Afterlife?

[Sybre]

Does anyone think there is a BIONICLE afterlife? Like a place BIONICLE characters go when they die?For example, a Toa and a Makuta die in battle. The Toa goes to some kinda heaven or another awesome place where he/she can roam free without trouble brewing. The Makuta goes to a place of suffering. Do you think that happens? Discuss it here.-Sybre

[~Shockwave~]

it would be logical to think that some of them have a religion of sorts. but I do not recall It being mentioned.but than again, we must still debate whether something with that percentage of inorganic matter can be alive. and that's a tough nut to crack. but that's another topic. practically another book. or maybe a whole library.

[bonesiii]

Well, they have spirits that can be stored in masks for a while after death. Then those fade away. Whether to nothing or to float away to someplace else is a matter LEGO would not comment on as it touches on religious beliefs. And I expect fans choose the answer that matches their own religious beliefs, the details of which we are not allowed to discuss here of course.

[The Iron Toa]

I thought their spirits were basically computer programs that are somehow 'disembodied'.

[Toa Zaz]

No, because Lego deliberately made Bionicle non-religious in order to appeal to a wider demographic and sell more toys. Speaking of which, this topic will probably get closed down pretty soon.

[Taipu1]

I have toyed with the idea, and probably so have many others for fan fics, but TLG makes sure these things are non-religious, and so it hasn't been covered in official storyline.

[CeeCee]

Well when Bionilce was more mystical in the 2001-2008 years, I used to believe that when they dies they would be like spirits, Little bit like Star Wars

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

I actually thought about this objectively for an epic of mine that I really need to finish one of these days. =/Basically, here's what I came to: You know what happens when you delete a file on your computer? First, it's stored into the recycle bin until you empty it. I'm not focusing on the deletion part (mainly because in terms of a story that's pretty anticlimactic and dull). The thing about this, though, is that the matoran and toa aren't your run-of-the-mill computer programs. They're pretty complex, so nobody can really say what happens. So, for my story, I decided to have it be "Mata Nui is in control of the universe and may have biological ties to its inhabitants. When one of these dies, the body recognizes it and the 'programs' are stored." Now, it might be interesting if the Great Beings put in this device to study the lives of their creations to help them study their work, though I'm normally terrible with this kinds of explanations. I imagine it would be a sort of stasis for their minds; their information and personality stored away (personality only for the use of my story. Think of it as a sort of shadow or a copy of the original). Of course everything here is just speculation and a shot in the dark. As for what really happens; we most likely will never know due to the reasons others have listed above. It is a fun topic to work with in my opinion.

[GallifreyanOrigin]

For the Glatorian, Agori, Great Beings, etc. maybe, but the MU characters are just machines that developed personalities (but I kinda do like the above theory).Although there's still the whole issue about Mavrah being in the Red Star...

Edited August 30, 2012 by XyzTheDay!

[LewaLew]

I doubt the GBs would have made such places for things they considered to be mere technology, especially when one of them wants to shut all of the former MU inhabitants down. And as for Agori/Glatorian and of course, the Great Beings themselves--they seem to have no hint of religious beliefs (unlike the Matoran with Artahka, Karzahni, and the Great Beings), and given the fact that religion is such a touchy subject, I think LEGO probably meant for them to be secular. Not that they are atheists, but simply that Spherus Magnan society appears to not have any evidence of a religion or a god, though creators might be hinted at. I can't remember for sure. I may just be confusing it with the Matoran's beliefs concerning the Great Beings (since we know they actually were created by the GB's).

Edited August 30, 2012 by LewaLew

[Click]

In the earlier years, Mata Nui almost seemed like a god, and Artakha and Karzahni were Heaven and...something more like Hades. Whether that actually does translate somehow (what if Artahka had a secret library filled with memories of good dead matoran that he uses in his creations?), I'm not sure. It would be cool to think about though.

[Sybre]

In the earlier years, Mata Nui almost seemed like a god, and Artakha and Karzahni were Heaven and...something more like Hades. Whether that actually does translate somehow (what if Artahka had a secret library filled with memories of good dead matoran that he uses in his creations?), I'm not sure. It would be cool to think about though.

Actually, you do have a point. From what I hear, Artahka is the Matoran place of refuge and Karzahni is a terrible place. They do seem like Heaven and Hades.

[CeeCee]

In the earlier years, Mata Nui almost seemed like a god, and Artakha and Karzahni were Heaven and...something more like Hades. Whether that actually does translate somehow (what if Artahka had a secret library filled with memories of good dead matoran that he uses in his creations?), I'm not sure. It would be cool to think about though.

Actually, you do have a point. From what I hear, Artahka is the Matoran place of refuge and Karzahni is a terrible place. They do seem like Heaven and Hades.

I always thought this. Although If Karsahni had of done his job, it would be more like purgatory that Hades

[Iku]

I think that they don't really have a heaven or hades. If they die, life goes on, and nothing really changes. Maybe they don't even have spirits. My theory about the "spirits" e.g. in the mask, is that they infused some of their knowledge into the mask, allowing the mask to react to certain things, therefore being able to allow the "spirit" of someone to "live" on.

[toa kopaka4372]

I guess their spirits fade away or something. Also, I'm pretty sure their spirits are not computer programs or the sort, becaiuse they are literally their life force; when a spirit leaves the body, death occurs.

[The Iron Toa]

Actually, that's not always so. Consider the Kanohi Iden.

[toa kopaka4372]

Well, I'm pretty sure the body dies; Matoro was technically dead every time he used his mask power.

Edited September 6, 2012 by toa kopaka4372

[bonesiii]

No, he wasn't. More like a comatose state. If he was dead he wouldn't be breathing, etc. and his spirit was still connected to his body, just 'projected'.

[GallifreyanOrigin]

Something occurred to me; if the MU inhabitants did have an afterlife, where exactly would that leave Sentrakh? o.O

[toa kopaka4372]

No, he wasn't. More like a comatose state. If he was dead he wouldn't be breathing, etc. and his spirit was still connected to his body, just 'projected'.

Well, that's why I said technically

[bonesiii]

Maybe technically brain-dead, but the body is not technically dead at all.

[The Lord Of Wednesday]

I think they might survive death in some form, I say this because I recall somewhere reading that the kanohi Ignika is incapable of reviving most deceased beings because it is not capable of "calling the deceased spirit back to it's body" assuming that was from official material then that would at least imply something. For the record, I either heard this from canon material at best, or a BS01 entry at worst. I suspect there were reasons Mata Nui was capable of being revived for similar to how your essence can be in a kanohi for some short amount of time after death.

[~Shockwave~]

why do I see a "are MU inhabitants alive" topic coming out of this?

[Toa Nidhiki05]

Well, there is some sort of spirit form, as recently deceased beings can be revived under certain circumstances. Thus, without going into too much detail, it would make sense that either a Western (Heaven and Hades) or Eastern (pantheism, reincarnation) spiritual model would exist in the universe. Obviously religion isn't a big deal due to (smart) LEGO policy, but there is room to speculate.-TN05

[bonesiii]

why do I see a "are MU inhabitants alive" topic coming out of this?

I don't know, but I can answer it here. Yes. Hence the Mask of Life, organics, being biomechanical rather than robots, etc.

[Lokisyn]

I recall reading in the Crossing, that Vorox are superstitious, and when Gresh rubbed some glowing minerals onto his armor, they thought he is a ghost. Then Malum said he soon will be...

[fishers64]

Something occurred to me; if the MU inhabitants did have an afterlife, where exactly would that leave Sentrakh? o.O

Neither dead nor alive.

I recall reading in the Crossing, that Vorox are superstitious, and when Gresh rubbed some glowing minerals onto his armor, they thought he is a ghost. Then Malum said he soon will be...

Gresh and Malum aren't exactly on the best of terms, I imagine.

[Zox Tomana]

Something occurred to me; if the MU inhabitants did have an afterlife, where exactly would that leave Sentrakh? o.O

Neither dead nor alive.

I recall reading in the Crossing, that Vorox are superstitious, and when Gresh rubbed some glowing minerals onto his armor, they thought he is a ghost. Then Malum said he soon will be...

Gresh and Malum aren't exactly on the best of terms, I imagine.

No, But I imagine the point he was trying to make was that if they have a conception of Ghosts, there is at least a superstition of some kind on SM. There is no explicit recording of spiritual beliefs there that we have seen, but for that sort of threat to have weight, or for that kind of diversion to work, there has to be the "dead spirits" conception behind the word "ghost".Also, note this. Even in an atheistic society where an afterlife is viewed with skeptical eyes, the dead are still honored in some way. Matoro, for instance, was honored and we have been given no particular religious belief to attach to Matoran Society (I think Greg at one time disavowed the idea that they thought of Mata Nui as a god). For all we know, their views of the afterlife are that the spirit fades away. That there is a concept of ghosts in at least one of the cultures kinda undermines that, however.

[fishers64]

I recall reading in the Crossing, that Vorox are superstitious, and when Gresh rubbed some glowing minerals onto his armor, they thought he is a ghost. Then Malum said he soon will be...

Gresh and Malum aren't exactly on the best of terms, I imagine.

No, But I imagine the point he was trying to make was that if they have a conception of Ghosts, there is at least a superstition of some kind on SM. There is no explicit recording of spiritual beliefs there that we have seen, but for that sort of threat to have weight, or for that kind of diversion to work, there has to be the "dead spirits" conception behind the word "ghost".Also, note this. Even in an atheistic society where an afterlife is viewed with skeptical eyes, the dead are still honored in some way. Matoro, for instance, was honored and we have been given no particular religious belief to attach to Matoran Society (I think Greg at one time disavowed the idea that they thought of Mata Nui as a god). For all we know, their views of the afterlife are that the spirit fades away. That there is a concept of ghosts in at least one of the cultures kinda undermines that, however.

The fact that SM inhabitants believe in ghosts does not mean that the MU inhabitants believe in ghosts.

[Nuparu1995]

Well, they have spirits that can be stored in masks for a while after death. Then those fade away. Whether to nothing or to float away to someplace else is a matter LEGO would not comment on as it touches on religious beliefs. And I expect fans choose the answer that matches their own religious beliefs, the details of which we are not allowed to discuss here of course.

Yeah, like Lihkan's Hau having some effects on Jaller when he began to wear it.And I definitely agree, something so undefined and subjective can be taken however one would want to take it, whether based on their own beliefs or otherwise.And I think, based on what we've seen on Bionicle spirituality, that it's something like Star Wars and the Force, where those who die kinda become part of this invisible psychic force/energy and sorta assimilate into everything in the world around them.

[The Iron Toa]

Did Lhikan's Hau really leave a sort of personality imprint on Jaller?

[onionfarb]

Here is a discussion I had with Greg that touched upon the concept of a BIONICLE afterlife.

A10: Where did Mata Nui's spirit come from? Did The Great Beings make it? If so, how?GregF: It was his AIA10: What do you mean?GregF: AI, artificial intelligenceA10: Wouldn't his artifical intelligence go away if the robot shut down? How does artifical intelligence count as a spirit?GregF: It would indeed, if we were talking Earth science. But AI also doesn't feel the kind of emotions Matoran do in Earth science, or the sort of concepts of loyalty or self-sacrifice ... so we are obviously not dealing with Earth science here. It also depends on what form these "thoughts" are taking -- do we know that the energy or form they are made up of cannot exist outside of the shell?A10: Well, artificial intelligence is generated by the shell, so if the shell turns off, the AI would turn off.Just like if a body turns off, the mind turns off. But, as you say, we're not talking Earth science. So, in BIONICLE science, the mind can exist without what generates it? So, that would mean that Nidhiki and Krekka and the Toa Mangai and Kodan and the Makuta and Matoro and original Hydraxon and alternate Tuyet and everyone else we've lost are still out there somewhere, right?GregF: Anyone whose mind gets absorbed by a Makuta has their mind destroyed by the Makuta's greater will, because otherwise they would be constantly harrying the Makuta. As for the rest, it sort of ends up drifting into a discussion of BIONICLE afterlife, which we don't discuss.

So there you have it, people. We don't discuss the BIONICLE afterlife. Edited September 7, 2012 by A10

[TheSkeletonMan939]

We don't discuss the BIONICLE afterlife.

That's a pretty straightforward answer. Edited September 7, 2012 by TheSkeletonMan939

[Zestanor]

I personally don't think there is one. It would kind of undermine the legitamacy of Matoro's (and others') sacrifice to know that they are watching from some sort of heaven. However, their 'souls' can linger for a short time, like Jaller's and Mata Nui's.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Zestanor

[Toa of Nerds]

Well, in the early years of Bionicle it seemed like the matoran had a semi-religious relationship with Mata-Nui, but it turns out that Mata-Nui was a robot and not a god. However, it's unclear if the matoran believed in any sort of afterlife regarding that relationship. Really anything dealing with afterlife in Bionicle is pure speculation.-don't touch my pocket protector

[The Lord Of Wednesday]

I personally don't think there is one. It would kind of undermine the legitamacy of Matoro's (and others') sacrifice to know that they are watching from some sort of heaven. However, their 'souls' can linger for a short time, like Jaller's and Mata Nui's.

I don't think so, if you ask me the only way death is cheapened is if the Trope "Death is Cheap" is involved, in this case I would be talking about how reviving someone who is dead very easily would undermine it, however the existence of an afterlife does not. Though this is my opinion.

[Toa Nidhiki05]

I personally don't think there is one. It would kind of undermine the legitamacy of Matoro's (and others') sacrifice to know that they are watching from some sort of heaven. However, their 'souls' can linger for a short time, like Jaller's and Mata Nui's.

I don't think so, if you ask me the only way death is cheapened is if the Trope "Death is Cheap" is involved, in this case I would be talking about how reviving someone who is dead very easily would undermine it, however the existence of an afterlife does not. Though this is my opinion.

I tend to agree with you - as long as you can't be revived, the death is very powerful and legitimate. Even if there is a BIONICLE afterlife, you still gave the maximum sacrifice in this life, which can easily last 100,000 years - hardly a petty sacrifice.-TN05

[The Iron Toa]

Yes, some people believe in an afterlife in real life, some don't, but almost everyone agrees that death is a big deal, because of its irreversibility.Now, I still have questions about the spirit of MU beings. Is it some sort of disembodied AI? And did Lhikan really leave an imprint in his Kanohi that affected Jaller?

[fishers64]

Did Lhikan's Hau really leave a sort of personality imprint on Jaller?

I think that whatever remants of Lhikan's spirit would have faded by the time Jaller got the mask.Although we don't know what Jaller was before he got the mask, besides Vakama's friend, so he might have got some of that loyalty and attention to duty from the mask. It's possible, but not likely.

[Zox Tomana]

No, But I imagine the point he was trying to make was that if they have a conception of Ghosts, there is at least a superstition of some kind on SM. There is no explicit recording of spiritual beliefs there that we have seen, but for that sort of threat to have weight, or for that kind of diversion to work, there has to be the "dead spirits" conception behind the word "ghost".Also, note this. Even in an atheistic society where an afterlife is viewed with skeptical eyes, the dead are still honored in some way. Matoro, for instance, was honored and we have been given no particular religious belief to attach to Matoran Society (I think Greg at one time disavowed the idea that they thought of Mata Nui as a god). For all we know, their views of the afterlife are that the spirit fades away. That there is a concept of ghosts in at least one of the cultures kinda undermines that, however.

The fact that SM inhabitants believe in ghosts does not mean that the MU inhabitants believe in ghosts.

Hence "at least one of the cultures".I probably should have tightened my argument more. I meant to touch on the MU Inhabitants to show that we have seen an example of honoring the deceased (I don't know if there have been any examples seen on SM) while admitting the (obvious) lack of defined spirituality in the MU. I then meant to move back to SM and re-highlight that to have a concept of haunting ghosts, you have to have some kind of concept of the soul and the post-life existence thereof even if it is temporary and fading.The only way "ghost" has been largely used in the MU is to refer to something seen only fleetingly or that is hidden from view. The Keerahk-type Vahki and the Nynrah Ghosts come to mind immediately. Incoporeal spirits in the MU have only been users of the Iden as far as I remember, and spiritual imprints only on Kanohi (which, as has been said many times, is fading). Any further and we get into stuff we can't expect help from Greg on.The only example of a ghost in the same conceptual category as that mentioned by Mallum and Gresh is when the Toa Inika encountered Toa Lhikan's "ghost". While that was only an image, BS01 at least records it as them seeing his "ghost". Does anyone have that book and can shed some light on that passage?Anyway, yes. SM believing in ghosts doesn't necessarily translate to the MU. I simply didn't properly state my argument. Sorry