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Major Confusions On Elements?


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#161 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 17 2012 - 04:49 PM

1. How would Toa of Stone perform a nova blast?2. If Toa of Water can control water vapor, then why can't they control ice?3. What can a Toa of Magetism do that a Toa of Iron can't?

1. I'm not completely sure, but I think it would be something like a colossal avalanche of stone, except exploding outward.2. I guess because ice is for Toa of Ice to control. But Toa of Water controlling water vapor doesn't make much sense to me. Are you sure they can control it, and not just absorb it?3. Well, Toa of Magnetism control magnetism, Toa of Iron control metal. As Anti Nui said, Toa of Magnetism can fly by maintaining a repelling magnetic field below them, like a Mag-Lev train. While their control over metal is less direct than a Toa of Iron's, Toa of Magnetism can also use their element to manipulate non-metallic magnetic things, for example plasma and the magnetized water in the Metru Nui chutes.

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#162 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 17 2012 - 06:11 PM

I always wonder if the "gravity" in BIONICLE is referring to the attraction between objects or simply just the weight of an object. :/

It refers to the gravity energy itself. Which is normally emitted by all matter, and pulls other matter towards the direction the energy hits the object from. To make an object seem to weigh more they would have to either focus existing gravity energy on it or make more under it.

I'd say they could, considering how quickly they can melt stone, and how relatively little energy is required to vaporize water.

Yeah, possibly, but Greg only confirmed gas so I think the safest bet would be a no.

1. How would Toa of Stone perform a nova blast?2. If Toa of Water can control water vapor, then why can't they control ice?3. What can a Toa of Magetism do that a Toa of Iron can't?

1) I think it's either what The Iron Toa said, or unmoving rock would encase everything. I think the former would be cooler though.2) Something occured to me the other day about the original six elements that I think might help here. The classical four elements could be seen as a representation of the four major states of matter, right? Earth solid, Water liquid, Air gas, and Fire plasma. But what I think Bionicle basically did is to see a distinction between the solids that people will naturally run into a lot. And there are indeed some distinctions.So the Bionicle elements are Stone full-solid, Earth solid able to flow, Ice solid only in cold temperatures (but still a common and non-ignorable part of many environments), Water liquid, Air gas, Fire plasma.In this case, water vapor is rarely as much of an important material to deal with on a daily basis right near you (like the need to shovel snow or the risk of slipping on ice). It's mostly far above in the clouds. Thus Ice, by this reasoning, makes sense to have its own element. This might even be the reasoning the GBs are imagined to have used.3) The others' answers to that should suffice. :)

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#163 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Aug 17 2012 - 09:15 PM

So was it ever confirmed whether or not there are Skakdi of other elements? I think it would be pretty cool to see a Skakdi of Gravity or Magnetism walking around.Though I guess it would be kind of a problem considering that they don't seem to adhere to secondary colors, so you wouldn't be able to tell a Water Skakdi from a Lightning Skakdi, or a Plant Life Skakdi from an Air Skakdi.
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#164 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 12:34 AM

So was it ever confirmed whether or not there are Skakdi of other elements? I think it would be pretty cool to see a Skakdi of Gravity or Magnetism walking around.Though I guess it would be kind of a problem considering that they don't seem to adhere to secondary colors, so you wouldn't be able to tell a Water Skakdi from a Lightning Skakdi, or a Plant Life Skakdi from an Air Skakdi.

I can't find anything either way, but it would make a good deal of sense for there to be Skakdi of other elements, seeing as there is a considerable number of them. Why would they all be of the orginal six, especially in an adaptable creation that was supposed to survive for 100,000 years? Makes no sense.

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#165 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 03:18 AM

I think the secondary colors would be noticeable, just look at the colors of the Piraka. Some of them don't stand out so much, like Hakann's lighter red, but look at Reidak's gray and Thok's blue.As for plasma water, I did a little research and couldn't get a definite answer, but I think water does require a higher temperature than air to be turned to plasma. But since the temperatures required are so high, it seems inefficient to turn matter into plasma by nothing but thermal energy. I'd expect Toa of Plasma would have some other ability to facilitate this change in state, not control over electricity as Toa of Lightning have, but some way of weakening the bonds between electrons and nuclei.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Aug 18 2012 - 03:22 AM.

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#166 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 03:07 PM

Why would a Toa of Plasma need to turn water into plasma when they can just produce it using EE? Faster and less messy.
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#167 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 03:57 PM

Good question. Actually, that brings me to another question. Manipulating existing matter takes less EE than creating new matter, right? Does that include heating and cooling it? I mean, would it take more EE for a Toa of Plasma to turn the air to plasma than to create new plasma, or for a Toa of Ice to freeze water or create ice?
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#168 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 04:08 PM

I think the secondary colors would be noticeable, just look at the colors of the Piraka. Some of them don't stand out so much, like Hakann's lighter red, but look at Reidak's gray and Thok's blue.As for plasma water, I did a little research and couldn't get a definite answer, but I think water does require a higher temperature than air to be turned to plasma. But since the temperatures required are so high, it seems inefficient to turn matter into plasma by nothing but thermal energy. I'd expect Toa of Plasma would have some other ability to facilitate this change in state, not control over electricity as Toa of Lightning have, but some way of weakening the bonds between electrons and nuclei.

Well, there's no canon evidence of such a thing. The plasma state is all about heat, so heat is simply what it needs. :) Keep in mind also we're normally talking about protowater, in the MU, which is much different from the air anyways, and shouldn't be confused for the normal molecular water of the Aqua Magna ocean or the rest of Spherus Magna.

Good question. Actually, that brings me to another question. Manipulating existing matter takes less EE than creating new matter, right? Does that include heating and cooling it? I mean, would it take more EE for a Toa of Plasma to turn the air to plasma than to create new plasma, or for a Toa of Ice to freeze water or create ice?

Yes to both. But to project the plasma across a distance I think it would be easier to make new gas plus the superheat. Same for a Toa of Ice shooting a beam of ice as Kopaka has sometimes done.

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#169 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 06:05 PM

I don't know how I forgot that water in the Matoran Universe isn't H2O. :dunce:We know that MU air is not protodermis, it's Spherus Magna air. But do we know if Spherus Magna water and air are the same as on Earth?
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#170 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Aug 19 2012 - 12:12 PM

I don't know how I forgot that water in the Matoran Universe isn't H2O. :dunce:We know that MU air is not protodermis, it's Spherus Magna air. But do we know if Spherus Magna water and air are the same as on Earth?

Pretty sure Greg said that the water was H20, but I don't know if he gave a definite answer on the air.

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#171 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 19 2012 - 01:28 PM

We know that all of SM uses normal atoms and molecules. We don't necessarily know if the air is exactly the same mixture as on Earth, but I'd say it's very likely to be close.And yes, the SM water is same as ours.
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#172 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Aug 19 2012 - 01:50 PM

But if a Toa of Water can create and control water in a gaseous state, as well as draw liquid water from water vapor, then why can't they control water in a solid state? Within Bionicle's established rules and all that, it makes no sense.

Edited by Toa Zaz, Aug 19 2012 - 01:51 PM.

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#173 Offline Katuko

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Posted Aug 19 2012 - 02:19 PM

Likely the cold and/or crystallization of the water interferes with the Toa's ability to affect it. If you're made specifically to control liquids, then throwing a solid into the mix would mess up your system, I bet.I once asked Greg if it wouldn't make more sense - instead of every element having it specific energy and thus opening up the can of science worms that is "cold energy", "shadow energy", "plant energy", etc... - to say that each Toa stored Elemental Energy as the same proto-energy, and that their body/systems were simply made to convert to and from certain pieces of nature. So a Toa of Fire would be wired to turn its energy into heat and flame, Toa of Water the liquid form of H2O or its equivalent, and Toa of Ice the same deal but chilled. It would also explain why the Mask of Elemental Energy (which is canon though it's not been used in official stories) can refill any type of Toa, and why the Nui Stone's energies also can be used to boost any element. They would be using the same type of "battery", but for different things.He nixed it though, mostly because he had already given the answer of multiple energy types and he was not keen on a physics debate when he was just out to write a story with fancy powers. :P
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#174 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 19 2012 - 04:27 PM

But if a Toa of Water can create and control water in a gaseous state, as well as draw liquid water from water vapor, then why can't they control water in a solid state? Within Bionicle's established rules and all that, it makes no sense.

Well, Bionicle's rules here are basically, however the Great Beings programmed the elemental powers is how they are (or really however the story team decided to separate them). They apparently felt that there was a need in the MU to have ice/snow-based locations which are practically a lot different from room-temperature water locations, so they separated it into two elements. Since it's fiction, it's really arbitrary anyways; they could have chosen a purely substance-based strategy, but they chose an environment-based strategy, which does actually make more story sense in "everyday" practical terms.Also, Toa of Ice get control over cold. Toa of Water do not get control over heat. Any control they have of water vapor is not over its heat (unlike a Toa of Fire or Plasma). So it's probably a very weak control. Mainly they control room-temperature liquid water.

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#175 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 19 2012 - 07:18 PM

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no', but can Toa of Plasma absorb heat like Toa of Fire can?
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#176 Offline Katuko

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Posted Aug 20 2012 - 12:48 AM

Heat is not listed a sub-power of Plasma, but considering that their application of their element is moving massive amounts of heat around, I'd assume they can control it. Maybe not as fine-tuned as a Toa of Fire (they wouldn't be able to heat your coffee to the right temperature, but they would be able to make it very hot very quickly).

Edited by Katuko, Aug 20 2012 - 12:48 AM.

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#177 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 20 2012 - 10:45 PM

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no', but can Toa of Plasma absorb heat like Toa of Fire can?

They could absorb plasma out of the air, cooling it down. But not heat directly, no.

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#178 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 20 2012 - 11:52 PM

But they couldn't absorb plasma out of the air if there isn't any plasma in the air, unlike a Toa of Fire's heat absorption.Edit: Uh, what I meant is, there's always some heat in the air for a Toa of Fire to absorb.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Aug 20 2012 - 11:54 PM.

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#179 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Aug 21 2012 - 04:55 AM

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no', but can Toa of Plasma absorb heat like Toa of Fire can?

The general consensus on plasma in regards to heat control was that they could do it, just not as precisely as a Ta-toa. I imagine heat absorption would follow the same lines.

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#180 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 08:37 PM

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no', but can Toa of Plasma absorb heat like Toa of Fire can?

The general consensus on plasma in regards to heat control was that they could do it, just not as precisely as a Ta-toa. I imagine heat absorption would follow the same lines.

So they could heat something up to high levels, or plunge things into extreme cold? Although I don't think the latter is possible, because of how hot plasma is, and it doesn't cool things down.

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#181 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 09:10 PM

Yeah, I don't think they would have greater heat absorption ability than a Toa of Fire. On a related note, however, I expect Toa of Plasma would be better at providing illumination (not so much as a Toa of Light, of course).Also, I noticed we're talking less about 'major confusions' and more about theories and such. Why isn't there an Official Elements Topic like there used to be for stuff like this?

Edited by The Iron Toa, Aug 22 2012 - 09:23 PM.

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#182 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 09:30 PM

Yeah, I don't think they would have greater heat absorption ability than a Toa of Fire. On a related note, however, I expect Toa of Plasma would be better at providing illumination (not so much as a Toa of Light, of course).

Isn't plasma only luminescent when charged when charged with electricity? *googles* Oh, wait, it's naturally electric. But yes, would expect Toa of Plasma to provide illumination. On a related note, would a bunch of Toa of Plasma be able to control a star (possibly to make it crash into a planet and obliterate an entire civilization?) :evilgrin: Or would you need Gravity Toa for that, as well?

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#183 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 09:53 PM

Well, stars are made of plasma. But they're also incredibly, enormously, vastly big. And Toa can only control so much of their own element. So you'd probably need thousands or millions of Toa of Plasma to control all of a star's matter. And they'd also probably be melted or incinerated before they could come close enough to extend their elemental reach.
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#184 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 11:27 PM

Yeah, I don't think they would have greater heat absorption ability than a Toa of Fire. On a related note, however, I expect Toa of Plasma would be better at providing illumination (not so much as a Toa of Light, of course).Also, I noticed we're talking less about 'major confusions' and more about theories and such. Why isn't there an Official Elements Topic like there used to be for stuff like this?

I said in the first post this topic is to gather information for an official guide. :) I just haven't had time yet to actually make it. Won't for a while.

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#185 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 07:13 AM

When BS01 says that Axonn and Brutaka have the power to create blasts of "pure energy," does that mean they have Light powers? Maybe it doesn't count as actual elemental Light, but the comics show Axonn shooting what appears to be light out of his axe, and light is energy.What exactly is the difference between "elemental" and "non-elemental" anyway? How do we know whether or not a person (besides a Toa) has actual "elemental" powers? For example, Ehlek and the Lightning Bugs are considered to have "non-elemental" Lightning powers, but the Bohrok are considered to have elemental powers even though they are very limited.
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#186 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 09:29 AM

When BS01 says that Axonn and Brutaka have the power to create blasts of "pure energy," does that mean they have Light powers? Maybe it doesn't count as actual elemental Light, but the comics show Axonn shooting what appears to be light out of his axe, and light is energy.What exactly is the difference between "elemental" and "non-elemental" anyway? How do we know whether or not a person (besides a Toa) has actual "elemental" powers? For example, Ehlek and the Lightning Bugs are considered to have "non-elemental" Lightning powers, but the Bohrok are considered to have elemental powers even though they are very limited.

They don't have light powers. Pure energy is just a really common fictional type of energy, and it is really annoying to me. It's like saying 'pure matter', it doesn't make sense. Usually it is depicted as a blast of blue, white or purple light though it can be any colour really.Elemental powers come from an elemental energy source which matoran+variants and elemental masks have (bohrok count as matoran variants, right?), non-elemental powers do not come from that source.

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#187 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 05:55 PM

I said in the first post this topic is to gather information for an official guide. :) I just haven't had time yet to actually make it. Won't for a while.

Agh, sorry, I forgot. It's been a while since I've read the first page.

When BS01 says that Axonn and Brutaka have the power to create blasts of "pure energy," does that mean they have Light powers? Maybe it doesn't count as actual elemental Light, but the comics show Axonn shooting what appears to be light out of his axe, and light is energy.What exactly is the difference between "elemental" and "non-elemental" anyway? How do we know whether or not a person (besides a Toa) has actual "elemental" powers? For example, Ehlek and the Lightning Bugs are considered to have "non-elemental" Lightning powers, but the Bohrok are considered to have elemental powers even though they are very limited.

Elemental energy has certain properties, such as the ability to combine with five other types of elemental energy to make a Toa seal. If five Toa combined to make their powers and a Toa of Light or Lightning added their power, a Toa seal would form, but if the sixth 'element' was light from a flashlight or electricity from a generator or a lightning bug or something, it wouldn't work.As for Axonn and Brutaka's ability, I'd guess that energy would be a very raw form of the energy that's refined into things like elemental energy and mask powers. If that's how it works. I'm not sure.

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#188 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 06:08 PM

When BS01 says that Axonn and Brutaka have the power to create blasts of "pure energy," does that mean they have Light powers? Maybe it doesn't count as actual elemental Light, but the comics show Axonn shooting what appears to be light out of his axe, and light is energy.What exactly is the difference between "elemental" and "non-elemental" anyway? How do we know whether or not a person (besides a Toa) has actual "elemental" powers? For example, Ehlek and the Lightning Bugs are considered to have "non-elemental" Lightning powers, but the Bohrok are considered to have elemental powers even though they are very limited.

They don't have light powers. Pure energy is just a really common fictional type of energy, and it is really annoying to me. It's like saying 'pure matter', it doesn't make sense. Usually it is depicted as a blast of blue, white or purple light though it can be any colour really.Elemental powers come from an elemental energy source which matoran+variants and elemental masks have (bohrok count as matoran variants, right?), non-elemental powers do not come from that source.

Pure energy is usually a term for quantum energy, not light. It's not fictional; Einstein realized with the famous equation e = mc^2 that matter was essentially made of such energy. If an atom is "exploded" the energy it gives off will come out as various things, electrons, positrons, light particles (photons), etc. but all of these are made of something more basic. :) (Modern string theory would say it's the strings, but anyways.)That's my interpretation, anyways, of what Bionicle is referring to with that sort of thing. Pure energy is almost always visualized as giving off bright light, but isn't necessarily light itself. I believe the term was also used for the energy in lightsabers, by the way, which obviously give off light too, in Star Wars.Elemental powers are those that are considered a subpower or one of the actual main elemental powers on the list of environmental control type powers that the GBs defined. Any of the other powers in the infinite possible range of protodermic powers is considered non-elemental. It's probably possible, though, to put nearly all powers as sub-powers of some element or another, or mixes. But for simplicity's sake most are called non-elemental.Actual elements give a wide range of different options for how to use it too, especially based on the imagination of the user (usually a Toa). Both elemental sub-powers and non-elemental powers usually have far less options, and just do one specific thing, within reason. If an elemental energy or substance is said to be controlled by a "non-elemental" power, that means they're just very limited subpowers. Bohrok powers were much more open to options than a simple zap power for example. Calling those non-elemental is probably not the best wording, but it means they can't just do anything they can imagine with it.In some cases they might also be more of biologically or machine generated abilities, like a real-world electric eel, for example, not from a protodermic power at all, but not sure if that applies to those examples. For example Rahi birds using wings to fly versus a Kadin power.

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#189 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Aug 24 2012 - 05:15 AM

So basically it all comes down to whether or not it comes from EE (that the GBs established), how much control that person has over it, and whether or not it comes as a natural ability or a 'Protodermic' power.This makes sense, but I see some problems with it. For one, we have elemental beings such as the Avohkah and the Sonic Entity that don't seem to necessarily have anything to do with EE or Protodermis for that matter (they're just simply living entities somehow made entirely out of electricity and sound), yet they are considered by BS01 to have elemental powers.Also, Greg has stated that Mata Nui didn't have elemental Gravity powers as a robot (even though they would undoubtedly have to do with EE and the abilities of Protodermis) due to the fact that Mata Nui was purely mechanical. However, this conflicts with the idea that the Bohrok have elemental powers, since they are also purely mechanical machines (despite being transformed from biomechanical Matoran).
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#190 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Aug 24 2012 - 07:30 AM

When BS01 says that Axonn and Brutaka have the power to create blasts of "pure energy," does that mean they have Light powers? Maybe it doesn't count as actual elemental Light, but the comics show Axonn shooting what appears to be light out of his axe, and light is energy.What exactly is the difference between "elemental" and "non-elemental" anyway? How do we know whether or not a person (besides a Toa) has actual "elemental" powers? For example, Ehlek and the Lightning Bugs are considered to have "non-elemental" Lightning powers, but the Bohrok are considered to have elemental powers even though they are very limited.

They don't have light powers. Pure energy is just a really common fictional type of energy, and it is really annoying to me. It's like saying 'pure matter', it doesn't make sense. Usually it is depicted as a blast of blue, white or purple light though it can be any colour really.Elemental powers come from an elemental energy source which matoran+variants and elemental masks have (bohrok count as matoran variants, right?), non-elemental powers do not come from that source.

Pure energy is usually a term for quantum energy, not light. It's not fictional; Einstein realized with the famous equation e = mc^2 that matter was essentially made of such energy. If an atom is "exploded" the energy it gives off will come out as various things, electrons, positrons, light particles (photons), etc. but all of these are made of something more basic. :) (Modern string theory would say it's the strings, but anyways.)That's my interpretation, anyways, of what Bionicle is referring to with that sort of thing. Pure energy is almost always visualized as giving off bright light, but isn't necessarily light itself. I believe the term was also used for the energy in lightsabers, by the way, which obviously give off light too, in Star Wars.

Jeez Bones, stop teaching me stuff :D. I'll need to look up on that, sounds interesting. Don't even get started on string theory though, I don't want to touch that until it's absolutely needed.Still, I don't think that pure energy in fiction does refer to quantum energy. It is usually just used as a term that is used because it sounds cool, and it's hardly ever used in sci-fi that doesn't have mystical elements, unlike Star Wars or Bionicle. I can say with a high level of certainty that most story tellers who have used the term wouldn't have thought about exactly what it was.

So basically it all comes down to whether or not it comes from EE (that the GBs established), how much control that person has over it, and whether or not it comes as a natural ability or a 'Protodermic' power.This makes sense, but I see some problems with it. For one, we have elemental beings such as the Avohkah and the Sonic Entity that don't seem to necessarily have anything to do with EE or Protodermis for that matter (they're just simply living entities somehow made entirely out of electricity and sound), yet they are considered by BS01 to have elemental powers.Also, Greg has stated that Mata Nui didn't have elemental Gravity powers as a robot (even though they would undoubtedly have to do with EE and the abilities of Protodermis) due to the fact that Mata Nui was purely mechanical. However, this conflicts with the idea that the Bohrok have elemental powers, since they are also purely mechanical machines (despite being transformed from biomechanical Matoran).

Well I don't know if EE is necessarily protodermic. Some of those glatorian fellows received some, and they are organic. I think the entities get off as well, considering they are literally the embodiment of the element.As for the bohrok, I don't know. Maybe they didn't have elemental powers. I honestly don't know.

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#191 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 24 2012 - 01:23 PM

This makes sense, but I see some problems with it. For one, we have elemental beings such as the Avohkah and the Sonic Entity that don't seem to necessarily have anything to do with EE or Protodermis for that matter (they're just simply living entities somehow made entirely out of electricity and sound), yet they are considered by BS01 to have elemental powers.

They're probably made of elemental energy itself, in different forms.And I don't mean to get too off-topic, but as a Star Wars fan, I am compelled to say that lightsaber blades are actually made of plasma, not 'pure energy'. Look it up if you need to, so we can stay on the subject of Bionicle elements.As for Mata Nui's Glatorian friends, I really don't know. I think in their case, and in the case of the Element Lords, their bodies were altered to be able to handle either elemental energy or a sort of early form of it that's not tied to protodermis.

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#192 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 25 2012 - 04:27 PM

This makes sense, but I see some problems with it. For one, we have elemental beings such as the Avohkah and the Sonic Entity that don't seem to necessarily have anything to do with EE or Protodermis for that matter (they're just simply living entities somehow made entirely out of electricity and sound), yet they are considered by BS01 to have elemental powers.

Well, control is part of elemental power. They may use EE just like Toa, though, to keep their elements replenished. Otherwise you'd think they'd quickly waste away. Something like eating food to keep our bodies healthy. In the case of the sonic entity I prefer to think that the being itself is completely made of some kind of spirit energy, and generates sound elementally both as a tool and a locator function, which does imply elemental energy. Perhaps the beings themselves are in fact made out of elemental energy, and create their actual element all the time from excess. :shrugs:

Also, Greg has stated that Mata Nui didn't have elemental Gravity powers as a robot (even though they would undoubtedly have to do with EE and the abilities of Protodermis) due to the fact that Mata Nui was purely mechanical.

Wait... what? This would contradict the final battle... Are you sure that's what he meant? Quotey? :P I've never heard this. I believe that the robot had access to all possible, or at least known, elemental and protodermic powers, both inside and out. Also, being mechanical has nothing to do with having elemental powers or not; an elemental disk of Fire like Vakama's for example, or a mask, is not biological. Hm... Perhaps he simply meant that he doesn't have the exact same system as a Toa on a huge scale. We do know Mata Nui could generate Gravity (since Makuta did) outside, and also generated artificial gravity inside.

Still, I don't think that pure energy in fiction does refer to quantum energy. It is usually just used as a term that is used because it sounds cool, and it's hardly ever used in sci-fi that doesn't have mystical elements, unlike Star Wars or Bionicle. I can say with a high level of certainty that most story tellers who have used the term wouldn't have thought about exactly what it was.

That's true, but I intentionally never use that likely fact as an influence to forming theories in the stories. Also there's more to writing even than what the writers are consciously aware of; I've often thought that I hadn't established something, consciously, but later discovered that my subconscious intended an explanation all along. I often explore such things as mysteries in my stories. :) Anywho, point is, in Bionicle it is almost certainly referring to what atoms, light, etc. are all made of as in Einstein's discovery. And I think it's likely that most science fiction writers mean the same thing by it, as it's well-known from that famous equation, even among laymen.Also, I actually agree with the mystical portrayal of it in much fiction, as fitting quantum energy. Quantum mechanics as we know it today is very much the describing of effects, without an understanding of the causes (though again string theory seems to explain part of it). And the physics on the quantum scale are quite strange from the normal macro-scale physics we experience; if there was some way to increase the size of such effects, as many have theorized (size-relative wormholes, etc.), then such effects could manifest very much as "magic." I actually think that quantum energy can explain nearly all fantasy magic if you presume there's such a system added to it. :)And that may very well play a strong role in Bionicle; there's many hints to it. Not sure if this example is one, but it might be. Elemental energy, actually, and various similar energy effects seem to indicate that there is a "magical" extra physics that is not dependent on protodermis, and might in fact be the key ingredient that makes protodermis able to do the things it does.

And I don't mean to get too off-topic, but as a Star Wars fan, I am compelled to say that lightsaber blades are actually made of plasma, not 'pure energy'. Look it up if you need to, so we can stay on the subject of Bionicle elements.

Well, I got it from the official site. :P As I understand it it's a forcefield of pure (or quantum) energy that heats the air it's in to produce plasma, also giving off light as the plasma's byproduct.

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#193 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Aug 26 2012 - 10:34 AM

Me:

4) Could Mata Nui's Gravity beams be considered elemental? What about his other powers, such as maintaining Heat and Light inside his body?

Greg:

4) We do not consider MN to have elemental powers as such, not in the same way as a Toa, because he is 100% mechanical. And your body maintains a constant temperature inside, does that mean you have the elemental power of heat?

It appears he meant that he doesn't have the same system as a Toa on a large scale. Also, I don't think he realized that Mata Nui could completely manipulate the heat, light, gravity, etc. in his body to the point where he could directly affect the inhabitants of the robot, which is something that a normal organism couldn't do.

Edited by Anti Nui, Aug 26 2012 - 10:40 AM.

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#194 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 26 2012 - 10:44 AM

Thanks for the quote. Yeah, looks like he was just saying it doesn't work like with Toa. Actually that may be more in line with what I was thinking; that Mata Nui has access to all the known powers and doesn't think of the elemental ones as anything special. Perhaps he can just do whatever he can imagine and whatever protodermis is capable of, without needing predefined powers per se.
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#195 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 02 2012 - 03:48 AM

I know this is probably just a more abstract version of the Water/Ice and Stone/Earth debates, but I've been wondering...since lightning is plasma, then couldn't a Toa of Plasma control lightning?Also, on a mostly-unrelated note, can Toa of Lightning control general electricity, or is their domain restricted solely to actual lightning?
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#196 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Sep 02 2012 - 06:02 AM

I know this is probably just a more abstract version of the Water/Ice and Stone/Earth debates, but I've been wondering...since lightning is plasma, then couldn't a Toa of Plasma control lightning?Also, on a mostly-unrelated note, can Toa of Lightning control general electricity, or is their domain restricted solely to actual lightning?

They might be able to imitate lightning, but they couldn't create actual 'lightning' lightning. Lightning isn't plasma anyway, it's just that so much heat is given off that the air gets turned from gas to plasma. And Toa of Lightning control electricity. Lightning is just a cool way of saying electricity in fiction.Completely unrelated, but can Toa of Psionics create a barrier like a hau does?

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#197 Offline Podu

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Posted Sep 02 2012 - 08:06 AM

I've got a question. What does the elemental Shadow does? So far it seems to be similar to Elemental light in some aspects, like creating solid light/shadow objects, or using them as a beam to burn something. And how does it work exactly?
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#198 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 02 2012 - 10:54 AM

Completely unrelated, but can Toa of Psionics create a barrier like a hau does?

They can telekinetically make objects not get close to them, with more difficulty with the larger ones, and presumably would not be able to if they didn't see it coming. So in a sense, yes. I doubt it would be an energy shield like Tahu's, but it's possible.

What does the elemental Shadow does? So far it seems to be similar to Elemental light in some aspects, like creating solid light/shadow objects, or using them as a beam to burn something. And how does it work exactly?

I think instead of burning it could indirectly freeze things perhaps, but there's never been confirmation of that as far as I know. It can also physically move things as with the Shadow Hands. It works by draining light that is present.

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#199 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Sep 02 2012 - 07:26 PM

Is there any official word as to whether Toa of Iron could make themselves fly or not? I know that Magnetism and Gravity definitely can, and limitedly perhaps Fire and Water and Air. As for Gravity, can they only go up and down or can they fly around places?
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#200 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Sep 02 2012 - 07:50 PM

Well, I'm pretty sure Toa of Stone can't fly by encasing themselves in rock and manipulating the rock (though it would be hilariously counter-intuitive if being covered in stone helped anyone fly), so by the same logic, Toa of Iron wouldn't be able to make themselves fly, even though their metal parts are 'natural' to them. As for Gravity, since they can use their gravity powers to make gravity pull in a different direction for a telekinetic effect, I would expect they could propel themselves. I'm not sure if the elemental propulsion of Air or Magnetism would be easier/more efficient. As for elements like Fire and Water, they could probably propel themselves with a blast of their element, but it would burn through elemental energy fast and be risky. (How safe would a water cannon strong enough to push you off the ground be?)

Edited by The Iron Toa, Sep 02 2012 - 07:52 PM.

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