Legend Of Mata Nui

[-Takua-]

So back before the forums went down, the legendary Deep Brick had given us, through RedQuark, an unprecedented look at the canceled Bionicle game "Legends of Mata Nui." Here's the old thread, for reference, and if you want to watch the videos, they're available on MarkOfMoD's channel on a popular video sharing website. His username doesn't stand for anything at all, if you were wondering. By the end of the thread, though, RedQuark had passed on a few files that, if we could figure them out, could potentially let us go beyond the room in Onu-Koro that was blocked because of a bug. Since then, Deep Brick put his computer into storage and has gone largely silent, and RedQuark hasn't been too talkative either. The forums going down, of course, didn't help. But progress has been made on the save files in some other corners of the Internet, and we now have an understanding that could potentially let us see parts of the game, with Deep Brick's help, that we've never seen before. So this topic is to discuss the videos already published by DB/RQ, the game itself and the progress that we'll make on it once and if Deep Brick gets back in on the action. Is the team still here? We're as close as we've ever been to finally seeing the rest of this game!

[Gatanui]

I am still here. I was in fact thinking if I should re-post the topic, but I figured I should let one of you guys do it as I was not as active in this discussion as others (particularly in the first months, although I had been reading the topic since day one).~Gata.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Gatanui

[BULiK]

ah, i remember this topic. what you said takua made barely any sense, and im too excited with new forums and on a posting spree to read it all right now, so could you explain?

[Kopaka - Toa Nuva of Ice]

I'm still interested--unfortunately we don't have as many members here right now, since the forums have been gone for such a long time. Not everyone knows we're back, as far as I can tell.

[Gatanui]

I'm still interested--unfortunately we don't have as many members here right now, since the forums have been gone for such a long time. Not everyone knows we're back, as far as I can tell.

I guess they will find out before too long. If not, I am sure we can find ways to contact them. Anyway, could you reveal some more details concerning the recent progress with the save files, Takua?~Gata.

[-Takua-]

Yeah. I will write the full explanation soon, but it's been a while since I've looked at the files! But basically we've figured out the structure and which flags signify your location and stuff like that. There are only a few parts not understood, and we don't think those have anything to do with where you're located. We have to know a name of a new area to plug in, of course, but we have a few good guesses and it's possible that a look at the files could give us a hint about the other area names. A full explanation is certainly in order, though, now that the forums are back up! Hopefully I will have a chance soon to write it up.

[emily]

Good to see this topic back up. I lack the technological know-how necessary to be of help, but I'm very excited to learn more about the game just the same. Who would've thought, back in 2001, that people would still be discussing a cancelled game made to promote a toy ten years in the future?

Edited October 14, 2011 by Tazakk

[JrMasterModelBuilder]

Hey, thanks for starting this topic again, -Takua-!I don't know if there are any other binary reverse engineers on this website, but I would like to post that some progress has been made on the onua.blk file RedQuark gave us.I have figure out most of the file format, so here it is:

0x00 > bytes{4} = 0x424C4B46 = (BLKF) Header0x04 > bytes{4} = 0x01000000 = UNKNOWN (Probably an unimportant version number)0x08 > unit{4} = Number of files (0x81000000 or 129 in onua.blk)//Repeat for each file:bytes{40} = File name (Null terminated)unit{4} = File size.bytes{4} = UNKNOWN //These byte's uint value is always greater than the file size. Maybe the uncompressed file size?bytes{4} = Unknown, but always 0x03000000 in onua.blkuint{4} = File positions in the .blk archive//And the rest is just the bytes for each file.

Based on this information, I created an extractor:BLK Extractor Version 1.1 (Runs on the Adobe AIR runtime)With it, you can extract each individual file in onua.blk into a folder. Unfortunately, each individual file is compressed in some unknown format not described by the BLK file (as evidenced by the broken headers in the binary Direct X (*.x) 3D model files). Until we can figure this compression out, we can edit the files in onua.blk. For anyone who wishes to attempt this, I have put together a list of all the files and their associated data (except the 0x03000000 that is associated with all the files) in two formats below:SpreadsheetPlain TextI have asked RedQuark about this (months ago) and he said he would ask Deep Brick if he had any info and if he would provide directory listings of the CD and install folder. No word back, as of yet. Edited October 14, 2011 by JrMasterModelBuilder

[-Takua-]

Great summary, JMMB. Here's my work on the save file. The basic structure is that it contains independent pieces of information as you'd expect. So one sequence has the location, one sequence has your health, and one series of sequences indicates all of the UDD pieces you've picked up. The outline is below:

start //Clusters of null bytes in between each section// Global information2 bytes: [##]4 bytes: [&&&&] //A 4-character code that represents your location12 bytes: [0rts0kolauno] //Same in all save files analyzed; represents, at least, the Toa you're playing as //Collected UDD symbols8 bytes: [##teAAAA] //Each A represents a character, repeated as many times as UDD pieces you've collected //Quests and waypoints8 bytes: [&&&&&&&&] //Repeated; a string or set of numbers that represents a quest (e.g., "csidevac")8 bytes: [AAAA###v1] //Repeated; each sequence represents a conversation that you've had (e.g., "gllv101v").2 bytes: [0#] //Possibly health?//Some number of null bytes, then,2 bytes: [##] //Represents the number of fruits that you've collected (FA, the max, in most save files)end

Clever readers might already notice the trick: all string sequences are reversed. So at the top, the indicator that you're playing in Onua's level is the "auno", "onua" backwards. The example of a quest, "csidevac", is just "cavedisc" backwards, which starts making more sense. These clusters of strings are usually 4 or 8 bytes long, and I've found things like "cave" "disc" "atrm" "bbug" "l1a1" "pic1" "l1a1" "claw", all of which are sort of clear. Then, the best part, is the locations. Up at the top, the four character string for a location includes values like (reversed, of course): "bech" (beach), "cave", "atrm" (atrium), "pzzl", (puzzle), "clf1" (cliff 1), "shrn" (shrine), all representing different zones that the player is in, specifically different loaded level models. So the last location before the bug stops you is "hk01". I don't know what it stands for, but it seems at least plausible that "hk02" is a nearby room that has yet to be visited. Or, we could just change the "auno" to "ilag" and make the level something like "nrhs" ("shrine" backwards) that is likely to be in Gali's set of levels, and we can skip forward. So we're really at the point where we can start trying things out, as soon as, of course, we have a chance to.

[MantaxApprentice]

Wow, the progress has me really excited. This topic was actually the one I missed the most out of all of them during the downtime. Hopefully we can get this thing working again soon!

[BULiK]

ooh, progress! so, what are you planning to do?

[Riglax]

This is definitely an interesting topic. Is there any information on how far had they had gotten with the game? Did they code and design all of it, or did they stop in the process?

[UltraHau]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Reverse-engineering the level format is helpful, but only if we already have the media and game engine to begin with (neither of which we have)[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely[*]This game was designed for Windows 9k/2000. Since Windows 7, IIRC, broke ABI compatibility with earlier versions of Windows, the only way anyone could play the game even if they had it would be if they had a copy of Windows 95/2000 on hand, or used WINE (which is Linux-only)

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

I think the only problem with that are making the 3D models look good, but we have a lot of talented people here that could do a good job with that.

[UltraHau]

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

I think the only problem with that are making the 3D models look good, but we have a lot of talented people here that could do a good job with that.

I'm actually not that bad with 3D modeling, but programming is by far my primary strength. Maybe we should make a separate thread about this...?

[alpha123]

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

I think the only problem with that are making the 3D models look good, but we have a lot of talented people here that could do a good job with that.

I'm actually not that bad with 3D modeling, but programming is by far my primary strength. Maybe we should make a separate thread about this...?

I'd be willing to help with this (if I can find the time). I absolutely suck at 3D modeling, but I'm a good programmer. Unfortunately, my only experience game making is the admittedly rather simple platformer in my signature. Most of my programming is web related.

[-Takua-]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Reverse-engineering the level format is helpful, but only if we already have the media and game engine to begin with (neither of which we have)[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely[*]This game was designed for Windows 9k/2000. Since Windows 7, IIRC, broke ABI compatibility with earlier versions of Windows, the only way anyone could play the game even if they had it would be if they had a copy of Windows 95/2000 on hand, or used WINE (which is Linux-only)

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

I think the main objective at this point is to allow DB to move on to other levels, as no one has had a problem with the already-posted gameplay videos. We'll see what happens, but we're nowhere near actually getting the game playable by other people. Still, getting new gameplay videos is pretty exciting for some of us! I'd suggest that if we want to plan a new game (not a bad idea!) we should discuss it in the FGC forum, and keep this space for discussing details about the LOMN. EDIT: I see now that you already suggested making a new topic. Great minds think alike! Edited October 16, 2011 by -Takua-

[Meiko]

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

[Gatanui]

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

I suppose you are referring to BIONICLE: The Game? BIONICLE: The Legend of Mata Nui was never released to the public after all, only a few copies from a beta production stage are available (although a beta test never took place).The stuff you, JMMB and Takua, describe, sounds very exciting. Hopefully DB will have access to that old computer again soon!~Gata. Edited October 16, 2011 by Gatanui

[Meiko]

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

I suppose you are referring to BIONICLE: The Game? BIONICLE: The Legend of Mata Nui was never released to the public after all, only a few copies from a beta production stage are available (although a beta test never took place). ~Gata.

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of the Mata Nui Online Game.

[Gatanui]

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

I suppose you are referring to BIONICLE: The Game? BIONICLE: The Legend of Mata Nui was never released to the public after all, only a few copies from a beta production stage are available (although a beta test never took place). ~Gata.

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of the Mata Nui Online Game.

Oh. As far as download links for MNOG are concerned, try the big banner in my sig. Or you can try tronec.org as well.~Gata. Edited October 16, 2011 by Gatanui

[Meiko]

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

I suppose you are referring to BIONICLE: The Game? BIONICLE: The Legend of Mata Nui was never released to the public after all, only a few copies from a beta production stage are available (although a beta test never took place). ~Gata.

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of the Mata Nui Online Game.

Oh. As far as download links for MNOG are concerned, try the big banner in my sig. Or you can try tronec.org as well. ~Gata.

Thanks, I'm downloading a couple of the games. So what exactly is Legend of Mata Nui about? :3

[Gatanui]

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

I suppose you are referring to BIONICLE: The Game? BIONICLE: The Legend of Mata Nui was never released to the public after all, only a few copies from a beta production stage are available (although a beta test never took place). ~Gata.

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of the Mata Nui Online Game.

Oh. As far as download links for MNOG are concerned, try the big banner in my sig. Or you can try tronec.org as well. ~Gata.

Thanks, I'm downloading a couple of the games. So what exactly is Legend of Mata Nui about? :3

LoMN was supposed to be the very first BIONICLE video game, announced for fall 2001. If you have seen a video of Onua waking up on the beach or other pictures of Onua on Mata Nui, they are possibly from the game. It was developed by Sapphire which bankrupted soon after the game was cancelled by LEGO, whose official reason was that it did not comply with LEGO´s quality standards. A few beta tester spots could be won in a LEGO Magazine contest but the beta test most likely never took place. Last year, gameplay videos emerged, recorded by DeepBrick, who is possibly the only person in the world to own the game. The problem with the game is that it only works on old systems and on a very specific high-performance gamecard. This compatibility issue was probably the main reason for cancelling the game, for it could not be finished in time, added to the fact that said gamecard was very good for that time, thus expensive, and that not everybody owned it. I think the upcoming of Windows XP on that year, where the game did not work on, was another reason. DeepBrick has access to a computer complying with all those requirements, but only once in a while, hence the slow progress. We have, however, been given several files by DeepBrick, including the save file, which we are trying to deduce of how it works so that we can progress to another area in the game and skip an unpassable area that has impeded any gameplay beyond the Onua level. We are now eagerly awaiting news from DB, so we can try the modified save files. Another problem is that the copy is most likely illegal, so DeepBrick does not want to release it without a definite permission by LEGO.I think that covers it all. Please let me know if I have made any mistakes!~Gata. Edited October 16, 2011 by Gatanui

[JrMasterModelBuilder]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Reverse-engineering the level format is helpful, but only if we already have the media and game engine to begin with (neither of which we have)[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely[*]This game was designed for Windows 9k/2000. Since Windows 7, IIRC, broke ABI compatibility with earlier versions of Windows, the only way anyone could play the game even if they had it would be if they had a copy of Windows 95/2000 on hand, or used WINE (which is Linux-only)

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

Personally, I think releasing the game falls under fair use. My Frogger video game was designed for Windows 95 but runs without any compatibility settings on Windows XP (haven't had to try any newer computers with that game, but I wouldn't be surprised if it could be made to work on Windows 7). Rock Raiders, LEGO Racers, LEGO Island, LEGO Alpha Team have all been reported to work on Windows 7. I wouldn't bet it can't work on newer computers. Also, Wine can be used natively on Apple OS X and it's easy to install Linux under a virtual machine to run Wine, though I find this a rather unlikely approach.

Man, that was a good game. I don't have it anymore, because I got a new laptop, and it was on the desktop computer that I don't use anymore. Does anybody have a download link or the install file?

I suppose you are referring to BIONICLE: The Game? BIONICLE: The Legend of Mata Nui was never released to the public after all, only a few copies from a beta production stage are available (although a beta test never took place). ~Gata.

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of the Mata Nui Online Game.

Oh. As far as download links for MNOG are concerned, try the big banner in my sig. Or you can try tronec.org as well. ~Gata.

Thanks, I'm downloading a couple of the games. So what exactly is Legend of Mata Nui about? :3

LoMN was supposed to be the very first BIONICLE video game, announced for fall 2001. If you have seen a video of Onua waking up on the beach or other pictures of Onua on Mata Nui, they are possibly from the game. It was developed by Sapphire which bankrupted soon after the game was cancelled by LEGO, whose official reason was that it did not comply with LEGO´s quality standards. A few beta tester spots could be won in a LEGO Magazine contest but the beta test most likely never took place. Last year, gameplay videos emerged, recorded by DeepBrick, who is possibly the only person in the world to own the game. The problem with the game is that it only works on old systems and on a very specific high-performance gamecard. This compatibility issue was probably the main reason for cancelling the game, for it could not be finished in time, added to the fact that said gamecard was very good for that time, thus expensive, and that not everybody owned it. I think the upcoming of Windows XP on that year, where the game did not work on, was another reason. DeepBrick has access to a computer complying with all those requirements, but only once in a while, hence the slow progress. We have, however, been given several files by DeepBrick, including the save file, which we are trying to deduce of how it works so that we can progress to another area in the game and skip an unpassable area that has impeded any gameplay beyond the Onua level. We are now eagerly awaiting news from DB, so we can try the modified save files. Another problem is that the copy is most likely illegal, so DeepBrick does not want to release it without a definite permission by LEGO. I think that covers it all. Please let me know if I have made any mistakes! ~Gata.

Some clarifications: LEGO's offical PR statement from that time was that it didn't meet LEGO's standards of quality (pretty generic) or "chip compatibility and timing" ("timing"?). Some Saffire employees (including higher-end-of-the-pay-scale employees) say that LEGO cancelled the game (a 3rd person shooter game [when LEGO was still very anti-violence]) on account of what happened on 9/11/01 (bad timing?), which impacted and cancelled may different media productions. Who's right, who's wrong, we may never know. RedQuark said the beta test never took place according to several letters from LEGO. At least one other Saffire employee was given a copy, but he wasn't able to find it. DeepBrick says he can only get it to run properly on a certain computer with an nVidia graphics card. We don't know the full range of what it will or won't work with or what all DeepBrick has tested. Also, we have conflicting reports of how complete the game actually was when it was cancelled ranging from the next year to almost "gold" as they say. Edited October 17, 2011 by JrMasterModelBuilder

[UltraHau]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Reverse-engineering the level format is helpful, but only if we already have the media and game engine to begin with (neither of which we have)[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely[*]This game was designed for Windows 9k/2000. Since Windows 7, IIRC, broke ABI compatibility with earlier versions of Windows, the only way anyone could play the game even if they had it would be if they had a copy of Windows 95/2000 on hand, or used WINE (which is Linux-only)

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

I think the main objective at this point is to allow DB to move on to other levels, as no one has had a problem with the already-posted gameplay videos. We'll see what happens, but we're nowhere near actually getting the game playable by other people. Still, getting new gameplay videos is pretty exciting for some of us! I'd suggest that if we want to plan a new game (not a bad idea!) we should discuss it in the FGC forum, and keep this space for discussing details about the LOMN. EDIT: I see now that you already suggested making a new topic. Great minds think alike!

Unfortunately, we can't make a thread in the FCG yet - no proof we're working on it yet. *goes off to make demo*

[I love pie]

I'm still here, I glad I found this. Great to see the progress going again.

[BBBBalta]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely

The last we heard from RQ was that he was working on a secret plan of sorts to allow the game to be made legally available to download. No word yet on how this has progressed during the forum downtime, of course.

• [*]Reverse-engineering the level format is helpful, but only if we already have the media and game engine to begin with (neither of which we have)

Assuming RQ's plan succeeds, it's just as well that we get a head start on figuring out how to alter the game now. This game is full of bugs which will need to be fixed, and this will undoubtedly take a while.

• [*]This game was designed for Windows 9k/2000. Since Windows 7, IIRC, broke ABI compatibility with earlier versions of Windows, the only way anyone could play the game even if they had it would be if they had a copy of Windows 95/2000 on hand, or used WINE (which is Linux-only)

Actually, DB has only found one computer which will run the game at all; it requires not only a specific operating system but also a specific graphics card. We aren't too worried about this, though, as there are many programming whizzes on BZP who can figure out compatibility issues given enough time.

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

There was actually a project like this underway before the forums went offline called BIONICLE: Year One. The topic wasn't re-posted yet last I checked, but Sumiki was in charge, contact him if you're interested.

[I love pie]

It probably won't be easy fixing all those bugs. I think RQ once said the slightest mistake would mess up the whole game.

[UltraHau]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely

The last we heard from RQ was that he was working on a secret plan of sorts to allow the game to be made legally available to download. No word yet on how this has progressed during the forum downtime, of course.

Aside from asking Lego - who, as the copyright holder, is the only entity who can legally distribute LoMN - for permission, I'm not sure what RedQuark could do.

• [*]Reverse-engineering the level format is helpful, but only if we already have the media and game engine to begin with (neither of which we have)

Assuming RQ's plan succeeds, it's just as well that we get a head start on figuring out how to alter the game now. This game is full of bugs which will need to be fixed, and this will undoubtedly take a while.

Considering we would not have access to the source code of LoMN even if RedQuark was able to distribute it to us (legally, of course), fixing the in-game bugs would be borderline impossible.

• [*]This game was designed for Windows 9k/2000. Since Windows 7, IIRC, broke ABI compatibility with earlier versions of Windows, the only way anyone could play the game even if they had it would be if they had a copy of Windows 95/2000 on hand, or used WINE (which is Linux-only)

Actually, DB has only found one computer which will run the game at all; it requires not only a specific operating system but also a specific graphics card. We aren't too worried about this, though, as there are many programming whizzes on BZP who can figure out compatibility issues given enough time.

I'm probably the whizziest programming whiz on BZP (IMHO - then again, I actually have quite a bit of real-world programming experience), and without access to the source code, fixing the bugs would involve de-compiling the LoMN executable, which is legally questionable. Even then, I doubt anyone here would know enough assembly and low-level DirectX to get LoMN to a playable state.

Frankly, I think we should just leave both Deep Brick and RedQuark alone, use this community's talent to create a new Bionicle fangame that is better in every aspect, and free of all these legal issues. I and my 6 1/2 years of programming experience are willing to pitch in.

There was actually a project like this underway before the forums went offline called BIONICLE: Year One. The topic wasn't re-posted yet last I checked, but Sumiki was in charge, contact him if you're interested.

No offense, but I think everyone's attempts here at making a high-quality Bionicle fangame has failed due to a bad choice of tools. There is a much better free 3D engine than Unity, and it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX, not to mention it's open-source. I'll PM Black Six soon to see if it's notable enough to be able to be linked from FCG (which it should be - a very big media company uses it for their MMO games).

[BBBBalta]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely

The last we heard from RQ was that he was working on a secret plan of sorts to allow the game to be made legally available to download. No word yet on how this has progressed during the forum downtime, of course.

Aside from asking Lego - who, as the copyright holder, is the only entity who can legally distribute LoMN - for permission, I'm not sure what RedQuark could do.

Well, RQ has understandably not revealed details of his plan yet, so there's no real way to judge whether it will work short of waiting for further word from him. As for the programming stuff, members such as JMMB, DJ Reidak, and alpha123 seem convinced that they'll be able to pull this off given enough time. I don't know much about that kind of thing, so I'll leave it up to them to respond if they wish...

[UltraHau]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely

The last we heard from RQ was that he was working on a secret plan of sorts to allow the game to be made legally available to download. No word yet on how this has progressed during the forum downtime, of course.

Aside from asking Lego - who, as the copyright holder, is the only entity who can legally distribute LoMN - for permission, I'm not sure what RedQuark could do.

Well, RQ has understandably not revealed details of his plan yet, so there's no real way to judge whether it will work short of waiting for further word from him. As for the programming stuff, members such as JMMB, DJ Reidak, and alpha123 seem convinced that they'll be able to pull this off given enough time. I don't know much about that kind of thing, so I'll leave it up to them to respond if they wish...

Unfortunately, they don't know what they're getting themselves into. They've made the assumption that the bugs lies in the data files, which is probably not true. The bugs are most likely in the game engine itself, and without access to the source code, to fix the bugs, they'll have to:

• [*]De-compile the LoMN executable, which is legally questionable in and of itself[*]Figure out where the bugs are in the de-compiled executable, which is comment-less assembly code, which I doubt any of them can or could understand - I know I can't

[-Takua-]

Nah, no one is talking about decompiling the executable (or at least, not to my knowledge). You're right that we've assumed the bug lies in the data files, but I think that's an adequate assumption, given the nature of the bug: It only appears in one spot. There are a number of ways in which we could get around the bug, ranging from simply editing the save file to let you skip the room to more invasive things like adjusting the collision layer in the 3D files. That's another clear assumption, as you'd be right to point out, but one way or another, a hard-coded kill layer or something like that seems at least equally likely to a collision layer in the 3D file that was moved too high. I mean, we could argue about that all day, but we won't know until we try. When it comes down to it, though, .exe decompilation is illegal, and we're not proposing that. Please try not to sound pretentious; JMMB, myself and the rest have outside programming experience, too. I think our goals may be misrepresented by people who aren't as clear as to what will or won't be possible, but those of us who have mucked around in the data stuff that we've already seen largely share your point of view.

Edited October 17, 2011 by -Takua-

[JrMasterModelBuilder]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely

The last we heard from RQ was that he was working on a secret plan of sorts to allow the game to be made legally available to download. No word yet on how this has progressed during the forum downtime, of course.

Aside from asking Lego - who, as the copyright holder, is the only entity who can legally distribute LoMN - for permission, I'm not sure what RedQuark could do.

Well, RQ has understandably not revealed details of his plan yet, so there's no real way to judge whether it will work short of waiting for further word from him. As for the programming stuff, members such as JMMB, DJ Reidak, and alpha123 seem convinced that they'll be able to pull this off given enough time. I don't know much about that kind of thing, so I'll leave it up to them to respond if they wish...

Unfortunately, they don't know what they're getting themselves into. They've made the assumption that the bugs lies in the data files, which is probably not true. The bugs are most likely in the game engine itself, and without access to the source code, to fix the bugs, they'll have to:

• [*]De-compile the LoMN executable, which is legally questionable in and of itself[*]Figure out where the bugs are in the de-compiled executable, which is comment-less assembly code, which I doubt any of them can or could understand - I know I can't

Actually, the data files is exactly where most games store level data. For example, LEGO Island 2 areas are defined by external 3D model files and collision files. Rock Raiders has external level definitions. LEGO Racers is almost certainly set up this way as well. I can't think of any video games that even appear to have level definitions in the executable itself. It's not practical. That all assuming that we even have to bother. A Saffire employee said that all you have to do is edit the save file to get around the major bugs. EDIT: Ah, -Takua- , you beat me. It's also possible the collision areas are defined by files external to the 3D model. Edited October 17, 2011 by JrMasterModelBuilder

[UltraHau]

I'm not so sure this is exciting as many people make it out to be, for several reasons:

• [*]Legally, neither Deep Brick nor RedQuark can put up even a demo of LoMN, because they do not hold the copyright to it[*]Lego holds the copyright to the game, so only Lego could legally put the game itself up for download. If Lego gives Deep Brick or RedQuark permission, they could upload it themselves, but I find that unlikely

The last we heard from RQ was that he was working on a secret plan of sorts to allow the game to be made legally available to download. No word yet on how this has progressed during the forum downtime, of course.

Aside from asking Lego - who, as the copyright holder, is the only entity who can legally distribute LoMN - for permission, I'm not sure what RedQuark could do.

Well, RQ has understandably not revealed details of his plan yet, so there's no real way to judge whether it will work short of waiting for further word from him. As for the programming stuff, members such as JMMB, DJ Reidak, and alpha123 seem convinced that they'll be able to pull this off given enough time. I don't know much about that kind of thing, so I'll leave it up to them to respond if they wish...

Unfortunately, they don't know what they're getting themselves into. They've made the assumption that the bugs lies in the data files, which is probably not true. The bugs are most likely in the game engine itself, and without access to the source code, to fix the bugs, they'll have to:

• [*]De-compile the LoMN executable, which is legally questionable in and of itself[*]Figure out where the bugs are in the de-compiled executable, which is comment-less assembly code, which I doubt any of them can or could understand - I know I can't

Actually, the data files is exactly where most games store level data. For example, LEGO Island 2 areas are defined by external 3D model files and collision files. Rock Raiders has external level definitions. LEGO Racers is almost certainly set up this way as well. I can't think of any video games that even appear to have level definitions in the executable itself. It's not practical. That all assuming that we even have to bother. A Saffire employee said that all you have to do is edit the save file to get around the major bugs.

OK, if the bug appears in one spot, it might be in the data files, but I doubt it.

Nah, no one is talking about decompiling the executable (or at least, not to my knowledge). You're right that we've assumed the bug lies in the data files, but I think that's an adequate assumption, given the nature of the bug: It only appears in one spot. There are a number of ways in which we could get around the bug, ranging from simply editing the save file to let you skip the room to more invasive things like adjusting the collision layer in the 3D files. That's another clear assumption, as you'd be right to point out, but one way or another, a hard-coded kill layer or something like that seems at least equally likely to a collision layer in the 3D file that was moved too high. I mean, we could argue about that all day, but we won't know until we try. When it comes down to it, though, .exe decompilation is illegal, and we're not proposing that. Please try not to sound pretentious; JMMB, myself and the rest have outside programming experience, too. I think our goals may be misrepresented by people who aren't as clear as to what will or won't be possible, but those of us who have mucked around in the data stuff that we've already seen largely share your point of view.

I know there are other people here who have programming experience It's just LoMN is far and away more complex than anything I've seen in FCG or anywhere else here, and fixing it without access to the source code is a huge undertaking. Which is why I suggested simply making a better fangame, instead of going through all this trouble fixing a game we probably will never legally have access to.

[-Takua-]

Fair enough. I think most of our desires to find this game are of the more compulsive, pack-rat variety, rather than to actually play a good game. I for one am actually assuming it's a pretty bad game! (After all, it was made 10 years ago by a company that later went out of business...)

[BULiK]

No offense, but I think everyone's attempts here at making a high-quality Bionicle fangame has failed due to a bad choice of tools. There is a much better free 3D engine than Unity, and it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX, not to mention it's open-source. I'll PM Black Six soon to see if it's notable enough to be able to be linked from FCG (which it should be - a very big media company uses it for their MMO games).

did he say that was ok? and you could always ask lego, i mean, SERIOUSLY, what are they going to do about it other than rub it in our faces? nothing. and most of it is probably too old to salvage anything from it, and bionicle sets are dead, so what do they have to lose?

[-Takua-]

and you could always ask lego, i mean, SERIOUSLY, what are they going to do about it other than rub it in our faces? nothing. and most of it is probably too old to salvage anything from it, and bionicle sets are dead, so what do they have to lose?

Someone did ask and they said no. IIRC it was a pretty boilerplate legal response. Maybe GregF asked for us? I don't remember what the scenario was exactly, but it was established pretty early on that Lego wasn't OK with the release of the game. If you want I can probably dig up a link.

[Bambi]

Legends of Mata Nui..I forgot all about this. D:

[UltraHau]

No offense, but I think everyone's attempts here at making a high-quality Bionicle fangame has failed due to a bad choice of tools. There is a much better free 3D engine than Unity, and it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX, not to mention it's open-source. I'll PM Black Six soon to see if it's notable enough to be able to be linked from FCG (which it should be - a very big media company uses it for their MMO games).

did he say that was ok? and you could always ask lego, i mean, SERIOUSLY, what are they going to do about it other than rub it in our faces? nothing. and most of it is probably too old to salvage anything from it, and bionicle sets are dead, so what do they have to lose?

Yes, Black Six said yes. For the record, the engine is Panda3D, jointly developed by Disney and CMU. (Mentioning Disney is okay, right?) It's completely free - you can even make money from a game you make with it, and you don't have to pay them anything Also, it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX, so if a Bionicle game was made with it, everyone could play it

[BULiK]

thats a awesome idea! and is it easier than unity? and you can get payed :Dthats good motivation

and you could always ask lego, i mean, SERIOUSLY, what are they going to do about it other than rub it in our faces? nothing. and most of it is probably too old to salvage anything from it, and bionicle sets are dead, so what do they have to lose?

Someone did ask and they said no. IIRC it was a pretty boilerplate legal response. Maybe GregF asked for us? I don't remember what the scenario was exactly, but it was established pretty early on that Lego wasn't OK with the release of the game. If you want I can probably dig up a link.

can you dig a link? because when this happened, will make a big difference in this conversation