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Nuva vs. Inika?


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#1 Offline CaptainLepidus

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 01:56 PM

GregF stated that the Nuva were more powerful than the Inika...yet they were repeatedly beaten by the Piraka (albeit once with the help of Brutaka), whereas the Inika were at least the Piraka's equals. Is there an explanation for this?
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#2 Offline The Lorax

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:14 PM

That the Inika were the designated heroes of that year, so they had to be able to foot it with the villains.As far as in-story reasons go, The Nuva were unprepared for their forst fight with the Piraka, and had no idea what they were up against. By the time the Inika got to fight them, they had been clued up a bit more by the Matoran. The piraka not working well together in their battles with the Inika helped too.

Edited by The Lorax, Sep 12 2012 - 02:15 PM.

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#3 Offline CaptainLepidus

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:17 PM

That the Inika were the designated heroes of that year, so they had to be able to foot it with the villains.As far as in-story reasons go, The Nuva were unprepared for their forst fight with the Piraka, and had no idea what they were up against. By the time the Inika got to fight them, they had been clued up a bit more by the Matoran. The piraka not working well together in their battles with the Inika helped too.

I suppose that makes sense, sort of. But the Nuva had been Toa for 3 years, and the Inika were only recently transformed...it still seems illogical.

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#4 Offline The Lorax

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:22 PM

Yeah, it does seem off. The Piraka also had over 70,000 years of using their powers to gain experience. If they had been working together rather than trying to backstab each other, they should have been able to crush the newly transformed Inika like fleas.Still, that doesn't make for a very good hero story, does it? The story team had to give the Inika a chance, even if their success didn't match their ability.
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#5 Offline CaptainLepidus

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:30 PM

It would have made more sense if only a combined Nuva/Inika team had been able to defeat the Piraka, perhaps with help from Takanuva...but I suppose they didn't want to re-release sets.
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#6 Offline The Renegade Emperor

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:33 PM

Nice question, I had that doubt too. I think it was because of the Three Virtues: maybe it wasn't the Toa Nuva's Destiny to win the fight against the United Piraka, while it was the Inika's Destiny and Duty to fight those villains when the latter ones lose their Unity and thus became vulnerable. "Divided we fall".
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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:42 PM

Well this is a classic example of allocation when it comes to matchups. People typically assume, wrongly, that there's merely a single spectrum of stronger vs. weaker, but it's not like that at all. There are countless spectrums, and winning one battle is all about having the allocation of the right strengths against the right opposing strengths and not being weak in ways your specific opponent can take advantage of easily. (And the specific situation matters a ton as well.)It is never about such simplistic things as "this guy's overall stronger, so he wins always." No. You have to "zoom in" and look at the actual story as it happened, in all its detail, to understand the allocations and situation.Overall the Nuva are more powerful than the Inika, but when it comes to facing this kind of enemy, the Inika have the right allocation to be better against them. And the story made a major point of this, BTW; this isn't just something to explain away but something readers were supposed to understand from reading the story and seeing how it actually played out. :)The biggest advantage was the lightning infused with them. This made them impervious to antidermis. They could also fire elements mixed with Lightning, amping up their attacks. The organic masks gave them knowledge of their mask powers so they could skip the learning curve the Metru had to go through. And the specific powers were helpful too. Elda would have been, just to get this out of the way, but they didn't really use it. But they had Calix, which enabled Jaller to do nearly anything perfectly if he set his mind to it, the ability to spy far ahead with the Iden, telepathy with the Suletu, as well as Accuracy and Flight. The story showed how all of these were used successfully against the Piraka.Also, the timing of their arrival helped. The Nuva walked basically into an ambush unprepared for serious enemies; they had practiced against essentially mindless enemies that were often not much of a threat to them in terms of strategy, other than Makuta himself, and he had used scheduled "defeats" to them as part of his strategy. They faced the Piraka with no real preparation, and lost quickly in a direct showdown. Had they tried a more strategic approach they probably would have won, but once they failed, they were captured and needed rescued.The Inika by contrast were greatly worried because the Nuva had not been heard from since they left, and nothing seemed to be getting better. They came onto the island (having passed through great tests) already prepared for a worst-case scenario and approached the Piraka more cautiously. In this case their own awareness of how weak they are was ironically what saved them (in terms of experience anyways); the Nuva thought themselves unbeatable and hit the proverbial iceberg, while the Inika's caution gave them the upper hand.BTW, the experience argument doesn't necessarily work either, because most of the Inika had great experience at winning battles without even having Toa power -- especially Jaller, Kongu, and Matoro -- whereas beings with power may have less tactical experience because they tend to rely on their powers. Since the Inika's powers were such a good match against the Piraka, combined with their superior experience at general battle and caution where they knew their experience was lacking, they were balanced enough that with enough willpower and imagination the Inika were able to win.I'd also note that just in terms of maturity, the Inika were more mature, especially Jaller and Matoro, before the Toa Mata even arrived at Mata Nui, let alone becoming Toa, than many of the Nuva when they faced the Piraka. Jaller didn't need to know the specific situation to know to approach it cautiously because he was already a master at that sort of thing in his experience against the Rahi over a thousand years. In many ways, the Rahi to Matoran Jaller were even more intimidating than the Piraka to Toa Jaller, for example. And notice how Jaller didn't have to go through a temper tantrum stage unlike Tahu or Vakama. He was already miles ahead of both of them by the time he became Toa.That said, the Nuva had a lot more battle/skill experience than just three years; they remembered much of that sort of thing from their past life, but not the events that gave them those skills.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 12 2012 - 02:54 PM.

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#8 Offline CaptainLepidus

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:47 PM

Those are great points Bonesii. And yeah, I definitely thought about the arrogance factor; the Nuva hadn't fought anything on their level before; they were more adept at fighting hordes of weaker enemies.I suppose that explains it, then.
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#9 Offline Takanuvainika

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:52 PM

The toa nuva were most likely severely weekened by antidermis so that probably made them easier to beat.
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#10 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 04:05 PM

Well this is a classic example of allocation when it comes to matchups. People typically assume, wrongly, that there's merely a single spectrum of stronger vs. weaker, but it's not like that at all. There are countless spectrums, and winning one battle is all about having the allocation of the right strengths against the right opposing strengths and not being weak in ways your specific opponent can take advantage of easily. (And the specific situation matters a ton as well.)It is never about such simplistic things as "this guy's overall stronger, so he wins always." No. You have to "zoom in" and look at the actual story as it happened, in all its detail, to understand the allocations and situation.Overall the Nuva are more powerful than the Inika, but when it comes to facing this kind of enemy, the Inika have the right allocation to be better against them. And the story made a major point of this, BTW; this isn't just something to explain away but something readers were supposed to understand from reading the story and seeing how it actually played out. :)The biggest advantage was the lightning infused with them. This made them impervious to antidermis. They could also fire elements mixed with Lightning, amping up their attacks. The organic masks gave them knowledge of their mask powers so they could skip the learning curve the Metru had to go through. And the specific powers were helpful too. Elda would have been, just to get this out of the way, but they didn't really use it. But they had Calix, which enabled Jaller to do nearly anything perfectly if he set his mind to it, the ability to spy far ahead with the Iden, telepathy with the Suletu, as well as Accuracy and Flight. The story showed how all of these were used successfully against the Piraka.Also, the timing of their arrival helped. The Nuva walked basically into an ambush unprepared for serious enemies; they had practiced against essentially mindless enemies that were often not much of a threat to them in terms of strategy, other than Makuta himself, and he had used scheduled "defeats" to them as part of his strategy. They faced the Piraka with no real preparation, and lost quickly in a direct showdown. Had they tried a more strategic approach they probably would have won, but once they failed, they were captured and needed rescued.The Inika by contrast were greatly worried because the Nuva had not been heard from since they left, and nothing seemed to be getting better. They came onto the island (having passed through great tests) already prepared for a worst-case scenario and approached the Piraka more cautiously. In this case their own awareness of how weak they are was ironically what saved them (in terms of experience anyways); the Nuva thought themselves unbeatable and hit the proverbial iceberg, while the Inika's caution gave them the upper hand.BTW, the experience argument doesn't necessarily work either, because most of the Inika had great experience at winning battles without even having Toa power -- especially Jaller, Kongu, and Matoro -- whereas beings with power may have less tactical experience because they tend to rely on their powers. Since the Inika's powers were such a good match against the Piraka, combined with their superior experience at general battle and caution where they knew their experience was lacking, they were balanced enough that with enough willpower and imagination the Inika were able to win.I'd also note that just in terms of maturity, the Inika were more mature, especially Jaller and Matoro, before the Toa Mata even arrived at Mata Nui, let alone becoming Toa, than many of the Nuva when they faced the Piraka. Jaller didn't need to know the specific situation to know to approach it cautiously because he was already a master at that sort of thing in his experience against the Rahi over a thousand years. In many ways, the Rahi to Matoran Jaller were even more intimidating than the Piraka to Toa Jaller, for example. And notice how Jaller didn't have to go through a temper tantrum stage unlike Tahu or Vakama. He was already miles ahead of both of them by the time he became Toa.That said, the Nuva had a lot more battle/skill experience than just three years; they remembered much of that sort of thing from their past life, but not the events that gave them those skills.

One other thing is the sheer tactical ability the Piraka had - they had fought and killed Toa for tens of thousands of years, from veterans to novices. They knew pretty much exactly what the Toa could do, and in contrast the Nuva knew nothing about Skakdi.However, the Piraka had never faced Toa who had lightning mixed with their main element - they also underestimated the tactical ability of the Inika. Keep in mind, as Matoran they had fought wild Rahi under Makuta's control non-stop for a thousand years - they knew what strategies worked without power, and with the bonus of elemental power and mask power were very prepared for combat. They also gained more knowledge about the Piraka from the Matoran of Voya Nui and Axonn, and thus knew more about what they were up against.While there were a lot of factors, I'd assert the main factors were tactical. Throughout history there are countless examples of armies being outnumbered significantly and winning due to superior tactics, and tactical advantage is really what the Inika had going for them.-TN05

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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 04:21 PM

One other thing is the sheer tactical ability the Piraka had - they had fought and killed Toa for tens of thousands of years, from veterans to novices. They knew pretty much exactly what the Toa could do, and in contrast the Nuva knew nothing about Skakdi.However, the Piraka had never faced Toa who had lightning mixed with their main element - they also underestimated the tactical ability of the Inika.

Come to think of it, we don't know how widespread the Inika Kanohi are, plus they were in mutated shapes. Of course, so were the Nuva's, but perhaps they could tell for example that Tahu's mask was a Hau, so adapt accordingly, Kopaka's is obviously Vision, Gali's resembles Water Breathing, etc. The other three looked less like their originals, so not sure how far this logic goes. But my point is, perhaps the Piraka were not familiar with some of the Inika's mask shapes or powers so that experience might not have helped them much.

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#12 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 05:20 PM

In terms of sheer power, I think they're close to even, but the Nuva have Nuva Masks and experience on their side as well.
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#13 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 07:22 PM

One other thing is the sheer tactical ability the Piraka had - they had fought and killed Toa for tens of thousands of years, from veterans to novices. They knew pretty much exactly what the Toa could do, and in contrast the Nuva knew nothing about Skakdi.However, the Piraka had never faced Toa who had lightning mixed with their main element - they also underestimated the tactical ability of the Inika.

Come to think of it, we don't know how widespread the Inika Kanohi are, plus they were in mutated shapes. Of course, so were the Nuva's, but perhaps they could tell for example that Tahu's mask was a Hau, so adapt accordingly, Kopaka's is obviously Vision, Gali's resembles Water Breathing, etc. The other three looked less like their originals, so not sure how far this logic goes. But my point is, perhaps the Piraka were not familiar with some of the Inika's mask shapes or powers so that experience might not have helped them much.

The shapes at least were rare - I would headcanon and guess that the masks Karzahni gave his Matoran were rare, since he gave others uncommon masks like the Mask of Undeath. If that is the case, the Piraka would only have shapes to go off of to determine Kanohi, so they very well may not have seen them before (particularly the Elda).As for the Nuva masks, I see two ways they could know - Makuta could have told Zaktan about them at some point, or the Piraka could have recognized the Nuva based off of the legends of the Toa Mata, which were widely known in the universe. If that was the case,case they could guess the mask powers easily because ornate mask shapes are somewhat common.-TN05

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#14 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 07:36 PM

One other thing is the sheer tactical ability the Piraka had - they had fought and killed Toa for tens of thousands of years, from veterans to novices. They knew pretty much exactly what the Toa could do, and in contrast the Nuva knew nothing about Skakdi.However, the Piraka had never faced Toa who had lightning mixed with their main element - they also underestimated the tactical ability of the Inika.

Come to think of it, we don't know how widespread the Inika Kanohi are, plus they were in mutated shapes. Of course, so were the Nuva's, but perhaps they could tell for example that Tahu's mask was a Hau, so adapt accordingly, Kopaka's is obviously Vision, Gali's resembles Water Breathing, etc. The other three looked less like their originals, so not sure how far this logic goes. But my point is, perhaps the Piraka were not familiar with some of the Inika's mask shapes or powers so that experience might not have helped them much.

The shapes at least were rare - I would headcanon and guess that the masks Karzahni gave his Matoran were rare, since he gave others uncommon masks like the Mask of Undeath. If that is the case, the Piraka would only have shapes to go off of to determine Kanohi, so they very well may not have seen them before (particularly the Elda).As for the Nuva masks, I see two ways they could know - Makuta could have told Zaktan about them at some point, or the Piraka could have recognized the Nuva based off of the legends of the Toa Mata, which were widely known in the universe. If that was the case,case they could guess the mask powers easily because ornate mask shapes are somewhat common.-TN05

If I remember right, Kongu once defeated Avak using his Suletu for a mental attack to break Avak's concentration and disrupt his prison-making-power. In addition, Hakann was amazed at Jaller's Calix and some Piraka (maybe Vezok?) thought that Matoro was fainting when he used his Iden.

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#15 Offline fishers64

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Posted Sep 13 2012 - 12:43 AM

One other thing is the sheer tactical ability the Piraka had - they had fought and killed Toa for tens of thousands of years, from veterans to novices. They knew pretty much exactly what the Toa could do, and in contrast the Nuva knew nothing about Skakdi.However, the Piraka had never faced Toa who had lightning mixed with their main element - they also underestimated the tactical ability of the Inika.

Come to think of it, we don't know how widespread the Inika Kanohi are, plus they were in mutated shapes. Of course, so were the Nuva's, but perhaps they could tell for example that Tahu's mask was a Hau, so adapt accordingly, Kopaka's is obviously Vision, Gali's resembles Water Breathing, etc. The other three looked less like their originals, so not sure how far this logic goes. But my point is, perhaps the Piraka were not familiar with some of the Inika's mask shapes or powers so that experience might not have helped them much.

The shapes at least were rare - I would headcanon and guess that the masks Karzahni gave his Matoran were rare, since he gave others uncommon masks like the Mask of Undeath. If that is the case, the Piraka would only have shapes to go off of to determine Kanohi, so they very well may not have seen them before (particularly the Elda).As for the Nuva masks, I see two ways they could know - Makuta could have told Zaktan about them at some point, or the Piraka could have recognized the Nuva based off of the legends of the Toa Mata, which were widely known in the universe. If that was the case,case they could guess the mask powers easily because ornate mask shapes are somewhat common.-TN05

If I remember right, Kongu once defeated Avak using his Suletu for a mental attack to break Avak's concentration and disrupt his prison-making-power. In addition, Hakann was amazed at Jaller's Calix and some Piraka (maybe Vezok?) thought that Matoro was fainting when he used his Iden.

Maybe the Inika mask powers aren't common? That is would be ununusal to run into these sorts of powers, so the Piraka wouldn't have seen them in action before?But I find that to be unlikely. I think it was more the unusual ways the Inika used them that gave them an edge. Nuparu's flying into the sea, Kongu's mental attack, Hewkii stacking rocks on top of Brutaka, and so on. They thought outside the box, which might have come from a thousand years on an island with no help. :shrugs: But they all just seem to be naturally inventive anyway, and not just Nuparu.The Toa Mata have always been Toa. They don't know anything else, so they don't have anything wacky or unusual in their fight style. Versus like a bunch of Matoran who have to think of crazy things to avoid doom every day. The Piraka weren't prepared for crazy.

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#16 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Sep 13 2012 - 07:07 PM

GregF stated that the Nuva were more powerful than the Inika...yet they were repeatedly beaten by the Piraka (albeit once with the help of Brutaka), whereas the Inika were at least the Piraka's equals. Is there an explanation for this?

Well, this all seems boil down to a few things:-The Inika were better prepared than the Nuva. The Matoran Resistance explained to them all of the Piraka's powers, as well as equipping them with Energized Protodermis Zamor launchers. This is illustrated very well when Kongu broke Avak's focus with his Suletu in order to escape his air-draining prison. This applies to their past professions as well: they were all athletes, and several (Jaller and Kongu) were leaders of their villages' respective guards. This also allowed them to strategize better than the Nuva, who had only fought two intelligent foes that I can think of (Hydraxon and Teridax). The Inika were also used to fighting as Matoran, so adding Toa powers onto that would give them an easy advantage over beings who used their powers as a sort of "crutch" (though to be fair, the Nuva had been forced to fight powerless before). Additionally, the creative ways they used their powers (Nuparu flying Zaktan into the ocean, Kongu improvising a mental blast on Avak, Hewkii trapping Brutaka underground rather than fighting him directly) gave them an edge over the more traditional Nuva.-The Piraka were very ill-prepared for the Inika. The Piraka had not been on the island for very long (at least, compared to the arrival of the Inika) when the Nuva arrived, so they were still capable of uniting their forces. If the Piraka had combined their powers against the Inika, then they may have very easily overpowered them, as the Inika were comparatively inexperienced as Toa. Additionally, the Nuva's masks were far more common than the Inika's, meaning that the Piraka may not have recognized the Inika's mask powers.-The Inika's powers were better-suited to battle the Piraka. The energy from the Red Star gave their elemental powers electricity, which provided a nice... shock for the Piraka. It also allowed them to resist the effects of Antidermis, rendering them immune to the Piraka's Zamors. As far as mask powers go, the Inika had a powerful dodging ability (Jaller) and a Mask of Telepathy (Kongu). Matoro's Iden made him an excellent scout, and Hahli's Elda could have made the Inika's search much easier (although they didn't use it that much). Hewkii's Mask of Accuracy made him a deadly ranged combatant, and I doubt I even need to explain how useful Nuparu's Kadin was.Even after looking over this topic, all of the answers seem to go into at least one of these categories.

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#17 Offline boston100

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Posted Sep 15 2012 - 08:42 PM

Justone thing, at the end of dark destiny the purslane were afraid of the new toa but iniland of doom vezok was happy toa had arrived
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#18 Offline fishers64

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Posted Sep 16 2012 - 04:03 AM

Justone thing, at the end of dark destiny the purslane were afraid of the new toa but iniland of doom vezok was happy toa had arrived

Maybe they thought the Toa Nuva were acting independently, but now that a second team has shown up they suspect that there was a greater force behind them? Something to fear?

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#19 Offline Katuko

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Posted Sep 17 2012 - 11:23 AM

Vezon was also rather insane, and once he realized he'd be stuck with the mask for eternity he likely reveled in seeing other people, if only to fight them and show what a good guardian he was.

Edited by Katuko, Sep 17 2012 - 11:23 AM.

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#20 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Sep 21 2012 - 02:37 PM

I thought he was insane before hand, since he was split from Vezok.
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#21 Offline Toa Axis

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Posted Sep 22 2012 - 10:08 AM

Bonesii pretty much summed it up.
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#22 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 07:12 PM

Well, this was pretty off-topic over where it was posted, but I still felt like it needed to be addressed. So I went ahead and moved it here.

I was also confused Iron Toa, and it made me quite mad.The original heroes, the Toa Mata/Nuva, who were our original characters. We followed their adventures on Mata Nui, defeating corrupted Rahi, Makuta, the Bohrok, the Bohrok-Kal, the Bahrag, the Rahkshi, etc... and then they go to Voya Nui and basically get schooled in a showdown with the Piraka... then get rescued, only to have the same thing happen, except by Brutaka... in one blow.I don't know... it just wasn't right doing that to our heroes...It's like in "Marvel's The Avengers 2", if Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, and the Hulk show up in the first five minutes of the movie, get beaten pretty badly, get rescued, and then get beat again... and the whole team a few other heroes - who are not Avengers at all - show up and kick the villain's tail all of a sudden. You just shouldn't do it.I would have preferred the Nuva be defeated, then imprisoned, then the Inika be defeated, then they all team up and beat the Piraka together.

Well, as already discussed in this topic, the Inika had a number of major advantages that the Nuva didn't - and the Nuva's defeat helped to show just how desperate their situation was.As for the rest... Brutaka was not holding back in the slightest, and he was at that point highly Antidermis-enhanced. Do you think a Titan, with far more natural strength than a Toa, majorly boosted by Antidermis, could not knock out six Toa in one blow?

Edited by Meta-Mind, Oct 03 2012 - 07:14 PM.

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#23 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 08:05 PM

Actually that bit is kind of odd. He apparently knocked out twelve beings with one swing of his sword. His weapon is big, but not that big. Even if the Matoran Resistance and the Toa were grouped up as close to each other as they could get, I don't think he could hit them all with one blow.
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#24 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 08:26 PM

Maybe it was the sheer force that he hit the first six beings with that caused them to crash into the next six? Maybe he could have hit the toa nuva so hard that simply them flying into the matoran resistance knocked them out as well.
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#25 Offline Toa Kopaka TJByrum

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 09:05 PM

So, I know this if off-topic, but it's the only place I know it'll get answered.Does Greg still update BIONICLEStory.com? If so, how often? If not, why?
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#26 Offline Zestanor

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 10:14 PM

-Not at the moment-Not for the forseeable future-He is not being paid to, and he is raising a child
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#27 Offline ~Shockwave~

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 10:16 PM

in theory, if the Piraka beat the Nuva and the Inika beat the Piraka. that would be the case, but it's not always that simple.if we take a look at the some elemental match ups, like the ones used in pokemon game, we can see some examples of how this can work. electricity would get smashed by rock, but water would destroy rock and be beaten by electricity. if we assume the situation works like to that then we can infer that the inika may have been able to play on a weakness that the nuva could, or did not.
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#28 Offline T.B.O.C

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 10:47 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet - Teridax was informing Zaktan (unknowningly to him) through his antidermis, which was one of the only reasons (stated in the book) that the Toa Nuva were recognized, being vastly different as Nuva. Teridax would also know the Nuva's weaknesses far better than Jaller & Co. as he had fought against them on several occasions, and not Jaller and Co. as Toa.
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#29 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 03 2012 - 11:30 PM

So, I know this if off-topic, but it's the only place I know it'll get answered.Does Greg still update BIONICLEStory.com? If so, how often? If not, why?

-Not at the moment-Not for the forseeable future-He is not being paid to, and he is raising a child

For the record, all topics opened in S&T get answers (I guarantee it ;)), so next time ask off-topic questions in new topics, please. :)

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#30 Offline Toa Kopaka TJByrum

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 08:30 AM

I can respect this:

-Not at the moment-Not for the forseeable future-He is not being paid to, and he is raising a child

Everything should go to raising a child first, I can understand.I just wish we weren't left hanging about what could be happening. Kopaka's my favorite Toa - favorite BIONICLE character for that matter - and I want to know more about what he and Pohatu are doing in the Red Star.

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#31 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 11:32 AM

Let's not forget we haven't been entirely left hanging -- Greg's been talking to us. :) We'd best not take it for granted.To the wish that he could have time to finish the serials, no arguments there, but life doesn't always go that way. And maybe he will eventually. ^_^Actually, I've been loving being left hanging in terms of all the details, personally. :P There's been tons of theorizing and all the sorts of stuff S&T is so fun for. If we just got everything rapidfire there wouldn';t be as much time to do it as in-depth (I know, I've watched this forum for most of the time when we were getting rapidfire story :)).
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#32 Offline Toa Kopaka TJByrum

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 11:40 AM

@bonesiii: And where exactly can I see what Greg is saying?
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#33 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 04 2012 - 02:32 PM

@bonesiii: And where exactly can I see what Greg is saying?

These topics. :)GB reveals.Red Star reveals.These were both reported in our frontpage news; if anything else major comes in I'm sure it'll be there too. :)

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#34 Offline Rooster Nui

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Posted Oct 21 2012 - 06:13 AM

The Toa Nuva were not prepared.
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#35 Offline Toa of Italy

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Posted Oct 21 2012 - 08:13 AM

Let's analyze the actual battles.In the first battle, Lewa, aided by Onua and Pohatu, defeated Reidak. However, that didn't do them much good because in the meantime Hakann defeated Gali, Avak defeated Kopaka and Zaktan Tahu. Onua then knocked Avak unconscious, but Hakann then used a mind blast to defeat both Lewa and Pohatu, and Onua finally fell before the combined efforts of Zaktan, Thok, Hakann and Vezok.In their second battle, a maskless Lewa forced Reidak to retreat outside the Piraka Stronghold, then the Toa Nuva reclaimed their Kanohi and then challenged a weakened and disunited team of Piraka, who were however saved by Brutaka, who downed all six Toa.The Toa Inika, on the other hand, first fought a lone Vezok, who temporarily downed both Matoro and Hahli before being defeated by Hewkii, Nuparu and Jaller.They then challenged the Piraka in the Stronghold. Nuparu beat Zaktan, Kongu Avak and Hewkii temporarily stalled Brutaka by burying him in the ground. None of the Toa Inika were defeated until Hakann and Thok stole Brutaka's powers and used them to beat everyone else.In the following fight, Hakann and Thok were up against six Toa and four Piraka. The two factions knocked each other out, except for Zaktan, who had got out of the way.In the battle by the Lava Chamber Gate, the Toa first forced the Piraka to retreat, but were then buried by the bridge Kongu accidentally collapsed.Finally, right after defeating Vezon and Kardas, the Toa Inika faced the Piraka again. Matoro froze Zaktan, while Hewkii blocked the other Piraka long enough for the Toa Inika to run after the Ignika.If we also want to include the battle between mutated Piraka and Toa Mahri, we can say that Jaller defeated Zaktan, but Avak would have then defeated all six Mahri had Axonn not saved them.Overall, it doesn't seem the Inika did that much better than the Nuva. In their first battles, they both defeated two Piraka. In the battle on the bridge, the Toa Inika were basically defeated by one of their own. The brief skirmish in the chamber of life, I think, doesn't count, as doesn't the battle with Hakann and Thok, since the Piraka didn't all fight against the Inika. And Axonn saved the Mahri from the Piraka just as Brutaka saved the Piraka from the Nuva.The one thing the Toa Inika did better than the Nuva was that they held out for longer against the Piraka and Brutaka, but then they knew what to expect, while the Nuva did not. For example, Hewkii knew to keep his distance from Brutaka and simply try to stall him, while the Nuva didn't and so got close enough for him to defeat all of them.The only thing that isn't very clear is the fact that the Nuva made no use of their secondary Kanohi Nuva in the first battle against the Piraka. Kopaka, for example, could have used his Mask of Shielding, which Avak hadn't seen yet and therefore couldn't guard against, to escape the Piraka's cage.
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#36 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 21 2012 - 10:34 AM

The only thing that isn't very clear is the fact that the Nuva made no use of their secondary Kanohi Nuva in the first battle against the Piraka. Kopaka, for example, could have used his Mask of Shielding, which Avak hadn't seen yet and therefore couldn't guard against, to escape the Piraka's cage.

First, I think the Nuva left the Kanohi Nuva on Metru Nui, save for the ones they were wearing...and the suva was out of range. Second, I don't think an energy bubble is going to help you escape an inferno. Wearing the shield might have helped him survive the cage, but I don't think it would help him escape.

Overall, it doesn't seem the Inika did that much better than the Nuva.

I would count retaining masks, not ending up as prisoners of the Piraka, freeing the Matoran on the island, missing a near-dip in a volcano, and actually getting to the Mask of Life as doing better. Now that might have been because of all the additional help and intel they got, like from Axxonn and the Matoran Resistance, but they still did better.

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#37 Offline Axonn's Fury

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Posted Oct 22 2012 - 09:28 AM

Toa of Italy summed it up quite well.And one major thing to keep in mind: if Bionicle wasn't based on year-by-year set releases, imagine just how different everything would be. Like Voya Nui, for example. The Toa Nuva would obvioulsy be the main heros, with the Inika helping out where, and how they can. Bare that in mind, as Greg F had to go along with the sets, and not how the story might have gone/how he imagined.- Taka
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#38 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Oct 22 2012 - 04:42 PM

Yeah, after reading the first two Legends books again, I'm starting to think a lot of it was situational (apparently, that's not a word but I DON'T CARE! http://www.bzpower.c...tyle_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif ) problems sincea. The Nuva had no clue what they were up against until they lost their masks and weapons.b. The Nuva still had no clue that Brutaka could make them all "half-dead" in a single blow.c. The Matoran Resistance told them what they were facing before their first major battle and planed their attack on the fortress out.d. They sort of had lightning powers and IMO, lightning and electricity always wins http://www.bzpower.c...tyle_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif.e. They had Axxon's help with the special zamor creation and keeping Brutaka out of the fight. (Why Axxon didn't help the Nuva out when they stormed the stronghold, I still have no clue.)So yeah...

Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon, Oct 22 2012 - 04:44 PM.

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#39 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Oct 23 2012 - 05:37 AM

The only thing that isn't very clear is the fact that the Nuva made no use of their secondary Kanohi Nuva in the first battle against the Piraka. Kopaka, for example, could have used his Mask of Shielding, which Avak hadn't seen yet and therefore couldn't guard against, to escape the Piraka's cage.

First, I think the Nuva left the Kanohi Nuva on Metru Nui, save for the ones they were wearing...and the suva was out of range.

Do Toa lose access to collected masks if they are too far away?

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#40 Offline VeoiTheRascal

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Posted Oct 23 2012 - 11:24 AM

The only thing that isn't very clear is the fact that the Nuva made no use of their secondary Kanohi Nuva in the first battle against the Piraka. Kopaka, for example, could have used his Mask of Shielding, which Avak hadn't seen yet and therefore couldn't guard against, to escape the Piraka's cage.

First, I think the Nuva left the Kanohi Nuva on Metru Nui, save for the ones they were wearing...and the suva was out of range.

Do Toa lose access to collected masks if they are too far away?

I think the question is would Toa lose access to collected masks if they are outside of the MU which their suva are in?

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