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Major Confusions On Elements?


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#281 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 06:42 PM

Well, if he started at full EE, wouldn't he be able to hurl as much fire in fireballs before recharging as he could release in a Nova Blast all at once? We don't know how many fireballs that is, but I'd say, just on the basis of elemental energy (not considering mental and physical fatigue) that would come out to thousands, or even millions of fireballs.
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#282 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 07:09 PM

Well, if he started at full EE, wouldn't he be able to hurl as much fire in fireballs before recharging as he could release in a Nova Blast all at once? We don't know how many fireballs that is, but I'd say, just on the basis of elemental energy (not considering mental and physical fatigue) that would come out to thousands, or even millions of fireballs.

Yes, right...okay...Except we don't exactly have a bearing for that. It could be only 200 fireballs, or 1000, or something like that. :) I sincerely doubt it is millions, however. The GBs were nervous about the Toa getting too much power and running amok, so I doubt they would get that much power at a time.

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#283 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 07:12 PM

If you want to go off Dume's "Matoran by morning, Toa by afternoon" comment and the portrayal of LoMN, then no, it's hours.So not absolute proof, but given LoMN I would ballpark it as about a day.

Hm, was that literal? I was under the impression that at least a few days went by with the Morby. They had to do an awful lot for a few hours.

Well, if he started at full EE, wouldn't he be able to hurl as much fire in fireballs before recharging as he could release in a Nova Blast all at once?

More, since the Nova Blast all goes at once and doesn't have time for any to recharge, but hurling fireballs constantly would be able to use the extra amount that comes in before it's all depleted.As for amount, I always treat it as more like thousands in my fanfics. Not really sure if that's canon, but I don't think they used that much EE against the Morby compared to millions.

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#284 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 07:28 PM

Yeah, it doesn't really add up. Maybe there's a normal threshold of how much EE they can use, and only a Nova Blast calls upon all of their reserves?
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#285 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 07:35 PM

If you want to go off Dume's "Matoran by morning, Toa by afternoon" comment and the portrayal of LoMN, then no, it's hours.So not absolute proof, but given LoMN I would ballpark it as about a day.

Hm, was that literal? I was under the impression that at least a few days went by with the Morby. They had to do an awful lot for a few hours.

I wouldn't call it "a few hours". But a few days is definitely out. The only other time reference my brain registers is the one at the beginning of The Darkness Below when it says that the Toa were heroes, saved the city, etc and the day wasn't done - it was afternoon. (And they have 36 hour days, too.)And realistically, I think it was more like chasing after Matoran, getting everyone together, splitting up to get the disks, then getting back to bust the plant before it gets you. Sounds like a lot on paper but not so much if you're in a hurry. They had chutes to get them places quickly. IMO it just seems like a lot because it was spread out over two books. :PFurther, LoMN starts with Dume's announcement of Lhikan's disappearance. I don't think he could waited 3 days or something before making the announcement. Somebody would notice that Lhikan wasn't around after that time and start to wonder about what was going on, I think. Especially since there were six new Toa running around...

Yeah, it doesn't really add up. Maybe there's a normal threshold of how much EE they can use, and only a Nova Blast calls upon all of their reserves?

No, because otherwise the Metru wouldn't have been able to use too much in such a short period. I think each attack requires a certain amount of it, with the Nova blast requiring all of it. But I don't think there is a limit on how much they can use at any given time, aside from the amount that they have. For example, I find it likely that Vakama could generate 10 fireballs at once, for example. The only limit on that would be Vakama's focus, concentration, etc, as opposed to some arbitrary use-at-once elemental energy limit. Until he ran out.

Edited by fishers64, Oct 11 2012 - 07:49 PM.

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#286 Offline VeoiTheRascal

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 07:55 PM

How much energy would a Toa use up if they were strictly manipulating there element? So, if a fire toa, only exercising their pyrokinesis? I'd imagine that it would spend less energy but other's opinions would welcome. ^^And speaking of elemental energy consumption, would a toa of stone or water have to use up more elemental energy than a toa of fire due to the 'material' forms or their elements? In consequence, would said stone or water toa have a larger elemental energy cache in order to create and use their elements properly?
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#287 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 08:04 PM

How much energy would a Toa use up if they were strictly manipulating there element? So, if a fire toa, only exercising their pyrokinesis? I'd imagine that it would spend less energy but other's opinions would welcome. ^^

...What else would they manipulate?

And speaking of elemental energy consumption, would a toa of stone or water have to use up more elemental energy than a toa of fire due to the 'material' forms or their elements? In consequence, would said stone or water toa have a larger elemental energy cache in order to create and use their elements properly?

This is possible, but it's never been confirmed or hinted at. I think it's best to assume that all Toa have approximately the same amount of EE.In regards to above posts regarding the Metru... the Toa Metru were very unskilled. Rather than being able to ration their elemental energy and get "more for less," so to speak, like Lhikan or Helryx, they had to use a lot more energy for the same attacks. That's probably part of the reason their EE depleted so quickly.

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#288 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 11:40 PM

How much energy would a Toa use up if they were strictly manipulating there element? So, if a fire toa, only exercising their pyrokinesis? I'd imagine that it would spend less energy but other's opinions would welcome. ^^

I agree it would definitely spend less. If this was Earth physics we could say far, far, far less. There's enough energy in just a tiny chunk of antimatter, if reacted with matter (and turning into energy essentially as a result) to blow a massive crater in our planet. Now that doesn't seem to be true in Bionicle by a long shot (there'd be some major risks with elemental energies if it was :P), but it's probably closer to that than equal.

...What else would they manipulate?

He means versus materializing it. Manipulating existing material/etc. :) (It's a question I've been expecting for months. :P)

And speaking of elemental energy consumption, would a toa of stone or water have to use up more elemental energy than a toa of fire due to the 'material' forms or their elements? In consequence, would said stone or water toa have a larger elemental energy cache in order to create and use their elements properly?

Well, Toa of Fire materialize flammable material, plus enough heat to ignite it with standard air. It's quite possible the math of that comes out just right so there's no need for a larger cache. But different sized caches is possible too. Basically, it doesn't matter IMO because either way the effect is the same; equal effectiveness basically.

IMO it just seems like a lot because it was spread out over two books.

Probably so. Finding the Matoran seems to be the big hurdle IMO. Maybe my memory is overestimating how hard that was though.

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#289 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 11 2012 - 11:45 PM

How much energy would a Toa use up if they were strictly manipulating there element? So, if a fire toa, only exercising their pyrokinesis? I'd imagine that it would spend less energy but other's opinions would welcome. ^^

...What else would they manipulate?

I think he means how much Elemental Energy it costs to manipulate an element instead of creating it from nothing. That's a good question, one I'd also like an answer to.

And speaking of elemental energy consumption, would a toa of stone or water have to use up more elemental energy than a toa of fire due to the 'material' forms or their elements? In consequence, would said stone or water toa have a larger elemental energy cache in order to create and use their elements properly?

This is possible, but it's never been confirmed or hinted at. I think it's best to assume that all Toa have approximately the same amount of EE.

I agree, but I wonder if denser elements cost more EE to materialize. Like would a 1 x 1 bio block of stone take a Toa of Stone more EE to create than it would take a Toa of Fire to fill the same volume with flames.

In regards to above posts regarding the Metru... the Toa Metru were very unskilled. Rather than being able to ration their elemental energy and get "more for less," so to speak, like Lhikan or Helryx, they had to use a lot more energy for the same attacks. That's probably part of the reason their EE depleted so quickly.

That makes a lot of sense. But I still don't have a satisfactory answer as to how Toa can run out of EE from normal use when they have enough to cover a whole island. Even if the Metru were using their powers very inefficiently, it seems to me they should have been able to pour their power into the Morbuzakh for days straight.

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#290 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 12 2012 - 12:06 AM

I agree, but I wonder if denser elements cost more EE to materialize. Like would a 1 x 1 bio block of stone take a Toa of Stone more EE to create than it would take a Toa of Fire to fill the same volume with flames.

I think it's indisputable that more dense substances would take more EE. Some elements like Iron and Stone can materialize a range of densities. Stone for example could make lightweight protopumice (or the equivalent) or protogranite. The latter would take more EE per volume.Comparing between different elements may be another matter, though. It's possible all of them are carefully tuned so that the average ranges come out about the same. At least with protodermic materials. :shrugs:

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#291 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 12 2012 - 02:41 PM

I wonder, then, if it takes more EE for a Toa of Air to manipulate air, because they would rarely actually have to create their element.Actually, I have another question, too: can Skakdi unleash Nova Blasts? (I would hope not, and think not, otherwise they'd probably be setting them off constantly...)

Edited by The Iron Toa, Oct 12 2012 - 07:57 PM.

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#292 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Oct 13 2012 - 11:02 AM

I had always thought that the reason the Toa Metru ran out of energy so quickly was because they weren't experienced enough to ration their energy effectively; they fired a whole lot of really excessively powerful elemental bolts at the Morbuzakh that ultimately did little to nothing. By the time they figured out it wasn't working and used the disks, they had expended most of their energy. -TN05

Edited by Toa Nidhiki05, Oct 13 2012 - 11:03 AM.

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#293 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 04:10 AM

Nova blasts are toa exclusive if I recall correctly.
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#294 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 05:37 AM

Nova blasts are toa exclusive if I recall correctly.

:yes:

Unleashing a Fire Nova Blast (Toa-exclusive)

Unleashing a Magnetism Nova Blast (Toa exclusive)

Unleashing a [insert Element name here] Nova Blast (Toa exclusive)


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#295 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:26 AM

Well there you go.
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#296 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 25 2012 - 08:35 PM

Matoran traits & such -- Polls are up!Plants (prefix, trait)Plasma (prefix, trait, environ)Magnetism (prefix, trait, environ)Gravity (trait)Lightning (prefix, environ)
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#297 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Nov 23 2012 - 03:20 PM

Do you think a Toa of the Green's power applies to fungi as well? They're quite different from plants, but on the other hand, the two are sometimes traditionally put into one category.Also, when are the Elemental trait polls going to be closed and the results posted? It looks like the topics for Plasma and Lightning have died.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Nov 23 2012 - 03:21 PM.

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#298 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 23 2012 - 08:16 PM

I would presume Fungus doesn't count under Plants. It's already a very wide range as-is. That would go under the Ignika's power alone, or hypothetical sub-powers of Life, like a Mask of Fungus Control or the like.
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#299 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Nov 25 2012 - 01:01 AM

So you know how the surviving Iron Tribe members changed their armor colors to orange and yellow in order to pass off as a tribe of a different element? Well, we know that this tribe they were trying to pretend to be never existed, but I always wondered: if someone were to ask them on the spot "What tribe are you from?" what would they say? The Plasma Tribe? The Autumn-Colored Leaves Tribe?I mean, yeah, no one fell for it, so no one would have asked them, but still.
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#300 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 25 2012 - 02:14 AM

So you know how the surviving Iron Tribe members changed their armor colors to orange and yellow in order to pass off as a tribe of a different element? Well, we know that this tribe they were trying to pretend to be never existed, but I always wondered: if someone were to ask them on the spot "What tribe are you from?" what would they say? The Plasma Tribe? The Autumn-Colored Leaves Tribe?I mean, yeah, no one fell for it, so no one would have asked them, but still.

Whatever tribe their armor was the color of. If they were wearing red armor, they would say that they are from the Fire Tribe.

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#301 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Nov 26 2012 - 01:05 AM

So you know how the surviving Iron Tribe members changed their armor colors to orange and yellow in order to pass off as a tribe of a different element? Well, we know that this tribe they were trying to pretend to be never existed, but I always wondered: if someone were to ask them on the spot "What tribe are you from?" what would they say? The Plasma Tribe? The Autumn-Colored Leaves Tribe?I mean, yeah, no one fell for it, so no one would have asked them, but still.

"Uh, yeah, hello. Don't mind us, we're just some guys from the jungle tribe who are passing through. And, ummm... it's Autumn up there, so that's why we're orange. Yeah. That works. So uh, we'll be going now. Bye."

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#302 Offline Vahima- The Toa of Time

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 12:46 PM

Going back to sand, Lewa can control sand with air. In the Mask Of Light, Lewa whips up a sand twister to suck up Panrahk, Lerahk and Guurahk, and Tahu joins in to make the sand twister turn to solid glass. :superfunny:
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#303 Offline Toa Of Anarchy

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 01:36 PM

I would apperciate someone telling me what is the differance between earth and stone?I mean...is it where the stone comes from, or what type of rock formationJust wanted to askVezon(I don't feel like babbling)

Nova blasts are toa exclusive if I recall correctly.

THat brings up a question I have....can makuta do a shadow nova blast?

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#304 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 01:54 PM

Right, but he can't control the sand directly or create it. Gali could control sand in water the same way.
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#305 Offline Erebus

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 02:12 PM

I would apperciate someone telling me what is the differance between earth and stone?I mean...is it where the stone comes from, or what type of rock formationJust wanted to askVezon(I don't feel like babbling)

Earth is dirt, stone is rock. That's pretty much how Greg Farshtey describes them.

Nova blasts are toa exclusive if I recall correctly.

THat brings up a question I have....can makuta do a shadow nova blast?

Only Toa can do Nova Blasts, so only Toa of Shadow can do a Shadow Nova Blast.

Edited by Erebus, Nov 27 2012 - 02:13 PM.

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#306 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 03:09 PM

So you know how the surviving Iron Tribe members changed their armor colors to orange and yellow in order to pass off as a tribe of a different element? Well, we know that this tribe they were trying to pretend to be never existed, but I always wondered: if someone were to ask them on the spot "What tribe are you from?" what would they say? The Plasma Tribe? The Autumn-Colored Leaves Tribe?I mean, yeah, no one fell for it, so no one would have asked them, but still.

Whatever tribe their armor was the color of. If they were wearing red armor, they would say that they are from the Fire Tribe.

Except there is no tribe that wears yellow/orange armor. What I'm asking is if they had to make up a name for their "tribe" based on an element, what could it be, hypothetically?

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#307 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 06:43 PM

I thought there was something about painting the armor, but I couldn't find it on BS01 so I'm probably wrong...
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#308 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 07:16 PM

So you know how the surviving Iron Tribe members changed their armor colors to orange and yellow in order to pass off as a tribe of a different element? Well, we know that this tribe they were trying to pretend to be never existed, but I always wondered: if someone were to ask them on the spot "What tribe are you from?" what would they say? The Plasma Tribe? The Autumn-Colored Leaves Tribe?I mean, yeah, no one fell for it, so no one would have asked them, but still.

Whatever tribe their armor was the color of. If they were wearing red armor, they would say that they are from the Fire Tribe.

Except there is no tribe that wears yellow/orange armor. What I'm asking is if they had to make up a name for their "tribe" based on an element, what could it be, hypothetically?

I thought that they changed the color of their armor from that orange color to something else. Like, to try to blend in...

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#309 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Nov 27 2012 - 07:22 PM

Their armor was originally gray and blue. They changed it so they could pretend to be from a previously unknown tribe, but it didn't work. I have no idea if it was meant to represent some other element.
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#310 Offline Cee Matrix

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Posted Nov 30 2012 - 01:06 PM

I know this doesnt exactly fit, but I dont want to make a new thread. Once a Toa's elemental energy is used up, can they get it back, and how?


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#311 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Nov 30 2012 - 01:39 PM

Elemental energy recharges over time.


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#312 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 08:21 PM

I have a question about Magnetism. Why is it that Magnetism is an absorbable element but Gravity is not? I remember the justification for Gravity's non-absorbable nature as being "you wouldn't need to absorb it, since it's almost always present in some amount." Now, I'll admit, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to magnetic physics (and yes, I know that real-world physics don't always apply in Bionicle, but bear with me here), but wouldn't that same rule apply to magnetism? And if so, then what need is there for Toa of Magnetism to be able to absorb their element?


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#313 Offline Zeonox

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 09:03 PM

I was wondering, do Toa Seals have limits? Can they be broken by immense power?


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#314 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 10:32 PM

I have a question about Magnetism. Why is it that Magnetism is an absorbable element but Gravity is not? I remember the justification for Gravity's non-absorbable nature as being "you wouldn't need to absorb it, since it's almost always present in some amount." Now, I'll admit, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to magnetic physics (and yes, I know that real-world physics don't always apply in Bionicle, but bear with me here), but wouldn't that same rule apply to magnetism? And if so, then what need is there for Toa of Magnetism to be able to absorb their element?

Presumably, weakening a magnetic field or de-magnetising a magnetic object would require absorbtion of magnetic fields (somehow; chalk it up to Bionicle physics). In contrast, Gravity can just create opposing gravitational fields to replicate anti-gravity, meaning there'd be no need to absorb gravity in the first place. Magnetism behaves differently from gravity in that smaller objects can still have powerful fields, so there's more need for a Toa of Magnetism to de-magnetise something than for a Toa of Gravity to de-gravitise something, as it were.

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#315 Offline Veeks

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 10:41 PM

Can Toa of Iron control other metals? or just iron


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#316 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 10:50 PM

Can Toa of Iron control other metals? or just iron

I would assume that "Iron" refers to any kind of protometal in general, and is not limited to any particular iron-like compound.

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BZPRPG TIME, where you could have one post talk about dinner, and the next about lunch.

Time is beyond relative here.

There's no reason not to put lasers in the palms of planet-sized robots. In fact, if I had my own planet-sized robot, palm lasers would be one of my first upgrades. It's good for self-defense if you're attacked by something big.

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#317 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 11:12 PM

Yes, Greg confirmed "Iron" is just a poetic name that sounds cooler than Metal in his view, and that they control all metal.


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#318 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Jan 03 2013 - 11:12 PM

I have a question about Magnetism. Why is it that Magnetism is an absorbable element but Gravity is not? I remember the justification for Gravity's non-absorbable nature as being "you wouldn't need to absorb it, since it's almost always present in some amount." Now, I'll admit, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to magnetic physics (and yes, I know that real-world physics don't always apply in Bionicle, but bear with me here), but wouldn't that same rule apply to magnetism? And if so, then what need is there for Toa of Magnetism to be able to absorb their element?

I always believed that the reason you wouldn't be able to abosrb gravity is because that would turn the laws of quantam physics on their head and rip a giant hole in spacetime.

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#319 Offline High Voltage

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Posted Jan 04 2013 - 12:22 PM

I have a question about Magnetism. Why is it that Magnetism is an absorbable element but Gravity is not? I remember the justification for Gravity's non-absorbable nature as being "you wouldn't need to absorb it, since it's almost always present in some amount." Now, I'll admit, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to magnetic physics (and yes, I know that real-world physics don't always apply in Bionicle, but bear with me here), but wouldn't that same rule apply to magnetism? And if so, then what need is there for Toa of Magnetism to be able to absorb their element?

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Because Greg F does what he wants  :notsure:.

 

 

I was wondering, do Toa Seals have limits? Can they be broken by immense power?

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As seen with the Makuta Stone, they can be carved.  However the action of carving comes at the cost of a lot of the carver's energy, and Roodaka pretty much almost died just when carving a tiny chip out.  It may be doable with enough resources, but I would doubt it.  It severely depreciates the value of a Toa Seal if they can be broken by any old shmuck with a powerful organisation behind him, and the fact that the BoM didn't use the substantial arsenal of powerful tools at their desposal when their resident old shmuck was imprisoned may indicate that it is impossible.  I don't know why though.  Maybe the Toa Seal gets harder the deeper you get or something.


Edited by High Voltage, Jan 04 2013 - 12:24 PM.

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Blah blah signature blah.  With italic to make it look fancy.


#320 Offline stargatestaticTH

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Posted Jan 04 2013 - 01:00 PM

why are there no known male toa of lightning?is there some sort of hormone malfunction that blocks them from obtaining such a power?


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i eat your beakfast for my breakfast while you sleep...bwahahahaha! its me...
whoever wants to be in my new movie series involving mugen,just PM me and give me a very complete sprite sheet of your character.it can be any kind.(sonic,mario,dbz,bionicle,etc..)the more diversity the better.be warened, it will not be made for a while, as im waiting for more people. Also, giving me your sheet tells me i can use this character in any sprite movies/comics i choose to make, given i will as accurately as i can represent said character as well as possible.)





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