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The Fate of the Nui Stone

Nui Stone Tuyet Nidhiki

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#1 Online The Lorax

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 02:53 PM

so, in 2007, we learned that when the Nui stone was destryed by Lhikan, fragments of the crushed stone embedded themselves in Tuyet's armour, making her a living battery of toa power.All well and good, but when you go to The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet story, to the scene where the stone was destryed, who was standing nearest the stone as it split into shards? It wasn't Tuyet. Here's the scene.

Before the startled eyes of the Toa of Fire, Tuyet began to rise on a column of water. Higher and higher she climbed, until it seemed like she would be able to touch the stars themselves. And she was laughing, a thunderous, horrible sound that shattered Lhikan's hopes and beliefs like they were fragile things of crystal."I always knew she looked down on us, but this is ridiculous," said Nidhiki. "Are you up to putting a chill in her plans?"Lhikan didn't answer. Instead, he focused his energy on drawing all the heat out of the column of water on which Tuyet stood. The effects were immediate – water became ice. Before the Toa of Water could respond, Nidhiki had picked up a pole made of solid metallic Protodermis and swung it, smashing the pillar of ice to pieces.Stunned and thrown off-balance, Tuyet dropped the stone. Out of contact with it, her new powers abruptly vanished, and the sudden shock of such a loss stunned her. She fell. The stone fell. Lhikan watched them both, wondering which – if either – he should catch. He chose the Toa. Nidhiki was fine with that choice. He positioned himself under the Nui Stone, ready to snatch it out of the air. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Lhikan catch Tuyet. The Nui Stone came closer, closer … and then a blast of fire knocked it out of the air."No!" yelled Nidhiki, trying to grab it. But its surface was molten hot and he couldn't touch it for more than second. The stone hit the ground and splintered into a billion pieces, whose red glow flared and then faded for good."You --!" raged Nidhiki. "You stupid, moronic -- what's the matter with you?"Lhikan had encircled Tuyet with fiery chains. Although they did not touch her, she could not move without being burned, and they burned so white-hot that any moisture instantly evaporated on contact. With the destruction of the stone, the red glow had faded around her as well."Sorry, Nidhiki. My mistake," said Lhikan. "I seem to have made a lot of them lately."

So, when the stone hit the ground, Tuyet was in Lhikan's arms, held up off the ground. Of the three toa, she would have been the furthest from the site of impact. More crystals would likely have gone into Lhikan's Legs that her armour.But the real winner here is Nidhiki. He was right under the stone as it fell, trying to catch it. Lhikan and Tuyet might have been a few bio away, but he was right there. If the fragments were going to hit anyone, it would be him.So, what does this mean? If Tuyet got sprinkled with stone-dust, Lhikan and Nidhiki did too. They might also have been granted stone-powers, but they never realised it as Tuyet did. Without this knowledge, they weren't a threat, so Botar saw to reason to take them away to other dimensions. Taking one toa to interogate and study was enough, so he took the one who was a danger to the universe and easily corruptible by power. There wasn't much danger from Lhikan - he was the one who destroyed the stone, proving he was able to resist taking all that power for himself. Nidhiki is more questionable. Maybe at that stage he wasn't as curruptible as when he betryed everyone to the Dark Hunters, maybe the Order just didn't know he might later turn bad, or that he might have had some fragments in him too.An interesting irony is that, if the above was true, the Dark Hunters did actually get their claws on the Nui Stone, but they never knew it. They spent an awful lot of time and energy tracking the stone through its previous owners to Tuyet and trying to take it from her, but when Nidhiki actually joined the organisation in posession of the stone (or parts of it), nobody knew. It just sat there, sucking up toa power that would never be used.Tracking the fragments through history, those that hit Lhikan presumably survived his transformation into a Turaga, so he was buried with him in Metru Nui after he was killed by Teridax. Asuuming Nidhiki's also survived his transformation into an insectoid, they would have been absorbed along with the rest of him by the very same Makuta. Since the stone's power can only be tapped by toa, this effectively ends their usefulness, because nobody is going to try to draw power from the essence of Makut Teridax's essence and live to tell the tale, it that is even possible. It should be noted, however, that Teridax also went to a lot of trouble to recreate the stone from Tuyet's fragments, being completely unaware that he had passed up a much easier chance a thousand years before.So that's my theory, based on how the characters were positioned in that scene. It doesn't really change the story at all, but I find it interesting to think about this sort of thing.

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#2 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 03:12 PM

A fascinating point!But let's think it through more carefully, and not just assume that fragments did hit the others. Without looking too closely, it's certainly possible some did, but can we think of plausible explanations for how they wouldn't? Yes.First of all, I reject the premise that Lhikan is more likely than Tuyet -- forget Nidhiki for a moment.Chances are that to catch Tuyet and throw fire at the stone, Lhikan faced the stone, yes? This would mean when he caught Tuyet, he was holding her between his torso and the stone. His head would be farther and less likely. This leaves his limbs, but they would take up less statistical space than Tuyet, and half of his arms would likely be pointed at the stone (the forearms), thus presenting a smaller target. Also, only his hands would be likely to be closer to the stone than Tuyet's entire side. Just that small distance might provide enough air friction to slow down fragments so they would only bounce off his legs rather than embed themselves, yet they could still be going fast enough to embed in Tuyet.However, you raise a good point about the lower legs and feet. Since the stone is level with them when it hits, you might think they would be closer and more likely to be hit. Tuyet would, at least, be about the same distance away.But if you actually study how ground explosions typically go, they usually do not cast over the lower range at certain distances with the high-velocity fragments. Basically, the ground may be uneven, and the stone may have fallen in a slight dip, so the ground itself would block the lowest ones. These would tend to bounce back up, slowing down enough to not embed, or going too high to hit his feet/lower legs. This is especially so when the 'explosion' is a solid (heated) object that has hit the ground when falling directly down. All the fragments tend to bounce up and away, rather than radiating uniformly in all directions.This leaves Nidhiki.He's the sort of person, I think, who if he really did have these fragments in him, he would notice. His line immediately after it already shows this, and we know of course that he became a Dark Hunter. It's possible he didn't notice in that amount of time, though, and that Roodaka's transformation of him destroyed the fragments. Depends on how tiny the fragments are, I'd say.But it's also simply possible there was a rock or some such thing between where the Nui Stone hit and Nidhiki, so that he was entirely shielded from the spray.It's also possible the red glow being both in the stone and Tuyet may have acted similar to magnetics and pulled some fragments towards her, though there's no other evidence of that. Or perhaps the red glows enabled only those fragments hitting her to embed while all the others would have bounced off.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 12 2012 - 03:19 PM.

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#3 Online The Lorax

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 03:53 PM

Lhikan: Yeah, fair enough. There are a lot of variables around this that could have directed the fragments more away from Lhikan and towards Tuyet. We don't know nearly enough about the ground shape, how fast the stone was travelling, how it shattered or what properties the fragments had in terms of size, flight speed and armour-penetrating power to say exactly what did or did not happen. I'd tend to think the ground was pretty flat, as this all happened outside Tuyet's house, on a Ga-Metru street with pavement and everything. I did earlier assume a more-or less even distribution of fragments flying away from the point of impact, but you make a good point that that may not have been the case. I guess you learn something everyday. :)All these variables aside, however, I find it difficult to believe that an appreciable amount of fragments went into Tuyet but none into Lhikan when they were so close together. For the reasons you pointed out, there may not have been as many, but I think at least a few going into him is a reasonable assumption.Nidhiki: Yes, again it would be possible to design circumstances to ensure that he didn't get a dose of stone-fragments, but then again, there's nothing to say there was something in the way, or that magnetism was drawing fragments away, or anything else either. With next to no evidence either way, it's difficult to say anything really.About his personality, yes, he was clever and didn't hold the three virtues as tight as some other heroes, but I think there was a lot more allowing for Tuyet to guess at what had happened than Nidhiki. Remember, he wasn't there when Nidhiki explained the stone's powers to Lhikan: he only arrived once Tuyet had started using it. Given this, he knew almost nothing about the stone, except that Tuyet was using it to gain immense power and whatever Lhikan told him afterwards (which likely wasn't much, given that he deliberately kept the stone out of Nidhiki's hands in the scene we're discussing). Tuyet had had the stone for at least 500 years by this point, probably more. She knew all about it and how it worked, and had Botar to tell her that her suspicions were correct. Nidhiki simply didn't have the knowledge to deduce what having fragments in him would mean.
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#4 Offline Click

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 04:20 PM

Very good points. I hadn't thought about that, but I guess I only ever read the Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet once. I guess Nidhiki probably didn't know that he got sprayed, or prefered to keep it a secret as a strategic advantage later that he never got to use. He's a lot less knowledgable about the stone, and Botar had to tell Tuyet (unless, as said before, it just confirmed her suspicions), so it seems likely getting pelted with the stones was a painless experience or something, or just that Nidhiki assumed that the stone just bounced off, and didn't take into account how fast the shards were going or how hot they were.And what about the rest of the surrounding area? Couldn't there be shards lodged in houses or something that would be up for grabs by anyone who knew what they were looking for?
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#5 Online The Lorax

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 04:23 PM

And what about the rest of the surrounding area? Couldn't there be shards lodged in houses or something that would be up for grabs by anyone who knew what they were looking for?

Probably, yes. Though the only beings who new what they were looking for and where to look were Lhikan, Nidhiki, Tuyet, and the Order. I guess that Botar would have taken a dustpan to the street and disposed of all the fragments after he took Tuyet away. Lhikan and Nidhiki were probably too busy dealing with a rogue toa.

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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 04:35 PM

Well, I just thought of an even simpler explanation. Notice what it says about how Lhikan kept Tuyet from fighting free -- the question I would need answered is if he did this before or after the stone shattered. Key part in bold and keyword in italics:

Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Lhikan catch Tuyet. The Nui Stone came closer, closer … and then a blast of fire knocked it out of the air."No!" yelled Nidhiki, trying to grab it. But its surface was molten hot and he couldn't touch it for more than second. The stone hit the ground and splintered into a billion pieces, whose red glow flared and then faded for good."You --!" raged Nidhiki. "You stupid, moronic -- what's the matter with you?"Lhikan had encircled Tuyet with fiery chains. Although they did not touch her, she could not move without being burned, and they burned so white-hot that any moisture instantly evaporated on contact.

Let's hypothesize that in order for the particles to be embedded in metal armor, it wasn't so much about impact velocity but about "stickiness" -- that the particles plus the armor both had to be heated, so that the hot particles touching would increase the temperature of that spot of the armor just enough that it would slightly liquefy on the surface, allowing the particle to be "glued" in.Tuyet's armor could easily be heated near the point needed for this, while Nidhiki's obviously is not, and Lhikan has elemental heat resistance. It sounds to me like he did this as soon as he caught her, or else she could have knocked his mask off or the like.Any particles passing close enough to these chains would also be heated a lot more than they were, increasing the likelihood of a "sticky" scenario on impact.This may be enough to explain why they embedded only in her armor. Plus the things I mentioned earlier could have also played a role, at least in Lhikan's case. I do think it's reasonable to assume there was no object blocking Nidhiki from it, but it's also easily possible. But the only part of him likely to be hot enough would be his hands since he apparently tried to catch it, and the particles would be cooled a bit by the air by the time they hit, versus heated up by passing close to the fiery chains in Tuyet's case.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 12 2012 - 04:37 PM.

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#7 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Sep 12 2012 - 05:19 PM

That makes perfect sense. But I think the Order wanted Tuyet because she was a criminal anyway and needed to be locked up. Being able to study her was just another upside, even though she didn't have as much of the stone in her as the other two did. Not to mention, the Order probably didn't know which Toa had been most exposed to it, so they just assumed Tuyet.
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#8 Online The Lorax

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Posted Sep 14 2012 - 03:50 AM

This may be enough to explain why they embedded only in her armor. Plus the things I mentioned earlier could have also played a role, at least in Lhikan's case. I do think it's reasonable to assume there was no object blocking Nidhiki from it, but it's also easily possible. But the only part of him likely to be hot enough would be his hands since he apparently tried to catch it, and the particles would be cooled a bit by the air by the time they hit, versus heated up by passing close to the fiery chains in Tuyet's case.

That's a surprisingly good explanation. It fits perfectly with everything else and doesn't rely on adding a combination of other circumstances to make it work. It's all there in the scene and it explains perfectly why things turned out like they did. Big props, Bones.EDIT: Actually, after thinking about it a bit more, I'm not so sure. The issue is whether Lhikan would have had time to catch Tuyet, put her down and then create the chains before the stone hit the ground. I know real world physics don't apply in BIONICLE when it's convenient, but as far as we know, gravity still works about the same, so objects dropped from a large height still fall at the same rate, save for tiny variations caused by air resistance.The objects in question here, are Tuyet and the stone. Both were at the same height when Nidhiki broke the pillar and they lost contact with each other. From here, they both fell to the ground, and so should have hit at aproximately the same time. The stone might have been slowed down a bit by Nidhiki's trying to catch it as it slipped through his hands, but I can't see this adding any more the a second to the time it was in the air.That second would have been all the time Lhikan had to do the above actions before the stone hit the ground and pieces went flying into Tuyet, and I don't think it would have been enough.In other words, I think the sequence of events went like this.
  • Pillar breaks
  • Tuyet and stone fall.
  • Nidhiki tries to catch the stone, Lhikan catches Tuyet
  • Stone hits the ground and shatters
  • Fragments go flying
  • Lhikan puts Tuyet down and creates flaming chains
  • Nidhiki delivers his expostulation
That wouldn't allow for the fragments and Tuyet's armour to be heated as in line with your elegant solution. That's too bad. :confused:

Edited by The Lorax, Sep 14 2012 - 04:02 AM.

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 14 2012 - 09:04 AM

The issue is whether Lhikan would have had time to catch Tuyet, put her down and then create the chains before the stone hit the ground.

I meant, it appears he created them immediately as he caught her. Notice the "had". If he didn't, she could have immediately attacked him before he could set her down. And no reason he couldn't; as a Toa of Fire he has heat resistance and they create fire next to them all the time. So I'm thinking he was still holding her in his arms when this occured. :)

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#10 Offline CaptainLepidus

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Posted Sep 14 2012 - 10:03 AM

This theory is actually really interesting. Setting aside the question of whether they'd actually hit Nidhiki and assuming they did, what kind of influence could that have had? Is it possible the Nui Stone subconsciously corrupted Nidhiki? Obviously, he wasn't exactly a perfect Toa even before the Tuyet incident, but maybe the Nui Stone caused him to betray his friends.Or, even more interestingly, what if he DID know? What if he had decided not to reveal his powers for as long as possible so he could choose the opportune moment? That could be why he was so angry when he was transformed into not being a Toa; he could no longer use the vast amount of power of the Nui Stone.
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#11 Online Toa of Gallifrey

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Posted Sep 14 2012 - 08:15 PM

Wow, that's really interesting. To think Makuta had it in front of him all this time and never knew. I find it a bit unlikely that he wouldn't have sensed it though.
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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 14 2012 - 11:44 PM

This theory is actually really interesting. Setting aside the question of whether they'd actually hit Nidhiki and assuming they did, what kind of influence could that have had? Is it possible the Nui Stone subconsciously corrupted Nidhiki? Obviously, he wasn't exactly a perfect Toa even before the Tuyet incident, but maybe the Nui Stone caused him to betray his friends.Or, even more interestingly, what if he DID know? What if he had decided not to reveal his powers for as long as possible so he could choose the opportune moment? That could be why he was so angry when he was transformed into not being a Toa; he could no longer use the vast amount of power of the Nui Stone.

Subconsciously that's probably plausible, but if he consciously knew I think he'd have ranked that over his repulsion to the insectoid form.

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#13 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Sep 14 2012 - 11:54 PM

I don't think the Nui Stone actually corrupts people in that way. It's not the One Ring. It's just the temptation to use that power is too great -- a Toa could become a tyrant, as Tuyet did in the Dark Mirror universe. I doubt if Nidhiki had fragments in him but didn't know, it would influence his decisions. And if he did know, and if his transformation destroyed the shards, that would have been mentioned in Birth of a Dark Hunter.Still, this is an interesting subject, if a bit of a nitpick -- Greg probably wasn't thinking of this in such detail. But hey, we're the fans, this stuff is our job. :P I like the idea that Lhikan's chains of fire made it so that the fragments were only imbedded within Tuyet, except I think if he heated her armor enough to soften it, it would hurt her. I know Toa can endure much more than normal beings can, but metal has to get pretty darn hot for it to get soft. She'd be pretty uncomfortable, to say the least. Lhikan was trying to make it so that she couldn't move without getting burned, but not burn her if she remained still. But what if the shards were slightly melted so they were, uh, sticky, instead of her armor?
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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 15 2012 - 10:24 AM

But what if the shards were slightly melted so they were, uh, sticky, instead of her armor?

Yeah, I thought of that, but the problem is that Greg confirmed they were embedded in her armor. I don't mean to say Lhikan heated her armor enough to actually be softer on its own, but that as the particles heat up passing near the chains, and then hit (plus a little impact heat) they would heat up just that spot of armor to be soft. Whereas this wouldn't work for the other two.

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