any time soon, especially since Hero Factory has been such a success.However, if it does come back, I would think Bionicle would combine old building styles with the 2.0 system of Hero Factory.

I doubt it. I think that they would use solely the hf building system.

Nah, I don't think they could get away with that. I think nods to how the series was originally built will attract more buyers. Plus the HF building system will probably get boring after awhile.

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#94 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 11 2012 - 10:19 PM

yaydis is liekso awesomei wil spread this news

Exhibit A for why this topic should be closed and this discussion continued elsewhere. There's a huge subset of members who are only going to read the first post and take it at face value.

No matter where the discussion goes, we simply do not know the future, so that complaint could be made of any other topic on this subject -- that's a matter of the behavior of those members; it wouldn't change just by making a different topic. And the topic starter gave some cautions in the first post, so face value could be worse. :)But the topic can die by itself if yall stop posting in it. :P

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 11 2012 - 10:55 PM.

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#95 Offline Aris621

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Posted Apr 13 2012 - 06:50 AM

Well, I actually don't really care about it. Now BIONICLE has been canceled, I can finaly start to collect the older sets I don't have (like sets from 2001-2003). But of course I would be very happy if BIONICLE will return.. :D
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#96 Offline Meiko

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Posted Apr 15 2012 - 06:17 PM

The one problem I have when people say that Hero Factory is BIONICLE's replacement is that I find it untrue. Yes, I'm one to not wish for BIONICLE's return and I have my reasons. I find it sort of annoying though when people insist that Hero Factory replaced BIONICLE because it's not supposed to be a replacement. Hero Factory is a new attempt with a different strategy entirely. Yes, it is the closest replication of BIONICLE and of course LEGO designed Hero Factory to introduce a new articulated action figure-like theme, but LEGO never has specifically "replaced" a theme. You can think of it with some of the following examples:
    [*]Dino Attack/LEGO Dino — Dino Attack was about people protecting the planet from Dinosaurs, while LEGO Dino is about people protecting the Dinosaurs while being humane, and to research them.[*]Life on Mars/Mars Mission — Life on Mars was about humans discovering peaceful aliens on Mars, while Mars Mission was about hums invading Mars to retrieve crystals, and the aliens used force to stop them.[/list]The only real exception to this that I can think of is the transition of World City to LEGO City, but that was more of a renaming process, as the characteristics of the theme didn't really change.The point I'm trying to bring out is that both parties, those who want BIONICLE to return and those who don't, both make the same mistake. Whether they like Hero Factory or not both parties make the common mistake by saying Hero Factory replaced BIONICLE. LEGO doesn't just "replace" a theme. ;)

    Edited by Meiko, Apr 15 2012 - 06:18 PM.

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#97 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 15 2012 - 06:27 PM

Meiko, I think what people mean by saying Hero Factory replaced Bionicle is simply that Bionicle ended and Hero Factory started, with some overlap of the roles they play. "Re" plus "place" -- Hero Factory fills the same "place" within the LEGO lineup as Bionicle, but that doesn't mean what is in that place is the same. :)
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#98 Offline LordofBionicles

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Posted Apr 15 2012 - 07:01 PM

although I would love it to be real, I don´t think those are good enough reasons for BIONICLE´s comeback, our only hope is to wait and keep the flame alive like Greg said, I believe one thing that´s helping on that are the Faber Files, remember Christian Faber said over 20,000 views on the past week!
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#99 Offline Meiko

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Posted Apr 15 2012 - 07:10 PM

although I would love it to be real, I don´t think those are good enough reasons for BIONICLE´s comeback, our only hope is to wait and keep the flame alive like Greg said, I believe one thing that´s helping on that are the Faber Files, remember Christian Faber said over 20,000 views on the past week!

Still, it's not enough of a reason for LEGO to bring the theme back. The chances of LEGO bringing the them back are about zero. When I attended BrickFair the past year, a LEGO official announced when a fan asked: "BIONICLE is not planned to ever return". LEGO hasn't ever recreated a theme. When a theme stops to perform as it had used to, they can't expect it to start being popular again.

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#100 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Apr 16 2012 - 10:52 AM

although I would love it to be real, I don´t think those are good enough reasons for BIONICLE´s comeback, our only hope is to wait and keep the flame alive like Greg said, I believe one thing that´s helping on that are the Faber Files, remember Christian Faber said over 20,000 views on the past week!

Still, it's not enough of a reason for LEGO to bring the theme back. The chances of LEGO bringing the them back are about zero. When I attended BrickFair the past year, a LEGO official announced when a fan asked: "BIONICLE is not planned to ever return". LEGO hasn't ever recreated a theme. When a theme stops to perform as it had used to, they can't expect it to start being popular again.

Technically, LEGO has recreated themes. Space Police is the prime example. But I don't see the same thing happening with BIONICLE.And on the subject of whether HF did or did not replace BIONICLE, I'm just going to mention that I believe I've read that the Hero Factory concept dated back to before BIONICLE's end. I don't know whether this means that LEGO was already considering BIONICLE's replacement at that point, or whether they may have at one point intended to have two constraction lines running concurrently. I like to think of Hero Factory as more than just BIONICLE renamed, even if functionally it serves the same purpose: an action figure line aimed at the same audience. I think of it more as a successor, akin to the many castle themes LEGO has produced. It's the same concept, but it's a radical restructuring of that basic concept that could not have been done as effectively within the constraints of the original theme.Bonesiii, you mentioned that it's not inconceivable that Hero Factory could have fit into the BIONICLE universe if that were LEGO's intention, but I think LEGO specifically took the opportunity BIONICLE's end provided to create a new universe unfettered by the baggage of universal rules BIONICLE had established in its own universe. For instance, in Hero Factory elemental powers are solely connected to weapons, and there is no system of how they are depleted or replenished, unlike BIONICLE with its inherent semi-magical system of absorbing or releasing elemental energy. BIONICLE once came close to doing away with the complex system of elements in 2009, by introducing the Glatorian, who had no elemental powers -- but before the year was through, thanks to the Mask of Life the Glatorian had been granted these powers, too!What I'm trying to say (and taking way too long to do so) is that yes, from the point of view of a parent or other observer who sees the sets without being aware of both of their complex stories, Hero Factory may indeed be BIONICLE renamed. But both of them are in fact story themes, and you can't just divorce the story from the sets and claim to have the full picture. And in terms of story, the themes have undergone a complete genre shift. BIONICLE is Science Fantasy at its finest (as you once observed in a blog entry, if I remember correctly), whereas Hero Factory is straight-up Science Fiction, if on the softer end of the spectrum. And that sort of change is more than a renaming can account for.

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#101 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 16 2012 - 11:54 AM

Bonesiii, you mentioned that it's not inconceivable that Hero Factory could have fit into the BIONICLE universe if that were LEGO's intention, but I think LEGO specifically took the opportunity BIONICLE's end provided to create a new universe unfettered by the baggage of universal rules BIONICLE had established in its own universe. For instance, in Hero Factory elemental powers are solely connected to weapons, and there is no system of how they are depleted or replenished, unlike BIONICLE with its inherent semi-magical system of absorbing or releasing elemental energy. BIONICLE once came close to doing away with the complex system of elements in 2009, by introducing the Glatorian, who had no elemental powers -- but before the year was through, thanks to the Mask of Life the Glatorian had been granted these powers, too!

Bionicle has had many powers that apparently don't get depleted, including masks and tool powers, and if Bionicle wanted to change those rules on a different planet or in the distant future it would be a very small change. Also you may be overstating this principle; the HF storyline I've followed has centered at least one plot on the Hero Cores running out of power. Finally, as you had to start admitting here because of the example you picked, Bionicle had already altered the original rules in various ways. There are no universal rules in Bionicle; just rules that apply where they make story-logic sense to apply or are the kinds of conflict the storytellers want to use in a particular story. :)Another good example would be that new heroes must learn their mask powers. That was a rule the storytellers found interesting in 2004, but it would have been boring to re-use. So in 2006 they changed the rule for the Inika. In 2007 they didn't even bother to explain why the rule was different although we could infer it was the Ignika at work; it simply was not interesting to the storytellers so they dropped the rule there. Once you tell a story about a rule, it tends to get boring to tell the same basic plot over and over again, so the rules tend to change, not to stay constant. :)

Hero Factory may indeed be BIONICLE renamed

You too are rewording what I said to make it an absolute. I never said that, and I went out of my way to clarify that. ;) Obviously there are major differences, intentionally so, but in its essence, HF does the same basic thing as Bionicle, roboticlike heroes with elemental powers and balljoints, etc. Also most of the differences between HF and Bionicle are no bigger than the differences between Bionicle's different years, different species within the story, and possible differences on the other planets we haven't seen etc.In other words, it is an accurate statement to say that HF is different from Bionicle as we know it, but what I'm pointing out is that Bionicle is not anywhere near as limited to just what it has done before as some of you seem to think. :) Don't make the mistake of thinking "what Bionicle happened to do so far" is the same thing as "that is all Bionicle could ever do." Bionicle was always changing while it lasted, and if it had continued it would have continued changing, so logic relying on constants, especially superficial ones, is highly questionable.The fallaciousness of that kind of thinking is especially obvious to me when over the years this same thinking has been applied to many things we all were saying Bionicle would never do, especially space travel and other planets, and lo and behold, Bionicle did it. Yall who are disagreeing with me on this are making the same argument as people did about that and many other things, and all those arguments proved wrong in the end. (It even turned out that space travel had been planned all along!) Am I the only one who has noticed that as these radical changes take place, people keep adapting the same logic to the "new Bionicle" and seemingly not noticing that it had failed over and over? I think we should simply learn the lesson that Bionicle is highly adaptable. :)It's like arguing, "Oh, Ford will never make a car that looks like this, all their past cars had a similar style.... Oh, whoops, Ford went and made a new car that does look like that.... Well, Ford will never make a car that looks like this! Oh... Whoops... Well..." etc. Well, if Ford went out of business, you could argue "Ford will never make a car that looks like THIS... now..." But you couldn't reasonably argue, "Ford couldn't have made a car like that if they'd stayed in business." No, the person who really wants to make accurate predictions should say, "Ford might make cars like that if they choose to." ;) And that's what I'm saying, basically.True, now that it's over and if it doesn't come back, we will never know where else Bionicle might have gone, but robotic heroes from a factory, and space travel across major worlds, etc. are well within the realm of possibility. :) Far less radical a deviation from currently established Bionicle than space travel was from the old Bionicle, if you believed the old incarnation of this logic (and frankly I did believe it lol -- although I was one of the lone voices pointing out the skyhopping canisters gave a slight foothold into the space travel genre so it was possible).I just think many of you would be helped by having some perspective -- I also notice the ones of you arguing with me on this tend not to be the same people who have followed debates like this for as long as I have, and that's probably not a coincidence. :P It's an innocent mistake, but one that experience tends to clearly show to be a mistake. :) And since I do have that experience, I'm giving you some perspective. Yall would be wise to seriously consider it. ;)But this distinction is not that important to a question of a Bionicle return, because do any of us think that such a return would steal HF's core story formula? No, it would probably be more similar in the sets, and perhaps might call the main characters heroes, but it would almost certainly not use a factory, etc. It would have a new storyline (slightly possibly a true reboot retelling 2001, etc.) -- something different again, which we can't predict. So the real point is, if Bionicle returns, it might be very different from what Bionicle's past years are, just as Bionicle's past years were often very different from each other. :)Does that help? ^_^Edit: In fact, this would be fun to think about. What major difference, storywise, is there, even, between the "realms of possibilities" of HF and Bionicle? Bionicle certainly had factories, it had robots (even biomechanical beings who mutated into Bohrok robots), it had a vast unknown number of alien planets that were once reached by space travel, it had limited forays even into time travel, alternate dimensions of all kinds of wildly different variety -- it had batteries that run out and others that don't seem to ;) -- black holes, advanced technology, primitive civilization, islands and planets... Seriously, what is it that anybody thinks HF has, storywise, that is not already present in some way in Bionicle?When you look at it that way, all HF did was use the same ingredients as in Bionicle but in different combinations than Bionicle happened to use yet. :) Put the factory here as the center of the plot rather than some side-story, make the robots the heroes and citizens instead of just enemies, etc. The differences are more about the way they use ingredients, IMO, than about what specific ingredients are "on the table."Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is the use of English names like William Deeks... I mean Furno. :P But again, that simply shows that it's not exactly Bionicle renamed, but it's a small difference. It doesn't change the fact that the essences of the two are the same.

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 16 2012 - 12:32 PM.

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#102 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 17 2012 - 05:30 PM

So I was posting in another topic when this hit me.  At the beginning of 2004, you could jump into the story with no backstory as a necessary requirement. I think that was part of Bionicle's sustainability as much as anything - you could theorectically jump in at any point in the first part of Bionicle (2001-05) because it was circular. (End of 2005 connects back to beginning of 2001)You also could theorectically jump in at the beginning of 2006, but it would be harder, because you would be missing the background on the Toa Inika and Nuva and the earilier mentions of the Dark Hunters - 2007-08 was when the backstory really started to pile up and get confusing and stop new fans from getting in. So, if Bionicle were to come back, would a prequel cycle like the old Bionicle had at the beginning be a good idea? I notice that sales supposedly went down after 2006, and that would correlate with the other trend I notice, correct? If there was a marketing mistake, it was what they did after 2001-05, I think - maybe should have taken one year after the cycle was done and ended it there, rather than dragging it out for more backstory-piling years. [Edit: They should have cut the "Mata Nui is dying" plot IMO, seeing as it was mostly unecessary :P]That's probably the reasoning they used behind that BM reboot - it worked in 2004. Except that those of us who were invested in Bionicle expected it to contenue to be more complicated, not simple. 2004 required no backstory to get into, but it was more complicated than the previous years. That's the ultimate storyline goal; bring in new fans while keeping the old fans interested. That's what 2004 did, and it worked. I think that Lego has forgotten this. There's probably a way to do the ultimate without the prequel idea I described, but they could probably do it again. Especially with Bionicle. Why just attract new fans or satisfy the old fans when you can do both? It happened once, it can again. :)

Edited by fishers64, Apr 17 2012 - 08:06 PM.

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#103 Offline Plague

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Posted Jun 24 2012 - 12:25 PM

This sounds plausible. As someone said on the LEGO messageboards: " well ya bionikel wil come back becuz thay havnt removed it frum the products board yet"
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#104 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 24 2012 - 02:07 PM

This sounds plausible. As someone said on the LEGO messageboards: " well ya bionikel wil come back becuz thay havnt removed it frum the products board yet"

Plague, this is topic revival; posting in a topic that has been inactive for longer than the revival limit in a particular forum division (thirty days in this case). Next time please check the date of the last post before posting, and read the pinned rules at the top of that forum division to make sure it's within the limit. :)Closed.

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