The Worst Part Of Bionicle

[The Swimming Beard]

But the worst part was Greg being too busy to finish all of the side-plots that he started. Who is the Great Being in disguise? Who killed Karzahni? We might never know.

I agree. It leaves me in agony not knowing.

[Cederak]

Yeah, several people already brought it up, but the ending to Bionicle just felt a little too rushed and busy.-Ced

[toatitan]

I absolutely hated all the trans-dimensional stuff that happened.

[Vandenreich]

I used to be a Tyranicall, succsesfull villian like you, Until I took a Moon to the head...I just hated that

[Ids5621]

2009 was very meh for me (sets were great however). I hated pretty much all the 2010 events (tahu's return to mata form, much of the story inconsistencies and essentially all the build up till the ending + the ending itself). Disappointing. Also most of the post set saga has been kinda hit and miss for me.I think greg was better at writing the story when he was sticking to bob thompson's original story bible- following his plot and filling in the gaps with his own artistic license along the way.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Ids5621

[ALVIS]

There were several elements of the story that all grate with me, but I wouldn't go so far as to say any of them were THE worst mistake, as I don't look at BIONICLE in such a negative light. However, definitely up (or down?) there for me is the misuse of the name "Makuta" as a species name. I don't mind the other Makuta, I just wish they weren't called, well, Makuta. "Brothers of Makuta" or "Shadow Lords" or some such thing would have been perfectly fine, but calling them "Makuta" ruins The Makuta's original mystique and grandeur.

[WeatherDragon]

THE ALTERNATE UNIVERSES. AGH!I hated them so much...it was uneeded and just plain complex.

[DeLaSouth]

Tahu being one of the Stars.He was a bad leader, why would he be picked to help Mata Nui?Gresh too; only recently was he just a rookie that got owned'd by a couple of Bone Hunters, so how's he gonna take on Teridax's army?

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Tahu being one of the Stars.He was a bad leader, why would he be picked to help Mata Nui?Gresh too; only recently was he just a rookie that got owned'd by a couple of Bone Hunters, so how's he gonna take on Teridax's army?

LEGO pretty much took the sets that made the most money and remade them to mooch some more money of of the same character. Story was not put into account here.

[fishers64]

Tahu being one of the Stars.He was a bad leader, why would he be picked to help Mata Nui?Gresh too; only recently was he just a rookie that got owned'd by a couple of Bone Hunters, so how's he gonna take on Teridax's army?

I think that the point of 2008 story was that Tahu had matured as a leader by listening to Vakama's tales and his own experiences. Same diff with Gresh to a lesser degree. And Gresh wasn't exactly selected in-story for his role; he just goes all trigger-happy towards the Mata Nui robot with the intent of getting in, not exactly the mark of brilliance.As for the sets, SkeletonMan239 above me got it.

[Lewa Olda]

I didn't really like it when the storyline became too complex. I'm one of those traditionalist, 2001-was-the-best-year-for-Bionicle fans, and I loved the simplicity of the plot: find the masks and defeat Makuta (none of the Teridax nonsense). The extra details were the best parts, like memorizing the names and powers of masks. Then there was Metru Nui, the Dark Hunters, Brotherhood of Makuta, the Order of Mata Nui, and all those other random organizations we were forced to pay attention to in order to move the plot forward. I miss following six Toa, and not sixty. Not trying to say that the extra unnecessary details were bad, but I just miss when it was a simpler plot.

[Vote Saxon]

The introduction (and re-introduction) of characters who then didn't do anything, e.g. bringing back Tuyet, Miserix or Light-Teridax. The same about some storylines like Brothers in Arms or Riddle of the Great Beings (even though I realize RotGB's ending was only so short because of the canceling of the series)

[Kopekemaster]

Well, I didn't really like anything with the Glatorian. The Glatorian turning into Toa thing was......kinda weird. Nor did I like the robot duel.

[Tamaku-The Traveler]

The biggest mistake was definitely the termination of the line. As a side note, though, my biggest Bionicle mistake was completely abandoning this site after 2010. Apparently there have been more story developments I've missed out on since then.

[Goldenguy]

I REALLY like Bionicle, so it's kinda hard finding parts I don't like though they exists, the 2005 storyline (except Roodaka, shes an interesting character), the lack of Intense battles in the 2008 storyline (The 8 most powerful Toa against the 8 best makuta warriors, WASTED),The lack of Power of the Toa Nuva (they were supposed to be the most powerful toa ever, but they were defeated by the Piraka, while the Inika could face them AND Brutaka, I know power isn't everythingin a battle, but I don't see them doing many things that far away from what a regular toa could do), of course the ending and whole 2009 storyline( rushed, uniteresting except for maybe Mata Nui, Gresh as a STAR) and the fact that instead of a hellish Island, an underwater battle, and the core of a universe they chose a FRIGGIN DESERT as the setting for a movie....

Edited April 22, 2012 by Goldenguy

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

Several of the minor things were issues that I didn't like not because they were necessarily bad things as much as because they're not my style, and as a result I will avoid mentioning them.But if there's one thing that I thought didn't work, it was when Vakama turned evil. Greg has mentioned that it really didn't fit with Vakama's prior characterization and seemed to just be trying to lump him into the "Toa of Fire are hot headed" stereotype that Tahu had. It just didn't seem like a thing Vakama would do-- someone else should have turned evil. Greg mentioned that Matau would have been his choice....I kind of want to see an Epic on that now.

[Scrash]

Actually, I think Vakama worked as a traitor because he was the leader of the group. He had many pressures from the likes of Onewa and Matau (not to mention his Hordika side to deal with), on top of finding out that he wasn't the "real" Toa Metru of Fire while still trying to live up to Lhikan, so it seemed natural that he'd have a breaking point. From an out-of-story reason, I think his betrayal would still have had more of an impact on the audience as opposed to Matau's (who really didn't get much characterization in the movie, anyway).

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

Actually, I think Vakama worked as a traitor because he was the leader of the group. He had many pressures from the likes of Onewa and Matau (not to mention his Hordika side to deal with), on top of finding out that he wasn't the "real" Toa Metru of Fire while still trying to live up to Lhikan, so it seemed natural that he'd have a breaking point. From an out-of-story reason, I think his betrayal would still have had more of an impact on the audience as opposed to Matau's (who really didn't get much characterization in the movie, anyway).

I suppose, but it wasn't just the pressure that was put on him-- Onewa always put pressure on Vakama as a Toa, as did the others to varying degrees and for different reasons (Nokama, for example, put pressure because she was convinced he was leader material). If Vakama had turned because of the pressure, then yes, I would understand. But right after Legends of Metru Nui (well, in Maze of Shadows, anyway-- he was fine in Voyage of Fear)his characterization took a complete 180 in order to make way for his "turning evil" thing. Vakama went from being an insecure person learning to take responsibility as a leader to being an arrogant and headstrong person long before the Hordika venom touched his system.Maybe what I'm saying is that Vakama turning evil could have been done well, but it wasn't, despite Greg's best efforts. I don't blame him, because he added so much material in the books to help make it smoother and more believable, but it still seemed like an odd turnaround. I blame the makers of Web of Shadows.

[Scrash]

Admittedly, in the movie alone, the betrayal alone was kind of an odd addition, but I'll agree that the execution wasn't as good as it could have been.

[Zestanor]

When Greg pulled that groan-inducingly misogynistic shoulder-shrug to correct an error in a character's gender in that one web serial.

Can we be sure it was an error? I'm interested to know. Even if it was... (I'm weird in this way) I think it was better to do a cop-out than re-edit the post on Bioniclestory.com. I strongly disagree with changing a final product after the fact, even if for seemingly good reasons (Star Wars, Derpy, etc.) But we can't blame Greg; it was the Great Beings who did it! Edited April 25, 2012 by Zestanor

[ALVIS]

Regardless, I think most fans are of the opinion that there shouldn't be a male Toa of Psionics. We were all SO HAPPY to have more than one female in a team, and then we're still stuck with the one-girl limit. Aaaarrrgh!

[BioGio]

When Greg pulled that groan-inducingly misogynistic shoulder-shrug to correct an error in a character's gender in that one web serial.

Can we be sure it was an error? I'm interested to know. Even if it was... (I'm weird in this way) I think it was better to do a cop-out than re-edit the post on Bioniclestory.com. I strongly disagree with changing a final product after the fact, even if for seemingly good reasons (Star Wars, Derpy, etc.) But we can't blame Greg; it was the Great Beings who did it!

Changing a couple of pronouns (he to she, etc.) wouldn't have been that much of an issue of final product impurity, though--ESPECIALLY because the solution was so terribly handled and the whole issue smacked of latent and blatant sexism.~ BioGio

[Zestanor]

All right, I have to agree that changing the pronouns wouldn't have been an issue... but did Greg actually say it was a mistake? He could just as easily said the element had both genders and be done with it. If it was something he actually intended to be in the story, then he obviously didn't think it was offensively sexist. This statement that was made about gender has been said countless times before, and please don't shoot me it isn't wrong to acknowledge that the concept exists in peoples' minds. Finger off the trigger buddy. I'm not old enough nor experienced enough to argue for or against the stereotype, but this idea of 'femininity' does exist in the modern mind, and I don't see any problem with it being debated within Bionicle. Because that's what happened right? The psionics Toa told them why he was male, and the female Toa berated the Great Beings who made the decision. If Greg was making a jab at half the population, that last bit wouldn't have been included, right?Sorry, if my argument is hopeless. I just don't want to think of Greg being related to 'sexism.'

[Ballom Nom Nom]

Sorry, if my argument is hopeless. I just don't want to think of Greg being related to 'sexism.'

Given how the whole incident turned out, it appears rather inescapable. BioGio's last comment pretty much sums it up.~B~

[Alyska]

I don't think Greg is sexist. He may be a little proud, and not want to admit to making a mistake, but the number of good female characters that outright contradict the stereotypes mean that he is certainly trying to work some sense of gender equality into the inherently patriarchal Bionicle universe. Greg is self-aware enough to know that the universe he's writing for is inherently screwed up on the gender front, and I don't blame him for wanting to provide an in-universe explanation for it. As a nice touch the in-universe explanation for Bionicle's gender issues tend to mirror the real life ones- for example, it was mentioned that there are barely any female Glatorians because the Agori perceive females as being inferior and don't want them (the Agori could be seen as a stand-in for Bionicle's target audience, 8-12 year old boys) and that the Great Beings expected female Matoran and Toa to serve as gentle peacemakers (which is EXACTLY how LEGO used female characters in the early years).But I do agree that that chapter was a low point in the Bionicle story. Greg never said it was a mistake, but some of his comments were along the lines of "You guys should just be grateful I didn't decide to retcon the entire Psionics tribe into males!", which implies that it was. I don't think Greg was willing to admit it, though, which was the real problem. Then there was the clumsy cover-up, which, while it contained some interesting ideas, overall wound up making things worse. My main objection to the scene is actually Chiara's " ZAPPA DA LIZARD!" moment, which was quite badly done. There seemed to be absolutely no reason for it other than to wind up an awkward conversation, and establish Chiara as violent and psychotic (Which, allegedly, she isn't.) Given that characters like the Toa Nuva- even Tahu- have been reluctant to hurt Rahi unless it was absolutely necessary, she comes across as being completely psycho. now, Greg's stated that the "lizard" may have actually been a giant, cyborg dinosaur that was a potential threat, but where was this crucial information in the story? Sounds like more cover-ups to me.I think a lot of people misinterpreted the point of the chapter. There seemed to be two camps, one consisting of "Greg said all females are gentle! He's sexist!", and the other consisted of "Yeah? Well, females ARE gentle, what's the problem?" Maybe it was actually too subtle for some people. But then Greg said he wouldn't apologise for the chapter. That, in my opinion, did the most damage. There's refusing to admit that you made a mistake, but I think that if you know your work has hurt or upset people, you should at least demonstrate that you care. But like I said before, I think Greg did care, but he was just a bit too proud to say so...

[Axilus Prime]

The switch to Bara Magna. 2008 was the height of Bionicle (excuse the bad pun), and then they stepped down to a desert gladiator thing...WAY down.And of course the ending. Instead of Mata Nui winning decently, or finding the strength to go on in the way he had learned to fight an equal, or (my favorite) the good guys inside Makuta ATTACK HIM FROM THE INSIDE IN KEY AREAS SO MATA NUI CAN DELIVER A FINISHING BLOW...They pull a deus ex machina. That was anticlimactic as Karz.

[fishers64]

The switch to Bara Magna. 2008 was the height of Bionicle (excuse the bad pun), and then they stepped down to a desert gladiator thing...WAY down.And of course the ending. Instead of Mata Nui winning decently, or finding the strength to go on in the way he had learned to fight an equal, or (my favorite) the good guys inside Makuta ATTACK HIM FROM THE INSIDE IN KEY AREAS SO MATA NUI CAN DELIVER A FINISHING BLOW...They pull a deus ex machina. That was anticlimactic as Karz.

I agree with most of this; I would have liked it more if the Toa had played a greater role in taking down Teridax instead of Mata Nui doing most of the work. On the other hand, the first intro animations to MNOG, the beginning of MoL and the books, etc, were all about Mata Nui versus Makuta. It created a storyline expectation that Makuta and Mata Nui would eventually battle directly. Having the Toa with a more extensive role might have cheapened that whole thing. And I don't think Greg is sexist. He might have made a few mistakes in trying to appeal to us in writing the chapter, but if he wants to write about a male Toa of Psionics and can come up with a reasonable storyline excuse, so what? It's his story, his perogative. Bionicle story does not have to conform to your personal definitions of sexism. When you write a story, you can include whatever definitions of sexism you all want - you have complete control over how many female and male characters you put in a story and what powers they have.Now maybe he could have written this a bit better - included the detail about the GB's mistake first, then introduced the male psionics character in order to make the explanation look like less of a desperate attempt to cover his tracks with a rabid fanbase breathing down his neck.

[iPenguin]

2009And Rapping Piraka

[BioGio]

[1.] All right, I have to agree that changing the pronouns wouldn't have been an issue... but did Greg actually say it was a mistake?[2.] He could just as easily said the element had both genders and be done with it. If it was something he actually intended to be in the story, then he obviously didn't think it was offensively sexist.[3.] I don't see any problem with it being debated within Bionicle. Because that's what happened right? The psionics Toa told them why he was male, and the female Toa berated the Great Beings who made the decision. If Greg was making a jab at half the population, that last bit wouldn't have been included, right?

BANG! Anyway, your post is split up into three parts for ease in response.1. Greg implied heavily that it was a mistake. He had canonized Psionics as all-female and had failed to keep it that way, much as he did not want to really admit to having made the mistake.2. Sadly, only Av-Matoran get to be male and female due to LEGO's rules. Anyway, like I said, the problem was one of latent sexism for the most part. Greg has this assumption that male is a sort of default gender and has a tendency to characterize based on that. A female gets her gender mentioned much more than a male's, strong females tend to be completely murder-crazy, and so on.3. It was never debated, though--or, at least, not well at all. The response "right, females are gentle--DIE LIZARD DIE!" That's not how you go about making a rational argument: by dividing everything into two radical camps (here, nurture vs. KILL EVERYTHING IN SIGHT). And here in BIONICLE the implication is that characters can be almost anything personality-wise--as long as they're male, but females can be either kind (Gali) or murderous (Chiara). It's subtext, sure, but it becomes obvious when Greg tries to broach the topic of gender roles and casts doubt on everything prior.In other words, I'm not claiming Greg is an evil sexist who tries to infuse the story with his misogyny. If anything, he's just a poor author who didn't consider the consequences of the subtext and implications of this chapter.

Bionicle story does not have to conform to your personal definitions of sexism. When you write a story, you can include whatever definitions of sexism you all want - you have complete control over how many female and male characters you put in a story and what powers they have.

Sorry, but no.I'm sorry, but you're just wrong here. Something striving to tackle the issue of gender roles in terms favorable to a modern reader had the obligation to do exactly that. And when Greg's chapter just didn't add up, it's the job of the reader to analyze it and determine whether it is correct and appeals to their modern sensibilities. And this is not a "personal definition" of sexism. When an author represents males and females so as to define them by their gender differences and fails to allow for, as addressed above, any middle ground between two predefined personalities of a specific gender.Don't through out the "let's see YOU write better" comment here again. The purpose of criticism is to explicate errors in writing so that others can improve themselves and their work. Further, your comment displays an intellectual laziness of the highest degree; you can't seem to defend your points and thus fall back on a cheap excuse that throws everything back at me ad infinitum.Also I totally agree with your last paragraph, FTR.~ BioGio

[Zestanor]

Thanks for answering some of my questions, BioGio. I remember skimming some of Greg's blog posts, and I do remember him taking a defensive stance, so yeah, the gender mix up was a mistake. I didn't know that only Av-Matoran were both genders by Lego's rules. And I agree that his female characters were either Gali-type or Helryx-type. However, I'm gonna step down from this little debate, and here's why. In reading your response, I realized that you corrected many of my mistakes about the actual story. Here's the thing: best case scenario, I read the serial once, two years ago. Worst: I never read more than the first paragraph because I was so far behind on serials. The latter is much more likely. So, I just don't have the perspective that many of you who actually read it do have. While this was certainly the most controversial part of Bionicle, thank goodness it happened after the line ended. Wait, the most controversial thing was the Tohunga debacle...

[fishers64]

Bionicle story does not have to conform to your personal definitions of sexism. When you write a story, you can include whatever definitions of sexism you all want - you have complete control over how many female and male characters you put in a story and what powers they have.

Sorry, but no.I'm sorry, but you're just wrong here. Something striving to tackle the issue of gender roles in terms favorable to a modern reader had the obligation to do exactly that. And when Greg's chapter just didn't add up, it's the job of the reader to analyze it and determine whether it is correct and appeals to their modern sensibilities. And this is not a "personal definition" of sexism. When an author represents males and females so as to define them by their gender differences and fails to allow for, as addressed above, any middle ground between two predefined personalities of a specific gender.Don't through out the "let's see YOU write better" comment here again. The purpose of criticism is to explicate errors in writing so that others can improve themselves and their work. Further, your comment displays an intellectual laziness of the highest degree; you can't seem to defend your points and thus fall back on a cheap excuse that throws everything back at me ad infinitum.Also I totally agree with your last paragraph, FTR.~ BioGio

And my point is, Bionicle is not a philosophical treatise on gender roles. It's just a story. It's not "striving to tackle the issue of gender roles".And our job is not to make sure Greg Farshtey has the modern and correct version of gender roles in his story. He should be able to portray genders in his works how he wants. Further, there is no indication whatsoever in the story that human gender roles necessarily have any role here. They're biomechanical beings in an entirely different universe than ours. Now I agree that the whole thing could have been planned out better to avoid this tight-nerved debate.And what's with the comment about gender extremes in girls? There's Hali, Gaaki, Roodaka, Helryx, Kiina - all of those are on the "middle ground" between Gali and Chiara, if you must use those as the opposite ends of the proverbial female personality. The "Hali the Barbarian" instance was a good example of accommodation of the female personality that the author chose to insert. We hadn't had the "ruthless killer" female - unless you count Lariska, who really didn't get a lot of screen time anyway and dealt with Nidihiki - even she isn't completely sadistic, more sly and manipulative. Geez louise, we are getting off topic...*apologizes for rant* Edited April 27, 2012 by fishers64

[electrodude]

All the obscure stuff Greg put in there for no reason. It was like this:Greg: "there's a [insert unused element here] element"Me: " cool. Will we ever see it in action?"Greg:"Maybe..."Me: :(Also I'm not a shipper but the ban on love was completely unnecessary and just a waste of opportunity.

Edited April 27, 2012 by electrodude

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

All the obscure stuff Greg put in there for no reason. It was like this:Greg: "there's a [insert unused element here] element"Me: " cool. Will we ever see it in action?"Greg:"Maybe..."Me: :(Also I'm not a shipper but the ban on love was completely unnecessary and just a waste of opportunity.

Admittedly, that can be frustrating, but it's also better than him saying 'yes' and then not being able to work it in. Besides, it gives fanfiction writers more to work with....

[Siriol]

Personally, I didn't like what the last movie did to Mata Nui. He was supposed to be a more dignified character. The way the movie portrayed him, I can certainly see how the Makuta were able to get one over on him in the first place. And then there's . . . that bug.

[Toa of Nerds]

I didn't like the ending. Now let me be clear, I had no problem with Bionicle ending when it did, I had a problem with how it ended. It was rushed and cheap and left much to be desired. Definitely it was my least favorite part.-don't touch my pocket protector

[Toa Dazura]

You know its funny how this always seem to work out. I'd say the biggest complaint ive seen on this forum is either the alternate universe idea, or the ending between mata nui and makuta... and incidentally i loved both. I felt that the alternate universes really added some mysetery and depth to the universe, and "the kingdom" short story is probably (in my opinion) one of Greg Farshtey's greatest pieces of work. As for the ending, i'll never forget reading the comic excitedly that night i got it, and then running into school to my friend and saying "You have GOT to see this!" I dont know, while i can see the gripes that it was a short lived conflict (it kinda was) I think that last desperate scene of mata nui forcing teridax into the moon just blew me away, and ended it just right for me.Therefore id say that worst moments in Bioicle's life were either the movies (just a given), riddle of the great beings (always seemed very pointless, easily the worst serial) or the toa inika's rubber masks ( i woulda loved 6 more real masks to add to my collection, and green/white balls do not count to me as heads )OH! and... i... kinda did like the little bit of huki/maku romance...lets be clear, im NOT one of those people who gets on a forum and rants about a fictional relationship like *shudder* the avatar: the last air bender kataang/zutara ordeal... but i wouldnt have minded a tiny bit of romance in the story

[bioniclehero01]

Av-Matoran turning into Bohrok just did NOT set right with me at all. In my opinion it just felt underdeveloped and honestly completely unnecessary.Other than that though... "Whoohoo!" ...that still gives me nightmares. P.S. TO THE NUIMOBILE!!

Edited May 12, 2012 by The BIONICLE Hero

[Master Inika]

...The lack of Power of the Toa Nuva (they were supposed to be the most powerful toa ever, but they were defeated by the Piraka, while the Inika could face them AND Brutaka, I know power isn't everythingin a battle, but I don't see them doing many things that far away from what a regular toa could do)...

The main reason the Nuva lost was overconfidence. Plus, with the Piraka's experience as Dark Hunters, abilities received from Spiriah, and general insanity, it's not too hard to believe that they could beat any six Toa.

[The Great Spirit DM]

I think the inconsistencies born of multiple writers, as summarized by Zestanor, is one of the more major things. That and 2010. That last year was cool, but it had potential for SO MUCH MORE. It probably would have achieved its high destiny had it been given enough time and better sets.Though for what the Stars were, they didn't do an atrocious job.The giant robot fight was great, but I wish they could have dreamed up a better ending for it than a chunk of rock taking out one of the greatest villains of all time.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Nujanii: Kanohi Master

[Hexann]

The awkward name changes right after the beginning, and the clumsy attempt to justify it in-universe. I still don't get how the new names are less offensive if they're pronounced the same, anyway.Also, I thought the entire final battle against Makuta was awesome, but unfortunately they weren't able to properly convey the enormous scale of the robots. But it wasn't that big a deal for me.

The Maori did not want it spelled the same although I do agree with you on this.