Writing Advice

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

On titles, I need some help. The overall saga is called Eons, and it has 8 "books" - however, two "books" will be told in parallel for each "novel" (I use the terms loosely - it's more likely to be a web serial than a published work). The parallel part is important - one chapter might have a spaceship chase, the next might be a sword duel 3,000 years in the past. If I were to compare my plan to something I've read, it would be almost like "Holes".Right now the plan is:Novel 1 - Books 2 and 6Novel 2 - Books 5 and 7Novel 3 - Books 3 and 4Novel 4- Books 1 and 8I was thinking of using a common theme of both "books" in the title - something like "Eons: Sedigo" for Novel 2. (Sedigo is a planet where a lot of stuff happens)

[Vigor Mortis]

Can you provide more information on this?

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Hmm... not sure how much information I can give without giving a whole summary of the series, which would take a while. (Not as long as Kraggh, though... geez, 18 books!?)I'll start with a quick summary of Books 2 and 6 (Novel 1). I'll leave out the endings, though - spoilers are bad before the story's even been written!Also, keep in mind again that these are told in parallel, chapter by chapter.Eons: Book 2 (ancient fantasy - I wouldn't say medieval, there's no castles or knights or the like)

A community of (human) merchants, known as the Saekiin (Blasted Skyrim took my "kiin" suffix...) live on a massive city-boat, essentially the size of an aircraft carrier. For... 500 years? they have been looking for solid ground to call home after being driven from their original land by some unidentified enemy. Unfortunately, every island they have explored is occupied by another tribe or civilization, or is simply too small and barren to support them. The oceans they sail are surrounded by jagged, impassible rocks a few hundred miles (size not final) to either side. That is, they only have a radius of a few hundred miles to sail. To their north is a large peninsula - the mainland is inaccessible due to its mountains, and no Saekiin has ever returned from an expedition to the peninsula (todo: that peninsula needs a name).When the story starts, a Saekiin named Corrad leads an expedition to a small island that has not yet been charted. The island, apparently, has a population of one young man who does not take well to the Saekiin felling trees in his home. Eventually, he agrees to let the Saekiin take resources from his island if they take him along as well. When asked his name, the native claims he has none and that he has lived on that island for his entire life.The unnamed native is accepted in Saekiin society and eventually named after a semi-unimportant figure from their history that interested him for some reason. (todo: figure out that name ). The newcomer turns out to be extremely skilled with a sword, using a form that has not been seen before. This makes the Saekiin much more popular among the other island civilizations that need help driving monsters away from their crops and things like that, and he coaches the Saekiin in swordplay. Gradually, the focus shifts to the newcomer's point of view and he becomes the main character.After several years, he becomes restless, feeling that he's contributed all he can to their society. The elders understand and cautiously offer him a mission: scout the mysterious, deadly peninsula. The main character agrees, though he knows he probably won't survive.The main character encounters harsh waves when he approaches the peninsula and his landing raft shatters, dumping him on the beach. The waves don't show any sign of calming, so even if he built a new raft, he could not leave the peninsula. He is trapped.He enters to forest adjacent to the beach and a dragon attacks him. (note: dragons in Eons are smaller than most - about eye-level to a human) After a struggle, he barely manages to pin it to the ground, sword at its neck. As he does so, he sees in its eyes that it knows it is about to die, and it stares defiantly into death. Shaken, he subconsciously relaxes his grip, and the dragon escapes his headlock and disappears into the forest.A moment later, a man grabs the main character's arm and leads him away, telling him he should have killed the dragon when he had the chance, that he was lucky it didn't kill him the second it was free. The main character manages to get more information out of the stranger: he is named Broquiin, he is a native of the land, the peninsula is filled with dragons, and the sea is impassibly violent year-round.Broquiin eventually leads him to a cave, telling him he is about to meet his mentor, Nalfaer. Once the hero enters the cave, Nalfaer turns out to be another dragon. Nalfaer, instead of killing him, speaks and greets him. The hero, trying to figure out what's going on, turns to look at Broquiin. Broquiin just smiles knowingly, and, before his eyes, transforms into the first dragon."I'm dead," he thought.

Whew, that went on longer than I expected. Part 2 comes... later. Book 6 summary... much later.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Jedi Knight Krazy

[Takatu]

Sorry if I'm interrupting an ongoing conversation, haven't been around in a while, but if I could get a quick opinion, that would be great. 8D The villain of my story isn't human, although he is humanoid. I'm looking for a way to make his appearance a little unsettling. Not quite like Silent Hill-level nightmare stuff, but like something that would make someone feel uneasy looking at him. I'm thinking facial features (or lack thereof), but I can't really decide on anything.A good example is like Voldemort. After a while you get used to seeing him like that, but it doesn't make the lack of a nose any less weird looking. I thought about maybe having him have no nose or mouth, but I'm afraid he'd end up looking too much like a Protoss from StarCraft. So what do you guys think?

[WriterofReapers]

Pure black/white eyes. I can't imagine anybody seeing those and thinking to themselves, "Hey, that looks perfectly normal."

[Takatu]

That thought did cross my mind. I may still do that, but what's still holding me back is the fact that he skin is a mottled dark gray. Black eyes just might look weird with that. May still do white, although I've seen a lot black/dark-skinned monsters in movies and such with that going on. Still could be very effective, though.

[Vigor Mortis]

Make it so that he can peel back his skin on his head like a banana peel at will. Worse yet, he prefers to normally appear this way.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

No lips. Make the skin attach directly to the gums, with nothing covering the teeth. Kind of like a reptile.EDIT: Vigor, I don't think he wants the character to be quite that unsettling. Just creepy, not I'll-never-sleep-again.

Edited December 12, 2011 by The Shadows Out of Time

[Takatu]

LOL yeah, he's going to be very prominent, can't have him incredibly nightmare-inducing. XD All I've got so far is that he's extremely tall, abnormally long fingers, gray, mottled skin, black armor and long tentacles he can sprout from his back at will.Actually, The Shadows Out of Time's avatar is a pretty solid example of something I'm looking for. It's from Doctor Who, right? Something in that vein could work well...

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

I suppose some elements of the appearance of the Silence could work, though I'm rather fond of the idea of a villain with no lips. Can you imagine how freaky a person would look with their teeth uncovered 24/7? Give him the eye-sockets of a Silence (the eyes are there, they're just hidden by the depth of the sockets) with larger eyes inside the sockets (Silence have really small eyes), and you're probably good to go. Probably don't give him external ears.

Edited December 12, 2011 by The Shadows Out of Time

[Takatu]

Probably would take very little directly from that example, if anything, but it's a good idea of the level of other-ness I'm thinking of. No lips is a good idea, though...

[Jean Valjean]

The moment you said unsettling I thought of the Mouth of Sauron. It's a deleted scene, but you can easily look it up. It was pretty unsettling. Of course, that one was dependent on having lip instead of the other way around, because it was interesting that he held them back most of the time.Anyway, one of my most recent characters was based off of him. Or at least the idea of the mouth and no eyes.Your Honor,Emperor Kraggh

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

So I've been working on finishing that plot outline I was posting, and I've run into some complications... namely, completely re-thinking the plot because it made no sense before. Essentially, I started running through the story in my head to answer the question of "what happens next", and it turned out completely differently than I had planned. Places that were never meant to be seen at this point in the story become major settings, characters change roles, and the hero's objectives are totally different.In fact, earlier in planning, one character betrayed his allies later in the story, but it didn't really fit his personality, so I split him into two characters. Now the original character is back to a traitor and his "twin" has a completely different role than any character previous planned!Has anyone else had this happen before?

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jedi Knight Krazy

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

Yeah, stories mutate all the time. Sounds like you're making some decent progress, just go with the flow.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... So, I've been brainstorming my story a ton lately (not actually writing any chapters, just brainstorming) and the ending of my story changed from something kinda fantastic to something a little more realistic and mysterious. I like the new ending a lot better, actually, but has anything like this happened to any other writers here? Having a planned project that changed significantly over time (without planning on changing anything)? And then he read the posts above his and realized a very similar question has just been asked. XDSo, that will be my response. Yes, something like that has happened to me while writing one of my stories. XD

[GSR]

I think that it's almost a bad sign if your story doesn't change during development; to me that usually signals that I've oversimplified something somewhere along the line, be it a character's motivations or the logical fallout from past events.

[Padishah Mehmet II]

My whole plotline had to be effectively changed once.Then, another month later, I looked at it again.I realized it was worthless from beginning to end, completely irredeemable, so I scrapped it altogether.-Dovydas

[Legolover-361]

Practically all of my stories have gone through some sort of change. I had to keep rewriting the climax of my Short Story Contest 8 entry, Ignition, because it didn't work. The one thing that didn't change at all, though, was the opening scene.I think that says that while changing your story around can be a good thing, changing its base can easily cause it to collapse. You need a main idea for your story, and what's more, a main idea you can stick by.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Legolover-361

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... Not too sure if we've brushed on this before, but what are everyone's thoughts on mystery? I'm a huge fan of the genre and while I write with a cryptic style, I've never actually attempted to write a mystery (the closest thing would be my current epic).What elements does everyone use or where do you usually start? I'm sure there's a lot to consider, like when to reveal certain plot points and such.Just curious. ^^'

[Takatu]

Mysteries are always good, because you can include it in with pretty much any other genre. Heck, the vast majority of books and stories I've read include a mystery in there somewhere. People love to try to guess what's going on.

[Dralcax]

Mysteries are always good, because you can include it in with pretty much any other genre. Heck, the vast majority of books and stories I've read include a mystery in there somewhere. People love to try to guess what's going on.

However, a mystery requires some level of brainpower and trivia, because if you give the audience the clues, the average person shouldn't be able to guess. Otherwise it gets pretty predictable. Fantasy/sci fi stories are easier. Random modifier + Random noun = Decent subject. Or just answer the question, "What if?" Edited December 30, 2011 by Chaos Makuta: Dralcax

[Nuile the Paracosmic Tulpa]

It depends upon the type of mystery to which you are referring. Most genres are highly vague, and mystery is no exception. Hence, as Takatu said, mystery can be combined with just about any genre.But personally, when I hear "mystery" I immediately think of the subgenre, detective fiction, of which I consider myself a tyro connoiseur. If it is that specifically which you would like opinions on I would be happy to dissertate further. In general, however, I'll make a few observations: First, a mystery should be progressive, it should be elaborated over time. A question asked and later answered isn't enough to be a mystery. Second, revelation should be sudden and dramatic. In detective fiction, nothing beats the sleuth speaking to the assembled suspects, ending with the time-honored words, "And the killer is . . ." Another example is when the unidentified silhouette steps into the light or, better, is illuminated by a flash of lightning. These aren't clichés; these are classics.My opinion on mystery, which applies to traditional mysteries as well as mystery elements in other genres, is that human beings are naturally curious. Who can resist the temptation to find out the answers to unanswered questions and attempt to arrive at the solution themselves before it is revealed? I never could, and never will.

Mysteries are always good, because you can include it in with pretty much any other genre. Heck, the vast majority of books and stories I've read include a mystery in there somewhere. People love to try to guess what's going on.

However, a mystery requires some level of brainpower and trivia, because if you give the audience the clues, the average person shouldn't be able to guess. Otherwise it gets pretty predictable. Fantasy/sci fi stories are easier. Random modifier + Random noun = Decent subject. Or just answer the question, "What if?"

I say it still depends upon the type of mystery to which you are referring. Mystery elements in other genres, to which Dralcax was referring, are generally less involved. In such cases, "mystery" doesn't mean what it means in the dictionary of a true mystery fan.From the desk of Nuile: Lunatic Wordsmith Edited December 30, 2011 by Nuile: Lunatic Wordsmith

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Mystery is definitely good, and definitely not relegated to a genre of its own. I think a great example of mystery is the first two Harry Potter books: there was something going on, but the heroes had to figure out what and who for themselves, and that made the books much more interesting to read.That said, I think that mystery can easily cause readers to lose interest if done improperly. It has to stay engaging; you have to offer some conclusions throughout, or readers might get bored with constant hints and clues but getting nowhere. It also has to have decent closure - sometimes I'll ask "So what?" after a poorly executed "and the killer is..."

[TNTOS]

Yes, the HP books - not just the first two books - pulled off mysteries excellently. In fact, that was what drew me into the HP series in the first place. When I saw how well Rowling planned her mysteries, to say my interest was piqued is a dramatic understatement.Anyway, I use mysteries all the time in my stories. What I like to do is sprinkle little hints and clues here and there, enough for the reader to start guessing, but not enough for the average reader to figure it out before the reveal (unless they're very careful readers). If the readers figures out the mystery well before it happens, then I probably revealed too much hints.Note that I said well before it happens. If the reader figures it out, say, about a paragraph or two before the reveal, then that is perfectly okay because they were going to find out soon anyway, regardless of whether they figured it for out or not. But if you plan to answer the mystery in Chapter 20 and your reader figures it out in Chapter 4 or 5, then it is probably not a good mystery.Good mysteries keep the reader guessing and theorizing. Sometimes, the reader figures it out before the reveal; other times, their theories were completely wrong. Or they figure out some of it, but the rest of it is unclear until the reveal. Speaking as a reader, I always have fun guessing and theorizing when reading stories with mysteries in them. It makes me want to keep reading them even if the rest of the story isn't that good.Not that that means you should write a cruddy story and focus solely on the mystery. A mystery is but one part of a story; it may be a major, maybe even integral, part, but a part nonetheless. Don't get so caught up in your mystery that your plot fails, your characters are cardboard thin, and your setting is vague and unrealistic. The mystery should be incorporated into the story, along with everything else, and if it isn't and is just tacked on to a bad story in the hopes of making it good, then the story must be rewritten and the mystery incorporated more smoothly. If you can't do that, you should probably cut the mystery out altogether.So yeah. There're my two and a half cents of thoughts about mysteries. My word's not final, obviously, but this is what I have found works for me and for fiction writers in general.-TNTOS-

[Legolover-361]

I'll generally leave a tiny sort of mystery in every one of my stories. Sometimes it's something small, like a small hole in a character's backstory, so people can imagine what happened (for example, my short story How Could I? talks about a drug addict who soon regrets his decisions, but I never explicitly mention how he got into drugs). Other times the mystery is the point of the story (in Ignition, my entry to SSC8, the main mystery was whether Nuparu would refuse to build the Vahki or not). True, the two aforementioned mysteries aren't whodunits, but they are questions the reader may want to have answered. That's the mystery element I include in a lot of stories: I want readers to ask questions, and I want the questions the readers should answer themselves to go mainly unanswered in my stories.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

@Legolover - Personally, I don't consider either of those to be mysteries. In How Could I? it was just an element left to the reader's imagination, unimportant to the current plot. As for Ignition, I haven't read it, but a future action or decision isn't really a mystery to me; it's suspense. (And, unless your story takes place in an alternate universe, any canon-savvy reader already knows the answer. Just saying )The way I approach mysteries actually starts with a big reveal - then I realize it completely comes out of nowhere, so I have to decide on ways to hint at it without giving it away.My goal would be for the reader to, in theory, have enough information to piece it together roughly one chapter before the reveal, but the hints should be scattered enough that they probably won't draw the connections. Plus, by that point, the story's moving fast enough that the reader might not stop to think about solving a mystery. (At least I'd like to think I could write a page-turner!)

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... Perhaps I really was being a bit too vague. XDI was referring to stories that focus mainly on the mystery; ones that are designed to keep the reader guessing and one that focuses on something unknown that is possible to be revealed (whether or not it actually is revealed). Take Phoenix Wright or 9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors (okay, these are game examples, but they're text-based games and it's all about the story with them). Phoenix Wright is highly "Whodunnit" and 999 is more of a "What's going on?" type of theme. Through collecting evidence and progressing through the plot you slowly piece together the entire story to find the truth (as the stories are designed to keep you guessing while still revealing events little by little). In other words, yes, the sub-genre detective fiction was the type of story I was getting at. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Nuile. ^^Then again, I did just see the new Sherlock Holmes movie. I haven't read any of the books, but I liked this one better than the first. The first was just really really grand in its reveals and everything to me just seemed a little too over-the-top with the whole "magic" devices. Not to say that's a bad thing, it's just not my cup of tea for that kind of story.Interesting question: Where do you draw the line between mystery and suspense (if you think there is a line at all)?As for story reveals, my story has more than one reveal to it. Actually, it's turned pretty complex over time, and I'm trying to figure out how to keep my audience interested. The first important reveal is easily guessed at, and I'm sure my readers have already figured that part out. The question is "when do I reveal that to my characters?" I do have a sort of omniscient character in there, so I was thinking maybe jump to that character's point of view and confirm that point, or focus on my characters trying to figure things out on their own? The main thing is, if I do that and reveal what was suspected, do I jump in with the next big mystery to keep them guessing? (Okay, so I seriously doubt I'll get a lot of help with this issue as it's not easy to see where I'm coming from if what I'm talking about is unknown. XD).@Jedi Knight Krazy: I have read Ignition, and I can assure you that even if you're a canon-savvy fan, the story is not so simple. There's a reason that story got far in the SS8 contest. Edited December 30, 2011 by Tekulo: Toa of Gales

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Interesting question: Where do you draw the line between mystery and suspense (if you think there is a line at all)?

To me, suspense is any important unknown; any question that readers really want to know the answer to. The most common form is "what's going to happen next?"Mystery is a subset of suspense where the unknown is already decided - so the question is usually past-tense ("Whodunnit?"), but sometimes present-tense ("What's going on here?").

As for story reveals, my story has more than one reveal to it. Actually, it's turned pretty complex over time, and I'm trying to figure out how to keep my audience interested. The first important reveal is easily guessed at, and I'm sure my readers have already figured that part out. The question is "when do I reveal that to my characters?" I do have a sort of omniscient character in there, so I was thinking maybe jump to that character's point of view and confirm that point, or focus on my characters trying to figure things out on their own? The main thing is, if I do that and reveal what was suspected, do I jump in with the next big mystery to keep them guessing? (Okay, so I seriously doubt I'll get a lot of help with this issue as it's not easy to see where I'm coming from if what I'm talking about is unknown. XD).

I usually avoid letting readers know more than my main characters whenever possible, especially when their ignorance would get them into trouble while the reader is shouting at the page.This isn't really relevant to the discussion, but I also never let main characters figure out something that the readers don't know.Without knowing the exact context of the question, I would have the characters figure it out (or let Mr. Cosmic Know-It-All tell them) as soon as possible after I think the readers have it down. Then, instead of dropping them into the next mystery, I would start dropping hints as the characters deal with the implications of the first reveal... sort of a meta-mystery, if that makes sense; instead of guessing the answer to the mystery, readers would be guessing if there even is a mystery.

@Jedi Knight Krazy: I have read Ignition, and I can assure you that even if you're a canon-savvy fan, the story is not so simple. There's a reason that story got far in the SS8 contest.

My mistake I'll be sure to go read that when I have a chance Edited December 30, 2011 by Jedi Knight Krazy

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

Personally, I like making good use of dramatic irony. Any bit of important information that the reader knows but the character doesn't can be used to great effect if you know what you're doing.Having a character know things the reader doesn't can also work out well, but you've got to be careful to avoid using that to instantly turn a dangerous situation into a harmless way to show off how smart your character is. Then, of course, there's having the character pretend to know things everybody else doesn't, which is great fun.

[~Shockwave~]

question: what is a fanfic?ive been trying to demonstrate to my friend that one similarity merits a fanfic (unless i claim that avatar the last airbender is a fanfic of bionicle by that logic, but no that's pure blasphemy!)so, uh yeah. um an answer please.if this doesn't go here i'm sorry, it seemed an appropriate place for itto add to the last post its also pretty entertaining to hide a hint to a very inportant piece of info and watching everyone overlook it

Edited December 30, 2011 by bumblebee

[GSR]

I would define a fanfic as a work of fiction that is based in an existing work, or uses significant elements of that work in an alternate setting. A fic about a Toa named Sal living in Metru Nui is a fanfic. A fic about a group of six friends in college named Tahu, Gali, etc. who share personalities with the Toa Mata is a fanfic, ableit one that makes use of an AU (note: please don't ever write "my-favorite-characters-in-high school/college" fics, they are far too common and very rarely any good). A fic about a college student named Sal who mentions she has a friend named Tahu isn't really a fanfic, just an original piece of fiction with a slight nod to something else.

Edited December 30, 2011 by GSR

[~Shockwave~]

okay, so the mech bike one of my characters has is a reference to the robotech bikes, and doesn't make it a tf fanficwhat about being able to control the elements, in a completely different way than i've seen used in any other story?

[GSR]

okay, so the mech bike one of my characters has is a reference to the robotech bikes, and doesn't make it a tf fanficwhat about being able to control the elements, in a completely different way than i've seen used in any other story?

Then that would be an original fic, not a fanfic. You're using the trope of elemental powers, which is in any number of things, but saying a fic with elemental powers is automatically a Bionicle fanfic is like saying a fic with a murder trial is automatically a Phoenix Wright fanfic. Generally speaking, I'd say use of specific characters, settings, and ideas from an existing work is what defines a fanfic.

[~Shockwave~]

okay, that's what i thought. now somebody explain that to her! thanks for the info

[Legolover-361]

@Legolover - Personally, I don't consider either of those to be mysteries. In How Could I? it was just an element left to the reader's imagination, unimportant to the current plot. As for Ignition, I haven't read it, but a future action or decision isn't really a mystery to me; it's suspense. (And, unless your story takes place in an alternate universe, any canon-savvy reader already knows the answer. Just saying )

Suspense is making the reader wait for questions to be answered. While it's not a whodunnit, it still presents questions to the reader, just in the form of suspense.As for Ignition, I wrote it to adhere to canon, but the contest wasn't about canon stories so there was still an element of suspense.

Interesting question: Where do you draw the line between mystery and suspense (if you think there is a line at all)?

I see the line between mystery and suspense as hazy at best. Whodunnits are the purest mystery stories; however, it's possible to write a mysterious story that relies more on a mystery-suspense hybrid than any real mystery. that's all my opinion, of course.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Personally, I like making good use of dramatic irony. Any bit of important information that the reader knows but the character doesn't can be used to great effect if you know what you're doing.Having a character know things the reader doesn't can also work out well, but you've got to be careful to avoid using that to instantly turn a dangerous situation into a harmless way to show off how smart your character is. Then, of course, there's having the character pretend to know things everybody else doesn't, which is great fun.

I wouldn't say it's universally a bad thing, but it's something I generally avoid as part of my writing style.Actually, the more I think about it, reader knowledge and character ignorance is unavoidable if you have more than one main character (I've got several just in Book 2), so I'm going to have to learn to use what you called "dramatic irony". Can you share any good examples from popular books/movies?

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

Uh, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Almost positive Caesar didn't know in advance about the assassination plan. Read through it, you'll see good use of dramatic irony.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Also in Shakespeare's MacBeth where the witches predict that only when the woods move to the top of the hill will MacBeth be defeated. They made it sound like he was invincible and that only an impossible act would bring about his doom. The dramatic irony was when we saw the soldiers use the woods to disguise themselves as they moved up the hill (something MacBeth didn't consider as a possibility). Or, at least that's what I think you're talking about when you say dramatic irony... ^^;

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

Yeah, when the reader knows something the character doesn't, you've got plenty of dramatic irony.

[Nuile the Paracosmic Tulpa]

Mystery is definitely good, and definitely not relegated to a genre of its own. I think a great example of mystery is the first two Harry Potter books: there was something going on, but the heroes had to figure out what and who for themselves, and that made the books much more interesting to read.That said, I think that mystery can easily cause readers to lose interest if done improperly. It has to stay engaging; you have to offer some conclusions throughout, or readers might get bored with constant hints and clues but getting nowhere. It also has to have decent closure - sometimes I'll ask "So what?" after a poorly executed "and the killer is..."

You raise another point: the importance of execution. Drama can easily become melodrama if you're not careful. Revealings in mysteries must be dramatic and surprising, yet believable and logical. Readers should feel they came close to solving the mystery. It should seem that it was obvious all along, even though it wasn't. If it was, the reader will only be disappointed.

Hmm... Perhaps I really was being a bit too vague. XDI was referring to stories that focus mainly on the mystery; ones that are designed to keep the reader guessing and one that focuses on something unknown that is possible to be revealed (whether or not it actually is revealed). Take Phoenix Wright or 9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors (okay, these are game examples, but they're text-based games and it's all about the story with them). Phoenix Wright is highly "Whodunnit" and 999 is more of a "What's going on?" type of theme. Through collecting evidence and progressing through the plot you slowly piece together the entire story to find the truth (as the stories are designed to keep you guessing while still revealing events little by little). In other words, yes, the sub-genre detective fiction was the type of story I was getting at. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Nuile. ^^Then again, I did just see the new Sherlock Holmes movie. I haven't read any of the books, but I liked this one better than the first. The first was just really really grand in its reveals and everything to me just seemed a little too over-the-top with the whole "magic" devices. Not to say that's a bad thing, it's just not my cup of tea for that kind of story.Interesting question: Where do you draw the line between mystery and suspense (if you think there is a line at all)?As for story reveals, my story has more than one reveal to it. Actually, it's turned pretty complex over time, and I'm trying to figure out how to keep my audience interested. The first important reveal is easily guessed at, and I'm sure my readers have already figured that part out. The question is "when do I reveal that to my characters?" I do have a sort of omniscient character in there, so I was thinking maybe jump to that character's point of view and confirm that point, or focus on my characters trying to figure things out on their own? The main thing is, if I do that and reveal what was suspected, do I jump in with the next big mystery to keep them guessing? (Okay, so I seriously doubt I'll get a lot of help with this issue as it's not easy to see where I'm coming from if what I'm talking about is unknown. XD).

Within the subgenre of detective fiction, there are sub-subgenres which might be more appropriately cleped "types" or, as you put it, "themes." You noted two and, unwittingly, a third.I will begin with the "howdunit" (please note the spelling), which was often the type in Sherlock Holmes novels and also the first of the recent films. I have not seen the second, but based on the fact that it centers on Moriarty, I consider it safe to surmise it is a howdunit as well. In a howdunit the criminal is known from or near the beginning, and it is discovered over the course of the story how she or he committed the crime, how to prove it, and perhaps what the motive was. I personally do not care for this type of mystery because it is usually less dramatic; I find it less enthralling and mysterious when the details are discovered through the "who," rather than the "who" through the details. In this way, Sherlock Holmes (2009) was more akin to a Batman film than, for instance, an Agatha Christie's Poirot film.I would personally call "What's going on here?"--which, for the sake of conformity, I will refer to as a "whatsit"--a mixture between mystery and suspense. It is decidedly more dramatic than howdunits or whodunits because the mystery is less defined than either, though still there is a defined event going on. Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None is a good example of a whatsit blended with a whodunit.The whodunit is typically when somebody is murdered and the sleuth tries to discover the criminal's identity. Occasionally the crime is not a murder but follows the same essential structure. This appeals the most to my curious nature, the attempt to observe all the carefully-laid clues, identify the red herrings, and answer the big question--"Whodunit?"--before the sleuth. I never do; but I never give up trying.Before going on I will address the other points you noted. I don't know much about suspenses, but I would say anything that's not a howdunit, whodunit, or whatsit, a suspense. Any unknowns or unanswered questions with less defenition I would categorize under suspense. Most horrors, for instance, I would call suspense. But to be honest, the genres or types--or whatever they are--of suspense, thriller, and horror are beyond my ken. I am unfamiliar with them and hence know precious little re their relations and differences to mystery.On the subject of plot reveals, I agree that there should be more than one. A good mystery has one big, dramatic "And the killer is . . ." but several smaller reveals earlier on, perhaps casting suspicion on a suspect, clearing a suspect, another victim being taken--or what have you. It's hard to give examples in this case, but another way to have multiple reveals is to have multiple criminals. Say, for instance, the real murderer was hypnotized or drugged or consciously acting under coercion; fine and dandy that once he's caught, but we still need to catch the real mind behind the crime. Hence another opportunity for a reveal.I opine that the reader should not know any more than the sleuth(s). I don't want to solve the mystery before the detective because I was given an unfair advantage, nor do I want to have the solution revealed to me and still have to watch the sleuth solve it. There again we have a howdunit, which I find far less engaging. So it's hard to determine the right course of action because I don't fully comprehend the situation, but I would personally say keep the readers guessing until the fact is revealed to your characters. Perhaps throw something in to cast doubt upon the easily-guessed solution.Now then! I shall further analyze my preferred type, the most predominant of the three: the whodunit. A good whodunit has a solid beginning, a solid ending, and something solid interjacent. Okay, so that goes without saying. But it's a simple way to deconstruct a mystery and examine it.To quote Molly Weston, "Remember, a mystery involves crime! Get the crime in early and let the rest of the book unfold as a result of the crime." She probably could have fit the word crime in there a few more times if she had tried, but I digress. A good mystery should start with a mystery; however, there's naught wrong with a prelude to the crime, either, as long as it's pertinent, interesting, and moderately succinct. Sometimes some of the most important clues can be laid before the crime even takes place. But an unlawful act by a person or persons unknown should be perpetrated ere too many chapters have passed. The crime could even take place before the story starts; it all depends upon when the protagonist becomes involved. Sometimes the detective becomes involved before it is even made clear what the mystery is. But, one way or another, the beginning has to introduce the sleuth and start the mystery rolling, whether it introduces the crime directly or merely introduces the question, "What is the crime?" Here the seeds are being planted, which means clues and red herrings as well. There is not always a crime scene to examine, but when there is, there is usually a scrap of fur or a monogrammed handkerchief that either has everything or nothing at all to do with the mystery.The middle comes next, that's basic logic. This usually means the investigation, pursuing leads, turning up dead ends, questioning suspects. This is probably the most difficult part, spreading clues and red herrings, some sleight of pen to throw light upon an inanity while the key clue slips past undetected. It takes creativity, cunning, and wordsmithery. But some of it's simpler than it appears. One innocent statement will be paid little attention when buried in a conversation. Interest must be maintained throughout. If it's naught but endless talk and all the same questions it'll get boring fast. There have to be discoveries, red herrings, false leads, dead ends, pertinent clues, and little hints from the detective that instigate curiosity and make readers think things are getting somewhere. For example, when Sherlock Holmes said, "I would call your attention to the curious incident of the dog in the night-time," Watson responded, "The dog did nothing in the night-time," and Holmes adumbrated, "That was the curious incident." It makes one curious and gives one something to work with, yet doesn't truly reveal anything. Sometimes this simply frustrates the reader to the point that he or she is more alacritous than ever to finish reading. Any reader who finds this irksome or tedious is no true mystery fan; writers have enough to worry about without trying to please everyone. Naturally the author has to be careful not to lay clues to thickly and to cloud the case sufficiently; in other words, not to make the solution too obvious, lest the reader feel disappointed or cheated. If a reader is capable of solving the mystery before the detective, that reader should feel satisfied and proud.The end comes as the end. As the beginning is typically the crime and the middle typically the investigation, the end is typically the solution. Though exceptions probably exist to this structure, I cannot think of any off the top of my head. The end is the most important part; the climax, the denouement, finis! It must be dramatic, conclusive, explanatory, logical, and satisfying. It has to seem obvious, the reader has to feel as if he or she came close to the solution, without anything of the kind being true. The reader has to say "Of course! I should have known!" not "Really? That makes no sense!" Jaws should drop, brows should not furrow in frustration. And I say it again; it must be dramatic. Three of the best types of endings are: the oration; the attempted murder; and the capture. My personal favorite, the oration, should be clear enough. I've addressed it several times already. It is the "And the Killer is . . ." The attempted murder is when someone close to the sleuth is kidnapped or trapped or what have you by the murderer, usually the murderer harangues the potential victim, and then the detective--who was on top of things the whole time--shows up--likely with the police, perhaps long enough before the police arrive that he must first subdue the villain--and saves the near victim. The capture is the traditional Scooby-Doo climax, when the villain is caught in the act. There are different ways of doing this, some that depend highly upon circumstances.Well, enough babbling from this neophyte. I will conclude by recommending some reading material: How to Write and Sell Your Mystery Novel by Hallie Ephron and Don't Murder Your Mystery by Chris Roerdon are both excellent references if you're serious about writing mysteries. But often seeing it done is as or nearly as helpful as hearing it explained; I highly recommend Dame Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express, And Then There Were None, and Murder at the Vicarage. The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins is high among the best if not the sole best mystery I have ever read. The first few pages of Hallie Ephron's guidebook can be seen on Amazon, including a comprehensive list of exemplary works of detective fiction.As a final note, execution is everything. If every detail is not written properly, it can mean failure. Mystery is by no means an easy genre. It is frought with difficulty, merciless time consumption, and potentially sleepless nights. But it is, in my personal opinion, the best genre.From the desk of Nuile: Lunatic Wordsmith Edited January 1, 2012 by Nuile: Lunatic Wordsmith