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Was Karzahni Really Evil

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From what i can make out he want really that evil. His job was to fix broken Matoran. He couldn't cope with the huge amount of Matoran so they stayed there and never fixed. Can some one name me some things that mad him evil. Or is he not meant to be that evil?


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He wishes to conquer the world?I think that make him evil...


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He wishes to conquer the world?I think that make him evil...
What does he want to do once he takes over it? Sorry Im not an expert on the Bionicle Story

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he's pretty much an insane guy who held a bunch of matoran as prisonersnow that's pretty evil
Didnt he turn evil afterwards. I think he did a pretty nice thing offering to fix the matoran. Maybe he was to proud to send back the matoran becuase his brother was a cool guy and he didnt want to feel bad becuase he couldnt cope. Maybe he retaliation of concurring the world was a retaliation from him believing was small compared to his brother. Sorry Im shooting blind here, I have no idea what Im talking about. Maybe I should take up psychology

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Actually, he "just" wanted the power of Mata Nui...For more information, see on BS01 : http://biosector01.c...Karzahni_(Being)


Keep in mind that if Star Trek fans had, as a group, said, "No point in talking about this anymore, it's never going to come back," it never WOULD have come back.

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Actually, he "just" wanted the power of Mata Nui...For more information, see on BS01 : http://biosector01.c...Karzahni_(Being)
Thank you greatly. I will research on this and come back with my analysis. Hmmm. I might start doing this in a big way. I will take villains and try and empathize with them.

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Karzahni didn't seem to bad in his early days, I think, since all he really did was fight with his "brother" Arthaka over the Mask of Creation. He lost, but still got his own realm to run that whole Matoran repair shop. Too bad it eventually was reduced to a horrible wasteland of slave labor and fear. I mean, the Matoran are only semi-fixed, they are forced to forget their old lives so that no one will know of Karzahni's failure, he uses his mask to show people terrifying possible futures, and he eventually runs off to conquer other lands just because he craves real power. Sounds evil to me.

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I think it was more than he was cruel, bitter, and jealous than evil. His main purpose was to fix "broken" matoran so they could work better, but not having the Mask of Creation, or really any experience whatsoever with rebuilding matoran, leading to his poor work, of which he blamed on anything else but himself, and just kept the matoran there, never letting them free. It could be assumed he blames Artahka for his poor workmanship, and let that out with his cruel treatment of his "subjects"Also, he had no knowledge of the outside world other then that Matoran were sent to him, and that his brother inhabited another island. Thinking himself to be one of the most powerful beings in the known universe, he probably decided it was his right to conquer the world, starting with the six pesky matoran that escaped him....


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Well the first thing to do if you have a question like this is to ask "what is evil?"As I defined it on my blog, here: Good and Evil: Points of View?:

"Good" people are more self-LESS than selfish, wanting the good of others above themselves. Nobody's perfect at this of course, but that's the idea. Good guys don't backstab each other (or rather, when they do, they aren't being good).Evil is self-ISH. Evil beings want everything for themselves above others. They use minions and allies when they need them, but as soon as they don't, they will backstab the heck out of 'em. Again, most of us have aspects of this in us, which is why humans aren't truly one or the other. But it's, again, the basic idea of evil.The above differences simply are not arguable. What's arguable is whether the uses of the word "evil" and "good" are always used accurately. Often they aren't. But that doesn't change the fact that good and evil mean real things.
Was what Karzahni did selfish? Certainly! If he's a bad repairman, he should come clean and admit it, not try to hide it and imprison people, forcing them to work in horrible slave jobs for the rest of their lives, and then go around trying to seek his own selfish agenda. He should find what he IS good at, even if it's not as grandious as the jobs the Great Beings tried to give him, and humbly do good at that.He's simply not as evil as some others. :)

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I would agree with most of the other people said: he isn't necessarily evil, he was just driven insane by jealousy. He can't really be blamed either, I'm pretty sure most people would go insane if they had to live where he did.

Edited by Byased

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Well the first thing to do if you have a question like this is to ask "what is evil?"As I defined it on my blog, here: Good and Evil: Points of View?:
"Good" people are more self-LESS than selfish, wanting the good of others above themselves. Nobody's perfect at this of course, but that's the idea. Good guys don't backstab each other (or rather, when they do, they aren't being good).Evil is self-ISH. Evil beings want everything for themselves above others. They use minions and allies when they need them, but as soon as they don't, they will backstab the heck out of 'em. Again, most of us have aspects of this in us, which is why humans aren't truly one or the other. But it's, again, the basic idea of evil.The above differences simply are not arguable. What's arguable is whether the uses of the word "evil" and "good" are always used accurately. Often they aren't. But that doesn't change the fact that good and evil mean real things.
Was what Karzahni did selfish? Certainly! If he's a bad repairman, he should come clean and admit it, not try to hide it and imprison people, forcing them to work in horrible slave jobs for the rest of their lives, and then go around trying to seek his own selfish agenda. He should find what he IS good at, even if it's not as grandious as the jobs the Great Beings tried to give him, and humbly do good at that.He's simply not as evil as some others. :)
Ah, but did he have evil intentions when he was being selfish. Imagine this okay: You have a brother who is always rewarded and every one thinks is great. No one really likes or trusts you. You try to do a nice thing (Fix matorans) so people like you. You bite of more than you can chew. Because you are so proud to admit defeat you keep them there. What you are doing is selfish, but your not doing it intentionally to be selfish are you? A lot of people would say that its your intentions that define whether you are good or evil, not you actions.

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Well the first thing to do if you have a question like this is to ask "what is evil?"As I defined it on my blog, here: Good and Evil: Points of View?:
"Good" people are more self-LESS than selfish, wanting the good of others above themselves. Nobody's perfect at this of course, but that's the idea. Good guys don't backstab each other (or rather, when they do, they aren't being good).Evil is self-ISH. Evil beings want everything for themselves above others. They use minions and allies when they need them, but as soon as they don't, they will backstab the heck out of 'em. Again, most of us have aspects of this in us, which is why humans aren't truly one or the other. But it's, again, the basic idea of evil.The above differences simply are not arguable. What's arguable is whether the uses of the word "evil" and "good" are always used accurately. Often they aren't. But that doesn't change the fact that good and evil mean real things.
Was what Karzahni did selfish? Certainly! If he's a bad repairman, he should come clean and admit it, not try to hide it and imprison people, forcing them to work in horrible slave jobs for the rest of their lives, and then go around trying to seek his own selfish agenda. He should find what he IS good at, even if it's not as grandious as the jobs the Great Beings tried to give him, and humbly do good at that.He's simply not as evil as some others. :)
Ah, but did he have evil intentions when he was being selfish. Imagine this okay: You have a brother who is always rewarded and every one thinks is great. No one really likes or trusts you. You try to do a nice thing (Fix matorans) so people like you. You bite of more than you can chew. Because you are so proud to admit defeat you keep them there. What you are doing is selfish, but your not doing it intentionally to be selfish are you? A lot of people would say that its your intentions that define whether you are good or evil, not you actions.
How do you define evil intentions apart from selfishness?Besides, if he was defeated by biting off more than he could chew, then he should have admitted to it and got help. He suffered from bitter pride, desperately trying to cover up his own failure. He lived in secrecy and brainwashed Matoran. None of these I would consider good things. These things sprang from pride and fear, really. Pride in himself and fear of being rejected as a failure. His intent of saving himself from failure was at the expense of all the Matoran sent to him for repair. He valued himself above them; thus he was selfish. And he might have been trying to help by repairing the Matoran originally, but by not admitting his inability to do so, he wasn't helping them at all. The first intent (fix the Matoran so they don't get destroyed) was noble; the second intention (brainwash and send away Matoran in order to make myself look okay) was not. So Karzahni was evil, at least by that definition, which I'm not going to argue with in terms of Bionicle.
A lot of people would say that its your intentions that define whether you are good or evil, not you actions.
But we aren't talking about "A lot of people". But anyway, I don't believe this argument is relevant here - Karazahni intended to do bad things and then he did them and got bad results. He might have intended to do good things in the beginning, but then he intended to do harm to the Matoran he was supposed to repair, causing bad results. Thus he was evil. Edited by fishers64

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Not evil, per se, intentionally, but in several senses, yeah. Mind you, he turned out completely wicked and demented. He went super insane and the parameters of his job kinda fell to pieces, which explained all of the non-fixed Matoran.


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Ah, but did he have evil intentions when he was being selfish. Imagine this okay: You have a brother who is always rewarded and every one thinks is great. No one really likes or trusts you.
Why would people distrust him unless he had given them reason to? But this is a hypothetical as far as I know; there's no evidence this is true of Karzahni. After all, if nobody trusted him he wouldn't have been assigned that job. Keep in mind too that the GBs did this assigning without even knowing that sapience had been achieved. Probably there was not yet a culture or many people to be around to trust or not trust. :)
You try to do a nice thing (Fix matorans) so people like you.
Did he try? Personally I believe that although personal talents and weaknesses are important, if we really want to do something that needs done, if we have time and resources to do it, and we want to, we will find a way. He could have delegated parts of the task to those who were more skilled for example and simply been an overseer, or he could have thought harder about how to repair well even if it wasn't the job he really wanted, because he knew it was the right thing to do. More likely he did not care about doing a good job and that is why he didn't.
You bite of more than you can chew. Because you are so proud to admit defeat you keep them there.
Well, that's it right there -- because of pride, all evil results. Pride is at the root of all other evil. Also, I think some people get a sort of exaggerated feeling about that word, "evil" and think that normal people, even good guys, don't do evil things. But anything wrong that is done is an evil.I think what you're trying to ask is, did he choose to devote himself to evil over doing good? That is, a good guy is someone who still does the wrong (selfish, prideful) thing sometimes, but is trying to do the right thing, at least when it matters more, etc. A bad guy may do some good things, and have some good intentions, but if overall they have devoted themselves to pride, to selfishness, etc. then in plain English they are evil. :) If not, then what is the point of asking if someone is evil? If Karzahni is ruled out of that then nobody could be evil, right? So then all you've done is redefine the word, and under the normal definition he's still evil. Does that help? :)
What you are doing is selfish, but your not doing it intentionally to be selfish are you?
Selfish by definition is about intentions. How could you have an action that is selfish without selfish intentions? If you didn't have that intention the action wouldn't be selfish. It would just be an accident. I don't see how you accidently enslave people, cover up your actions, and try to conquer lol. Accidently doing a bad job, yes. I'm not saying he would be evil for that.Some actions cannot be done without bad intentions, at least under most circumstances and I don't see how these would be exceptions. Edited by bonesiii

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Ah, but did he have evil intentions when he was being selfish. Imagine this okay: You have a brother who is always rewarded and every one thinks is great. No one really likes or trusts you.
Why would people distrust him unless he had given them reason to? But this is a hypothetical as far as I know; there's no evidence this is true of Karzahni. After all, if nobody trusted him he wouldn't have been assigned that job. Keep in mind too that the GBs did this assigning without even knowing that sapience had been achieved. Probably there was not yet a culture or many people to be around to trust or not trust. :)
You try to do a nice thing (Fix matorans) so people like you.
Did he try? Personally I believe that although personal talents and weaknesses are important, if we really want to do something that needs done, if we have time and resources to do it, and we want to, we will find a way. He could have delegated parts of the task to those who were more skilled for example and simply been an overseer, or he could have thought harder about how to repair well even if it wasn't the job he really wanted, because he knew it was the right thing to do. More likely he did not care about doing a good job and that is why he didn't.
You bite of more than you can chew. Because you are so proud to admit defeat you keep them there.
Well, that's it right there -- because of pride, all evil results. Pride is at the root of all other evil. Also, I think some people get a sort of exaggerated feeling about that word, "evil" and think that normal people, even good guys, don't do evil things. But anything wrong that is done is an evil.I think what you're trying to ask is, did he choose to devote himself to evil over doing good? That is, a good guy is someone who still does the wrong (selfish, prideful) thing sometimes, but is trying to do the right thing, at least when it matters more, etc. A bad guy may do some good things, and have some good intentions, but if overall they have devoted themselves to pride, to selfishness, etc. then in plain English they are evil. :) If not, then what is the point of asking if someone is evil? If Karzahni is ruled out of that then nobody could be evil, right? So then all you've done is redefine the word, and under the normal definition he's still evil. Does that help? :)
What you are doing is selfish, but your not doing it intentionally to be selfish are you?
Selfish by definition is about intentions. How could you have an action that is selfish without selfish intentions? If you didn't have that intention the action wouldn't be selfish. It would just be an accident. I don't see how you accidently enslave people, cover up your actions, and try to conquer lol. Accidently doing a bad job, yes. I'm not saying he would be evil for that.Some actions cannot be done without bad intentions, at least under most circumstances and I don't see how these would be exceptions.
I think youre right mainly. I have to admire the writers of Bionicle on creating 3-D Characters though, rather than just making an all out evil guy. Infact Karzanhi may look like that at first, until you look twice and you can flesh him out.

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I don't think Karzhani began as evil, just a little creepy. Eventually, when he found out that he couldn't adequately fix matoran, he was overcome with guilt and slowly descended into madness. When he entered Mahri Nui, he battled with Lesovikk, which made the Lego company brand him as a villain. He also fought Makuta Teridax, though not alongside the Toa, so he can't really be called a hero. (hero might be a stretch, good guy, maybe.) Plus, while on the island of Karzhani, he virtually tortured the Matoran that later became Toa Inika. Also, he took Jaller's mask, which was Lhikan's mask of shielding. So, in my opinion, that makes him a pretty bad guy. He didn't know, though, so I won't put too much blame on him. When Lesovikk and friends chained him to a rock, he was completely mad. So, in conclusion, more mad and demented rather than evil.


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Nobody thinks themselves as evil.Five bucks says that all that time, he thought he was doing his job to the best effect, he just lost his way.It's like how you're trying to build, draw, or write something. If you loose heart, and become more preoccupied in something else, you're going to forget about it. You become more focused on other things that interest you.That's how I view Karzahni anyway...

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He was originally intended to be good, but he went bad when Arthaka got the Mask of Creation.
Could he see alternate futures as well? Wouldnt that send you a bit insane?

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He was originally intended to be good, but he went bad when Arthaka got the Mask of Creation.
Could he see alternate futures as well? Wouldnt that send you a bit insane?
Yeah, that was because he didn't get the Mask of Creation. See, Arthaka and Karzhani could easily have had their places switched... Edited by knuckles chaotix

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Yeah, and one huge alternate future he probably spent a lot of time looking at was how much better his life would have been if he'd taken Artakha's place. Jealousy with actual backing in a sense. Not that that justifies it, but yeah.

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Yeah, and one huge alternate future he probably spent a lot of time looking at was how much better his life would have been if he'd taken Artakha's place. Jealousy with actual backing in a sense. Not that that justifies it, but yeah.
According to the law insanity justifies a lot of things. He may have also done one where he let the matoran go. Maybe it worked out really bad for him. I mean he must of done an alternate future of that right?

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I was talking about jealousy as a choice, before that drove him insane (if in fact it did). Also, it's not that simple. Someone can be both insane and evil, if they're making conscious choices for evil actions but insanity has helplessly driven other actions.Also, it can be argued that all evil (selfishness, pride, etc.) is a form of insanity, since it is counterproductive in the long run to the individual. Just not to the degree of insanity that the law (here in America anyways; I don't know which laws you are referring to per se) refers to.And no, he need not have looked at that, but that's a good point. We can't know what he did and didn't look at.But one plausible scenario is that he latched onto jealousy of Artakha, and focused on that, which was an evil choice, which could have led to other evil choices, selfish ones. Due to pride he refused to admit he was wrong, and roasted in this psychological mess until it eventually drove him insane (perhaps :P).This theoretical insanity may have locked him into not being able to look at good alternate futures, being already convinced it wouldn't be good. It's actually a very common psychological problem in real life that is not usually called insanity, that people become convinced one route of investigation can't produce good results to justify refusing to do that investigation; I see it all the time. If he really was driven insane, then you could easily expect this times a thousand.That would help explain why he started to use the alternate visions as a weapon of sorts, as he did when the Matoran that would become the Inika visited his realm.If the above scenario is the case, he still would likely have had to make conscious evil choices that would lead him down the path of insanity. Insanity justifying an action can only work in reverse; the insanity leads to the choices.I've used your wording of that idea above, but really the law is not saying the action is okay (justified) if it is caused by insanity. For example, if someone had a literally uncontrollable urge to kill due to insanity and this could not be cured, you wouldn't say, "Oh, then it's okay to let him go free, 'cuz it's insanity." No, the action is still wrong even if it's caused by insanity. So justified isn't really the best word. (If any law does say that then it's a bad law; rather the point of the "insanity defense" is supposed to be to identify which kind of treatment is to be used; traditional jail as punishment or a psychological institution/jail to try to cure the insanity, etc.)I know whatcha mean though; you're wondering if insanity came first before consciously choosing evil. But I think it's still not really established that he was insane to begin with. Greg has confirmed that for some characters like Mutran, but has he for Karzahni?Also, what evidence is there that coming clean, etc. -- the stuff I said in my first post here -- would necessarily lead to a negative outcome for him? I'm talking not about one that a prideful, selfish being thinks is demeaning, but one that even a humble being would not dare face, like perhaps being killed. Bionicle is full of heroes who made mistakes (Lesovikk) and villains who were accepted later to help do good (Miserix). If at the very beginning especially he simply said, "look, this isn't working, I'm not good enough at this alone, let's find solutions to this problem" he never would have been seen as a villain. Just someone who was assigned a job, but wasn't able to carry it out.Arguably if he took the delegating tasks route he could end up better off than before as he'd be a ruler of an important and respected institution in the Matoran Universe. :) He could have been an overseer of repairs rather than the sole repairer himself, with many more people answering to him, and willingly so.Maybe some of those alternate visions would show a negative outcome but certainly not all. In fact having that power should have helped him guide his actions towards the best outcome.The one way I can see the "insanity defense" is that the GBs who assigned the task didn't even know he was sapient, or anyone else, so they must not have been paying close enough attention, so we can't be sure he wasn't insane from the start as a glitch. Still, it seems unlikely they would have picked a glitching person for the role. :shrugs:

Edited by bonesiii

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I was talking about jealousy as a choice, before that drove him insane (if in fact it did). Also, it's not that simple. Someone can be both insane and evil, if they're making conscious choices for evil actions but insanity has helplessly driven other actions.Also, it can be argued that all evil (selfishness, pride, etc.) is a form of insanity, since it is counterproductive in the long run to the individual. Just not to the degree of insanity that the law (here in America anyways; I don't know which laws you are referring to per se) refers to.And no, he need not have looked at that, but that's a good point. We can't know what he did and didn't look at.But one plausible scenario is that he latched onto jealousy of Artakha, and focused on that, which was an evil choice, which could have led to other evil choices, selfish ones. Due to pride he refused to admit he was wrong, and roasted in this psychological mess until it eventually drove him insane (perhaps :P).This theoretical insanity may have locked him into not being able to look at good alternate futures, being already convinced it wouldn't be good. It's actually a very common psychological problem in real life that is not usually called insanity, that people become convinced one route of investigation can't produce good results to justify refusing to do that investigation; I see it all the time. If he really was driven insane, then you could easily expect this times a thousand.That would help explain why he started to use the alternate visions as a weapon of sorts, as he did when the Matoran that would become the Inika visited his realm.If the above scenario is the case, he still would likely have had to make conscious evil choices that would lead him down the path of insanity. Insanity justifying an action can only work in reverse; the insanity leads to the choices.I've used your wording of that idea above, but really the law is not saying the action is okay (justified) if it is caused by insanity. For example, if someone had a literally uncontrollable urge to kill due to insanity and this could not be cured, you wouldn't say, "Oh, then it's okay to let him go free, 'cuz it's insanity." No, the action is still wrong even if it's caused by insanity. So justified isn't really the best word. (If any law does say that then it's a bad law; rather the point of the "insanity defense" is supposed to be to identify which kind of treatment is to be used; traditional jail as punishment or a psychological institution/jail to try to cure the insanity, etc.)I know whatcha mean though; you're wondering if insanity came first before consciously choosing evil. But I think it's still not really established that he was insane to begin with. Greg has confirmed that for some characters like Mutran, but has he for Karzahni?Also, what evidence is there that coming clean, etc. -- the stuff I said in my first post here -- would necessarily lead to a negative outcome for him? I'm talking not about one that a prideful, selfish being thinks is demeaning, but one that even a humble being would not dare face, like perhaps being killed. Bionicle is full of heroes who made mistakes (Lesovikk) and villains who were accepted later to help do good (Miserix). If at the very beginning especially he simply said, "look, this isn't working, I'm not good enough at this alone, let's find solutions to this problem" he never would have been seen as a villain. Just someone who was assigned a job, but wasn't able to carry it out.Arguably if he took the delegating tasks route he could end up better off than before as he'd be a ruler of an important and respected institution in the Matoran Universe. :) He could have been an overseer of repairs rather than the sole repairer himself, with many more people answering to him, and willingly so.Maybe some of those alternate visions would show a negative outcome but certainly not all. In fact having that power should have helped him guide his actions towards the best outcome.The one way I can see the "insanity defense" is that the GBs who assigned the task didn't even know he was sapient, or anyone else, so they must not have been paying close enough attention, so we can't be sure he wasn't insane from the start as a glitch. Still, it seems unlikely they would have picked a glitching person for the role. :shrugs:
Actually werent the GBs all kind of stupid. Even Mata Nui to an extent. He was just like "Yeh get on with it" even though it eas his universe. Granted he had other issues to attend to, but isnt that kind of selfish. Sorry Im grasping at straws here hahahaha

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Hmm, what Bonesiii said about the Kanohi Olisi made me wonder if Karzanhi ever looked at what his life would be like if he started being good or nice (or if he invented the Fing-longer).


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Well, about Mata Nui, it is a confirmed character flaw he had, yes. One of the big things that Bionicle does is tell stories about good people who have character flaws (like Kopaka's over-aloofness or Tahu's temper) and through the course of the story they learn that there's a better way. Mata Nui learned this in the 2009-2010 stories, that he needed to care about these beings. :) His mistake in this case was understandable; much like we don't care about individual cells in our bodies much (and just as Tahu's natural tendency to be tempermental was understandable too, etc.) but it was still something he needed to get over.About the GBs, it is baffling how they could pick Artahka and Karzahni for important jobs and other things they did early on without ever noticing sapience had been achieved, but then, I'm not sure exactly when it was, nor why it became universal to all others. Perhaps it simply hadn't yet shown its results yet, similar to (though in a good way) diseases that don't show their symptoms right away (well, with the evil characters I suppose it IS a disease Mata Nui had. Or maybe it hadn't happened yet.I don't think GBs being stupid works as the explanation though, because they had to be extremely brilliant to create this advanced giant robot, artificial protodermis, etc. They did make mistakes, though, like the Baterra. But in this case I think they just never imagined they could have made sapient artificial life, so they didn't think to look for it.

Edited by bonesiii

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You have to be very careful when discussing morality, especially when it comes to the people you discuss it with. There are some who take the Objective Morality route who believe that terms such as "good" and "evil" most definitely exist and are defined (sorry if this was not your intent bonesiii, but the example you gave above and then the writer claiming the definitions could not be argued with is objective morality). Then there is the in the middle option of Moral Relativism, where morals are not objective and depend on the person you are asking, but no one morality is correct. The last major position is Moral Nihilism, which is the position that morality does not exist at all. Taking these into account...Objective: The story presents him as someone who is usually against the protagonists, given that stories usually give off the same morals throughout, let us assume that the "morality/karma system" labels him as objectively evil.Relativism: Whether or not he is actually evil depends on who you ask. because hardly anyone (at most) thinks of themselves as evil, there is a lot of leeway here.Nihilism: He isn't good/evil/whatever since moral distinctions and morals in general do not exist.Personally I go by a sort of Relativist and possibly Nihilist hybrid, so if you ask me then no, he is not evil.

Edited by Proud Stigma

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Well, Proud Stigma, as I said, such definitions of morals (or lack of existence of them) are just that -- definitions of words, which doesn't change that in plain English, the words do have meanings (based on selfishness or self-less-ness, as I said in that blog entry). A definition of the word that ignores that distinction does not change that the distinction exists; that different people act with different motives.I don't personally see the point in defining the word "evil" so that it has no meaning and therefore never applies. Words exist to give labels to existing things; there is a real thing that the plain English term describes, so it's best to just use it. :) And a topic asking if a Bionicle character is evil should primarily look at how Bionicle defines good and evil, and we do have canon definitions of it that Greg has given; for example he's confirmed that Makuta (Teridax) is evil, so the word definately has a meaning here. :)And as I pointed out also in that entry, Bionicle especially defined evil as selfishness with the Piraka. So my reasoning in that entry was not just my own philosophy but summing up the canon way it's defined in Bionicle. :) If I were to write it in my own words I might focus more on pride, but Bionicle doesn't emphasize that much compared to selfishness (in a sense they are the same thing though).That said, it's useful to point out the different definitions and to say you personally prefer something different. ^_^ I would have to say, though, that by the definitions you gave of the latter two, they are talking about something different that isn't considering the question of "evil by the normal definition", which still exists regardless. They are most useful when different groups really are defining the terms subjectively, which does happen, and in those cases those two definitions may actually apply logically. :)For example, the Matoran resistance attacking the Toa Nuva on Voya Nui. By the objective definition they were both good, but the key is that the Matoran didn't realize the Toa weren't fake Toa like the Piraka, so they were labeling the Toa as "evil" (they didn't necessarily use the term but this was how they were thinking). In that situation, a Relativistic criticism could have been made of their thinking, to point out that they are just assuming the other side is evil.Although still it would be better just to inform them the Toa were good, and they did realize this later. :)Anywho, food for thought. ^_^

Edited by bonesiii

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For a better understanding of our not-so-fine-minded friend, check out my epic, linked to in my sig. There will be more later depicting his feelings, thoughts, experiences and such that led to him becoming the way we saw him after he left his realm. But to give a bit of my own opinion, he was driven by hate and jealosy, and ambition, to rule the universe, which does rather make him evil.


http://www.bzpower.c...?showtopic=5700 - My new epic revealing the life of the interesting character we all wish we could have known better before he left us, Karzahni.

 

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For a better understanding of our not-so-fine-minded friend, check out my epic, linked to in my sig. There will be more later depicting his feelings, thoughts, experiences and such that led to him becoming the way we saw him after he left his realm. But to give a bit of my own opinion, he was driven by hate and jealosy, and ambition, to rule the universe, which does rather make him evil.
Oh sweet. Thanks bro!

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@ BonesiiiWhat you wrote about morals implies you have a sort of existential quality about you, I like that.As for "evil by normal definition" it is not really considered by them (unless, as you pointed out, at least two different moralities are compared, as well as other possibly scenarios, and for some that varies, but anyway...) because to them it is not important, or is meaningless entirely. Or it is also because "normal" is subjective in this case. However in the Bionicle universe though, it is a relevant question since an objective morality was established by the writer, Greg, as you have also said.

Edited by Proud Stigma

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^Bionicle doesn't define good and evil that way, though. It seems to accept that bitterness leads to evil intentions which leads to evil actions, which is exactly what happens in real life IMO. Good intentions can lead to good results or evil results, but evil intentions never turn into good results unless there is another being with good intentions to twist it around. And I would argue (although this is just my opinion) that all evil qualities inherently lead to evil actions and evil results, and if there is that jealousy or hatred or selfishness, circumstances will eventually drag it out into the real world in evil actions and evil deeds. Logically, then, I'm looking at some pretty bad results - Matoran enslaved, weakened, etc. Theoretically, then, those results could have came from good or bad intentions, but if a being has good intentions, those will appear in other areas. For example, Tahu has done bad things - quarreling with his teammates, burning trees - but he has also done good things, like helping the group, saving Takua from himself, and so on. Karzahni did not do any obviously good things in story, and so by the Bionicle definitions of things he is evil.

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I honestly don't think anybody is truly evil. Nobody does something simply to be evil, they do it either because they think that what they are doing is a good thing, or because they are crazy. I think Karzahni was leaning towards the crazy end of the spectrum.-don't touch my pocket protector


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Karzahni... was also definitely very selfish, although the way I see it selfishness isn't evil but merely one aspect leading on the path to evil. Valuing one's self more than others is no crime--deep down everyone has survival instincts that aren't easily ignored
I was hoping this would come up. :) What I said there is indeed a simplification; when I say that good is self-less, I don't mean that good guys ignore the importance of survival, or even comfort for themselves, but they balance their priorities right so that the good of others is never sacrificed just for superificial 'good' for the self. Sometimes a good guy must do something another good person does not like or that inconveniences them for example.As for valuing the self more than others, that's an interesting idea to consider.On the one hand, actually believing the self to be superior to others in some general sense is wrong; elitism. On the other hand, some situations, especially those heroes might have to face, might pit the survival of the hero against the survival of one 'denizen' (for example) whereas if the hero makes sure they survive they might be able to help others later. Still, even there it's questionable whether that would be good to leave that person to die; that sort of thinking can be a slippery slope where self-sacrifice can always be avoided on the slim possibility that later there will be an even larger group to die for.And of course dying to save others is an extreme example, and things can get even murkier on the lesser examples, heh.One of the points raised earlier seemed to imply that Karzahni might have seen visions that doing as I suggested he should have; coming clean that he wasn't good at this job and delegating or even giving the job to someone else, that if he did that people might be unforgiving and he could be in trouble. I don't think this would actually happen in Bionicle; the Matoran and Toa and such are understanding, in general, of mistakes, and certainly it's not like they'd kill him over it lol. But hypothetically if that was the case, then Karzahni might have been justified in at least hiding that he was doing a bad job.Beyond that though I think his other actions are pretty clearly wrong no matter what.
While selfishness and selflessness are definitely aspects that contribute to good and evil decisions, they are neither an end nor a means. It is the actions one makes that define good and evil.
I don't know that that works, though. Evil generally implies a mental state, an attitude, intention, motives, etc. doesn't it? How do you define action?For example, killing could be called an evil action, right? But what if someone accidently kills someone else? Does that make the action evil under your definition?I think evil is primarily a matter of the heart (the subconscious, the choice we make of what to devote ourselves to). From the heart come our intended actions, and even some accidental ones if we're not trying hard enough to avoid doing wrong. If the heart is evil, but someone just accidently fails to commit any evil acts, that doesn't make them good. Make sense? Edited by bonesiii

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Yeah, and one huge alternate future he probably spent a lot of time looking at was how much better his life would have been if he'd taken Artakha's place. Jealousy with actual backing in a sense. Not that that justifies it, but yeah.
That is a brilliant point, bones. I need to write a fanfic about that now. *jots down reminder*Kudos to the topic starter for facilitating some examination of Karz's character... I always liked him as a villain, but I'd never really thought about his sympathetic side (small though it may be).

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I see your example of an accidental killing: I think murder is definite an evil action, intended or not.
Well, part of the definition of "murder" includes intent, though. Probably just a nitpick, since you went on to clarify that, heh. Murder means intended killing, generally planned, while manslaughter and others refers to less intended things.
I also think that, even if deep down someone has the tendencies or urge to place the self over others and cause harm in order to reach their ends, there is always the ability to resist. I'm nowhere near eloquent enough to state exactly how I'm thinking (which is why I stay out of S&T, and philosophy courses for that matter) but I guess if I had to put it into simple terms it would be like this: The morality of a person (or being in fantastic stories) is defined by their actions and not by their inclinations. When one's own moral code is skewed by evils within the self--whether through greed, insanity, pride, selfishness, or something of the sort--they will make evil actions and are therefore fully or at least more responsible than someone who caused evil unintentionally or with the intent to do less damage.
I think I mostly agree, but in some cases there is a problem with making the actions what define good or evil. Some actions are either good or evil depending on the circumstances.To take repairing someone poorly for example. If Karzahni hated a particular Matoran he might repair that Matoran poorly to spite him. But if he honestly wants what's best for the Matoran, he might want to repair them well but due to lack of talent fail. The same action in the first case is clearly evil while in the second case it's more incompetent (this isn't considering the other things he later did like trying to hide it, etc.).I wonder incidently what his attitude was to the Matoran. Did he want to repair them, selflessly? I get the sense he didn't care about them but cared only about the prestige he hoped to get by having such an important job. Nor did he likely hate them, but it's possible he might have some kind of resentment towards Matoran in general for some reason. :shrugs:Anyways, many actions can apparently only be evil, yes, such as enslaving the Matoran or trying to conquer, so I will agree that in those cases the actions define his evilness. But I think it's actually that the actions imply an evil mental state, and it's that state that makes him evil, if that makes any sense. The actions are symptoms of the evil that is in his heart.That said, certainly the actions and their consequences are more important to the victims than his mental state. A harmless evil being wouldn't be a direct threat, but one that acts on his evil intentions is dangerous.

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