Krahka Limits

[Voxumo]

alright i was thinking of this. i was thinking about krahka and i have been thinking of maybe making a member of her species a moc who in storyline role was exposed to a virus that the makuta made that caused him to be stuck in a form. remember the reference chirox or mutran i can remember threatened someone else that he could force him to shapeshift into a frost beetle with a broken arm. i figure since he said he was creating it it could exist and work thus forcing a forced shapeshift.now my question is could a krahka take the form of a kaita like a rahkshi kaita, a toa kaita etc heck maybe even a toa nui. now i know the likely hood of one seeing a toa kaita or even a toa nui but it is possible. so since they are a fusion of 3 minds and powers could she/he even copy those powers? so yeah that is my question.

[Ektris]

If Krahka [or any of her species] saw it, she can copy it and merge it with any other she has seen. That's how her powers work. I don't see any reason for her to not be able to copy a Toa Kaita's power so long as the power was not too much of a burdern for her. Combining the powers of the six Toa Metru was part of the reason she was defeated; it was too much for her. A Kaita, though, seems entirely feasible.~|ET|~

[The Lorax]

I'm fairly sure that quote was from Mutran, and he was talking to Vamprah.As for the question, Krahka doesn't necessarily have to see something to become it and copy its powers. At one point, she shapeshifted into a fusion of all 6 toa metru and controlled all their powers, despite such a fusion having never existed. Taking such a form and controlling so many powers put immense strain on krahka, so she didn't maintain it for long, but she did show she could do it.This shows us that she could become and amalgamation of things she had seen, not just their real forms. By this, it could be said that she could shapeshift into a fusion, though I suspect it would be easier in she could just see the fusion without having to make it herself.A related question would be: while controlling 6 different elemental powers, could she have created a toa seal on her own? It is possible that a toa seal needs not only 6 different powers but also 6 different beings, or that the strain would have simply been too great, but how cool would that be?!

[bonesiii]

I'm fairly sure that quote was from Mutran, and he was talking to Vamprah.As for the question, Krahka doesn't necessarily have to see something to become it and copy its powers. At one point, she shapeshifted into a fusion of all 6 toa metru and controlled all their powers, despite such a fusion having never existed. Taking such a form and controlling so many powers put immense strain on krahka, so she didn't maintain it for long, but she did show she could do it.This shows us that she could become and amalgamation of things she had seen, not just their real forms. By this, it could be said that she could shapeshift into a fusion, though I suspect it would be easier in she could just see the fusion without having to make it herself.A related question would be: while controlling 6 different elemental powers, could she have created a toa seal on her own? It is possible that a toa seal needs not only 6 different powers but also 6 different beings, or that the strain would have simply been too great, but how cool would that be?!

I'm foggy on this, but I thought something about Krahka's combo form actually inspired the Toa Metru to try out a protocage in the first place. And BS01 says this on the protocage page:

Beings other than Toa (save Krahka) cannot combine powers of any sort to create a Toa Seal.

So it would seem that yes, Krahka could.OT: I was under the impression that line about the shapeshifting referred only to Makuta shapeshifting power, so wouldn't necessarily affect other shapeshifters, but I could be wrong I suppose, especially if "shapeshifting" is the same power regardless of who has it.

[Voxumo]

I'm fairly sure that quote was from Mutran, and he was talking to Vamprah.As for the question, Krahka doesn't necessarily have to see something to become it and copy its powers. At one point, she shapeshifted into a fusion of all 6 toa metru and controlled all their powers, despite such a fusion having never existed. Taking such a form and controlling so many powers put immense strain on krahka, so she didn't maintain it for long, but she did show she could do it.This shows us that she could become and amalgamation of things she had seen, not just their real forms. By this, it could be said that she could shapeshift into a fusion, though I suspect it would be easier in she could just see the fusion without having to make it herself.A related question would be: while controlling 6 different elemental powers, could she have created a toa seal on her own? It is possible that a toa seal needs not only 6 different powers but also 6 different beings, or that the strain would have simply been too great, but how cool would that be?!

I'm foggy on this, but I thought something about Krahka's combo form actually inspired the Toa Metru to try out a protocage in the first place. And BS01 says this on the protocage page:

Beings other than Toa (save Krahka) cannot combine powers of any sort to create a Toa Seal.

So it would seem that yes, Krahka could.OT: I was under the impression that line about the shapeshifting referred only to Makuta shapeshifting power, so wouldn't necessarily affect other shapeshifters, but I could be wrong I suppose, especially if "shapeshifting" is the same power regardless of who has it.

well i don't think it is the same. makuta cannot copy the powers of forms and they certainly don't gain the memory. but i think she also has to see the form to be able to use it and if she wants to combine it with another. where as makuta can shapeshift into anything they can imagine yeah it would probably help seeing the form but is not necessarily. but gosh could you imagine if krahka copied a makuta's powers now that would be a alot of power at one time. in a way i could see her as one of the most powerful beings in existence. if all follows she could copy the powers of the great beings or even tren krom. dear mata-nui she could be the ultimate power. oh and @the loraxwell it is proven that she can create a toa seal. at least that is what greg says. she can combine forms yes and even though she took the 6 that is not necessarily a toa nui, it is just the combination of the powers and abilities. what i'm asking is more like the actual toa kaita. since a kaita is a combination of 3 wills and minds. and imagine it is already three mind she can also take the memories of those she copies which is what also caused her hesitation which gave the toa metru an edge. so yeah i'm more just asking about the copying of the form.

[bonesiii]

Well, it's just something I thought up on the fly while posting here, but I meant more that the shapeshifting part of it alone would be the same. And the other parts of her ability would actually be other powers that "inform" her shapeshifting. But yeah, they're probably different.That said, I think Teridax would have had to see Dume in order to take his form, for example.Are you asking, can Krakha see three Rahkshi, and imagine -- and thus form -- a Kaita? Or are you asking, if she saw a Rahkshi Kaita could she form it? I think it's yes to the latter, but I doubt she would imagine one accurately.

[The Lorax]

. if all follows she could copy the powers of the great beings or even tren krom. dear mata-nui she could be the ultimate power.oh and @the loraxwell it is proven that she can create a toa seal. at least that is what greg says. she can combine forms yes and even though she took the 6 that is not necessarily a toa nui, it is just the combination of the powers and abilities. what i'm asking is more like the actual toa kaita. since a kaita is a combination of 3 wills and minds. and imagine it is already three mind she can also take the memories of those she copies which is what also caused her hesitation which gave the toa metru an edge. so yeah i'm more just asking about the copying of the form.

Forget Tren Krom - she has moved to Spherus Magna and seen the Great Spirit Robots! Granted, they're both dead, but she could shapeshift into one of them and get all their powers. Not only that, but doing so would create a universe identical to the original. That way, all the Matoran and others could have their universe back!... I'm going to stop before I get too caried away.But yeah, Krahka could be the ultimate power in the right circumstances. Show her a Matoran or an ussal crab and not much happens. But as her opponent gets stronger, so does she. The only limiting factor is how much power she could handle at once.About the "three wills and minds" bit, I think she would need to see a kaita to dupe that, but a Kaita also has a will and mind of its own, independant of the beings forming it. I guess she could replace that mind with her own if she was trying to copy a fusion. Edited April 12, 2012 by The Lorax

[Voxumo]

Well, it's just something I thought up on the fly while posting here, but I meant more that the shapeshifting part of it alone would be the same. And the other parts of her ability would actually be other powers that "inform" her shapeshifting. But yeah, they're probably different.That said, I think Teridax would have had to see Dume in order to take his form, for example.Are you asking, can Krakha see three Rahkshi, and imagine -- and thus form -- a Kaita? Or are you asking, if she saw a Rahkshi Kaita could she form it? I think it's yes to the latter, but I doubt she would imagine one accurately.

but yes i am meaning the latter. if she saw one could she take that form and powers

[Axilus Prime]

. if all follows she could copy the powers of the great beings or even tren krom. dear mata-nui she could be the ultimate power.oh and @the loraxwell it is proven that she can create a toa seal. at least that is what greg says. she can combine forms yes and even though she took the 6 that is not necessarily a toa nui, it is just the combination of the powers and abilities. what i'm asking is more like the actual toa kaita. since a kaita is a combination of 3 wills and minds. and imagine it is already three mind she can also take the memories of those she copies which is what also caused her hesitation which gave the toa metru an edge. so yeah i'm more just asking about the copying of the form.

Forget Tren Krom - she has moved to Spherus Magna and seen the Great Spirit Robots! Granted, they're both dead, but she could shapeshift into one of them and get all their powers. Not only that, but doing so would create a universe identical to the original. That way, all the Matoran and others could have their universe back!... I'm going to stop before I get too caried away.But yeah, Krahka could be the ultimate power in the right circumstances. Show her a Matoran or an ussal crab and not much happens. But as her opponent gets stronger, so does she. The only limiting factor is how much power she could handle at once.About the "three wills and minds" bit, I think she would need to see a kaita to dupe that, but a Kaita also has a will and mind of its own, independant of the beings forming it. I guess she could replace that mind with her own if she was trying to copy a fusion.

She wouldn't be able to handle THAT power...but it would be quite interesting. I don't even think she could match a Makuta, though.

[Toa of Italy]

Now, it is proven that Krahka needs to see a being to take his or her form. She says it herself in The Darkness Below.As for the Kaita issue, it is shown in the same book that she is able to combine forms into something she actually hasn't seen. So I agree with bonesiii that she could create a combination of more beings, but if those beings formed a Kaita it wouldn't necessarily have the same shape.As for her becoming a Great Spirit Robot, I'm afraid it's impossible. From a Greg answer:

1. Is there a limit to Krakha's shapeshifting ability? If not, it seems that during the battle against the Visorak, she could have transformed into a duplicate of Tahtorak and helped him defeat the Zivon.1) Yes, there is a limit. While she can turn into large creatures, we don't know what her natural size is, so those creatures might not be larger than she is normally. A Tahtorak would be larger, and to turn into something bigger than you, mass has to come from somewhere. Makuta do it by absorbing the mass of other living beings, Krahka can't do that.

Two more interesting pieces of info on Krahka. Again from Greg:

1. Would Krahka be able to transform into a Glatorian or Agori form?1) Yes and no. She could make herself look like them, if she saw one, but she would not be able to change herself to be mostly organic as they are. She would be a bio-mechanical version of one, so not terribly convincing to anyone who really knew what a Glatorian or Agori was like.

And the second is that she can turn herself into inanimate objects as well. She proved it when, in The Darkness Below, she transformed into a Rahkshi armor with no Kraata inside, which is technically inanimate.

[fishers64]

Which begs the question of whether or not Krahka, if she had a Toa form, could merge with two other Toa to create a Toa Kaita?

[Makuta Matata]

So, if Krahka shapeshifts into a Makuta, will she gain all of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers?

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Which begs the question of whether or not Krahka, if she had a Toa form, could merge with two other Toa to create a Toa Kaita?

I don't think she would able to do that. I mean, she would have the form of a Toa and the elemental powers of one, but she still would be considered a Rahi. So I highly doubt she would be able to form a Toa Kaita with two Toa. (And why would she even want to merge with them to begin with? )

So, if Krahka shapeshifts into a Makuta, will she gain all of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers?

Interesting question. I would assume that she could, because Makuta can only use one of their powers at a time. Which would mean that Krahka would only be able to use one Rahkshi power at a time.

[Visaru]

So, if Krahka shapeshifts into a Makuta, will she gain all of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers?

Interesting question. I would assume that she could, because Makuta can only use one of their powers at a time. Which would mean that Krahka would only be able to use one Rahkshi power at a time.

Aha! But she was able to use multiple toa powers at the same time, so could she do the same with makuta powers? Is the limit to one power at a time only to Makuta, or to any being possessing their powers? It's an interesting question.Another: When Krahka shrinks, where does her excess mass go? If it just compresses, that would make for a very heavy rock.Also, this quote would be helpful in earlier conversation:

Reacting to their maneuvers, the Krahka pointed her six arms all in one direction and brought the powers bursts near each other (...)The Toa narrowly dodged the power beam. Only Vakama turned to see where it struck a new substance had formed, one that looked like solid protodermis. How could that be? he wondered. Is that what would result if we combined our powers? Maybe-"Vakama, watch out!" Nokama shouted. (page 128)

So it seems Krahka did give the Toa the idea. Edited April 12, 2012 by Visaru

[Makuta Matata]

So, if Krahka shapeshifts into a Makuta, will she gain all of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers?

Interesting question. I would assume that she could, because Makuta can only use one of their powers at a time. Which would mean that Krahka would only be able to use one Rahkshi power at a time.

Aha! But she was able to use multiple toa powers at the same time, so could she do the same with makuta powers? Is the limit to one power at a time only to Makuta, or to any being possessing their powers? It's an interesting question.Another: When Krahka shrinks, where does her excess mass go? If it just compresses, that would make for a very heavy rock.Also, this quote would be helpful in earlier conversation:

Reacting to their maneuvers, the Krahka pointed her six arms all in one direction and brought the powers bursts near each other (...)The Toa narrowly dodged the power beam. Only Vakama turned to see where it struck a new substance had formed, one that looked like solid protodermis. How could that be? he wondered. Is that what would result if we combined our powers? Maybe-"Vakama, watch out!" Nokama shouted. (page 128)

So it seems Krahka did give the Toa the idea.

So basically, if Krahka can do all of this, she is probably the most powerful being alive.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

So, if Krahka shapeshifts into a Makuta, will she gain all of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers?

Interesting question. I would assume that she could, because Makuta can only use one of their powers at a time. Which would mean that Krahka would only be able to use one Rahkshi power at a time.

Aha! But she was able to use multiple toa powers at the same time, so could she do the same with makuta powers? Is the limit to one power at a time only to Makuta, or to any being possessing their powers? It's an interesting question.Another: When Krahka shrinks, where does her excess mass go? If it just compresses, that would make for a very heavy rock.

I forgot about that. But then again, she has never taken the form of a Makuta in the storyline, so I guess we'll never know for sure. I'd guess that she could use multiple Rahkshi powers at once, as long as it didn't overwhem her to do so.As for your other question, I remember reading somewhere that when Makuta shape-shifted into a smaller form, the mass that was lost somehow went into another dimension. I know that sounds rediculous and it probably isn't true, but I do vaguely remembering reading something about it somewhere.

[Voxumo]

So, if Krahka shapeshifts into a Makuta, will she gain all of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers?

Interesting question. I would assume that she could, because Makuta can only use one of their powers at a time. Which would mean that Krahka would only be able to use one Rahkshi power at a time.

Aha! But she was able to use multiple toa powers at the same time, so could she do the same with makuta powers? Is the limit to one power at a time only to Makuta, or to any being possessing their powers? It's an interesting question.Another: When Krahka shrinks, where does her excess mass go? If it just compresses, that would make for a very heavy rock.

I forgot about that. But then again, she has never taken the form of a Makuta in the storyline, so I guess we'll never know for sure. I'd guess that she could use multiple Rahkshi powers at once, as long as it didn't overwhem her to do so.As for your other question, I remember reading somewhere that when Makuta shape-shifted into a smaller form, the mass that was lost somehow went into another dimension. I know that sounds rediculous and it probably isn't true, but I do vaguely remembering reading something about it somewhere.

it is not that ridiculous i mean look at the toa how they can stick their weapons on their back and they just disappear.

[Simulacrum]

So basically, if Krahka can do all of this, she is probably the most powerful being alive.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that. A being such as that one Order of Mata-Nui agent, who's name I forgotten, that is completely invisible, couldn't be copied by Krahka, and she would probably be at a loss as of how to deal with him. That's just a being I've pulled of the top of my head that could defeat her.While Krahka is powerful, I doubt she is the most powerful.Back on Topic, I would say that Krahka has limits. Isn't the form we see of her in that Rahi Guide from 2005/6 her offical form? And to quote Greg, "A Tahtorak would be larger, and to turn into something bigger than you, mass has to come from somewhere. Makuta do it by absorbing the mass of other living beings, Krahka can't do that." So yes, there would be a limit for size, though I'm not sure about power.

[bonesiii]

Another: When Krahka shrinks, where does her excess mass go? If it just compresses, that would make for a very heavy rock.

As for your other question, I remember reading somewhere that when Makuta shape-shifted into a smaller form, the mass that was lost somehow went into another dimension. I know that sounds rediculous and it probably isn't true, but I do vaguely remembering reading something about it somewhere.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all -- hammerspace! Another simple possibility, though, is both compression as well as control over gravity to make it act like it weighed less. There's also always storing some of your mass as energy; I'd lean towards that for Krahka personally, not sure why.Are you sure about the Makuta thing, though? Canonically? Because I was under the impression they could only be one size at a time. Makuta formed Dume after being "defeated" in the past and losing mass, and turned to his later mass by absorbing Nidhiki and Krekka. In MNOG, we saw him "take a smaller form" again, but by storing some of his mass in the whirling hovering cloud of pieces behind him, and simply hoping the Toa wouldn't realize that was part of him. If he could use hammerspace you'd think he would have then. (Not necessarily though; and I doubt the programmers would have wanted to show it that way as it would get technobabbley, which was definately not the style they were going for. Still.)Edit:

look at the toa how they can stick their weapons on their back and they just disappear.

That is confirmed non-canon. I asked Greg specifically if they could use some kind of hammerspace (or "energy packs" which is something I use in my fanfics that stores mass as energy), and he turned it down, calling that effect in the movie artistic license. The animators didn't want to bother their computers rendering tools when the tools weren't important to the scene so they just took them out at those times.

So basically, if Krahka can do all of this, she is probably the most powerful being alive.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that. A being such as that one Order of Mata-Nui agent, who's name I forgotten, that is completely invisible, couldn't be copied by Krahka, and she would probably be at a loss as of how to deal with him. That's just a being I've pulled of the top of my head that could defeat her.While Krahka is powerful, I doubt she is the most powerful.

I don't think your response argues against what he said. She would still be far more powerful in the sense of being able to do more at once, use any power, take nearly any form, etc. She would simply have that as an Achilles heel. Compare Achilles to any ordinary person -- who is more powerful? And yet, any ordinary person could kill him if they struck the heel. No matter how powerful you are there's always a weakness; that doesn't make the person who can take advantage of that weakness necessarily stronger than you. Edited April 13, 2012 by bonesiii

[Voxumo]

Another: When Krahka shrinks, where does her excess mass go? If it just compresses, that would make for a very heavy rock.

As for your other question, I remember reading somewhere that when Makuta shape-shifted into a smaller form, the mass that was lost somehow went into another dimension. I know that sounds rediculous and it probably isn't true, but I do vaguely remembering reading something about it somewhere.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all -- hammerspace! Another simple possibility, though, is both compression as well as control over gravity to make it act like it weighed less. There's also always storing some of your mass as energy; I'd lean towards that for Krahka personally, not sure why.Are you sure about the Makuta thing, though? Canonically? Because I was under the impression they could only be one size at a time. Makuta formed Dume after being "defeated" in the past and losing mass, and turned to his later mass by absorbing Nidhiki and Krekka. In MNOG, we saw him "take a smaller form" again, but by storing some of his mass in the whirling hovering cloud of pieces behind him, and simply hoping the Toa wouldn't realize that was part of him. If he could use hammerspace you'd think he would have then. (Not necessarily though; and I doubt the programmers would have wanted to show it that way as it would get technobabbley, which was definately not the style they were going for. Still.)Edit:

look at the toa how they can stick their weapons on their back and they just disappear.

That is confirmed non-canon. I asked Greg specifically if they could use some kind of hammerspace (or "energy packs" which is something I use in my fanfics that stores mass as energy), and he turned it down, calling that effect in the movie artistic license. The animators didn't want to bother their computers rendering tools when the tools weren't important to the scene so they just took them out at those times.

So basically, if Krahka can do all of this, she is probably the most powerful being alive.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that. A being such as that one Order of Mata-Nui agent, who's name I forgotten, that is completely invisible, couldn't be copied by Krahka, and she would probably be at a loss as of how to deal with him. That's just a being I've pulled of the top of my head that could defeat her.While Krahka is powerful, I doubt she is the most powerful.

I don't think your response argues against what he said. She would still be far more powerful in the sense of being able to do more at once, use any power, take nearly any form, etc. She would simply have that as an Achilles heel. Compare Achilles to any ordinary person -- who is more powerful? And yet, any ordinary person could kill him if they struck the heel. No matter how powerful you are there's always a weakness; that doesn't make the person who can take advantage of that weakness necessarily stronger than you.

I must state this. it is something after reading some of the responses on here i have this stuck in my head.if krahka did copy the powers of a makuta since it is possible for her to even though she is on spherus magna since miserex and the alternate teridax is on sphereus magna she could copy their form if she saw them. but the question i have is if she copied a makuta would their shapeshifting powers collide with hers and cause issues. kind of like how light and shadow can not be used in the same toa seal because of how the makuta's shape shifting power has different qualities and traits than hers does. and also would she also copy there shadow hand ability which could allow her in a round about way allow her to gather more mass and thus gain the ability for larger forms.and if i remember correcty when she does copy forms if that form is wearing a powered kanohi she does not gain that mask power too. i don't know if this is correct so if somebody knows for sure it would be nice to know.

So basically, if Krahka can do all of this, she is probably the most powerful being alive.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that. A being such as that one Order of Mata-Nui agent, who's name I forgotten, that is completely invisible, couldn't be copied by Krahka, and she would probably be at a loss as of how to deal with him. That's just a being I've pulled of the top of my head that could defeat her.While Krahka is powerful, I doubt she is the most powerful.Back on Topic, I would say that Krahka has limits. Isn't the form we see of her in that Rahi Guide from 2005/6 her offical form? And to quote Greg, "A Tahtorak would be larger, and to turn into something bigger than you, mass has to come from somewhere. Makuta do it by absorbing the mass of other living beings, Krahka can't do that." So yes, there would be a limit for size, though I'm not sure about power.

that order member you mentioned is named jerbrazand no the form in the rahi guide is not her official form but the one she took when she combined the toa metru forms and powers.also this brings up another question that i will create a topic for.

[bonesiii]

if she copied a makuta would their shapeshifting powers collide with hers and cause issues. kind of like how light and shadow can not be used in the same toa seal because of how the makuta's shape shifting power has different qualities and traits than hers does. and also would she also copy there shadow hand ability which could allow her in a round about way allow her to gather more mass and thus gain the ability for larger forms.

To the first, we have no way to know. I personally doubt it, though it could make for a cool twist -- like as soon as she tried she could become stuck in Makuta form forever. :PTo the second, I presume she would copy that power, yes, as it's inherent to them.

[fishers64]

So theoretically Krahka could shapeshift into a Makuta form, copy the Shadow hand power, absorb a bunch of other things, and then shift into a larger form? That is, assuming she has enough mass to assume a Makuta form in the first place. But the Makuta don't have a form, they shift, but they are made of Antidermis, which doesn't have much mass. Since Krahka assumed a gaseous form in the book Challenge of the Hordika, which would mean that she could shift into antidermis form, but then that would mean she would have to have armour to occupy. I'm trying to remember if the Shadow Hand power is only available when the Makuta have their armour...which is not exactly the fastest produced commodity on SM. :)And which insane Rahi creator thought a shapeshifting, power-copying beast was a good idea? That's one bad accident or decision, IMO.

[Makuta Matata]

So basically, if Krahka can do all of this, she is probably the most powerful being alive.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that. A being such as that one Order of Mata-Nui agent, who's name I forgotten, that is completely invisible, couldn't be copied by Krahka, and she would probably be at a loss as of how to deal with him. That's just a being I've pulled of the top of my head that could defeat her. While Krahka is powerful, I doubt she is the most powerful. Back on Topic, I would say that Krahka has limits. Isn't the form we see of her in that Rahi Guide from 2005/6 her offical form? And to quote Greg, "A Tahtorak would be larger, and to turn into something bigger than you, mass has to come from somewhere. Makuta do it by absorbing the mass of other living beings, Krahka can't do that." So yes, there would be a limit for size, though I'm not sure about power.

She wouldn't need that because she can just use Vakama's mask power.

[Toa Zaz]

She had an all six Toa combo going for her for a second there, so I don't think three Toa would be too difficult to handle...