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#601 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:17 AM

Grievous is Grievous. He can survive whatever he says he can survive.


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#602 Offline Ultimate_Kardas

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 04:46 AM

I miss awesome Grievous. I understand he had to be nerfed from being able to fight 5 jedi at the same time and beat them all with ease in the original clone wars series, but in this series he's pretty pathetic. I haven't seen all the episodes, but he's barely won any battles. This is Grievous we're talking about. Killer of multiple jedi. He has the lightsabers to prove it! He should not be losing to the likes of Ahsoka.

 

[color=#800000;]~U_K~[/color]


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#603 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 10:55 AM

Apparently George Lucas wanted the character to be smug and not really all that competent, so now that he's in a series where Lucas has a bit more control than he did in the old one, that's exactly what we're getting.

 

See, the problem is that there's a ferret in George Lucas' mind, and it is this ferret that makes most of the decisions about which characters are good ideas. Now, as we all know, ferrets are horrible judges of character, so it shouldn't surprise you that this ferret saw Jar Jar Binks and thought 'yes, that is absolutely what comic relief looks like, I should include this in a movie.' Then, upon seeing highly-competent designated bad guys who actually made some kind of sense, the ferret took its goofy little hands and unscrewed the porthole just behind Lucas' ear, jumped out, and just started screaming at everything that moves, because everyone knows that you should make the viewer have every possible kind of contempt for the designated bad guys, and that's why the Trade Federation and the CIS spent so much money on droids that are completely incompetent.


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#604 Offline rabbit

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 12:13 PM

[font="'Century Gothic';"]I miss awesome Grievous. I understand he had to be nerfed from being able to fight 5 jedi at the same time and beat them all with ease in the original clone wars series, but in this series he's pretty pathetic. I haven't seen all the episodes, but he's barely won any battles. This is Grievous we're talking about. Killer of multiple jedi. He has the lightsabers to prove it! He should not be losing to the likes of Ahsoka.[/font] [color=#800000;]~U_K~[/color]

Agreed. The epicness of the original clone wars series was awesome. Grevious was really a serious bad### character then. I especially love the scene when the Jedi were trying to get on the elevator to escape grievous :lol: . In the new series, it's kinda pathetic. They've shown us that they can have some very epic massacres via lightsaber (Umbara), but they aren't using grevious's full potential for some reason.

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#605 Online Basilisk

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 12:15 PM

I will give this to Disney. When they set out to make a villain, they make them a threat. 

 

Lucas makes them into bad comedy. 


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"Shall this great kingdom, that has survived, whole and entire, the Danish depredations, the Scottish inroads, and the Norman conquest; that has stood the threatened invasion of the Spanish Armada, now fall prostrate before the House of Bourbon? Surely, my Lords, this nation is no longer what it was! Shall a people, that seventeen years ago was the terror of the world, now stoop so low as to tell its ancient inveterate enemy, take all we have, only give us peace? It is impossible! ...My Lords, any state is better than despair. Let us at least make one effort; and if we must fall, let us fall like men!"
 
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#606 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 01:34 PM

Agreed. Our best hope is that, whoever the main villain in the next Star Wars movie is, Disney has the brains to get Jeremy Irons to play the role. Or Alan Rickman. Or Alan Rickman and Jeremy Irons, speaking at exactly the same time. There was actually a study to figure out what the perfect male voice is, and they came up with that as the answer.


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#607 Offline that guy from that show

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 03:56 PM

The problem is that George Lucas allays wants the characters in black and white. There are good guys with no negative traits and there are bad guys with no positive traits. Currently, Grievous comes across as a pathetic thug. That's a far cry form the character that is cunning and had never lost a battle. I wouldn't mind that much if he was cowardly but they sould at least make him a competent military commander. Right now he seems to be present during even the smallest engagements, I'm skeptical that the supreme commander of the droid armies would divert his time to stop help from reaching six younglings and a padawan.

 

What the series needs is to create more competent separatist military leadership. Every time there is a commander during a battle it seems to be Grievous, this is not necessarily because he gets around but because he is the only separatist characters that has any personality. It seems like he's the only general in the entire army and that's quite frankly unrealistic. The Clone Wars sould create some new villains so they don't need to have Grievous travailing back and forth across the galaxy to fight the protagonists.

 

When the move comes out, DIsney sould make someone with charisma. They sould not be over-the-top goofy and they need to make logical and competent strategic choices. I don't mind if they are a Ham, all I care about is that they demand some form of respect.

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#608 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 04:18 PM

Well, a big reason for that problem is that George Lucas does not understand military tactics, so when you see a commander in Star Wars doing something idiotic, it's either plot-mandated stupidity (the bad guys or doing it) or Lucas legitimately thinks it's a good idea (the good guys are doing it), with some overlap depending on the intended effect of the strategy with regard to the plot. I accepted that Lucas does not understand tactics around the time the Trade Federation decided to put on a reenactment of what a Bronze Age army would act like.

 

This is, to be fair, a big problem with Hollywood in general. Armies (and other ground forces) tend to act like Bronze Age or Napoleonic armies, aircraft emulate the First World War, and naval and space-based craft tend to pretend to be in the 18th century.


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#609 Offline Engineer Alexandra Humva

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 06:50 PM

[font="'courier new', courier, monospace;"]The primary reason for that is because real world warfare nowadays just isn't nearly as exciting. Nowadays if you want to kill a fortress, you don't storm it, you send a South Dakota class missile carrier and bombard it with Tomahawks until it's good and dead. It makes for much less dramatic tension.[/font]

 

[font="'courier new', courier, monospace;"]I mean even air planes are moving away from this. Look at the F-22; it's single machine gun has enough ammunition for approximately five seconds of sustained fire. It's all long range nowadays.[/font]

 

[font="'courier new', courier, monospace;"]So Lucas can be somewhat justified in the fact that, while unrealistic, an actual smart tactic would be less the image of a mighty droid army and more the image of the Gungans getting nuked.[/font]


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#610 Online Basilisk

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 06:52 PM

I, for one, would pay to see the Gungans nuked.


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"Shall this great kingdom, that has survived, whole and entire, the Danish depredations, the Scottish inroads, and the Norman conquest; that has stood the threatened invasion of the Spanish Armada, now fall prostrate before the House of Bourbon? Surely, my Lords, this nation is no longer what it was! Shall a people, that seventeen years ago was the terror of the world, now stoop so low as to tell its ancient inveterate enemy, take all we have, only give us peace? It is impossible! ...My Lords, any state is better than despair. Let us at least make one effort; and if we must fall, let us fall like men!"
 
-William Pitt the Elder, before suffering a fatal stroke on the floor of the House of Lords.

#611 Offline that guy from that show

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 07:08 PM

Well the dumb tactics can be forgiven. All this falls under the rule of cool. It's much more fun see gun ships and infantry decimate Onderon terrorists rebels then to watch the C.I.S preform orbital bombardment. That approach actually is used quite a bit in some of the X-Wing novels but expecting to see such efficacy in the clone wars is asking a lot.

 

What irritates me is just that lack of Separatist military leadership. General Griveous is going back and forth across the galaxy commanding the most mundane operations. After checking my atlas, I determined that Hondo's base is in an insignificant part of space that is already surrounded by Separatist worlds. Is sending the top military commander to settle a grudge the best use of his time? He sould be making serious attacks on major planets like Kashyyyk. It's the last year of the war so he might even be preparing for the attack on Coruscant. That was tactical genius and it took bravado. Something like that was probably in the works for awhile.

 

The clone wars need to create leaders aside from tactical droids to command more insignificant attacks. Grievous sould not always be the fall guy. Why not some Phindians, Skakoans, or Zygerrians? They have personalities and have potential to be decent military leaders.


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#612 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 07:22 PM

If you (or a writer, or a director) don't think that realistic tactics can make for an interesting story, then don't use military hardware that calls for realistic tactics.


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#613 Offline that guy from that show

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 07:40 PM

I never said real military tactics are not interesting. I said that 19th century tactics are more fun to watch. Artistically speaking they lend themselves better to more spectacular visuals, cooler vehicles, and a longer span of action. While the battles of Geonosis and Kashyyyk was pointless and you never felt any form of attachment to the characters, you can not deny that they at least looked cool.

 

On the other hand, take the movie Clear and Present Danger staring Harrison Ford. It's a much better film then the prequels and they use realistic military techniques. The government blows up the cartel's compound with an air to ground missal and everything is destroyed in seconds. It's a nice explosion and it's modern warfare at it's most basic but seeing droids, tanks, and gunships flying at each other is a much more entertaining visual.  


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#614 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 08:58 PM

The thing is, though, that the tactics the droids and tanks were using were made obsolete by the invention of things like rapid-fire weaponry and tanks. Napoleonic warfare ceased to be useful with the invention of the repeating rifle, which led to trench warfare, which was then made obsolete by the invention of the tank, which led to the sort of infantry/tank tactics we use now. Armies marching in perfectly square formation makes little sense, and I find it rather hard to believe that armies using more up-to-date tactics would not make for good visuals.


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#615 Offline rabbit

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:00 PM

Really, all of the droids should have been commando droids In the beginning. They show what would really happen if a major corporation paid big money to develop a useful weapon of war.
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#616 Offline that guy from that show

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:52 PM

Since the beginning of time, corporations have cut corners for the sake of profit. The fact that the Trade Federation would form it's army out of the cheapest battle droids available is not surprising in the least. There goal is not political, it's profit.

 

I'll admit that the square formations deployed on Naboo and other engagements is dumb and outdated, (But it looked cool! :popcorn:) I often assumed it was just lazy programing on the part of the droid control ship's computer, the droids that fought on Onderon have less of an excuse. I would say that the vehicles in the star wars universe are equipped in a way that is relativity suitable for the way they fight. The battles of Hoth and Kahyyyk are prime examples. The battle of Onderon would have been much better if they had forgone any ground troops and used gunships, vulture-droids, and STAPs.

 

It would have been more efficient and effective. In a lot of ways, the technique used is based on the environment. In today time a battle would never be fought in the grassy plains like on Naboo. Strategically the area would lend itself well to droid fighters flying low and devastating them well cinematicly using Napoleonic strategy works.

 

The same goes for the attack on Kashyyyk. It is clearly reminiscent of the Normandy landing and as a result Lucas based his visuals and strategy off that. In short, the location seems to dictate what century the battle styles come from. The battle of Hoth and Endor were done well (Minus Ewoks)

 

If we were using modern weapons everything would be warheads and bombers. While it's efficient and smart, the way a battle look out ways any logical approaches  Can you imagine how short the movie would be if the Trade Federation just fired missiles onto the grassy plains. The film makers want to put on a show!

 

My problem is not that they used strategy from the wrong century, that's something I can accept. My problem is they use these outdated strategies poorly. For example, the battle of Naboo was fought like a battle in the Napoleonic war but even Napoleonic strategies involved flanking! At least the TF started with an artillery barrage.


Edited by that guy from that show, Dec 11 2012 - 09:55 PM.

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#617 Offline rabbit

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 10:00 PM

I get why they had cheap droids on naboo, for they just needed a large force with a big intimidation factor. But they had a while to improve designs for the clone wars, but made bulky SBDs first, and even then they continued to use outdated B1 models! It's truly more logical for them to switch the production entirely to B2 droids or commando droids. But, I suppose it's just better looking in a movie. :/EDIT: good point, Benluke.

Edited by Tasty Holiday Beverage, Dec 11 2012 - 10:01 PM.

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#618 Offline BenLuke

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 10:00 PM

Reconciling Star Wars with actual science and common sense is a pointless exercise, really.


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#619 Offline J46 Nui

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 10:47 PM

Would bombardment even work against the shields?


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#620 Online Basilisk

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 11:25 PM

I just found out about this....this travesty.

 

A BUNCH OF YOUNGLINGS AND PIRATES OUTFOXED GRIEVOUS?


Edited by Basilisk, Dec 13 2012 - 10:13 AM.

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"Shall this great kingdom, that has survived, whole and entire, the Danish depredations, the Scottish inroads, and the Norman conquest; that has stood the threatened invasion of the Spanish Armada, now fall prostrate before the House of Bourbon? Surely, my Lords, this nation is no longer what it was! Shall a people, that seventeen years ago was the terror of the world, now stoop so low as to tell its ancient inveterate enemy, take all we have, only give us peace? It is impossible! ...My Lords, any state is better than despair. Let us at least make one effort; and if we must fall, let us fall like men!"
 
-William Pitt the Elder, before suffering a fatal stroke on the floor of the House of Lords.

#621 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 11:32 PM

Ahsoka hasn't been born yet in your rpg.I haven't been following the clone wars so what exactly happened?
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#622 Online Basilisk

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 11:33 PM

Ashoka. A trainee.

 

Went toe to toe with Grievous. And somehow didn't die very very fast. 


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"Shall this great kingdom, that has survived, whole and entire, the Danish depredations, the Scottish inroads, and the Norman conquest; that has stood the threatened invasion of the Spanish Armada, now fall prostrate before the House of Bourbon? Surely, my Lords, this nation is no longer what it was! Shall a people, that seventeen years ago was the terror of the world, now stoop so low as to tell its ancient inveterate enemy, take all we have, only give us peace? It is impossible! ...My Lords, any state is better than despair. Let us at least make one effort; and if we must fall, let us fall like men!"
 
-William Pitt the Elder, before suffering a fatal stroke on the floor of the House of Lords.

#623 Offline rabbit

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 07:01 AM

Would bombardment even work against the shields?

EMP. Then bombardment. Nuff said.

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#624 Offline that guy from that show

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 03:40 PM

Would bombardment even work against the shields?

 

Not the Gungan shields. Those type of generators could only take so much energy into them, eventually they would be overloaded and fail. Against the turbo lasers on those lucrehulk-class battleships the battle of the grassy plains would have ended with a big black creator.

 

If the shields were planetary ones like the ones that were used at Hoth that would be a different story. The Trade Federation would have needed to use ground tactics.

 

Speaking of EMP, does the star wars universe even use such devices? The closest thing I can think of is an Ion cannon which I don't think can pass threw shields.


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#625 Online Ymper Trymon

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 05:22 PM

An EMP-type bomb was used against the CIS at one point. It was fairly stupid, actually, considering that, well, if the CIS legitimately isn't smart enough to build Faraday cages into their droids...

 

Yeah. EMPs are great against unshielded electronics, but military electronics made by any competent military are likely to be shielded.


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#626 Offline J46 Nui

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 04:04 PM

The clones also use EMP grenades.


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#627 Offline Kragghle

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Posted Jan 07 2013 - 01:49 PM

:kaukau: [color=#0000ff;]I just got done watching the original trilogy and these quotes stood out:[/color]

 

[color=#0000ff;]"And these blast points - too accurate for sand people.  Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise."[/color]

 

[color=#0000ff;]I and the people I watched with this laughed so hard for several minutes and quoted that line throughout the rest of the movie whenever there was a fire-fight.[/color]

 

[color=#0000ff;]Then the next quote wasn't really a quote so much as the sheer number of times people said "Operational," usually in conjunction with the word "Fully."  I looked online, and unfortunately I cannot find a video that shows all of these instances all put together.[/color]

 

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#628 Offline BenLuke

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Posted Jan 07 2013 - 02:33 PM

[color=rgb(0,0,255);]"And these blast points - too accurate for sand people.  Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise."[/color]

 

The thing that makes that even funnier is how completely terrible shots the Stormtroopers are.


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#629 Offline Kragghle

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Posted Jan 07 2013 - 02:48 PM

:kaukau: [color=#0000ff;]In the entirety of the original trilogy, they successfully hit a target exactly once.  Leia was shot in the arm, and it was only a flesh wound.  Whereas the Tusken Raiders have demonstrated that they are actually quite effective shots who actually aim before they shoot, as shown in Episode I.[/color]

 

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#630 Offline Engineer Alexandra Humva

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Posted Jan 07 2013 - 03:07 PM

[font="'courier new', courier, monospace;"]Imperial Storm Troopers are extremely precise. I mean, they destroyed a planet in one shot, you gotta give credit where credit is due.[/font]


Edited by Cybernetic Alex Humva, Jan 07 2013 - 03:08 PM.

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#631 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Jan 07 2013 - 03:49 PM

That was the Death Star. Death Star Troopers were aiming that laser.And they're apparantly bad shots because of defective focusing crystals in their blasters and because "I can't see a THING in this helmet!"

Edited by Constructman, Jan 07 2013 - 03:50 PM.

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#632 Offline Axilus Prime

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Posted Jan 08 2013 - 09:30 PM

Star Wars displays the "incompetent villains" trope more than any other work of fiction I've seen. In the movies, the central antagonists had some level of competence, but that was just giving them a moment in the sun before they die in some ridiculous manner.

 

There's something about Star Wars I like, and that's why I occasionally reference it or check on story updates, but...

 

I can't put my finger on it.


Edited by Axilus Prime, Jan 08 2013 - 09:30 PM.

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#633 Offline LostNowFound

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Posted Jan 08 2013 - 09:57 PM

Any of you people play any starwars online? SW  Battlefront?

 

Anyone?


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#634 Offline Ehlekdude

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Posted Jan 10 2013 - 12:55 PM

I often play Republic Commando online (TDM mostly). Battlefront II crashed on me a while back and doesn't work on my computer anymore.


Edited by Ehlekdude, Jan 10 2013 - 12:56 PM.

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#635 Offline LostNowFound

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Posted Jan 11 2013 - 09:57 AM

I often play Republic Commando online (TDM mostly). Battlefront II crashed on me a while back and doesn't work on my computer anymore.

 

Oh that sucks... Ive only got the Battlefront 1 &2. I havnt played online for a while though, as my PS2 is not hooked up. ha.

I seen someone on there maned "Toaguy" if Im not mistaken. Kinda wonderend if they was on here anywhere.


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#636 Offline Ehlekdude

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Posted Jan 11 2013 - 03:07 PM

I often play Republic Commando online (TDM mostly). Battlefront II crashed on me a while back and doesn't work on my computer anymore.

 

Oh that sucks... Ive only got the Battlefront 1 &2. I havnt played online for a while though, as my PS2 is not hooked up. ha.

I seen someone on there maned "Toaguy" if Im not mistaken. Kinda wonderend if they was on here anywhere.

It's not me, that's for sure, I never had that name anywhere. My nick on Republic Commando is "ARC_TROOPER" ,by the way.


Edited by Ehlekdude, Jan 11 2013 - 03:08 PM.

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#637 Offline LostNowFound

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Posted Jan 11 2013 - 06:49 PM

I often play Republic Commando online (TDM mostly). Battlefront II crashed on me a while back and doesn't work on my computer anymore.

 

Oh that sucks... Ive only got the Battlefront 1 &2. I havnt played online for a while though, as my PS2 is not hooked up. ha.

I seen someone on there maned "Toaguy" if Im not mistaken. Kinda wonderend if they was on here anywhere.

It's not me, that's for sure, I never had that name anywhere. My nick on Republic Commando is "ARC_TROOPER" ,by the way.

Is that available for PS2? I recall seeing some SW game I thought looked fun, nut it was for PC only it seemed.


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Doah!

 


#638 Offline HAZMAT

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Posted Jan 11 2013 - 07:50 PM

Republic Commando is only on PC and Xbox


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#639 Offline Electric Turahk

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Posted Jan 12 2013 - 11:15 AM

[color=rgb(212,175,55);]Oh thank the maker the D-Squad filler arc is over!Can't wait to see Maul and Death Watch return now.---In Episode 7 news, apparently Joss Whedon (you know, the guy who wrote The Avengers film) wanted to do Episode 7. He forgot it would conflict with Avengers 2.I wish he could've done both. :(~|ET|~[/color]
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E-T... Phone home.


"He walks among us, but he is not one of us."


#640 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Jan 15 2013 - 07:48 PM

20-episode season. No Clovis arc.  :(


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