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Major Confusions On Elements?


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323 replies to this topic

#241 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 05:30 PM

Yeah, I think "Avohkah" just means "shiny" basically. :P

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 03 2012 - 05:31 PM.

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#242 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 04:13 PM

I think it would be a bit selfish to claim the two-letter principle is law unless the name sounds awkward in English. Yes, the line was primarily aimed at an English-speaking audience, it was narrated and popularized in English, yet the names themselves are very far from English, IMO, which is also why I've never been a particular fan of the overly Americanized pronunciation scheme for most names. Considering the tribal atmosphere of 2001, co-PACK-uh and puh-HAT-ew just sound goofy in comparison to the indigenous and awe-inspiring co-PAH-kah and po-HAH-too.Personally, I'm inclined to think the rule was more along the lines of "make it two letters where possible, but more importantly, it should end with a vowel". Otherwise, I don't see how On-Matoran (where "On" would be "own") wouldn't work. Sure, it would confuse a bunch of American folks, but in the end, that's why we've got CDs and online resources to check how stuff's pronounced. Last time I checked, a lot of people were pronouncing Lewa as LEW-uh, so I doubt a little "On" would've been that big of a deal.Oh, and while we're on the subject of English, it does make some sense to name Lightning "Avo", isn't there?
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#243 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 04:25 PM

Oh, and while we're on the subject of English, it does make some sense to name Lightning "Avo", isn't there?

Er, no. Lightning is related to electricity, not actual light. (Scientifically, one is an element of the other, and lightning emits light, but Bionicle generally goes the more traditional route when labeling elements...).

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#244 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 04:29 PM

Bionicle generally goes the more traditional route when labeling elements.

What do you mean by that?

Edited by Surreality, Oct 04 2012 - 04:29 PM.

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#245 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 04:48 PM

I think it would be a bit selfish to claim the two-letter principle is law unless the name sounds awkward in English.

I'm saying it appears to me that that was LEGO's intention. I can't claim it, never heard anyone officially confirm it, but it's pretty obvious, isn't it? :P It's pretty much a standard rule to avoid fantasy languages sounding too much like recognizeable English words. And why else avoid "On-Matoran"?Also, it simply makes sense to keep them all two letters, one syllable if possible. Shorter means easier generally.

Yes, the line was primarily aimed at an English-speaking audience, it was narrated and popularized in English, yet the names themselves are very far from English, IMO,

Right -- I'm saying that's probably intentional. :) Hence the choice of Onu instead of On, to avoid it being too similar to English. I'm getting a vibe you may have misunderstood me, my bad if it was poor word choice. ^_^Of course, let's keep in mind English-sounding Bionicle names are common after the whole Maori fiasco, although that wasn't my point (and this choice was made before that of course).

which is also why I've never been a particular fan of the overly Americanized pronunciation scheme for most names. Considering the tribal atmosphere of 2001, co-PACK-uh and puh-HAT-ew just sound goofy in comparison to the indigenous and awe-inspiring co-PAH-kah and po-HAH-too.

Well my memory is a bit fuzzy on the "official" pronunciations of those, but as far as I know it's Koh-PAH-kuh and Poh-HAH-tue, pretty much as you say. Advertisement announcers and the like rarely care about that stuff and just pronounce them however they feel like; I can think of a few examples of them mispronouncing them, but it's known that the equivalent ads in different dialects and languages likewise pronounce them their own way. Greg commented on that once; basically it's left up to the advertisers to decide how to pronounce it by their own preferences and LEGO doesn't raise a stink over them not being officially correct.Of course, if I've hopped into an alternate universe and suddenly it IS officially Koh-PACK-kuh, then I'd just headcanon that away lol...Anyways, this is getting very off-topic, but maybe because of me being unclear?

Personally, I'm inclined to think the rule was more along the lines of "make it two letters where possible, but more importantly, it should end with a vowel".

I suspected that was your theory. But it's unnecessary because soft consonants next to each other flow well, Onu had to avoid an English word (two actually; On or Own), and even two hard consonants can go next to each other. You could come up with a similar theory in English if you only looked at certain words. The fact that there's at least one example that doesn't fit with that shows that it wasn't the rule. :) Just as once you learn more English words you see that some start with the vowel instead of a consonant. An, it, if, etc. And what decided that difference was words like Onua, Onewa, Onepu, etc. versus consonant-first ones. :)

Otherwise, I don't see how On-Matoran (where "On" would be "own") wouldn't work. Sure, it would confuse a bunch of American folks

As you said, it's primarily an English audience, so you don't want to be doing that. And why do you limit it just to Americans? LEGO and specifically Bionicle are also highly popular in the UK, Australia, and pretty much anywhere English is spoken. "On" is a word in English in general, not just American (and so is own). It's the vast majority of the audience.Even if it was just American, they make up the biggest chunk of the audience so avoiding that confusion makes sense.

but in the end, that's why we've got CDs and online resources to check how stuff's pronounced.

Well, I thought you were asking why they made the choice, and I stand by my theory. :) It fits all the facts. In this case, that's one solution... or you could just allow a three-letter, two-syllable exception, as real languages the world over have exceptions to basic guidelines. I like that as it makes the Bionicle language more interesting and less boringly predictable. Meaty, realistic, etc.Now it seems what you meant is that you don't like the choice (of Av) because you for whatever reason don't like two consonants going together? Maybe because it's so rare in Bionicle language? I get that, if that's what you're trying to get at. But that's a personal taste. I like it, and it's common in a vast variety of real languages, including English and tribal languages, so objectively, why not? :)Really, has anyone ever expressed a difficulty with "Onu" or "Av" on here before? Off the top of my head I cannot recall it. Some have asked why it was like that, and received the same basic answer I gave, but I don't recall anyone saying they don't like it. It seems to be universally accepted until this post, but maybe I'm remembering wrong. :shrugs:

Last time I checked, a lot of people were pronouncing Lewa as LEW-uh, so I doubt a little "On" would've been that big of a deal.

Lewa is a whole 'nother can of worms, and I'm having a hard time seeing how it's related to the original question. :P Either way you pronounce On (ahn or ohn), it matches a common English word, both of which have comedic unfortunateness, so LEGO simply avoided them. :) And there ya go.Just for the record on Lewa, it's been pronounced even in American ads three different ways -- the original was LAY-wuh, Another is LEE-wuh. I accept either of these, because they establish a pronounciation for Onewa that sets him apart from Onua. The LUE-wuh one that has sometimes been used messes that up, so I don't accept it.Personally I got so used to the original that that's how I pronounce it, but the prefix I pronounce LEE. I do think LEE makes the most sense.There could also be LEH-wuh. Oh-NEH-wuh sounds cool to me by that logic, but less cool with Lewa so yeah.And as for which one is correct, the canon has gone so back and forth on it I can't recall which is right. :P I think we had a pronunciation guide that gave it on the old BRC though.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of English, it does make some sense to name Lightning "Avo", isn't there?

Slightly ( :P) but it's too confusing. Something more unique would be much better. Just because there's some logic to one option doesn't make it the best choice.On an unrelated note, my system crashed and I lost the tabs I had open recently including the content I was supposed to use for those polls. I'll have to go back and figure out which post it was in... unless someone wants to link it for me. :P Sorry for the delay.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 04 2012 - 04:58 PM.

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#246 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 05:09 PM

Wow, that's quite elaborate, Bones. I'd have to say you've convinced me. When it comes to the reasoning behind the names, you do have a point.Just for the record, I wasn't saying I disliked "Onu". On the contrary, I used it in order to underline the possibility and logic behind "Avo". Either way, it would be nice if there were a workaround or some sort of "internal reasoning" and pattern behind most BIONICLE terms, other than real-life obstacles and marketing strategies. I understand exactly what you mean, and you are probably right, yet I feel like people should just come up with a "parallel reasoning" from within the BIONICLE universe itself, in order to make it more consistent, wouldn't you agree?Let's just try to look at things from the perspective of an MU inhabitant who's familiar with about as many element prefixes as we are. He knows every single one ends in a vowel, except for "Av", and he's also established that every single prefix is a single syllable, except for "Onu". Now, this fine lad has absolutely no knowledge of the English language and LEGO's story team. What kind of reasoning would he determine? Because with two exceptions, there isn't really a single rule, is there? He'd think, either "Onu" should've been "On", or "Av" should've been "Avo".

Edited by Surreality, Oct 04 2012 - 05:16 PM.

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#247 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 05:20 PM

Bionicle generally goes the more traditional route when labeling elements.

What do you mean by that?

I meant that Bionicle doesn't distinguish between elements in a scientific manner. The classic example (pun not intended) is water and ice, which are scientifically chemically the same. Traditionally, however, they are different. The same would apply to light and lightning.And I don't think a Matoran would question Av or Onu as element-type prefixes, if that's how it's been all their lives. @bonesiii: This post? :shrugs:

Edited by fishers64, Oct 04 2012 - 05:26 PM.

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#248 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 05:30 PM

Good point, and yet, I was looking at things at a clearly etymological perspective. For whatever reason, people on Earth have decided that lightning has something to do with light, and if the former is the official name of the element in the MU, then naturally its equivalent in the Matoran language ought to be similar to the Matoran word for light.Do you see what I was getting at?
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#249 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 05:50 PM

[Note: I was about to add this to my previous post, but I guess I'll post it here now. I wrote this before seeing your latest. :)]You got me curious about whether the idea that two consonants can't go next to each other holds up in Matoran, so I went to BS01 and looked for examples. I started with the Matoran list as that has the widest number and variety, thus the "most scientific sample". Admittedly I don't think any of the original Toa or Turaga did. But original names did have paired consonants.Aft, Agni, Aodhan, Brander, Tiribomba, Nixie (debatable; in terms of sound yes, but Matoran uses the exact English alphabet so it's one letter there too, arguably unrealistically :P), Kongu (the ng sound and the g sound), Sanso (best example so far of soft next to soft), Ahkmou, Gadjati, Dosne, Arktinen, Kantai.These all leave out several examples of Rs, Ys, Ws, and Ls being next to other consonants and other easily debatable ones like Hs, though many of those should probably count too, like Mamru or later Mavrah. It's worth noting that in 2008, the same year of Av-Matoran, there was also Tanma, so there's no rule in Matoran that n and m can't go next to each other, so that cannot be the reason it wasn't On-Matoran instead of Onu-Matoran. :)Just for a few more originals, there's the Tren Krom Pass (n next to k in pronunciation), and the Mangai & Mangaia (again, ng sound plus g sound).It's true that v & m are nowhere else next to each other at least in early names or others that I recall offhand, but other early combinations are rare too, like ft or kt or sn, but being rare does not equal nonexistent. :)

Just for the record, I wasn't saying I disliked "Onu".

Yeah, sorry about that, I see I made it look that way lol. I guess what I was trying to get at was that I get the vibe that most people intuitively understand what I said is the case, that LEGO avoided On because it would be too easily confused with English, not for the vowel ending thing. :)

Either way, it would be nice if there were a workaround or some sort of "internal reasoning" and pattern behind most BIONICLE terms, other than real-life obstacles and marketing strategies. I understand exactly what you mean, and you are probably right, yet I feel like people should just come up with a "parallel reasoning" from within the BIONICLE universe itself, in order to make it more consistent, wouldn't you agree?

As a standard procedure, I definitely agree, but in this case I honestly think LEGO made the job simply too hard, other than accepting it as mere coincidence. Well, to some extent. Like I said, we could theorize that On already meant something else, possibly something prefix-able in Matoran, so they themselves had a confusion issue to avoid, but just not one that is ever transliterated into English. Some less interesting word like "the" or whatever.The reason I say it's hard is because of things like their alphabet just so happening to match ours exactly and so many words like Nuva and the like matches our words and meanings so exactly -- not to mention the original Maori-inspired words match a real language too. It's clearly part of the intentional genre to build it off of real-world inspirations to a major extent, and it's much easier to just accept that and work within the limitations it has, yanno?For example, how could we possibly explain, in-story, how they happened to pick the exact English alphabet? (I should note that this question would take us way off-topic, lol. But just to be thorough...) It's not exactly the most logical arrangement of symbols for sounds even in English; why do we have three letters for the K sound and no letters for the TH, SH, etc. sounds, or why KS as X when those other combos like TH are more common? English's alphabet is a result of a conglomeration of poorly-thought-through happenstance and borrowing from other languages; what are the chances that in a totally alien universe they would just so happen to end up with the same alignment of having symbols for just those sounds?Any explanation of it other than sheer coincidence IMO would be too unbelievable to accept.

Let's just try to look at things from the perspective of an MU inhabitant who's familiar with about as many element prefixes as we are. He knows every single one ends in a vowel, except for "Av", and he's also established that every single prefix is a single syllable, except for "Onu".

Given that we don't know that, it's hard to judge. :P Most are two letters too, but the commonly theorized Kra is not. It also has two consonants. And there might be other two-syllable ones, etc.We don't know the extent of prefixing in the Matoran language. We know of it for elemental prefixes, and the specific cases of Kofo meaning small and Nui meaning large with some Rahi. There could be a vast range of others that are never transliterated and are instead simply 'translated' into English without any hint of the 'actual' prefix grammar. And even if there aren't a lot of other actually prefixed ones, undoubtedly there are many words we aren't privy to, and avoiding confusion with those, too would work in the case of Onu.Also, how many exceptions to what's most common must there be before we believe that the exception exists? :P Answer: One. Pet peeve of mine; it's a common fallacy that people make to pick out rare occurances and then treat them as if they shouldn't exist by virtue of being rare or whatever, in any walk of life. Given that he is told that "Onu" and "Av" are proper, that is simply enough. It's okay for them to be one-off exceptions; there is no need to make other similar exceptions to make those exceptions not feel so lonely. :PPut it this way. Because the percentage of salt I put on scrambled eggs is tiny compared to the mass of the eggs, does that mean that either I should not apply any salt, or that I should make it half salt, half eggs? :P You see that the same logic applied to other things becomes absurd. (No offense, this is just to help show why I don't think the logic works. :)) It's the very rareness of the salt that makes it work and its own unique qualities.Translation: Onu and Av are the spices of Matoran prefixing. :biggrin:

Now, this fine lad has absolutely no knowledge of the English language and LEGO's story team. What kind of reasoning would he determine? ... He'd think, either "Onu" should've been "On", or "Av" should've been "Avo".

Except he wouldn't need to think anything of the sort because he was created with a full knowledge of Matoran and its own grammar rules, likely including many rules we don't know -- and definitely tons of vocabulary. The word Onu is intended to avoid confusion with, if that theory is right, in Matoran would be patently obvious to him, and he wouldn't be confused by it.Again, re the above research that I was going to edit into my previous post, it's simply not accurate that Av should be Avo. Two consonants can go together in Matoran, even if it is rarer than in English, and this Matoran would be aware of a far vaster range of examples, likely including many other v + m examples. He would not ever have a chance to form the misconception that v+m is improper in his language because from the first moment he awakes after being created, he already knows the entire language.

Because with two exceptions, there isn't really a single rule, is there?

Actually, yes. What I gave is one rule that covers both. "Prefixes should be two letters, except when avoiding confusion with an existing word requires one be longer". That's one rule, that can work in-story in this case. Av has nothing else to be confused with in Matoran (if the theory is right, and doesn't in English), while Onu might (and definitely does in English, twice over).And you can only see Av as an exception if you use circular reasoning and presuppose that there is a rule requiring vowel endings to begin with. There simply is no rule. They are most common in Bionicle words, but that doesn't make it a rule, especially because there are so many exceptions (Tren Krom for example uses consonant ends twice). Languages can have anything from even mixtures on that issue to one being very rare. The whole range is acceptable. In fact setting a rule that one or the other only is allowed severely limits the range of possible variety and tends to force languages to become clunkily long. Having both as options allows a wider variety of shorter words. I would argue that it should be a rule in most languages not to have a rule about it. :POne obvious exception would be Japanese -- which creates a cool variety, but it does make the language have to be longer in many ways. Pros and cons either way.

For whatever reason, people on Earth have decided that lightning has something to do with light

That's obvious. Lightning emits light. :P Just like fire and plasma do. And in the case of the Avokah, the Matoran apparently embedded that easy observation in the naming choice.Scientifically speaking, light is made of tiny apparently massless particles called photons, while electricity is made of electrons, which can emit photons, but are not photons and are still tiny but much bigger than photons. Electrons have a negative charge, photons do not. Photons travel at the speed of light, electrons cannot (though they do come closer than most other massful particles). Arguably electricity and light are more different from each other than any material elements are from each other. :PAnd throwing that out because Matoran probably don't know it, they are very different in behavior too.

if the former is the official name of the element in the MU, then naturally its equivalent in the Matoran language ought to be similar to the Matoran word for light.

That does not necessarily follow. In English we normally call it Electricity. It's just translated Lightning in the case of Toa to sound more dramatic, but it was called Electricity in Tahnok-Kal's case. And we're talking about a tiny prefix. There's not as much room for poetic niceties; it's got to be short and to the point, and avoid confusion. Say "Av-Matoran Avo-Matoran" three time fast. Hard to tell the diff, yeah?Point is, there's no reason they should make linguistic note of its shiny nature in the prefix name for it. They could choose whatever aspect of its nature they choose, or just have their own random sound that means it that isn't derived from any more basic etymology.Tangent: I think the real question in this case is what the Agori/Glatorian thought about when they formed their words, as Greg confirmed Matoran uses words from their language, or at least root words, but with programming-language grammar and the like. Electricity, at least in the case of natural lightning, was almost certainly something they identified linguistically, and GBs just borrowed whatever that was. This is probably irrelevant, but just to make sure we're not operating from the idea that Matoran formed these terms. These were elements defined by the GBs originally, so the terms for them must have been. And the GBs, BTW, likely understood the deeper scientific aspects of it, so that might have factored into their choice of prefix versions. :shrugs:

Do you see what I was getting at?

I do. :) I just don't think it works as an "ought" in terms of the best choice. There are a wide variety of better choices for Lightning's prefix that would be much less confusing. And Av versus Avo would be confusing without any reference to English at all -- that could be confusing just within the fiction of Matoran alone.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 04 2012 - 06:14 PM.

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#250 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 06:10 PM

That does not necessarily follow. In English we normally call it Electricity. It's just translated Lightning in the case of Toa to sound more dramatic, but it was called Electricity in Tahnok-Kal's case. And we're talking about a tiny prefix. There's not as much room for poetic niceties; it's got to be short and to the point, and avoid confusion. Say "Av-Matoran Avo-Matoran" three time fast. Hard to tell the diff, yeah?Point is, there's no reason they should make linguistic note of its shiny nature in the prefix name for it. They could choose whatever aspect of its nature they choose, or just have their own random sound that means it that isn't derived from any more basic etymology.

Alright, then their word for lightning doesn't necessarily have to derive from light, but their word for lightning has to, in fact, be lightning if we ought to be diligent, because that's the name they picked for the element.Note how it's been said that Jungle and the Green are virtually the same, and yet the latter is "more popular" in the MU. We're talking about just the name. So if the Green's the Green and not Jungle in the MU, then Lightning has got to be Lightning, even if their word for it has nothing to do with Light.Am I at least correct now? :P


Edited by Surreality, Nov 10 2013 - 09:09 AM.

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#251 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 06:31 PM

Alright, then their word for lightning doesn't necessarily have to derive from light, but their word for lightning has to, in fact, be lightning if we ought to be diligent, because that's the name they picked for the element.

I'm a little confused what you mean. :P But it's called "Lightning" in English in the case of Toa because that sounds more dramatic, but "Electricity" in English with the Kal because that sounds more robotic. In actual Matoran it's the same word. Not sure if that helps, but this is the statement your words made me think of. :P

Note how it's been said that Jungle and the Green are virtually the same, and yet the latter is "more popular" in the MU. We're talking about just the name. So if the Green's the Green and not Jungle in the MU, then Lightning has got to be Lightning, even if their word for it has nothing to do with Light.

You've lost me, I'm afraid. :lookaround: Lightning has to be Lightning as opposed to what? And how does that follow from the Green example?

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 04 2012 - 06:33 PM.

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#252 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 07:06 PM

In actual Matoran it's the same word. Not sure if that helps, but this is the statement your words made me think of. :P

Lightning has to be Lightning as opposed to what? And how does that follow from the Green example?

What I meant was that their own word for Lightning has to be their name for the element of Lightning, as opposed to their word for Electricity. How are you certain that it's the same word in Matoran? And I mentioned the Green because there's evidently a distinction between that and Jungle or Plant Life (if they have a tendency to use one of the bunch, then they obviously have their distinct words, as do we), which implies they most likely also have separate words for Lightning and Electricity. And if they do, logic dictates that since we picked "Toa of Lightning" in English, then it ought to be the equivalent of that in Matoran, as opposed to "Toa of Electricity". Furthermore, if their word for Lightning just so happens to follow the English etymological pattern, then it might well contain the word "Light" within itself, literally. And their word for that is "Av".So basically, I'm not saying "Avo" is a good choice for a prefix. I'm just saying that, given the right circumstances, it is quite possible.

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#253 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 07:27 PM

What I meant was that their own word for Lightning has to be their name for the element of Lightning, as opposed to their word for Electricity. How are you certain that it's the same word in Matoran?

Well, it's my memory, so I'll caveat it as not totally sure, but I believe Greg said what I reported about that. :) (If I state something as a fact like that, that's what that means. :P)Should be able to find out by searching both terms at once in posts in the old S&T if you want to be sure. :)It's also common knowledge, so I doubt it's just my faulty memory. :P

And I mentioned the Green because there's evidently a distinction between that and Jungle or Plant Life (if they have a tendency to use one of the bunch, then they obviously have their distinct words, as do we), which implies they most likely also have separate words for Lightning and Electricity.

But those three words refer to three different things; green is a color, plant life is a type of living object, and jungle is a habitat dominated by those objects in that color. Electricity and Lightning are the same thing, with lightning specifically referring to natural huge quantities of it.I imagine they would likely have three words using Nui and Kofo prefixes to distinguish intensities, but only one actual root term. Kofo-[INSERT ROOT] would be static electricity, the root itself would be typical elemental uses, and in the case of natural lightning or massive elemental attacks they could use Nui-[ROOT].For both Tahnok-Kal and Toa of that element, they would just use the root word, which is the same, but is translated differently in English to add the robotic flavor in the one case, and the more natural flavor in the other.In other words, different languages do not always have the same ranges of words for nuanced meanings. :) There's no reason to assume it must, and since Greg (if bad memory serves :P) confirmed this is a 'translation' thing, there ya go.Depending on what you mean by "distinction", there's no elemental difference between the MU element of Plants or the Bara Magna one. The distinctions are in what kinds of beings wield them not the power or meaning of the names themselves.Also, in the MU I presume only the Plants prefix would actually be used with Matoran, not the nickname; that would be used when for variety's sake writing out the full title -- Matoran of the Green or Toa of the Green versus [PRE]-Matoran or [PRE]-Toa. By contrast, with fire it would be either Ta-Toa or Toa [of the] Ta. I imagine the actual term for "Plant Life" would be clunky; [PRE]ignika perhaps, so the color name is simply shorter in that case, but not with the prefix version. If the prefix is Vi for example that gives Viignika or Vignika, but the color word might be one syllable or two. Yet the prefix is still shorter, yeah?But we really don't know enough about the actual words to be very sure in that case, so yeah.

Furthermore, if their word for Lightning just so happens to follow the English etymological pattern, then it might well contain the word "Light" within itself, literally. And their word for that is "Av".So basically, I'm not saying "Avo" is a good choice for a prefix. I'm just saying that, given the right circumstances, it is quite possible.

I know. But I believe we agree that the analysis can't just stop there, yeah? :)

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 04 2012 - 07:35 PM.

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#254 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 07:40 PM

*sigh* Fine. :P You know what's confusing, though, honestly? The whole transliteration versus translation deal. Do we know if the Matoran alphabet we've seen is their authentic alphabet, that we've just used in an awkward blend of English grammar and alien writing, or it is an entirely different alphabet that only graphically mimics their authentic one so that we can relate it to our English alphabet?
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#255 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 07:48 PM

*sigh* Fine. :P You know what's confusing, though, honestly? The whole transliteration versus translation deal. Do we know if the Matoran alphabet we've seen is their authentic alphabet, that we've just used in an awkward blend of English grammar and alien writing, or it is an entirely different alphabet that only graphically mimics their authentic one so that we can relate it to our English alphabet?

Good question. It would certainly be a lot more believable if that was a somewhat 'translation' thing, wouldn't it? :PI think we can say confidently that they pronounce the words how we're canonically told they do, maybe some exceptions to simplify it for English speakers. Spelling though, not sure.And this has strayed away from elemental discussion. :P

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#256 Offline Click

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 10:25 PM

Just one more question to add to this discussion then, if you'll let me. :DAre the elemental prefixes the actual Matoran word for that, or is it just used as a prefix, perhaps like how we use pre-, post-, etc.? Like would "Warrior of Fire" literally translate into "Ta-Toa", or would it be something like "Toa [of] [Fire]?"Speaking of which, I think it would be cool to make just a huge glossary of all the Matoran words we know. We've got all the mask names, many Rahi names, and a bunch of other terms like "Turaga," "Kanohi," etc. You know, just for reference.
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#257 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 10:28 PM

I think the names of Kanohi are actually the Matoran words for what we call them in English. For example if you call the Kanohi Hau just 'the Hau' you're calling it 'the Shielding'. If that's the case, the full word for Light would be Avohkii, which means Av- and the other prefixes would be abbreviations.Didn't we used to have an Official Languages topic?
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#258 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 11:56 PM

We did. And a couple of other resources like that still findable in the archived pinned official topics list for S&T. :)The term Avohkii means light. We don't know if there is a full word for Ta or if it's just Ta. We do know Tahu, etc. are named after their elements, so it's possible the word for fire is Tahu, but I doubt it / hope not personally. :P I think it's either Ta or a different word with that as its beginning, and Tahu & co. are named after them in the sense of beginning with the prefix.It should be noted that Garai, however, does not mean the element of Gravity whose prefix is Ba. So it gets complex apparently. (I note that the Garai allegedly just controls up and down and not for the user, limits the element itself doesn't have, so that might be a separate term meaning weight or something.)
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#259 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 07:17 AM

It should be noted that Garai, however, does not mean the element of Gravity whose prefix is Ba. So it gets complex apparently. (I note that the Garai allegedly just controls up and down and not for the user, limits the element itself doesn't have, so that might be a separate term meaning weight or something.)

We shouldn't say the Garai doesn't mean gravity just because it doesn't match the prefix. All the other matoran mask names mean what they were called in english, such as how 'Hau' means 'Shielding' and 'Avohkii' means 'Light'. Since the Garai was dubbed the Mask of Gravity in english, it would mean that 'Garai' means 'Gravity' in matoran. It's possible that the mask just doesn't work on the user for similar reasons as psionics.

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#260 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 08:04 AM

I think a really big problem in BIONICLE stems from the fact that some people insisted that all names should literally translate to their meaning, no exceptions. Think about Spirit. We have Iden as in the Kanohi of Spirit, Ka as in Phantoka and Mistika and we've also got Mata. So which one is it?It reminds me a bit of that ludicrous rule about all the Kanohi shapes we've seen being the only and official shapes for those Kanohi (i.e. you can't forge a Kanohi mask in any shape you want, just because). And yet, there are blatantly obvious exceptions like the Kanohi Pehkui (how did whoever made it just make it when you "can't?"), and Lhikan's stylized Hau (LOL, stylized HOW? I thought there were no exceptions). I wonder what the story team's excuse would've been if the Toa Norik set had indeed been made Toa Dume. How would they explain that the Kiril looks the same as a Great and Noble mask? Remember, no exceptions. And the Inika masks, that were designed to look organic because they actually ARE organic? How would they look the same when they're not organic? Honestly, if that rule is meant to simplify things, it has a heck of a way of backfiring.I swear this is my last off-topic post. :P
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#261 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 10:41 AM

I think a really big problem in BIONICLE stems from the fact that some people insisted that all names should literally translate to their meaning, no exceptions. Think about Spirit. We have Iden as in the Kanohi of Spirit, Ka as in Phantoka and Mistika and we've also got Mata. So which one is it?It reminds me a bit of that ludicrous rule about all the Kanohi shapes we've seen being the only and official shapes for those Kanohi (i.e. you can't forge a Kanohi mask in any shape you want, just because). And yet, there are blatantly obvious exceptions like the Kanohi Pehkui (how did whoever made it just make it when you "can't?"), and Lhikan's stylized Hau (LOL, stylized HOW? I thought there were no exceptions). I wonder what the story team's excuse would've been if the Toa Norik set had indeed been made Toa Dume. How would they explain that the Kiril looks the same as a Great and Noble mask? Remember, no exceptions. And the Inika masks, that were designed to look organic because they actually ARE organic? How would they look the same when they're not organic? Honestly, if that rule is meant to simplify things, it has a heck of a way of backfiring.I swear this is my last off-topic post. :P

I haven't heard of any such rule... There are plenty of Kanohi that are different - Antroz and Radiak's Jutlin's were shapeshifted to have teeth, Norik's mask looks like a Kiril, etc.. The main reason you wouldn't want to make it look different as a mask maker is that if a Toa needs a specific mask, the only way to identify it is to have a recognizable shape. If the masks weren't shaped in some sort of uniform way, he might get a Mask of Translation when he needs a Mask of Shielding, which could obviously be pretty bad. :PThat's also why Matoran masks had a clear stain at the top and Noble masks had a black stain - so you would get the power level you needed.-TN05

Edited by Toa Nidhiki05, Oct 05 2012 - 11:05 AM.

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#262 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 10:46 AM

It should be noted that Garai, however, does not mean the element of Gravity whose prefix is Ba. So it gets complex apparently. (I note that the Garai allegedly just controls up and down and not for the user, limits the element itself doesn't have, so that might be a separate term meaning weight or something.)

We shouldn't say the Garai doesn't mean gravity just because it doesn't match the prefix. All the other matoran mask names mean what they were called in english, such as how 'Hau' means 'Shielding' and 'Avohkii' means 'Light'. Since the Garai was dubbed the Mask of Gravity in english, it would mean that 'Garai' means 'Gravity' in matoran. It's possible that the mask just doesn't work on the user for similar reasons as psionics.

What I mean is that where we have just one word, "Gravity", their language apparently has two. "Weight" isn't actually an exact translation, sorry for not being clear, because we know there's a separate power that has so far only been in Kanoka form but presumably there are masks of it too -- Increase Weight. The Garai alters gravity to create a similar effect. We could perhaps translate it as "Natural Gravity Intensity Alterer".This sort of thing is common between different languages. In this case it would be something "lost in translation".

I think a really big problem in BIONICLE stems from the fact that some people insisted that all names should literally translate to their meaning, no exceptions. Think about Spirit. We have Iden as in the Kanohi of Spirit, Ka as in Phantoka and Mistika and we've also got Mata. So which one is it?It reminds me a bit of that ludicrous rule about all the Kanohi shapes we've seen being the only and official shapes for those Kanohi (i.e. you can't forge a Kanohi mask in any shape you want, just because). And yet, there are blatantly obvious exceptions like the Kanohi Pehkui (how did whoever made it just make it when you "can't?"), and Lhikan's stylized Hau (LOL, stylized HOW? I thought there were no exceptions). I wonder what the story team's excuse would've been if the Toa Norik set had indeed been made Toa Dume. How would they explain that the Kiril looks the same as a Great and Noble mask? Remember, no exceptions. And the Inika masks, that were designed to look organic because they actually ARE organic? How would they look the same when they're not organic? Honestly, if that rule is meant to simplify things, it has a heck of a way of backfiring.I swear this is my last off-topic post. :P

Who insisted all names literally translate to their meanings? And even if some fans thought that, that doesn't make it canonically true. ;)Re: Spirit: that's another good example of what is obviously three synonyms or three similar words in their language where in ours we just have three. Although Iden is only really called that poetically; its officially confirmed meaning is "astral projection." It refers more to the sending out of the spirit from the body than to the spirit itself.Ka is also obviously a poetic term akin to how we refer to the bodily housed spirits of living beings. English actually has a range of meanings of spirit that cover that; it's just that we spell the different words the same. (Homonyms.)Mata however may refer to an energy-based spirit, a spirit that is universe encompassing, not believed to have a physical body by the Matoran, and capable of being separated from the robot body, etc. Or just a spirit housed in massive software from the GB's perspective, etc. It could even be a synonym of Ka; English has many synonyms for various meanings.About Kanohi, frankly it sounds like you're getting a bit too emotional about these things and that's causing you to unintentionally exaggerate or misunderstand the intention of certain story factoids. The Kanohi shapes we've seen are not the "only" official shapes. The basic form of them are symbols for their powers, but there is a lot of variation on the theme. Also, the fact that you CAN forge a mask in a different shape that does not culturally symbolize their power does not negate the fact that that shape is the Matoran's chosen symbol for the power. ;)You're imagining a contradiction where none exists by exaggerating the universality of one rule and ignoring that the other canon fact you mention clearly contradicts your exaggeration, and then alleging an inconsistency. The only inconsistency is in your understanding of it; canonically the shapes are labels just as the names are. You could also forge a mask and give it a language label that's different -- you could make an Iden and call it a Kanohi Ka for example, but that abillity does not change that the vast majority of Matoran culturally choose to use the label Iden for that power. Instead of getting upset over this, calm down and try to understand better what was actually meant by the canon factoid in context of the others you know. :)And it's just fiction, no need to get so upset. ^_^Re: the stylized thing, that is only another contradiction with your misunderstanding of the meaning of the shapes. It was never canonically said to be an absolute rule that the exact shapes were the labels and thus any other shape isn't possible. Quite the opposite, as you demonstrate you are aware since you cite at least one canonically confirmed exception. ;) I'm getting the vibe you have made a similar (common, but fixable :P) mistake with the literally translated names thing. Relax and enjoy / think Bionicle through, man, it's entertainment, not something to get upset over. :)And to answer more specifically -- looking at Lhikan's Hau, you can tell it's the same basic shape strategy as Tahu's, yes? Well, so can the Matoran, so it works. Think of it as different fonts. ABCDEF etc. is our official alphabet, but you shouldn't exaggerate that fact and get emotionally upset at the idea that only exactly those shapes tell it. Similar shapes in other fonts, lowercases, etc. are other ways, and plus anyone can come up with their own code that uses other shapes and many do for various purposes (often nefarious but anywho :P).

I wonder what the story team's excuse would've been

This is the kind of emotionalism I'm talking about that is unwise in my experience-- no offense, just trying to help. :) There's nothing wrong with authors / story teams coming up with explanations to make the features of their stories make sense. It's wrong IMO to call these excuses. Explaining these things is a normal part of worldbuilding.

if the Toa Norik set had indeed been made Toa Dume. How would they explain that the Kiril looks the same as a Great and Noble mask? Remember, no exceptions.

You seem to have a problem with exceptions, Surreality. :P Why is this? This is the second thing you've thought there are no exceptions for just because the exception is rare. Please see my earlier comments on this. Why cannot there be exceptions?Rules need not be always absolute, basically. And really the labeling of this as a "rule" is a bit questionable. It's a tradition, a convention like language labels. No Matoran or Turaga ever passed a law (as far as we know lol) saying "Ye must only forge these exact shapes or death! Muahahahaha!" They're guidelines.If you can accept the idea of "flexible rules", though, their actual mental rules (keep in mind this is powered purely by tradition; it's not "law") might be worded something like this:1) Certain mask shapes are symbols of their powers.2) These basic shapes can have a lot of stylized variety in order to still symbolize their powers.3) Highly honored Toa may be gifted with special masks which do not use the power shape symbol system but instead are shaped like past heroes.Anywho, if they had said it was Toa Dume, any number of explanations are possible. Sets are only representations anyways, so it could be simply stated that this is an approximation due to not being certain who it should be when it was made, and that Toa Dume's mask is similar. Or it could be that his Turaga shape remained the Great for any imagineable reason, etc. There would already be evidence for that one, as the "metru indented circle" shape on it that is shared with several other Metru Great masks is not shared with any known Noble masks. Possibly the honoring rule would apply, and the Matoran simply forged a Noble mask in the shape of his Great one to honor his time as a Toa or to say "you are still a hero to us, dear leader." :PThe fact remains that they did not decide to have it be Toa Dume, probably to avoid these more confusing answers. But if they had done so, whatchagonna do? Whatchagonna do? Whatchagonna do? :P It's their universe, and if the answer makes sense, why get upset over it? That just creates needless stress...

And the Inika masks, that were designed to look organic because they actually ARE organic? How would they look the same when they're not organic?

Their non-organic forms would look slightly different. ^^, For example, the rounded corners would likely be more rectangular as with the Toa Mata's masks or the Mahri masks.If you're interested though this is obviously non-canon, the bonesCAFE avs link in my sig has my interpretation of non-organic Great forms of those powers.

Honestly, if that rule is meant to simplify things, it has a heck of a way of backfiring.

Ironically, the "rule" (really explanation about a tradition) was actually meant to explain the exceptions. ;-) You simply misunderstood and took it for the opposite of what it was.What you thought it was, was in fact the common fan assumption at the time that it was specifically intended to debunk -- that the shapes are NOT absolute but are merely carver's traditions... Because people were making the same kind of complaint as you are now about masks like Lhikan's and the Toa Hagah's -- they were assuming that masks had been intended as absolute shapes that forgers couldn't control, and wondered why, even though there are known exceptions, most still seem to follow the rule. Greg cleared it all up by explaining that the standard shapes were merely forgers' conventions. I don't know how you mistook it as the opposite, but in any case, hope this clears up the confusion.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 05 2012 - 11:29 AM.

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#263 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 11:15 AM

Hm, quite frankly, it's always been my impression that Greg's opinion was that you can only have one shape per mask, not as a symbol or something commonly accepted, rather simply "this is it, that's what it looks like, no exceptions". I must've been mistaken, but hasn't Greg shown this attitude towards a lot of other BIONICLE aspects? Take destiny. It's a huge deal in BIONICLE, obviously the term has only a very vague definition, and yet everyone "fulfills their destiny in the end". Once again, no exceptions. Lots of word twisting, fact bending and various interpretations of what can otherwise simply be called "evading one's destiny or transcending it". But no, you always end up fulfilling it, even if that means getting your head smashed by a moon. :PI might sound emotional, yes, but it's because when I see something that I consider a flaw, I'd rather try my best to expose it (dunno why, that's just me, I guess) than gather all the possible proof for why it was the right and reasonable choice in the first place. You, Bones, seem to be ridiculously skilled at the latter (not saying that as a bad thing). :PEDIT: Alright, I guess I suck more at wording my opinions than I'd hoped. Call it emotional if you will, it's just more of a primal, impulsive sense of opposition when something simple (without overanalyzing it) doesn't seem to make plain sense. I never said I thought that there should a Kanohi-shape rule, or that it makes sense that there's one (i.e. WHY ARE THERE EXCEPTIONS? THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY), or that I want one. What I meant was simple. I was sure that Greg's position (not mine, nor my desire) was that there were rules when forging the masks, as opposed to guidelines, like you said.Basically, me say "Y U NO ALLOW EXCEPTIONS?" when it's painstakingly clear there are such exceptions. It was a misunderstanding, yes, though I'm not sure it was on my part, as I've heard reference keepers tell me about that so called rule. All I wanted was to say it made no sense. But since that's evidently not the case, then I'm happy there is no such silly rule.Furthermore, I've never been under the fan misconception that every mask's shape is set in stone and there is no room for deviation. Quite the contrary, I've always assumed there is plenty of room for artistic improvisation, until somebody claimed that Greg had made that nonexistent rule, in fact, a rule, which is what I believed made no sense (I swear, someone told me that, I didn't make it up). So I'm glad that isn't the case. Not unhappy about it, glad. :P

Edited by Surreality, Oct 05 2012 - 11:49 AM.

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#264 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 11:46 AM

Even in english words can have the same meaning. For example, flammable and inflammable. They both mean the same thing, except one is just used to confuse people into accidentally starting fires.As for kanohi, you are indeed mistaken when you say that. There was a topic about this a few weeks back, though I can't find it now. Anyway, Kanohi can be moulded into any shape the forger wants, but the shapes that we commonly see are just used because they are the most recognisable. Remember, the power of the masks doesn't come from the shape, it comes from the disks that made it. Lhikan's Hau looking different is most likely a regional thing. Tahu's Hau would be the Artahka version while Lhikan's would be another version. And as for the Inika's masks looking the same as their inorganic counterparts, well, it is exactly what it sounds like. They look the same, except they feel squishy and sort of think.Sorry about the off topic post. Also, guys, elements.

Edited by High Voltage, Oct 15 2012 - 03:57 AM.

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#265 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 12:02 PM

Hm, quite frankly, it's always been my impression that Greg's opinion was that you can only have one shape per mask, not as a symbol or something commonly accepted, rather simply "this is it, that's what it looks like, no exceptions". I must've been mistaken, but hasn't Greg shown this attitude towards a lot of other BIONICLE aspects?

I don't see how you could accurately get that impression. Especially since he has explicitly said the opposite in many cases, including this. He's also said that there can be multiple canon interpretations of the characters' basic appearances, even.It doesn't surprise me you got that impression though; no offense, but I have observed often that people who take an emotionalism approach to trying to understand the world around them often misunderstand it, while those who try what I've learned to do; calmly trying to understand it for what it is, tend to understand it better. :) Again, my intent in pointing this observation out is to help, so just some advice to consider; wisdom that had helped me and might help you. :) You're just fitting a pattern I have noticed, as an obsessive observer of people. :) And I think some of it is a choice or mistake that can be improved by a better choice of approach, basically.Not entirely sure, though -- there may be a taste part to it where some people honestly have trouble accepting or registering exceptions or rarities?Aaaaanyways... Elements. :PNah, I'll allow the tangential deviation for now as I admit there's nowhere else really to put it other than a new topic and it would be odd to start a new topic for a continuing conversation lol. But can we try to steer it back to elements somehow?

Take destiny. It's a huge deal in BIONICLE, obviously the term has only a very vague definition, and yet everyone "fulfills their destiny in the end". Once again, no exceptions. Lots of word twisting, fact bending and various interpretations of what can otherwise simply be called "evading one's destiny or transcending it". But no, you always end up fulfilling it, even if that means getting your head smashed by a moon. :P

IMO the jury's still out on fate vs. destiny which is what that is really about. Fate is generally the term used for unavoidable futures, destiny for something you're supposed to do but can thwart.First, I have pointed out many times before that we do not, as far as I know, actually know for sure that destiny cannot at all be thwarted. Say a Toa's destiny is to achieve a goal that requires he be alive, but some outside factor the system couldn't foresee comes in and kills him. Then destiny would IMO need to at least adapt to assign the same destiny to someone else. Assume in this example that the Red Star Sendback teleporter is already broken. :P Since Mata Nui often lands on alien worlds to observe them, for example, aliens might possibly have the tech to detect this (or powers or whatever) before he can observe this trait about them, and invade, and end up killing our destined Toa, before the destiny system could figure out how to stop it. Theoretically.Second, we do know the path to the big goals can be thwarted; Makuta achieved his along a very different route than planned. IMO destiny has a priority system. Low priority destinies are those that are the "means" not the "end" and these can change as thwarting them requires manipulating events to come up with new means to the same end.But anywho, I consider the big moral lesson of destiny in Bionicle, for Teridax at least, to be that evil is foolish in the end. The destiny system outsmarted him, and because he was so evil, it only left the "means" one choice which involved killing him -- sort of a death sentence for thwarting the good means destiny originally intended him to follow. Destiny in this case being set by the GBs, so it is a sort of hidden hand, via some artificial system, to guide events according to their intention.

I might sound emotional, yes, but it's because when I see something that I consider a flaw, I'd rather try my best to expose it (dunno why, that's just me, I guess) than gather all the possible proof for why it was the right and reasonable choice in the first place. You, Bones, seem to be ridiculously skilled at the latter (not saying that as a bad thing). :P

Well I have theories about that too. That's why I tend to want people with that personality on teams like the Story Squad as it's a talent for spotting what sometimes will after analysis turn out to be real flaws. :) But I'm talking more about the choice to let them actually upset you, and for that to possibly blur your understanding of what the canon actually is. In this case I am aware of many statements (though foggily in bad memory admittedly :P) that contradict your understanding. I'm not really collecting arguments to defend it, I'm just telling you how it actually is from an objective standpoint. :)Let me try to translate this discussion so far in terms of one of the examples you used -- my spidey senses tell me that what you're driving at with Toa Norik is that you are chafing against the set-based input and real-world limitations that caused that awkwardness (which nobody disputes). Right? But my point is, this IS a toyline-based story, and there's nothing the story team can do about that unfortunate blunder -- other than come up with the most sensible explanation. Also, once they do come up with it, people may validly like it. :) The cause of the explanation in the real world should not hinder our enjoyment of the results -- the idea that honored heroes get a special award type thing.I'd also point out that much more than just the set thing causes such explanations. The forger's tradition factoid in fact flows as a natural result from the physics explanation of what masks are. The powers come from the substance as elaborately used with the sets with Kanoka. And the shapes are made by forging. Therefore, it is pure logic that you could pour the substance for one power in the mold that is normally used to label a different power.Yes?Elements... Elements... Uh... yeah... lol...

Even in english words can have the same meaning. For example, flammable and inflammable. They both mean the same thing, except one is just used to confuse people into accidentally starting fires.

*nods and lols* And hey, that was remotely element-related! :PAnd I see you stole me thunder about the molds thing, heh. Yeah.And Greg explained all of this, so the idea that he believes the opposite is simply inaccurate.Might I suggest that stems from not following what he said closely enough and then coming up with assumptions to fill in the gaps in your knowledge? :) Again, please do not take offense, just honestly saying how it appears to me, and it's something for you to consider and do with what you will. ^_^And I bring this up mainly because I have noticed this as a common apparent trend among critics of Greg; their criticisms seem more to stem from their own lack of understanding of what Greg has actually said rather than of any actual mistakes Greg made, and it is as a moderator IMO my duty to try to correct such misunderstandings to avoid pointless hurt feelings and unfair rumors. Whether this applies to you or not is something you will have to consider; I suspect not very much, but I can't let the misunderstanding stand lest it feed false rumors. :) The impression you mentioned is one I have seen them sharing, and since it is clearly inaccurate, it's important not to let it spread. Comprendy me? ^^,

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 05 2012 - 12:13 PM.

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#266 Offline Requiem

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 12:02 PM

I have a question. Recently, I was looking through the elemental powers you are allowed to use in Bionicle RPG, and Crystal was listed as one of them. But bonesiii said that it wasn't confirmed as an actual canon element? I'm just a little confused.. :???:
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#267 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 12:07 PM

I have a question. Recently, I was looking through the elemental powers you are allowed to use in Bionicle RPG, and Crystal was listed as one of them. But bonesiii said that it wasn't confirmed as an actual canon element? I'm just a little confused.. :???:

Only these elements are canon (official):http://biosector01.c...#Known_ElementsBut an RPG is a fan thing. No reason they have to stick with official rules. :)I'd also note that in the Expanded Multiverse, a fanon project Swert and I are currently in charge of, we accept Crystal as "EM-canon", but it is not part of LEGO's official Bionicle. So fans often have their own "headcanons" like that. My guess is that whoever made the rules of that RPG headcanons Crystal, meaning they like it and want it to be part of their RPG even though it's not "Bionicle canon". Does this help? :)Surreality, to add to my previous post about the Toa Norik thing, I guess what I'm getting at is it looks like you're blaming (being upset at) the story team for a mistake that was simply not theirs -- it was from the set designers not getting input from the story team in time, and having a money limitation on new molds. You should not blame the story team for that. Right? :) And it's even questionable whether you should blame the set side, as there really are financial limitations like that.What alternative is there? Should they declare that set non-canon? That would break standard rules of always incorporating sets into the story in order to help "advertise" and sell them. :)

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 05 2012 - 12:11 PM.

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#268 Offline Requiem

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 12:12 PM

Yes, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks! :biggrin:
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#269 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Oct 05 2012 - 12:36 PM

But can we try to steer it back to elements somehow?

Don't worry, I got this.FIRE PLASMA PLASMA PSIONICS. GRAVITY SHADOW WATER? STONE. ICE LIGHTNING, MAGNETISM IRON!Everything should be fine now.

Edited by High Voltage, Oct 05 2012 - 12:43 PM.

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#270 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 10 2012 - 07:08 PM

I think we went over this already, but I need to go over it again:How can a Toa run out of elemental energy over the course of hours of regular use when this power all together is enough to cover tens or hundreds of square miles (with enough force to devastate everything in the area)? I know it has something to do with them not having perfect control over their elements, but a clear explanation would be good.
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#271 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Oct 10 2012 - 07:35 PM

If it's Gali's Nova Blast you're referring to, this is both an instance of sci-fi writers having no sense of scale (:P) and the fact that she's a Nuva. It's also possible that the affect of the Elemental Energy increases exponentially with a greater amount used.
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#272 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 10 2012 - 07:42 PM

Actually it was said that a regular Toa's Nova Blast is big enough to cover all of Metru Nui. That's a lot smaller than her Nuva Nova Blast, which flooded all of Karzahni, but still pretty darn big.
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#273 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 12:49 AM

Hours of regular use? From the Voyage of Fear/Maze of Shadows....through the whole Visorak thing, I would think it would be more like days (and then they gave up some of their elemental energy twice during that time, once to power the Toa Stones that they hid, and once to heal an ash bear). I think they had plenty.I don't exactly consider defeating the Morbuzak to fall under the category of "regular use". :P Plus it could be argued that the Toa Metru's lack of experience contributed to them using too much power at a time and thus running out.(They wasted too much of it fighting that plant IMO...just use the disks, already. :P)
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#274 Offline VeoiTheRascal

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 09:10 AM

(and then they gave up some of their elemental energy twice during that time, once to power the Toa Stones that they hid, and once to heal an ash bear).

Toa Stones are not powered by elemental energy but toa energy. Just a nit pick there. ^_^

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#275 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 01:59 PM

So Elemental Energy runs out and recharges over the course of days, then? I thought it was more on a scale of a few hours for some reason.And does the energy recharge over time whatever a Toa is doing, or does the Toa actually have to rest to get it back?
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#276 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 02:58 PM

It's a few hours if they have only spent a little of it. :)It's always charging unless it's at capacity, but typical use will probably be spending more than is coming in, even for small things. Maybe if, for example, a Ga-Toa makes a water droplet it might remain constant. :shrugs:

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 11 2012 - 02:59 PM.

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#277 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 03:09 PM

So Elemental Energy runs out and recharges over the course of days, then? I thought it was more on a scale of a few hours for some reason.And does the energy recharge over time whatever a Toa is doing, or does the Toa actually have to rest to get it back?

Using the element draws upon a reserve of power, a reserve that is constantly being recharged.

More like constantly. It's only when they use a big amount of energy in a short time (Nova Blast, defeating Morbuzak), that they run out.Noticeably, anyway. There are pauses in events between uses of the element in books and stuff, which would allow the elemental energy Vakama used in, say, making a fireball to recharge. Makes it look like they have an endless reserve when in fact they do not.

(and then they gave up some of their elemental energy twice during that time, once to power the Toa Stones that they hid, and once to heal an ash bear).

Toa Stones are not powered by elemental energy but toa energy. Just a nit pick there. ^_^

You're right...

Edited by fishers64, Oct 11 2012 - 03:13 PM.

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#278 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 03:13 PM

But does it take days to deplete it completely and then days to recharge it completely? And I was pretty sure it recharged constantly, too, but wasn't sure.
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#279 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 03:26 PM

It all depends on how they use it, Iron Toa. There could be a scenario in which they use a lot, it recharges almost as much, but they use the same amount, one-step-forward-two-steps-back type thing over a course of days that would enable that, yes. This is probably what happened with the Toa Metru vs. Morby. But theoretically if they were almost constantly using it they could get depleted over a much shorter time.
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#280 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 03:39 PM

But does it take days to deplete it completely and then days to recharge it completely? And I was pretty sure it recharged constantly, too, but wasn't sure.

I don't think we know exactly how much time it takes to recharge. If you want to go off Dume's "Matoran by morning, Toa by afternoon" comment and the portrayal of LoMN, then no, it's hours. But we don't know (or at least, I don't know) that the Toa had their elemental energy completely recharged by the time they used it against Teridax. In fact, I suspect they didn't, because there was a point where their powers had barely come back but not fully. That would indicate, at least to me here, that there is a "threshold" level at which that power can be used...anything lower than that, the power turns off. Toa can use their elemental power even when not at a full charge. So not absolute proof, but given LoMN I would ballpark it as about a day. As for draining, that would depend on the attacks used, the amount of elemental energy required above the Toa's rate of recharge for each attack, and the amount of time that they would have to recharge between attacks. For example, Nova blast drains all Toa energy in a very short time. Fireballs require a certain amount. Now how many fireballs Vakama could hit you with before he would have to take a break is something unknown.

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