Original Plans

[Toatapio Nuva]

Even before the Faber files came out, but especially after that, I've become more and more interested in the original story plans of Bionicle. Main reason probably is that post 2006, I think Lego made huge mistakes and managed to utterly ruin the story. This topic is as much a theory of what was supposed to be as well as getting ideas from you guys.One of the most interesting original plans is Karda Nui. The Toa Inika were supposed to be featured that year, in the final showdown against the Brotherhood of Makuta in an effort to "ignite" the heart of Mata Nui and thus save his life.I've been studying the Karda Nui-sketches of Christian Faber and think I have an accurate theory/guess on how the story should've proceeded. First I'll list some things about 2007, before the Karda Nui story, that were also supposed to be different from the final version.2007

• The Toa Mahri were supposed to have diving suits of some kind. They were not supposed to be transformed physically into waterbreathing creatures
• The Toa Terrain Crawler was probably supposed to have a larger role as a submarine
• After the Cord was destroyed, the Toa Mahri would most likely use the Toa Terrain Crawler to outrace the moving island of Voya Nui to reach the giant waterfall, or somehow travel with the island itself

2008

• The Toa Mahri arrive in Karda Nui and begin falling with the Toa Terrain Crawler, which hasn't been designed for flight.
• The Toa find new suits of armor inside the vehicle, ones which enable flight. It would be only logical, since Axonn gave them the crawler, and he knew the Toa would have to fly later on in Karda Nui. Therefore flying suits would be stored in the vehicle.
• Note that the Inika are in posession of the Mask of Life now.
• The Toa escape the falling crawler and find an Av-Matoran village in the middle of a chaos. The Brotherhood of Makuta is attacking them and turning them into Shadow Matoran (to "infect" Mata Nui's heart with shadow or just prevent new Toa of Light from coming into being)
• The Toa battle the Brotherhood and win, somehow, but the Kanohi Ignika is lost during battle, and falls into the swamp below.
• The Toa discuss plans and decide to split into two groups. The other group stays up with the stalactites to help the Av-Matoran, the other group goes down into the swamp to retrieve the Ignika.
• The Toa in the sky battle the Brotherhood of Makuta. Eventually they go down to the swamp as well
• The Ignika is found. A battle ensues over its posession
• The Great Spirit dies and the Toa think they have failed. The Brotherhood seems to let down on their attacks.
• The Toa Inika get inside the Codrex with the mask of life. Inside the Codrex, Matoro sacrifices himself to ressurect the Great Spirit
• The Codrex begins to send energy bolts all around Karda Nui, incinerating everything and evaporating the water of the swamp. The Toa Inika escape with the vehicles found in the Codrex, taking the Ignika with them. Matoro is dead.
• The Toa escape the Codrex in time, while the Brotherhood of Makuta members perish
• The Toa return the mask to Voya Nui and return to Metru Nui as heroes, with late Matoro being the greatest of all

What refers to this kind of story? The multiple blog entries in the Faber files, as well as some things from the story as it ended up being. Oh, and this picture.I'm running out of time on writing this, but I'll update this first post later with how I believe the three-year quest to awaken Mata Nui by the Toa Nuva was supposed to happen. Meanwhile, what do you think about the original 2008? Is this plausible?

[Click]

Another thing that could have possibly happened was that the Makuta of Karda Nui didn't even go there, and instead it was Inika (or Nuva) vs. Shadow Toa, the only confirmed one was Ahkmou. And your theory sounds good, as long as Mata Nui didn't die before they made it to Voya Nui. I like that the Toa Terrain Crawler came back for more of the story.

[Nuparu1995]

Yeah, especially for the Toa Terrain Crawler. Other than that, it was just a set idea. Likely had some sort of story role otherwise.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

This theory makes sense to me. The only thing I'd add to it would be that Teridax would still have taken over the MU. That was part of the original plan, if I'm not mistaken.

[bonesiii]

Some of it does seem to have been the original plans. I think a major thing to add is that, based on the picture you linked, there was not going to be a confusing "dome under the continent's dome", which really was completely unnecessary.From what I understand, what went wrong is that people "above Bionicle", executives and the like, lost sight of the importance of the core heroes to Bionicle; Tahu, etc. and that fans were not just expecting but had been led to believe 2006 would return us to them. The execs apparently thought that since we loved certain of the 2001-3 Matoran, we "wanted to see them become Toa." But I think most people fell in love with those Matoran as Matoran. To Toa-ize these characters sort of seemed to cheapen them in a lot of people's eyes; we liked that they were strong as the little guys.The story did kinda set up for it naturally with the reveal that the Turaga were Matoran, but when we learned the Turaga had been Matoran and then Toa, that was a shocking and exciting reveal, plus we could accept it since we knew the present would return with them still Turaga. The Inika merely built on this formula in the now-expected way, it wasn't innovative anymore, it was cookie-cutter. So instead of trying to be innovate in that case they should have locked into the fan expectation for the story to continue with the Nuva, and allowed the twist of "Mata Nui is dying" to carry it. They tried to pile a not-impressive twist, the Inika, onto a twist fans DID like, which just watered down the good twist.Also, the dying thing would have been better as just one year, 2006. They tried to carry three whole years on that one twist, and it got old by 2007.Set-designwise, the Nuva are associated with their main masks, so I admit that would be problematic, but then they also collected other masks; an explanation could have worked for that. Another problem was that they made the mistake of promising no more transformations for the Nuva. They should never have promised that. I think they mistook the early adjustment people had to make to the idea of transformation for a desire to move on to different characters. But it was always a toyline and so, like with Hero Factory, to keep focusing on the main characters they HAD to keep transforming. I think Bionicle should have made transformation a much more central plot device, like HF's rebuilding, to adjust heroes to new challenges (makes sense, no?). LEGO learned this lesson for HF, but I wish they would have learned it with Bionicle. Also, actually the Turaga flashback should have been just 2004, and the Nuva should have returned in 2005. The Visorak story was kinda cool, but many fans just felt it was unnecessary. Condensing the story more would mean more original fans were with it when it reached the climax of the takeover and final battle, and then LEGO could move on.So the problem to me is not so much that they didn't go with original plans, but that they just weren't as in touch with what the audience naturally wanted. This didn't impress old fans, and it gave no particular reason for new fans to enter into it, and the fanbase fizzled, although slowly over ten years.Basically what I'm saying is the whole Inika/Mahri thing was a mistake from the get-go. It should have been the Toa Mata/Nuva doing these things. Although I will admit fans really latched powerfully onto Matoro's sacrifice, and that one did shock and move us, seemingly. Not sure how that would be handled, other than a Toa Mata dying instead.

Edited July 11, 2012 by bonesiii

[~Shockwave~]

but i like the inika....though i will admit that i think it should have been the original toa. as i believe it was their destiny. right?there destiny was to awaken mata nui, so that would be part of it.

[bonesiii]

I like it too, but I like it less I think than I would have liked the Toa Mata returning. If they had done what I'm suggesting, the idea of the Inika would never occur to us, and we wouldn't have known to miss it, yanno? I think nearly everybody would have instinctively accepted that, okay, we had a year off from the Nuva to tell the Turaga's story, that was fun, now the exciting conclusion is starting -- with the Nuva, as we hoped! Yay! etc. :)Maybe we even would have accepted one year of some favored Matoran becoming heroes after having some more Toa Mata story, so we could have gotten the basic idea of the Inika.Here's an alternate (using hindsight ):2004, Turaga flashbacks, sum up the end as "later we returned and retrieved the rest of the canisters. Not much happened then; some more Vahki fought us, etc. but we got over it."2005, return of Toa Nuva, but in a new form. Ideally, not the Toa Hordika, as those sold poorly, but something more like an improved 2001 style, elbows and knees, but definately the Toa Nuva, having transformed again. Returning to Metru Nui in a darkened state, overrun by Visorak, and some overlord enemy named Sidorak who works for Makuta, and now, thinking Makuta dead, wants to usurp his position. And Roodaka. They fight to reconquer the city so the Matoran can move back in. And win.2006, free poor Turaga Dume from captivity, and he reveals that Mata Nui is not just asleep but dying. Six Matoran are revealed to be destined to be Toa, become the Inika, go to Voya Nui, get the Mask of Life, and Matoro sacrifices himself. I still think many would have problems with these Matoran becoming Toa, but just hypothetically here. Also, by the end of 2006, everybody was certain Matoro would sacrifice himself, so putting it in 2007 really served very little purpose. (In fact all of 2007 just seemed like one long delaying of things we already expected, although with some cool details thrown in.)2007, back to Nuva as they enter the heart, fighting Makuta, restart it, and... takeover, big reveal.After that point there are other problems I'm not going to worry about in this post as that's not really the point of this topic, but yeah. Another possibility, food for thought. :)Edit: Yanno what might have been really cool too is if the Matoran that became Inika were to be heroes withOUT becoming Toa, but perhaps rode little vehicles. That would be the really radical thing to do that might have been more comparable to the Turaga's reveal, making Matoran into canister sets. I think lots of people might have connected to that well, and Matoro still could have been the one to sacrifice.

Edited July 11, 2012 by bonesiii

[~Shockwave~]

or make matoran no one knew int the inika. since they would get their masks switched anyways, why they had to be those six is beyond me.though, honestly, i still think the chronicler is doomed to become a toa. it happened twice.

[bonesiii]

or make matoran no one knew int the inika. since they would get their masks switched anyways, why they had to be those six is beyond me.though, honestly, i still think the chronicler is doomed to become a toa. it happened twice.

Well, all the main-plot Toa were characters from 2001, with the exception of Hahli (as far as I recall), and she was close in 2003. I think that pulling in unknown characters to center the story on would have been rejected by a lot more fans.

[Toa Zaz]

I believe Nuparu was introduced a little later on as well.

[Taipu1]

Edit: Yanno what might have been really cool too is if the Matoran that became Inika were to be heroes withOUT becoming Toa, but perhaps rode little vehicles. That would be the really radical thing to do that might have been more comparable to the Turaga's reveal, making Matoran into canister sets. I think lots of people might have connected to that well, and Matoro still could have been the one to sacrifice.

That, would have been the best thing ever if it happened. But then I'm not sure the smaller matoran sets would work as well then, because then you'd have 12 matoran? A plotline made up of purely Matoran might not be as good. I mean how would any Matoran, vehicles or not, be able to deal with Vezon and Kardas?May have to MOC those matoran and vehicles though.

[Click]

I think it would be cool if the Inika Matoran arrived on Voya Nui, and Axonn and Brutaka were there, maybe as Toa, to help build them vehicles, and tell them about the Piraka. We get nicely articulated Matoran sets in about the original size (I've always wanted this, it might give Lego opportunity to try out some MOC-based connections!) with nice little vehicles for about $15. We could also have some larger sets with the Voya Nui Resistance Team in larger vehicles secretly designed by Garan or Velika to protect themselves (yes, more vehicles!). We'd get the six Matoran canisters, and then larger sets of maybe two Resistance Matoran in a large tank or something, two more in some other land vehicle, Piruk in a large aircraft, and Dalu in a boat. I really want to start MOCing this! Lego really should have started making Vehicles earlier rather than playsets.

[bonesiii]

I believe Nuparu was introduced a little later on as well.

Right...

then you'd have 12 matoran?

Good point. And another problem could be that target audience wants "noble heroes", so my idea might suffer for the same reason the Hordika did. We may never know.

[~Shockwave~]

vehicle would have been cool to see.so no matter what they do, they can't win....could have them reverted back to their original matoran forms.i imagine if mata nui could change tahu to mata form, he could change them back to matoran.and i still think the stars should've been all six mata i would love a better final version of gali.

[fishers64]

What really would have been awesome is if they had taken the "you don't have to be a Toa to be a hero" thing and expanded on that, having the Nuva fail but have the twelve Matoran work together to take down the Piraka using innovative methods unique to the Matoran. They started to do that with the Voyatoran but didn't stretch the thought out to its logical conclusion. And then the six Matoran would go down to find the mask, and the Inika would transform them into Toa. That way everyone would feel like it was a reward thing for all the stuff they did as Matoran, like the Metru, instead of an anticlimactic plot device. As for Vezon and Kardas, maybe the Nuva could help them out...

[Click]

Well, a while ago, I wrote a story where a team of Matoran races to the Chamber of Life before a Makuta can take the Spear of Fusion (it was supposedly still there). I did come up with a way to battle Kardas, but it was a fanfic. They did skip over Umbra though, since the Makuta had weakened him so much he couldn't fight, but probably with enough gear (for example, a mirror ), they could get into it. Or maybe the story could be rewritten so when they get to the Chamber of Life, the Mask of Life incapacitates Vezon in favor of Matoro so they can safely retreive the mask.

[Kumata]

Wasn't the original plan, after the Inika had their three-year saga ending in 2008, for 2009 to return to the Toa Nuva and focus on them for another three-year trilogy as they searched for the Great Beings? I'm sure Greg revealed that once. So in a way bonesiii we were lucky 'cause we might have had to wait another year for Tahu and co. to return to the spotlight.

[bonesiii]

That's correct, Kumata.

[CeeCee]

Edit: Yanno what might have been really cool too is if the Matoran that became Inika were to be heroes withOUT becoming Toa, but perhaps rode little vehicles. That would be the really radical thing to do that might have been more comparable to the Turaga's reveal, making Matoran into canister sets. I think lots of people might have connected to that well, and Matoro still could have been the one to sacrifice.

That, would have been the best thing ever if it happened. But then I'm not sure the smaller matoran sets would work as well then, because then you'd have 12 matoran? A plotline made up of purely Matoran might not be as good. I mean how would any Matoran, vehicles or not, be able to deal with Vezon and Kardas?May have to MOC those matoran and vehicles though.

Maybe the bike cold have the option for two seats.So the main sets with the bike would be the toa Ignika.Then you could have Kupara, Macku, Tamaru, Hafu, Kopeke and Onepu as small sets to put on the back of the bikes. A similar feature to 2008

[bohrokmaster]

What really would have been awesome is if they had taken the "you don't have to be a Toa to be a hero" thing and expanded on that, having the Nuva fail but have the twelve Matoran work together to take down the Piraka using innovative methods unique to the Matoran. They started to do that with the Voyatoran but didn't stretch the thought out to its logical conclusion.And then the six Matoran would go down to find the mask, and the Inika would transform them into Toa. That way everyone would feel like it was a reward thing for all the stuff they did as Matoran, like the Metru, instead of an anticlimactic plot device.As for Vezon and Kardas, maybe the Nuva could help them out...

I don't think I would want the toa nuva to fail, I would love to see the toa nuva, Jaller and friends, and the voyatoran come together as a resistence team and take down the piraka as an epic battle. the piraka are those villians that made me compelled to fight back. Edited July 17, 2012 by bohrokmaster

[fishers64]

What really would have been awesome is if they had taken the "you don't have to be a Toa to be a hero" thing and expanded on that, having the Nuva fail but have the twelve Matoran work together to take down the Piraka using innovative methods unique to the Matoran. They started to do that with the Voyatoran but didn't stretch the thought out to its logical conclusion.And then the six Matoran would go down to find the mask, and the Inika would transform them into Toa. That way everyone would feel like it was a reward thing for all the stuff they did as Matoran, like the Metru, instead of an anticlimactic plot device.As for Vezon and Kardas, maybe the Nuva could help them out...

I don't think I would want the toa nuva to fail, I would love to see the toa nuva, Jaller and friends, and the voyatoran come together as a resistence team and take down the piraka as an epic battle. the piraka are those villians that made me compelled to fight back.

That would have been good as well - but if the Nuva could do it on their own (without failure) they wouldn't need the Matoran's help. And then everyone would accuse Lego of making the Nuva overpowered.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Wasn't the original plan, after the Inika had their three-year saga ending in 2008, for 2009 to return to the Toa Nuva and focus on them for another three-year trilogy as they searched for the Great Beings? I'm sure Greg revealed that once. So in a way bonesiii we were lucky 'cause we might have had to wait another year for Tahu and co. to return to the spotlight.

Where was this revealed? Could you find the source?This is interesting. Bob Thompson had this "Seven books of Bionicle" plan when the story was created. Here's what we know about the books:

1. 2001-2003, the quest to return the Matoran of Metru Nui to their homeland
2. 2004-2005, the flashback of Metru Nui
3. 2006-2008, the quest to save Mata Nui's life
4. 2009-2011, the quest to find the Great Beings
5. No idea
6. No idea
7. The quest to awaken Mata Nui

What do you think the fifth and sixth books would've been about? How about the way Mata Nui is awakened in the end? That would surely not happen in Karda Nui. A labyrinth beneath Metru Nui, maybe?

[CeeCee]

Wasn't the original plan, after the Inika had their three-year saga ending in 2008, for 2009 to return to the Toa Nuva and focus on them for another three-year trilogy as they searched for the Great Beings? I'm sure Greg revealed that once. So in a way bonesiii we were lucky 'cause we might have had to wait another year for Tahu and co. to return to the spotlight.

Where was this revealed? Could you find the source?This is interesting. Bob Thompson had this "Seven books of Bionicle" plan when the story was created. Here's what we know about the books:

1. 2001-2003, the quest to return the Matoran of Metru Nui to their homeland
2. 2004-2005, the flashback of Metru Nui
3. 2006-2008, the quest to save Mata Nui's life
4. 2009-2011, the quest to find the Great Beings
5. No idea
6. No idea
7. The quest to awaken Mata Nui

What do you think the fifth and sixth books would've been about? How about the way Mata Nui is awakened in the end? That would surely not happen in Karda Nui. A labyrinth beneath Metru Nui, maybe?

I wonder if they would have intoduced a new Toa Team. Like the chroniclers company become Toa or somethingEDIT: I would have wanted to see the Turaga become Toa again. I know that would mean sacrificing their Toa powers to save the Matoran would be a bit watered. Still, I liked them Edited July 20, 2012 by SamH1995

[bonesiii]

Greg told us, Toatapio, that 2006-2008 was planned to be all Inika, when it started, and later told us that the plans were changing for 2009 to not bring back the Nuva, and he convinced them you can't abandon the Nuva entirely since the story started with them and called their mission the most important, so they changed 2008 to be them waking up the Great Spirit (or thinking they did anyways).

[Fractual Forever]

To be honest, I think that if the story were to change, people would still find a way to complain about it. After all, we as human beings are like that: Always complaining. Anyway, to go back on-topic...Obviously, the Glatorian arc was just a desperate attempt to end the story quickly. Everyone and their grandmother knows this. I think the only way we could have stuck with the original story bible was if Greg wasn't tied to the toy line. That way, he could have had more time writing up a better story 2005 and onwards. Sure, I loved the 2006 arc. It's my favourite. But as a whole, it was stretched out too long. Maybe they could have stuck with it being a one-year arc and have the Nuva take over 2007 as many others stated.

[fishers64]

To be honest, I think that if the story were to change, people would still find a way to complain about it. After all, we as human beings are like that: Always complaining. Anyway, to go back on-topic...Obviously, the Glatorian arc was just a desperate attempt to end the story quickly. Everyone and their grandmother knows this. I think the only way we could have stuck with the original story bible was if Greg wasn't tied to the toy line. That way, he could have had more time writing up a better story 2005 and onwards. Sure, I loved the 2006 arc. It's my favourite. But as a whole, it was stretched out too long. Maybe they could have stuck with it being a one-year arc and have the Nuva take over 2007 as many others stated.

The Glatorian Arc wasn't a ploy to end the story quickly - it actually dragged the story out for six additional months that it wasn't necessary to drag it out. And Greg isn't entirely to blame for how the story turned out. In the process of throwing the original plans out, he had help.I do agree with you that 2006-07 could have been condensed and possibly be better as a result.

[Tahu5181]

Wasn't the original plan, after the Inika had their three-year saga ending in 2008, for 2009 to return to the Toa Nuva and focus on them for another three-year trilogy as they searched for the Great Beings? I'm sure Greg revealed that once. So in a way bonesiii we were lucky 'cause we might have had to wait another year for Tahu and co. to return to the spotlight.

Where was this revealed? Could you find the source?This is interesting. Bob Thompson had this "Seven books of Bionicle" plan when the story was created. Here's what we know about the books:

1. 2001-2003, the quest to return the Matoran of Metru Nui to their homeland
2. 2004-2005, the flashback of Metru Nui
3. 2006-2008, the quest to save Mata Nui's life
4. 2009-2011, the quest to find the Great Beings
5. No idea
6. No idea
7. The quest to awaken Mata Nui

What do you think the fifth and sixth books would've been about? How about the way Mata Nui is awakened in the end? That would surely not happen in Karda Nui. A labyrinth beneath Metru Nui, maybe?

Anyone mind if I use this for an epic?

Greg told us, Toatapio, that 2006-2008 was planned to be all Inika, when it started, and later told us that the plans were changing for 2009 to not bring back the Nuva, and he convinced them you can't abandon the Nuva entirely since the story started with them and called their mission the most important, so they changed 2008 to be them waking up the Great Spirit (or thinking they did anyways).

Do you have a link?

[Click]

Well, I've already started MOCing the Inika Matoran and their vehicles. I have Jaller, Hahli, and Matoro almost done, and Jaller has a cool little dune buggy with turning wheels and a Zamor Sphere launcher on the front. Matoro's ice sled is in progress, and i have ideas for everyone else. Just thought I'd post that in the topic that gave me the idea.

[Zestanor]

http://www.bzpower.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=316837&st=0&start=0This shall answer all your questions. Everything that's been said is summed up there. (Old forums- will log you out.)

[Tahu5181]

http://www.bzpower.c...37&st=0&start=0This shall answer all your questions. Everything that's been said is summed up there. (Old forums- will log you out.)

OK. Thanks a lot.EDIT: From what I saw on that link, it looks like the Toa Nuva were supposed to awaken Mata Nui by 2011. Edited August 1, 2012 by Tahu5181

[Toatapio Nuva]

That's why I was confused about the whole Quest for the Great Beings thing. I thought the quest to awaken Mata Nui was after the Ignition saga.

[Tahu5181]

That's why I was confused about the whole Quest for the Great Beings thing. I thought the quest to awaken Mata Nui was after the Ignition saga.

It was. The Ignition saga was going to be 2006-2008, and then the Quest for the Great Beings/Quest to Awaken Mata Nui was from 2009-2011. I don't recall anything about the other two "books", however, if that's what you mean.So does anyone mind if I make an epic based on the original plans? Edited August 2, 2012 by Tahu5181

[aaninja64]

That's why I was confused about the whole Quest for the Great Beings thing. I thought the quest to awaken Mata Nui was after the Ignition saga.

It was. The Ignition saga was going to be 2006-2008, and then the Quest for the Great Beings/Quest to Awaken Mata Nui was from 2009-2011. I don't recall anything about the other two "books", however, if that's what you mean.So does anyone mind if I make an epic based on the original plans?

I would love that. But it seems like too much of a big thing for anything to be risked going wrong. Perhaps a collab project? This could be a huge epic story!

[Nick Silverpen]

It'd be an interesting concept to see. Would you be including three finger island? I have a storyboard set for that, as like a warm up for .the Bohrok. Faber files has alot of good unused material!The quest for the great beings before awakening mata nui? Either that would spill the secret of the Great Spirit robot early, or drastically change things about spherus magna. Hmm, since we still don't know where the Great Beings actually reside, it'd be a great concept to visit. Click- those would be awesome to see. Matoran with Inika masks?

[Toatapio Nuva]

It'd be an interesting concept to see. Would you be including three finger island? I have a storyboard set for that, as like a warm up for .the Bohrok. Faber files has alot of good unused material!The quest for the great beings before awakening mata nui? Either that would spill the secret of the Great Spirit robot early, or drastically change things about spherus magna. Hmm, since we still don't know where the Great Beings actually reside, it'd be a great concept to visit. Click- those would be awesome to see. Matoran with Inika masks?

Don't forget that the whole Spherus Magna thing was not part of the original plans at all. It was thought up in 2007 when Lego decided to move the story out of the MU earlier on.

[Sir Kohran]

what went wrong is that people "above Bionicle", executives and the like, lost sight of the importance of the core heroes to Bionicle; Tahu, etc. and that fans were not just expecting but had been led to believe 2006 would return us to them.

The Inika merely built on this formula in the now-expected way, it wasn't innovative anymore, it was cookie-cutter.

Also, actually the Turaga flashback should have been just 2004, and the Nuva should have returned in 2005.

Basically what I'm saying is the whole Inika/Mahri thing was a mistake from the get-go.

bones, simply out of interest...If memory still serves, in 2006 or so, when these stylistic/storyline decisions were being put into action, and debated/criticised on BZPower, you staunchly defended most of them in more topics and discussions than I'd like to try counting. Yet now, with Bionicle indefinitely cancelled (along with these decisions evidently having failed to benefit the line) you're saying above that a number of them were actually mistakes.Basically, you seem to have gone from a defender when the decisions were made, to a critic now that it's clear that they were not sufficient to keep Bionicle successful.I'm not accusing you of hypocrisy, just curious as to why your views have changed.

[bonesiii]

Kohran, I'm trying to think of a gentle way to say this, but I have noticed for a long time that you tend not to adopt an objective point of view, that you seem to show a bias towards negative reactions. I've always tried to be objective. The key is to have an emotionally calm or neutral point of view about it when discussing what Bionicle should do. I believe it is in that where you and I have usually disagreed.It's also not either/or. Mainly I was trying to get people to respect each other, so that those who had stronger negative reactions didn't flame those who did like what was done (or vice versa, etc.), as I said a lot. That was and remains my job. Also as I pointed out often, it's entertainment, so the point is not to find things to experience negative emotions about but quite the opposite; to find the best way to enjoy it the most you can. =DIt doesn't really surprise me you didn't realize this at the time (even though I said it often ); I often "read" you that way, as assuming I was defending whatever they did (even apparently forgetting when I did give or agree with constructive criticism, or say I disliked parts of it). It was pretty typical of the "naturally negative" type of personality back then; I've often noticed it in all walks of life. They seem to be unable to recognize objectivity, and assume that it is either their own approach or the opposite, depending on if the objective person's conclusions match theirs or not. Most of them came to realize this with enough gentle explaining. I hope you will realize it too. :)For example, from the start I have been making what I felt were improvements to Bionicle in my parallel fan fiction, as I continue to do. I commented on that a lot; perhaps you missed it. ^_^I do think it's easier to see good alternatives for ways to compress (or expand for that matter) a finished story when it's finished and we know all the big secrets and the like, though. But I'm always thinking about ways to do it more enjoyably, especially for the Paracosmos. Many have told me they see my stories as a better version of the official events than in the canon.And most people seem to be much calmer now about these things and get along more easily, so there is rarely any need since the new forum came up for me to correct people who were breaking or stretching the rules about civil debate. It largely hasn't happened. Most people don't seem to take constructive criticism as a reason to get upset anymore. Back then I had to moderate extensively to keep debate topics civil enough to stay open rather than being closed due to getting out of hand as they usually were before I started doing that. BZP has calmed down a lot now. (Which is awesome.)Really, if I was just going to be a biased defender, I could have done that a lot more easily by just not proposing to Ninjo what I did; to try to introduce more objectivity into the debates to keep the topics open. We would have just kept closing them as was done before I started that. My goal has always been to keep the criticism topics open, and it worked. I even tried to run an archive of criticism topics on my blog (although admittedly I got too lazy to keep it up). One of my favorite accomplishments was when after months of working at that I was able to report back to Ninjo that the complaint topics were staying open (and he agreed it was very good news!). :biggrin:Also, Bionicle went on for ten years; that is pretty successful. A lot of the changes I was supporting were LEGO's best ideas at the time as to how to keep it going rather than keep things from going stale and dying earlier, and it worked. We do have some hindsight now that nobody at the time had to judge some things more accurately. (They tend to match the criticisms I made at the time for the most part.)

Edited August 12, 2012 by bonesiii

[Tahu5181]

That's why I was confused about the whole Quest for the Great Beings thing. I thought the quest to awaken Mata Nui was after the Ignition saga.

It was. The Ignition saga was going to be 2006-2008, and then the Quest for the Great Beings/Quest to Awaken Mata Nui was from 2009-2011. I don't recall anything about the other two "books", however, if that's what you mean.So does anyone mind if I make an epic based on the original plans?

I would love that. But it seems like too much of a big thing for anything to be risked going wrong. Perhaps a collab project? This could be a huge epic story!

That would be awesome. We could all contribute ideas, and help write it. Then, we could post the final product on the Epics Forum. But would we start at the beginning, or would we wait until 2007, or 2008? What year would we start at? I think we should start in late 2007 or in 2008, where the original story would probably change from the story that was actually used. Edited August 12, 2012 by Tahu5181

[bohrokmaster]

That's why I was confused about the whole Quest for the Great Beings thing. I thought the quest to awaken Mata Nui was after the Ignition saga.

It was. The Ignition saga was going to be 2006-2008, and then the Quest for the Great Beings/Quest to Awaken Mata Nui was from 2009-2011. I don't recall anything about the other two "books", however, if that's what you mean.So does anyone mind if I make an epic based on the original plans?

I would love that. But it seems like too much of a big thing for anything to be risked going wrong. Perhaps a collab project? This could be a huge epic story!

That would be awesome. We could all contribute ideas, and help write it. Then, we could post the final product on the Epics Forum. But would we start at the beginning, or would we wait until 2007, or 2008? What year would we start at? I think we should start in late 2007 or in 2008, where the original story would probably change from the story that was actually used.

Can I help? I have many ideas for BIONICLE and I could share my ideas for the story. Edited August 12, 2012 by bohrokmaster

[Tahu5181]

That's why I was confused about the whole Quest for the Great Beings thing. I thought the quest to awaken Mata Nui was after the Ignition saga.

It was. The Ignition saga was going to be 2006-2008, and then the Quest for the Great Beings/Quest to Awaken Mata Nui was from 2009-2011. I don't recall anything about the other two "books", however, if that's what you mean.So does anyone mind if I make an epic based on the original plans?

I would love that. But it seems like too much of a big thing for anything to be risked going wrong. Perhaps a collab project? This could be a huge epic story!

That would be awesome. We could all contribute ideas, and help write it. Then, we could post the final product on the Epics Forum. But would we start at the beginning, or would we wait until 2007, or 2008? What year would we start at? I think we should start in late 2007 or in 2008, where the original story would probably change from the story that was actually used.

Can I help? I have many ideas for BIONICLE and I could share my ideas for the story.

Yes, of course. It's for anyone who wants to. However, it would be based on the Original Plans, so if you have your own idea, you might want to make an Epic about it, where you can tell your story. Edited August 12, 2012 by Tahu5181