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[Update 10/17] Red Star Revelations


Erebus

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The new info on Velika's motives is very interesting. It does seem to invalidate the theory that Velika's goals was to get the murdered beings to the Red Star. It seems more and more likely he's killing them permanently so he can get them out of the way. I thought it was possible they were a part of his plan, but it seems he's removing them for the sake of carrying out his plan. If Velika intended for the murdered beings to return to the Red Star, then they could've still been a threat. I think this pretty much confirms that MU beings outside of the Red Star don't get sent there when they die. Like bonesii said in another topic, it's possible that TK sent that telepathic message so that he can be revived in time, assuming the Red Star's Reviver is broken, but still....I have a list of reasons I think the Red Star teleporter doesn't work on SM, correct me if I get anything wrong:1. The Kestora seemed to think that with the MU's destruction, it wasn't possible to send anyone back, because apparently there wasn't anywhere to send them back to. This seems ti imply the teleportation system only works in the MU; it makes sense, since if anyone ever left the MU bot, the GBs would probably not care very much about reviving a rogue unit.2. The GBs built Marendar to kill Toa if they ever escaped onto the surface of SM; if the Toa were to be revived, what was the point? They couldn't have known the Red Star would malfunction and the teleportation system would bust.Also, an important question is, does Velika know that something's wrong with the Red Star?Of course, after seeing that people like Jovan and other Matoran never came back, Velika might have guessed that eithera. The Send system was not operating.b. The Reviver wasn't operatingc. The Send Back operator wasn't working.But then, Velika doesn't seem to value lives very much, assuming he guessed the Kestora began killing revived beings. He did seem like a good guy when he was assisting the Toa Inika, but then he was saving himself in the end by helping save Mata Nui. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any connection between Velika and what's happening in the Red Star, but both were featured in the same serial, so they're probably connected. I'm suspecting now that Velika does not care about the star and that it might not be a factor in his plans at all. The message Tren Krom sent was probably meant to hint something about his murderer, though, since he probably saw Velika before he killed him. It probably was a coincidence that Gaardus happened to be there. Another thing; what's Lesovikk's role in all this? How did Velika gain access to his sword? Why was Lesovikk going on about getting Karzahni when he already decided in the 2007 story that Karzahni, in his crazed state, was no longer a threat? Does Velika have shapeshifting capabilities? A lot of things aren't fitting together. At least to me. :P

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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EDIT: 4000th post! Whoop!

The thing is, that meaning of rules has been done. It's quite common in crime thriller fiction. But I always thought of Bionicle as something beyond that, and I'd hope it's not just that. Compared to the innovative twists and plans of villains in past stories, to just copy off of that formula would by comparison be pretty boring IMO. Killing to send them to the RS to begin taking over its hyperdrive would be something beyond, at least (and then who knows what he would want to do when he gets where he wants to go with it). :shrugs:
I know it's common; and while BIONICLE did tend to be original in some ways, remember that the story has ended and the final serials were halfway rushed too. Precisely because it's common is why I consider simple murder to be more likely; but I would be happy with a more elaborate plot. I just don't view the Red Star as a hyperdrive, I suppose. Velika hi-jacking it (or reclaiming it, whatever) just to shoot off wherever isn't too exciting either, unless that would make the actual Great Being population appear. As it is, Angonce, Velika and the imprisoned one are the only other living ones we've seen, and I can't remember if it was stated where the others would go while Mata Nui did his work? Did they leave the planet during the Shattering, or did they seek their refuge on one of the resulting pieces?
I'm surprised that you draw the conclusion of insanity from that reaction, since there is nothing insane about it.
I wouldn't call it a conclusion but a possibility; a theory with evidence. The first one, at least, is clearly showing memory loss. That is one possible symptom of insanity, though it can obviously have other causes (and Bionicle has depicted many before).
Is it memory loss as much as genuine confusion, though? All they say is that the last time someone were in the Star and did not want to leave, they had to "end them". Then they blame Gaardus for the Red Star not working, express surprise at lerning that Mata Nui is dead, and then finally they speak of dissection before Kopaka freeze them solid. Nothing there to make me think they are insane or suffering from memory loss; just that they are a bit put off by having others waltzing around their space station and also incapable of fixing the trouble even after thousands of years.
It brings to mind the promo image for Bara Magna, though: Matoro in the desert. Even if that was just a mock-up, it could have been a way of introducing the Red Star's function, by having Matoro wake up, dazed, on Bara Magna, and have him explore it instead of Mata Nui.
That was never meant to be Matoro; it was a prototype Mata Nui with Kanohi Ignika. Could make for a cool fanfic though. ^^,
I know, I'm just letting my mind wander. :) Speaking of fan-fics, I got one with Lehvak-Kal hitting the Red Star after floating around in space. I had the Kestora smack-talk him, fix him up a bit and beam him down to Spherus Magna, heh.
But again, I think we all agree we hope it would have been done in such a style as not to feel forced or plot devicey, etc. I really think the solution to that was largely already shown with Mavrah saying there's a lot of unhappy people up here, etc. -- the story was already setting it up as a problem to play around with in plot rather than just a magical "hey they're not dead!"
And that's why I'm happy the few lines we got describe the thing as not working properly at all; it makes things so much more interesting than a "respawn system". I once read a fan-fic for Team Fortress 2, where the (fan-theorized) respawn machinery had a malfunction. In the game, you never hear anything about how respawning works, but in this fan-fic it was basically a "body/mind backup" that upon death would make your body dissolve and be recreated at a respawn location via some sort of teleportation effect. However, one machine accidentally got damaged by a rat, and so the poor Sniper (who no-one noticed until much later because he sleeps alone in his camper van) didn't have his proper respawn set. Instead, a new backup was made the moment he died... including the stab wound that killed him. And so he kept bleeding to death over and over in his van, because that was his set respawn as well. I found that story very interesting, as it explored how people could feel about dying when they can just revive: It was described as painful and unpleasant, but only terrifying for the first few times, after which the machine became routine and non-killing injuries became more of a hassle.It's funny, isn't it? If someone knows they can just respawn whenever, I could see that someone shooting themselves dead when they break their foot just to shorten the healing period.
I want to note that I felt the revivals were badly done back then, and I'd prefer them not to be canon if it was up to me.
Jaller's revival was largely embraced on here. :) I'm sure not everyone liked it, but then 'many' didn't like the move to Metru Nui, and pretty much you name it from there. :P I got the vibe from Kahi's post and others like his that they were trying to make more than a purely taste-based argument. Badly done -- does that mean it's based on taste, or something in how it was done. We've all agreed they can be done well, but isn't there taste in that too?
It was embraced? Jaller died to rescue Takua (which also gave him a relevation), and that worked for me. His revival just a short time later felt forced, because even though it was touching to see Takua/Takanuva care to do that with his final strength, it was not something I'd have expected anyone in BIONICLE to be able to do at all. Where the power came from wasn't explained well enough, I felt, since Vakama then proceeded to fix Takanuva with seemingly no trouble at all. He just walked over to the magic floor markings and revived him with some mumbo-jumbo about unity. I'm fairly certain that's why the novelization just skipped the whole scene with Takanuva being revived from his mask.
I do think there's something 'human rather than taste' that's closer to, if not, universal in most things that writers can tap into, which I think is what we're trying to discuss towards. But what exactly that is, and whether that can be defined down is an issue, methinks. Generally it's better for fiction to just go for it in what feels right, and see if fans like it or not, in my experience. Worrying too much about artificial rules tends to make the writing less enjoyable, both for author and fans, so to argue for them and then act like this is an argument for better writing... it just doesn't compute, based on experience, not just of me but of countless professional writers who have written books on the matter, professors of creative writing, etc.
Sometimes established rules are required for a story to sit right, though.In the first Mass Effect, they have essentially infinite ammo because of vaguely-described mass effect fields in their guns, which shave off and accelerate tiny particles from a metal block inside. Makes no sense, but it's fine, it's established. Thus we wouldn't care if Commander Shepard shoots a hundred shots in a row out of his pistol, because we know it doesn't need reloading. In the sequel, however, "heat sinks" are used as an ammo-equivalent. The guns still have infinte ammo, but the cooldown mechanism works exactly like regular ammo would, with Shepard ejecting the heated object and inserting a new one instead of letting it cool down over time like in the first game. In this game, therefore, we would protest if he fires too many shots.If no explanation had been given in the first, we could just assume that the sci-fi tech doesn't need ammo and be fine with it. It breaks with reality, but it's not something that breaks the story. However, having his gun suddenly run out when it hadn't before (or making an enemy shoot people dead in a sequel cutscene with a "bottomless" pistol magazine), that would break Willing Suspension of Disbelief.In Order of the Stick, some people care when people die and others act casually, because resurrection spells exist and are available to high-level casters. Such a caster plus a good sum of money can bring your dead friend back, for example. This is a series driven very much by D&D rules, but it still breaks them a bit when the plot calls for it. However, breaking them completely, all the time, would likely not sit well with the fanbase, who have come to expect such rules to be in play. Thus, it's fine for Vaarsuvius to reveal a new spell by casting it directly at his (her?) latest enemy and saving the day, but it's not OK for V to cast his previously known spells more times than she (he?) has spell slots for.In Fullmetal Alchemist, resurrection is impossible, but getting "semi-killed" or "losing your body" or "detaching your spirit" are ways of being essentially dead and coming back, all on vague wording and half-defined "alchemy" abilities and some willpower. This works, because it's always explained with some reference to the core theory of alchemy in this series: "equivalent exchange". When dealing with spirits, however, this "equality" runs on "whatever the plot demands". I'm fine with that too.In Gurren Lagann, Simon can make himself and his mech create a spontaneous wormhole due to sheer force of will. He uses this extreme new technique to punch a would-be suicider in the face, having magically determined exactly where he would be. This also works, because the theme of the series is "do the impossible, see the invisible, row row, fight da powah! Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable, row row, fight the powah!" and it's explicitly stated that willpower can do anything.Having BIONICLE suddenly introduce a way of reviving characters is fine, so long as it's written properly. That's where taste comes in. Some might think it's cool just by the Red Star being revealed as the thing that makes it work, while others will demand more of an explanation and exceptional writing to justify dead characters returning. So I guess my paragraphs above were unecessary, because bottim line is that I agree: it's all up to taste; but established rules or feel of the plot needs to be there for the taste to appeal to as many as possible. Like food, some dishes appeal to many and some are just for the specially interested.
Well, here's an alternate explanation for the Tren Krom choice, running with that. Maybe he does want some of the most powerful ones destroyed before the Reviver is fixed, and maybe the waiting queue idea is wrong -- so it's either you get revived or not. Choosing TK would be merely because he's Psionic, and could lure K&P up there with Gaardus near. TK could, as you said, merely think of the RS because he knows it's normally where dead beings were supposed to go -- and I think it's likely he does go, but maybe since the Reviver isn't fixed yet, his pattern fades away before he can be revived.Alternatively, he doesn't go at all but that psionic thought lures the Toa up, and they may still figure out how to fix the Reviver.Then, Velika slows down and "at his leisure" takes down less powerful beings -- either on SM, or chooses those who are in the giant robot helping to evacuate things if it does only work there -- and only these less powerful beings are used to take over the RS, so there's less powerful beings left to oppose him should they figure it all out.This would explain this part:<quote here>So it could be both -- he wants to eliminate the most powerful, which is why he puts them in one group in his mind, and he could have another purpose involving the revival system for "the rest". This would make sense both of the choice of Tren Krom and of these statements.
Works for me. Eliminate the most powerful, use the rest for some other purpose. He did mention in his thoughts that the Toa Mata/Nuva would die sometime in the future at his will, but that they were still needed and could not be wasted yet.

Edited by Katuko
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I just wanted to say that I am really happy with all this new canon starting to show up! I'm new so could somebody tell me how to get the spoilers up?
You could either click the 'Special BBCode' and select 'spoiler' as your choice, then write whatever you want to post, or you could simply type 'spoiler' withbrackets around it at the beginning of whatever you want to post and put

at the end of it.

Edited by Toa Smoke Monster

Everyone is one choice away from being the bad guy in another person's story.


 


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toa kopaka4372, I agree the theory that the Receiver only works from the giant robot seems the most plausible now, and your reasons seem logical.Of course, let's not forget that the giant robot isn't gone, despite Pohatu's claim. He may not have meant to make an exact statement. It hasn't collapsed yet and as we saw at the start of the serial, teams are still working on getting things and people out. The Kestora's statement that there's nowhere to send them doesn't seem accurate to me. However, this is irrelevant to the theory that it would only work for the giant robot, not for SM.It could be, though, that there's a collector system in the giant robot that transmits to the RS, and that is now broken since the giant robot battle. Which I presume would not be the same breaking Greg and the Kestora were referring to about the Sender thing; that would have happened earlier. Etc.Still, the theory that it could pull in any dead spirit in range is not disproven, just seems to be more evidence against it now than for it.However, I still think it would have made more sense for it to protect beings travelling outside it, since doing so does not necessarily make them rogue -- like the Toa Nuva. Of course, maybe that was never intended; the canisters were a later invention after all. :shrugs:And the Marendar thing -could- be explained if it simply would collect whatever the teleporter normally collects. But yeah... less likely.

Another thing; what's Lesovikk's role in all this? How did Velika gain access to his sword? Why was Lesovikk going on about getting Karzahni when he already decided in the 2007 story that Karzahni, in his crazed state, was no longer a threat? Does Velika have shapeshifting capabilities?
I was thinking that Velika's thought-hint about his original assumption that he'd be playing a strategy game where the pawns in it don't see his hand at work applies to Lesovikk. For one thing, he starts out by saying someone let Karzahni go. I bet that was Velika, to get Lesovikk started so he could frame him.I do think as many have said that killing Karzahni fits the "way deviated" revelation, but that may have been a killing-two-birds-with-one-stone thing to also frame Lesovikk, while others like Tren Krom are Velika's real targets.
I just don't view the Red Star as a hyperdrive, I suppose
Well, it's also possible there's a place somewhere else in the same star system he could want to go to, where this plan would be carried out. But I do agree it seems unlikely now. It seems there is a goal on Spherus Magna now, either formed by him or the other GBs, that involves a bunch of MU inhabitants.
unless that would make the actual Great Being population appear
Well, that's what I originally had in mind. :) They might be on another planet in the same system too, in something like a space base, space station, who knows (assuming there isn't another habitable one there).Could just be confusion, yeah, with the Kestora. But there -is- evidence of memory loss. The second one said:
No,” said another. “Don’t you remember what happened the last time? They wouldn’t go back and we had to --”
Which later was defined, apparently, as:
But if it doesn’t work, do we need to end them like the other ones?”
Don't you think it's a bit odd that the first one forgets that they can't go back to begin with, plus even forgets that they murdered people because of that in the past?Later, the same sort of thing happens again, when they've had plenty of time to get over their initial shock:
“Mata Nui is so much junk in the Bara Magna desert by now,” said Pohatu. “You guys must not get out much.”“If that’s true, then we can’t send them back,” said the first Kestora. “There is nowhere to send them back to.”“Well, they can’t stay here,” said the second firmly. “We have too many as it is.”“We could keep them,” suggested the third. “Maybe a dissection would tell us why they can’t go back. Of course, we tried that before, and all we wound up with was a mess … a lot of messes, actually … but maybe this time --”
The first one is back to forgetting they couldn't send anyone back anyways. And the third suggests dissection as if it's a new idea, then reminds himself they've tried it before to no avail.The confusion interpretation is certainly possible, and I think there would have to be some of it, but surely this is at least evidence for a theory that they have a forgetfulness tendency.
His revival just a short time later felt forced, because even though it was touching to see Takua/Takanuva care to do that with his final strength, it was not something I'd have expected anyone in BIONICLE to be able to do at all.
Well since when was it good for stories only to do what we expect? I didn't see it coming either and that's why it was so awesome. :)
Where the power came from wasn't explained well enough, I felt, since Vakama then proceeded to fix Takanuva with seemingly no trouble at all.
Well, there's a whole 'nother subject there about when something should be explained. I thought it was pretty obvious that the fusion of light and shadow in one being was having a much more powerful effect than we realized was possible. Seemed poetically fitting too, since Jaller was being brought back from the shadow of death to the light of life. And we'd already had sub-powers in the elemental masks for those two, to establish the principle.More detailed explanations came later, clearing up most remaining questions but leaving some still mysterious, which now seems tied to this somehow.Basically, why must everything always be explained right away? We didn't get the explanations for most things in the story like elemental powers, mask powers, Makuta's 'nothing' statement, etc. until later either. In fact some people chafed against getting them, lol.There's taste in it all.
In the first Mass Effect, they have essentially infinite ammo because of vaguely-described mass effect fields in their guns, which shave off and accelerate tiny particles from a metal block inside. Makes no sense, but it's fine, it's established.
That's an in-story fictional physics rule. We're talking about an out-story ban on the universe being allowed to have certain features. (Also, that explanation seems to make sense to me... I could explain it in more detail plausibly just from that and I know nothing else about ME. :P (Apparently mass can be transmitted to other particles and pulled in from a surrounding Higgs field, similar to zero point energy, backed up by the recent Higgs apparent confirmation.))
However, having his gun suddenly run out when it hadn't before (or making an enemy shoot people dead in a sequel cutscene with a "bottomless" pistol magazine), that would break Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
Again, that's in-story. In-story here, it makes perfect sense that attached spirits, AI, whatever could by various means be revived, esp. since it's happened and been explained before with Jaller. So there's no in-story contradiction. That wasn't Kahi's argument, but rather that he doesn't want the finality of death to be removed by revival, based on his tastes.
Having BIONICLE suddenly introduce a way of reviving characters is fine, so long as it's written properly. That's where taste comes in. Some might think it's cool just by the Red Star being revealed as the thing that makes it work, while others will demand more of an explanation and exceptional writing to justify dead characters returning. So I guess my paragraphs above were unecessary, because bottim line is that I agree: it's all up to taste; but established rules or feel of the plot needs to be there for the taste to appeal to as many as possible. Like food, some dishes appeal to many and some are just for the specially interested.
Lol, alright. :)

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Wow, thanks

Quote“Mata Nui is so much junk in the Bara Magna desert by now,” said Pohatu. “You guys must not get out much.”“If that’s true, then we can’t send them back,” said the first Kestora. “There is nowhere to send them back to.”“Well, they can’t stay here,” said the second firmly. “We have too many as it is.”“We could keep them,” suggested the third. “Maybe a dissection would tell us why they can’t go back. Of course, we tried that before, and all we wound up with was a mess … a lot of messes, actually … but maybe this time --”Woah! could they have dissected some matoran from, say, the Matoran Civil War or the Mahri Nui matoran (those that got eaten or drowned)?

Edited by bonesiii
Fixing spoiler tag. :) -bones

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@bonesii, that's a good observation about Velika framing Lesovikk. However, it doesn't explain how Velika gained access to Lesovikk's sword, or why Lesovikk was seen continuing his quest by Gali without his sword; how did Lesovikk not notice he lost his sword, and if he did, why did he just continue?I looked through The Powers That Be carefully and made a few observations.

“Maybe that’s the problem,” said Kopaka. “He felt he was justified. Karzahni was an abomination, after all. But fighting monsters is what we do. If we start thinking we have good reason to kill them, and we do it, then we become no better than they are. We’re meant to be defenders, not executioners.”
This seems to be a foreshadowing of Velika's motivations/plans whatever. Greg said the murderer didn't see his plan as evil, after all.
For his part, Kopaka was focusing on the murder. All the evidence pointed in one direction, but what if it wasn’t the right direction? Sure, Lesovikk had means, motive and opportunity to kill Karzahni, but so did a lot of others. For that matter, what if this wasn’t about Karzahni, not personally?Pohatu didn’t get where his friend was going. “Someone stabbed him with a sword and pushed him over a cliff. How is that not personal?”Kopaka shrugged. “I don’t know. It’s simply … what if it wasn’t about something Karzahni had done, so much as what he represented?”
I found this whole part quite interesting. It might give us hints for what else Velika is planning.
Nothing could prepare either Toa for what happened next. A scream ripped through their minds, one made up of pure agony and something more … complete shock. The mental cry was so powerful both Toa fell from their mounts, hands covering their audio receptors. That did no good.
The words 'complete shock' caught my attention. Why was Tren Krom so shocked at his time of death? Was it the fact that ke knew he was going to die right then? Or was it that he was shocked by Velika's true identity, since I assume his telepathic powers would've informed him that Velika was a GB. Assuming that beings outside the MU do not get revived, then Tren Krom had no reason to send an image of the Red Star to anyone in the vicinity; it wouldn't have helped him either way. Yet Tren Krom must've sent the dying message for a reason. I'm curious, though; wouldn't Velika have gotten the telepathic message?
Pohatu shook his head. “Lesovikk didn’t kill him. At least, I don’t think so. Lesovikk was angry at Karzahni, out for revenge, but he wasn’t insane. Whoever did this … well, let’s just say there were cleaner ways to get rid of Tren Krom.”
I wonder if this is meant to hint that Velika is insane? Could be. Pohatu does have a point, though. Moreso, Velika's especially brutal method of murdering Karzahni seem to indicate to me that he did it with extra force, with extra passion. It seems to imply that Velika either has some personal grudge against him, or he's just insane and wants to have fun as he kills. The latter's pretty disturbing.
Kopaka crouched down to examine the remains. “That’s true. Plus we have to ask, who could have gotten close enough to Tren Krom to do this? His mind was strong enough to sense another intellect even at long range, as I understand it.”“Maybe someone he trusted?” asked Pohatu.Kopaka stood and looked around the forest. It felt oppressively still. “I doubt he trusted many, if anyone at all. But consider this: he was supposed to be physically bound to his island in our old universe, unable to move. But when the Order of Mata Nui agents went to retrieve him, he was gone. Next thing we know, he’s here, and dead.”
Why did let Tren Krom let Velika near him? What I think is that Velika was waiting for him, since according to Gaardus TK was killed shortly after his appearance.
“I tried to see,” said the creature. “But he knew I was there. A howling wind knocked me from my watching spot and broke many limbs off the trees. By the time I touched the sky again, he was gone.”“I scouted around,” said Pohatu. “I saw no tracks coming in or out of this area.”
Very interesting stuff here. Velika knew that Gaardus was at the scene, and yet he did not bother killing him. This does show that Velika is only going after specified targets. However, this brings us back to my earlier question, if Velika heard TK's telepathic scream, what did he do about it and why doesn't he seem worried that others heard it? Velika knew Gaardus was there, and he must've known that Gaardus got the scream with the red star, and yet he didn't worry at all about either. This proves to me that the Red Star doesn't interest Velika or reveal his plans; this is something TK wanted others to interpret and act upon, but velika didn't see it as a threat to his plans.Something else- Pohatu said there were no footprints. This seems to imply that Velika has a method of getting around that involves Teleportation. It would explain how he's moving from Iron Canyon to the forest to the fortress. Contrary to this, though, is that it took Kopaka and Pohatu several days to get where Velika got. If Velika could get around instantly, why wait?
“The one you call Tren Krom appeared in the forest, from nowhere,” Gaardus began, speaking slowly and carefully. “He was … confused. He could move, but not very far or very fast. I was going to hunt, but his mind touched mine, and it hurt. Then … there was someone else, and the winds came, and I saw the star, and …”
So TK teleported to the forest. The fact that he was confused seems to show that Tren Krom had not meant to appear there. Couple this with the likely observation that Velika was waiting for him and you get the conclusion that Tren Krom was freed somehow by Velika and taken to that specific location. However, Kopaka's line about the OoMN seems to imply that Tren Krom has been absent for a little while. Where was he in that time?I'll get back to this later, need to go.

Edited by toa kopaka4372

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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There is something I am wondering about...

If someone dies then do they come back with any memories? If not then you could argue that their death is permanent in a philosophical sense because they probably are not going to redevelop into the person you knew. Consider Matoro, assuming that you are still sent there after you achieve your destiny, if he is revived there with no memories then it really is not that cheapened because he is nothing like the Matoro that we see in the 2001-2008 story arcs and has no memories of his toa team or anyone he has met, but this is an example based on the speculation listed above. Thoughts?

But like I said, why would the GBs design a system to erase all the experiences that led up to a person sacrificing themselves for the greater good? Wouldn't that unit be more valuable with all of that? If they start over, maybe they'd follow a very different path and become a villain instead. What in-story reason could there be to wipe their memories?The idea of avoiding this alleged "cheapening" is an outside-the-story thing, an artificial rule imposed on the story rather than something that stays true to how things would logically be within the fictional world. Also, it really doesn't make sense anyways -- except that it can take away finality (which is probably being way overrated anyways :P). They still sacrificed their life, not knowing it wouldn't be final, and the idea that it cheapens the death ignores the wonderful positive side of a revival. A strong case can be made, and probably should be, that it actually deepens and brings more value to the death. Can lose one value and gain a far more powerful one, yanno?Bringing such a character back (with memories) means that they are able to continue, with the life experiences that led them up to make those choices, to fight for what's right. If they just stay dead, then that one sacrifice can only have the value it had. But now, it can have continuing value because they have come back to continue to help. :)So like any choice in fiction there's pros and cons -- and it really is a mistake IMO to try to make it about 'cheapening.'If we applied that thinking consistently you'd have to try to apply dollars and cents type values to everything in stories, rather than being able to engage with the characters as real people with deep emotions and desires, tough choices, etc. Everything would just become a more highly or more lowly priced plot device and turn plot into a game of always avoiding "cheap" (yet realistic and meaningful) little things (or even big things) and only doing the "expensive" plot devices. Ugh. :PI say rather that real, deep, raw, meaningful emotions in a fictional character can and should be explored in anything possible for a fictional world, valuing both what some may say are little moments and big moments, and possibilities that don't exist in the real world. :)And let's keep in mind that we shouldn't be acting like character deaths are universally embraced as having deep resonate value anyways. Too often people also disengage when those happen and just call it authorial "killing off". So this idea that deaths are in themselves inherently "not cheap" is not to be blindly assumed either. There's more to that too. The truth is that with both death and revival, there are both style of presentation and choice of attitude to the plot element by the reader at play.Obviously the argument can be strongly made that style of presentation of deaths and revivals both may be lacking (though taste plays a role). Botar's death for example, was kinda just "he died, bam, moving on" -- which is not an issue in this case because we do not have the style of presentation. But my point is, choice of attitude the reader brings to it is also key in both kinds of events. (Including in real-world type revivals like the old hospital "CLEAR!"-zap thing.)In other words, many readers unfortunately will stay engaged with anything a story does, until a character dies. Then, regardless of presentation or with a strong bias against it, they will themselves step out of suspension of disbelief and insist on judging it only as a plot device, as if death was not realistic in that world. I think that's a bad approach. Likewise, some of you are making the same basic mistake here. You are staying engaged until there's a revival, and then, regardless of presentation (especially considering we don't have it), yall are insisting on not suspending your disbelief as you normally would, merely because it is revival and thus "cheapens", etc. etc. Both are the same mistake.You could make an in-story argument for villains losing their memories, though. :P

In reply to your reply about my memory speculation/theory.

The GBs, last I checked, never designed the inhabitants of the MU with true sentience and/or sapience to begin with. So in this sense, the only real "greater good" that the custodians of the RS would probably think about is the preservation of the MU. Other then that I am not sure how they would rate or care about such a thing (rating their light/shadow levels does not work because those have no moral affiliations, at least not until the Makuta pulled the opening phases of their famous coup, and I am sure that the RS revival system is far older then that, if it would have even cared). So to answer your question of what an in story reason would be is that they are not intentionally wiped, but not restored because the system/people in charge of this process probably don't think of them as necessary, considering what the inhabitants of the MUs intended purpose was. It is also important to note that I am not against them keeping their memories.When I made that post, all I did was inquire about whether or not they have memories. However the next sentence about them being amnesiacs was just speculation, I was not in anyway saying that I demand it to be true or whatever. I also wrote it down because I think that it is a cool idea and it also happens it can be used to show that such a thing can be implemented without inheritly making the story "cheap" in the eyes of someone who thinks it does, possibly.

This is a reply to what you said about fiction in general. Disclaimer: The reply below makes the assumption that all you said in the spoiler box containing my post was directed at me in some way, if it was not then disregard the part that mentions that. Thank you.

Revival is fine, so long it is portrayed right, and I really did not have an issue with the way Greg did it, we also have yet to see him put it in words. But at the moment I don't find anything wrong with it's current status either. Again, that sort of thing will have to wait until we see how he presents it.On the subject of finality and revival, putting that I think execution matters the most aside, usually doesn't sit well with me. The reason is that when a hero sacrifices himself for the greater good, then it isn't a sacrifice if they are brought back just as they are no strings attached, since a sacrifice implies that it cost them something and in this case they didn't really lose anything. Also if your hero can always be brought back then no one ever has to worry about the hero and that is a problem is your are trying to be serious or dramatic, it can fall flat. As for a revival bring "value" to the death, it doesn't, death is pretty much finality in practice, removing that removes it's "value". It can deepen the actions of the hero who does not know about anything after death and does it anyway, but that only shows that the hero is heroic, but technically that would only work until his first death at most. I also do not feel I have to explain that death itself is not inherently emotional, it all depends on how it is handled (though you did touch on this at the end). All in all, do not get me wrong, the Eternal Hero can be good if done right like the protagonist in Bungie's Marathon games, but explaining this particular instance is successful would take a lot of explaining that is not relevant to bionicle, and long to begin with.As for placing value on plot devices, I believe that your argument for that is dumbfounded. Now I am a troper on TV Tropes which goes into all the plot elements and such, and even doing that I am still able to engage with characters and their emotions, etc. with no problems at all, especially none that you mentioned even though I do like some more then others (at least in terms of the idea of the trope). As for valuing moments or possibilities in fiction that don't exist, this is not something I am in anyway opposed to, in fact I actually endorse that. As you also probably gathered by now, I do not view the death or revival of characters to be something that breaks willing suspension of disbelief here because to me that is not out of reach, not in this case anyway.Anyway, assuming this was all directed at me, then a lot of what you wrote towards "me" isn't anything I actually believe, agree with, or endorse.

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Uh... guys... might want to look at this...

After his death, he was transported to the Red Star and given a new body, but is unable to escape due to malfunctions in the star.
...Apparently it can pull dead beings from SM.

Edited by bonesiii
That's still a spoiler so moving it into the tags. -bones

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Uh... guys... might want to look at this...
After his death, he was transported to the Red Star and given a new body, but is unable to escape due to malfunctions in the star.
...Apparently it can pull dead beings from SM.

Even though his BS01 page does say that, I really hope that it is wrong and Teridax isn't in the Red Star. Unless it is fact that all MU residents, either in the MU or on Spherus Magna, go to the RS if they die, I just don't see it happening. And besides, Greg did say that Teridax is dead, correct? That could mean that he isn't in the RS but is truly dead.

Edited by bonesiii
Spoiler inside quote but outside spoiler tag moved in. -bones

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Uh... guys... might want to look at this...
After his death, he was transported to the Red Star and given a new body, but is unable to escape due to malfunctions in the star.
...Apparently it can pull dead beings from SM.

I don't recall that being confirmed. Seems more to me like someone jumped the gun and tried to pass off a false assumption as fact.Teridax is DEAD. D-E-A-D, people.Anyway, as far as the spoilers go:I can't say I'm too surprised when it comes to the purpose of the Red Star. It wasn't that hard to figure out, really. But I like it. I'm assuming that, like the folks in the Podcast said, only beings that die without completing their destinies are sent to the Red Star (which would obviously exclude Matoro, Lhikan, Teridax, etc.). That's what makes the most sense to me, anyway. After all, the destinies were largely determined by Mata Nui himself, so it makes sense that he wouldn't need to "recycle" beings that had already served their purpose to him.I'm a little disappointed, though, in regards to the revelation of Velika's motive. It just seems...underwhelming. In fact, I could swear that it was already stated in some capacity that that is what he was doing. Not to seem unappreciative or anything; I just expected something more "unique."

Edited by bonesiii
Some spoilers that were outside the tags moved in. -bones
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Even though his BS01 page does say that, I really hope that it is wrong and Teridax isn't in the Red Star. Unless it is fact that all MU residents, either in the MU or on Spherus Magna, go to the RS if they die, I just don't see it happening. And besides, Greg did say that Teridax is dead, correct? That could mean that he isn't in the RS but is truly dead.

I'm personally hoping it was just someone jumping the metaphorical gun, but the fact that it ended up on the wiki in the first place...

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Huh. According to BS01, Gaardus was altered 'over 80,000 years ago'. The Kestora blame him for the Red Star's failure. So...

I wonder if this reincarnation worked as planned early in the history of the MU, before Gaardus traveled there. I doubt it, because then its function probably wouldn't be a secret (unless there was memory loss involved). But before I reread TPTB, I assumed that it had failed to work from the start.

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Who's going around editing the wiki to change the status of deceased characters? Everyone's dead until further notice.

Yeah, it really needs to stop. We don't have any proof whether those characters are actually alive or not, nor do we really have any idea what the circumstances surrounding the Red Star's functionality are. All we know is that some beings go there when they die.

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As for the Teridax thing, check the page history. Who added it? If it was a staff member, it's almost certainly legit. But I'd want to hear it from Erebus before I believe it. :P[Edit: It's a FROGGER0. Not staff, and the pages aren't approved by staff. It does not appear to be legit.]

@bonesii, that's a good observation about Velika framing Lesovikk. However, it doesn't explain how Velika gained access to Lesovikk's sword, or why Lesovikk was seen continuing his quest by Gali without his sword; how did Lesovikk not notice he lost his sword, and if he did, why did he just continue?
Well, I'm presuming mainly that he did not encounter Karzahni and does not know he's dead.Then, any number of simple explanations could work. Perhaps he made camp for a short time, and Velika snuck up and stole it. Lesovikk is confused, frustrated, angry, but sees no sign of it when he needs it. Determined not to give up, he continues on without it, perhaps hoping to find another Toa Tool later, or perhaps (since he's been a Toa for so long) he is confident enough in using his element without it.Or a fight with some other enemy could have been set up to get him to lose the Tool, and then that enemy may have been less guarded about it, and add the same strategy by Velika as above around that.
Assuming that beings outside the MU do not get revived, then Tren Krom had no reason to send an image of the Red Star to anyone in the vicinity; it wouldn't have helped him either way.
Actually, that's not necessarily true, due to simple psychology. The Kromster had a ton of knowledge about how the giant robot worked and that may have included the Red Star, so all this time he may have gotten used to thinking it would be insurance for him. When the giant robot became uninhabitable, he was forced to flee. And then, he finds himself facing his death -- outside the theorized zone of insurance. Wouldn't you, if you were in his gelatin...ous.. shoes... think of the Red Star too, then?Kinda like if you have a powerful suit of armor to save your life, but then one day you decide to go around without it, and happen to be murdered on that day -- you would naturally think of it.
I'm curious, though; wouldn't Velika have gotten the telepathic message?
Well, probably, but a lot depends on the method of arrival, killing, and departure.Suppose for a moment the much earlier theory that he stole the main component of the Spirit Wish gate to teleport is true, plus he (being both the inventor Matoran Velika and the GB) somehow made or found or retrieved a gel-blaster weapon. If he just teleported to TK, pulled the trigger, and teleported away immediately before TK could even react, then probably didn't get the full message.Otherwise yes... unless of course he can shield his mind, as might be necessary, even from TK.
I wonder if this is meant to hint that Velika is insane? Could be.
I think he's just alluding to the Toa Code; only an insane Toa would break it, in other words (in his mind). Perhaps in hearing the Turaga's tales that is the explanation he thought of for himself for Nidhiki's betrayal, and he's recalling it now.Velika not being a Toa could mean something else entirely (the Order would kill sometimes for example if necessary).
It seems to imply that Velika either has some personal grudge against him, or he's just insane and wants to have fun as he kills. The latter's pretty disturbing.
Makes sense that he would since Karzo poorly rebuilt him, as others have theorized before. Anyways, we're getting a bit off into Velikaville here without reference to the Red Star, so maybe it'd be best to continue this in the other topic. :P
Velika knew that Gaardus was at the scene, and yet he did not bother killing him. This does show that Velika is only going after specified targets. However, this brings us back to my earlier question, if Velika heard TK's telepathic scream, what did he do about it and why doesn't he seem worried that others heard it? Velika knew Gaardus was there, and he must've known that Gaardus got the scream with the red star, and yet he didn't worry at all about either. This proves to me that the Red Star doesn't interest Velika or reveal his plans; this is something TK wanted others to interpret and act upon, but velika didn't see it as a threat to his plans.
Well, these are good points, but then, come to think of it, the fact that Velika knew Gaardus was there may explain the apparent coincidence in a way I didn't think of earlier; as confirming that Velika's plans do involve the Red Star in some way. That he would do something to lure Gaardus near Tren Krom, and wait until the two were near to kill TK. Whether the Toa had to be near for that plan is another question too.Given that Gaardus has a habit of not offering information, some motive that could have been used to lure him there is quite possible.
So TK teleported to the forest. The fact that he was confused seems to show that Tren Krom had not meant to appear there.
I completely missed that, lol. You're right...Well, run with the "RS only collects spirits from in the giant robot" theory.Maybe TK had been in the MU, then was teleported (again, by the Spirit's Wish gate or sommat). Hm... *wikis*BS01 just says:
Tren Krom tried to persuade Artakha to let him keep it, but Artakha told him to have faith in Mata Nui, and restored Tren Krom and Lewa to their original bodies. Spherus MagnaAfter Teridax was killed and the Matoran Universe heavily damaged, Tren Krom was released from his island.Tren Krom was later murdered
Where exactly he went on his own after being released from the island I don't know. But if we go with the robot-only and relying-on-insurance theories, he may have meant to stay inside. And Velika could have used the Wish teleporter to force him out, so that the RS insurance wouldn't work.Also, if he teleported TK, then he needn't lure Gaardus anywhere but merely send TK to where Gaardus was (if G being there wasn't mere coincidence.)
Contrary to this, though, is that it took Kopaka and Pohatu several days to get where Velika got. If Velika could get around instantly, why wait?
It may have taken him that long to gain the ability. Or he may have wanted K&amp;P plus Gaardus all to be in range for the message.
The GBs, last I checked, never designed the inhabitants of the MU with true sentience and/or sapience to begin with.
A recent topic provided a Greg quote that confirms that they knew they were sapient, so it's a misconception that sapience is what was unexpected. But they did not expect them to go beyond the bounds of the programming, developing culture and the like. We're not really sure what label belongs with the "it" that did unexpectedly happen -- full sapience? Freewill? Merely culture? But they were at least partially sapient.
So to answer your question of what an in story reason would be is that they are not intentionally wiped
Well, that's certainly plausible. But it's reasonable to presume they were not supposed to have their memories wiped. Could be by accident, though, esp. given the whole jury-rigged, deteriorating idea of the RS.FTR, no I wasn't just talking to you about the 'cheapen' thing. :) Since you were replying to others who had brought it up I was mainly commenting towards them about it. Sorry for the confusion though.
The reason is that when a hero sacrifices himself for the greater good, then it isn't a sacrifice if they are brought back just as they are no strings attached, since a sacrifice implies that it cost them something and in this case they didn't really lose anything.
Generally speaking, I agree with that. If only by general principle that everything has a cost; action-reaction, Newton and all that. :)
As for a revival bring "value" to the death, it doesn't, death is pretty much finality in practice, removing that removes it's "value".
See, I think this perspective of death in fiction is too superficial. I think there is much more that death can be about than merely finality, and IMO finality should never be assumed unless we're in a real-world-type genre like CSI -- and even then, if the hospital monitor is flatlining, it's wise to be prepared for after the break (or season break lol) they do the CLEAR! thing successfully. :)This is part of why it's so hard to do death right in stories, because some readers have such a strong drive, for whatever reason, to take it off into something else other than what the author intended and maybe miss the point. This goes both ways -- both in not accepting the death and accepting it, as I've pointed out often on BZP when people go crazy because their favorite character has died lol.I just wish people wouldn't get that kind of "tug-of-war" attitude about deaths in stories, and would treat them -- including the possibility of revival -- the way it's meant to be treated within the story just like everything else in stories. :) Methinks we'd all be better off doing that.But yes, presentation is very important.In other words, what you said here comes across as saying the only value death in fiction has is finality! Do you seriously believe that? I think it has so, so, so much more value than just that. That seems way oversimplistic to me. (And usually it's not ever really final in terms of story time; flashbacks for example. I've often pointed out that Lhikan has arguably gotten more story time since his death than previous, lol.)For one thing, there's the pain of it. And of course the elements of sacrifice. The pain of loss -- a value that is definately not lost upon refinding but makes the refinding all the sweeter, in any other context (why not this?).I could go on but I don't wanna beat a dead horse too much. :P
As for placing value on plot devices, I believe that your argument for that is dumbfounded. Now I am a troper on TV Tropes which goes into all the plot elements and such, and even doing that I am still able to engage with characters and their emotions, etc.
That's fine; like I said, all that stuff is fun. But we can ruin the fun if we take it too seriously -- just to be clear, this is where my reply was springboarding off of your post to try to better phrase what I was saying earlier to Kahi and a few others, not just you, though. :)Basically, keep fun things fun, and don't use them to rob ourselves of fun in another category. Don't take the trope so seriously it disengages you from the characters. For you, not a problem, so we're good. :) It seemed some others were making that mistake, however.Also, is dumbfounded what you meant to say? Unfounded? Dumbfounded means to be at a loss for words in surprise or the like. Presuming that was a typo. :)
But I like it. I'm assuming that, like the folks in the Podcast said, only beings that die without completing their destinies are sent to the Red Star (which would obviously exclude Matoro, Lhikan, Teridax, etc.). That's what makes the most sense to me, anyway. After all, the destinies were largely determined by Mata Nui himself, so it makes sense that he wouldn't need to "recycle" beings that had already served their purpose to him.
I'm curious why so many people seem to like this theory. It doesn't to me seem at all supported since the whole reason Greg said this is done is that there are limited resources to make new beings. It may be sometimes true and sometimes not, though. My example of a Toa of Iron having continuous value for the maintenance job might not apply to every other type of character. :shrugs:But often characters who do complete their destinies are still extremely valuable to the MU just based on personality. Take Lhikan for example. He achieved his destiny to make the Toa Metru. But as a Turaga, he saved the life of someone whose destiny was not complete, sacrificially. So he has one of those extremely valuable mindsets based on his life experiences that I was talking about earlier that I'd think the GBs would want to keep around, given that they have the option to. Because if they ever needed someone who was willing to do whatever was necessary again, he's up for the gig.
I'm a little disappointed, though, in regards to the revelation of Velika's motive. It just seems...underwhelming. In fact, I could swear that it was already stated in some capacity that that is what he was doing. Not to seem unappreciative or anything; I just expected something more "unique."
This is kinda the wrong topic for this ( :P) but I think it's very clear it's just a clarification of the original clue you reference. Notice it doesn't say what the plans are that he's cleaning house for in order to preserve things. Also, it does give us some tidbits of important clarification over merely "cleaning house", which could have implied killing villains, or killing powerful people. But now we know it's neither per se, but rather killing those who will not help / will hinder his deeper goal.So cleaning house itself is NOT his goal; it's something else we don't know yet, apparently.
I wonder if this reincarnation worked as planned early in the history of the MU, before Gaardus traveled there. I doubt it, because then its function probably wouldn't be a secret (unless there was memory loss involved). But before I reread TPTB, I assumed that it had failed to work from the start.
I'm presuming it worked for a while. I guess they would have a sort of "we revived you, so you owe us, and the price we ask is secrecy" talk with everybody before they sent them back.The lines from the Kestora and Gaardus seem to clearly confirm it used to work.

Edited by bonesiii

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I'm curious why so many people seem to like this theory. It doesn't to me seem at all supported since the whole reason Greg said this is done is that there are limited resources to make new beings. It may be sometimes true and sometimes not, though. My example of a Toa of Iron having continuous value for the maintenance job might not apply to every other type of character. :shrugs:But often characters who do complete their destinies are still extremely valuable to the MU just based on personality. Take Lhikan for example. He achieved his destiny to make the Toa Metru. But as a Turaga, he saved the life of someone whose destiny was not complete, sacrificially. So he has one of those extremely valuable mindsets based on his life experiences that I was talking about earlier that I'd think the GBs would want to keep around, given that they have the option to. Because if they ever needed someone who was willing to do whatever was necessary again, he's up for the gig.

I guess I just prefer the seeming "finality" of those characters' deaths. I mean, if they were confirmed to still be alive, then I wouldn't have much of a problem with it; I simply prefer the "destined deaths are final" approach. Now, that's not to say that you don't make a good point in suggesting that people with a heroic and self-sacrificial mindset might warrant recycling, it just makes more sense to me to say that once they've completed their mission for Mata Nui then they wouldn't need to be recycled.Though I suppose that even with my stance on the matter, one could argue that "backing them up," at least, would be a smart move. Maybe they wouldn't get resurrected right away, but should the Matoran Universe need a righteous hero like that again, then Kestora would have their spirits "on file" just in case.

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FROGGER0 is also marking all the edits with an m for minor, which those edits certainly don't qualify as, possibly to avoid notice by staff. If any BS01 staff members are reading, check 'em out. Under Recent Changes, "(Main)" namespace almost all the edits are by him in the past two days, all marked with m.

I guess I just prefer the seeming "finality" of those characters' deaths. I mean, if they were confirmed to still be alive, then I wouldn't have much of a problem with it; I simply prefer the "destined deaths are final" approach. Now, that's not to say that you don't make a good point in suggesting that people with a heroic and self-sacrificial mindset might warrant recycling, it just makes more sense to me to say that once they've completed their mission for Mata Nui then they wouldn't need to be recycled.Though I suppose that even with my stance on the matter, one could argue that "backing them up," at least, would be a smart move. Maybe they wouldn't get resurrected right away, but should the Matoran Universe need a righteous hero like that again, then Kestora would have their spirits "on file" just in case.
That makes sense. That would fit with the theory that the 777 stairs device was put there partly to back up (up to that point) the Toa who volunteered to give their life (which was Matoro). Presumably he would have to be stored at least for a while anyways while the current him is still alive, since the Kestora seemed to say that the way it was supposed to work is as soon as you're revived you go back. Others could just be backed up after dying and stored in the same system, if their destinies are achieved.

Edited by bonesiii

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That makes sense. That would fit with the theory that the 777 stairs device was put there partly to back up (up to that point) the Toa who volunteered to give their life (which was Matoro). Presumably he would have to be stored at least for a while anyways while the current him is still alive, since the Kestora seemed to say that the way it was supposed to work is as soon as you're revived you go back. Others could just be backed up after dying and stored in the same system, if their destinies are achieved.

I never knew the 777 Stairs even had such a function. :P

Edited by XyzTheDay!
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BTW, by the two-day-roundupto-midnight rule, since this spoiler was reported to the news, spoiler tags are no longer needed (for the Red Star spoiler specifically) from this point on. :)They are still needed for the Velika motive spoiler from the other topic, however.

I never knew the 777 Stairs even had such a function. :P
This post made me want to review what it was called and stuff, so I looked it up. It's the Chamber of Death. And lookie what BS01 says about it:
The chamber is one of the many obstacles located on the way down to the Chamber of Life, and was created by the Great Beings. The chamber requires any travelers to sacrifice one of its members in order to test their courage, although the victim is resurrected shortly afterwards.During their quest for the Kanohi Ignika, the Toa Inika passed through this room during their journey to the Chamber, and were ordered to make a sacrifice. After some moments of hesitation, Matoro volunteered, and was consequently disintegrated. However, he was then reformed, and the Toa were allowed to proceed on their quest.The room is described to have Lightstones in it, which give off a red glow.
[bold and red emphasis mine]Whoa. Red Star, red...This would seem to give extremely strong evidence that this revelation was planned since then. Of course, if the sendback wasn't working by then we run into problems here. :shrugs: But maybe this device was a secondary system that mimicked it, just for the Stairs' purpose. Anywho... interesting apparent clue. Edited by bonesiii

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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I dunno, I still kinda figure the red lightstones were just to give the place an air of ominousness. And by the description, it seemed that the dead person's essence is transferred into another body (whether this new body is identical to the original, I can't say) before getting sent back. I got the impression that it was Matoro retained his same body, and didn't completely experience death fully, since his actual death at the end of 2007 seemed kinda foreign to him in his last moments.

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I dunno, I still kinda figure the red lightstones were just to give the place an air of ominousness. And by the description, it seemed that the dead person's essence is transferred into another body (whether this new body is identical to the original, I can't say) before getting sent back. I got the impression that it was Matoro retained his same body, and didn't completely experience death fully, since his actual death at the end of 2007 seemed kinda foreign to him in his last moments.
All of that can be true at the same time as that theory. But anyways, I'm just reacting in surprise mostly that there is such a well-fitting clue I forgot. :PLet's also recall, though, that this was the year Greg brought the Red Star to the main storyline (from just MNOG previously and maybe vague references), and set up a mystery about the red lightning. The next year, the mystery of the beings living in it was introduced. My point being, these evidences strongly support the theory that he planned this reveal at least by 2006. :) Edited by bonesiii

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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The chamber is one of the many obstacles located on the way down to the Chamber of Life, and was created by the Great Beings. The chamber requires any travelers to sacrifice one of its members in order to test their courage, although the victim is resurrected shortly afterwards.During their quest for the Kanohi Ignika, the Toa Inika passed through this room during their journey to the Chamber, and were ordered to make a sacrifice. After some moments of hesitation, Matoro volunteered, and was consequently disintegrated. However, he was then reformed, and the Toa were allowed to proceed on their quest.The room is described to have Lightstones in it, which give off a red glow.
[bold and red emphasis mine]Whoa. Red Star, red...This would seem to give extremely strong evidence that this revelation was planned since then. Of course, if the sendback wasn't working by then we run into problems here. :shrugs: But maybe this device was a secondary system that mimicked it, just for the Stairs' purpose. Anywho... interesting apparent clue.
Ahhhh. Alright, I can see where you're going with that. But while I like the idea, I was under the impression that the plots of the post-cancellation serials were only planned out once the main storyline ended, like a Post-Script Season. I may be wrong, but that's what I don't get about everyone saying that the Red Star being a recycle bin and Velika being a GB could have been planned from 2006+; it doesn't seem like those were even in the realm of possibility at the time. I mean, wasn't there a completely different plot lined up in case the sets hadn't been cancelled? Something involving Bota Magna and the Element Lords? It just seems to me like all this new information only became a possibility due to the spontaneity of the post-cancellation serials. If my notion is wrong, then please, correct me. I am truly confused. Edited by XyzTheDay!
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But while I like the idea, I was under the impression that the plots of the post-cancellation serials were only planned out once the main storyline ended, like a Post-Script Season. I may be wrong, but that's what I don't get about everyone saying that the Red Star being a recycle bin and Velika being a GB could have been planned from 2006+
Two things.First, I'm not talking about plot, but a secret about the world -- the Red Star as just revealed, specifically. That's all these clues likely mean.Second, we're pretty sure Greg came up with the Velika GB thing only at the end, although we don't necessarily know for sure.
it doesn't seem like those were even in the realm of possibility at the time.
Sure they were. Revival was established in 2003, and Great Beings (being totally mysterious to us, but with some 2006 hints showing them to be quite powerful in some ways) were around since 2001. Why would any of this not be possible with the world as established back then? I'm not saying all of it was planned, though. (And again, there's nothing wrong with new imagination late in the game, obviously.)And yes, there was undoubtedly a plot lined up to involve sets. Of course, who knows whether what we've got going on wasn't planned to be part of that plot in a different way?

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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I dunno, I still kinda figure the red lightstones were just to give the place an air of ominousness. And by the description, it seemed that the dead person's essence is transferred into another body (whether this new body is identical to the original, I can't say) before getting sent back. I got the impression that it was Matoro retained his same body, and didn't completely experience death fully, since his actual death at the end of 2007 seemed kinda foreign to him in his last moments.
All of that can be true at the same time as that theory. But anyways, I'm just reacting in surprise mostly that there is such a well-fitting clue I forgot. :PLet's also recall, though, that this was the year Greg brought the Red Star to the main storyline (from just MNOG previously and maybe vague references), and set up a mystery about the red lightning. The next year, the mystery of the beings living in it was introduced. My point being, these evidences strongly support the theory that he planned this reveal at least by 2006. :)
Oh no doubt, something about all this tells me that it's been planned for a while, not a recent decision like Velika being the Great Being. I don't know if it's been from the beginning, but I do get the distinct feeling that it's something the whole story team figured out, not just Greg, quite a while back. Definitely at least 2006, since that was the first time since MNOG the Red Star actually did something. I just don't get the vibe that the Death Chamber beneath Voya Nui is really related, is all.
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It could easily have been planned as merely a clue in the sense of associating the color red with death and revival. Without actually being tapped into it at all.So the whole backup theory need not be true for that to have been an intentional clue towards this reveal. :) However, the reason I theorize that is that it makes so much sense for the GBs to backup such a valuable 'unit' as Matoro (or whoever would sacrifice themselves to save Mata Nui). I do think it would have to be a sub-system with its own Reviver that doesn't really teleport him up there, though. Much as I think Jaller's revival has to have been like a subsystem done by Takutanuva, not teleporting up. Since it seems clear the RS's sendback teleporter has been broken long before these events.And admittedly, the existence of a Reviver on Voya Nui that has apparently not been being used, even though Mata Nui would presumably know the RS isn't working, seems contradictory. Except of course we know Mata Nui's character flaw of not caring enough about what goes on inside him (and now probably inside the RS) -- otherwise regardless of a secondary reviver or not you'd think he would realize the resources problems and have somebody go to the RS to help the Kestora fix it. So yeah, the theory that there is a backup system for the sacrificee seems highly likely to me, though it may not have been the original intent of that scene.

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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Two things.First, I'm not talking about plot, but a secret about the world -- the Red Star as just revealed, specifically. That's all these clues likely mean.Second, we're pretty sure Greg came up with the Velika GB thing only at the end, although we don't necessarily know for sure.
1) Oh, okay. Sorry. I misunderstood.2) On that one I had just seen several people say stuff like "Velika always spoke in riddles and he built the multi-shot Zamor Launchers so maybe his true nature was planned all along" which didn't make sense to me. I viewed it as more of a retroactive thing, which I'm sure that it is.
Sure they were. Revival was established in 2003, and Great Beings (being totally mysterious to us, but with some 2006 hints showing them to be quite powerful in some ways) were around since 2001. Why would any of this not be possible with the world as established back then? I'm not saying all of it was planned, though. (And again, there's nothing wrong with new imagination late in the game, obviously.)And yes, there was undoubtedly a plot lined up to involve sets. Of course, who knows whether what we've got going on wasn't planned to be part of that plot in a different way?
Okay, maybe "within the realm of possibility" was a bad choice of words. I meant to say something like, "how could these things have been planned ahead of time if the circumstances (i.e. the idea of having a renegade GB hiding out in the Matoran Universe, which from what I understand was only conceived as a plot point in 2011) surrounding these revelations only came into existence recently?" Of course, I agree that new information is still good at this point, I just don't get why so many people are assuming that this new information has really been a secret, planned fact for a long time and is only now coming out.Although I somehow managed to forget that the idea of "beings living in the Red Star" has been around since well before 2011, so I guess that's a moot point on my end.
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On that one I had just seen several people say stuff like "Velika always spoke in riddles and he built the multi-shot Zamor Launchers so maybe his true nature was planned all along" which didn't make sense to me. I viewed it as more of a retroactive thing, which I'm sure that it is.
I would say I bet Greg's subconscious planned it all along. I know mine pulls tricks like that on me all the time with my mysteries. Often as the writer of my fanfics I discover the secret as I write much as the reader would as they read. :P (Though obviously not on the big planned things.) Velika fits so very well. But consciously Greg definitely made it sound like he hadn't thought of it until recently, yeah.My guess is that the original story Bible had many big secrets, including about Great Beings, and maybe the booster rocket thing (since the Great Spirit thing was planned), and the year arcs with sets were based on coming up with villains year by year, but always to slowly reveal some of the originals.With the Red Star, I bet it was only ever supposed to be a booster rocket originally, but when MNOG featured it so beautifully the fans really fell in love with it as a huge mystery and they realized just that wouldn't do, and came up with this around 2005-2006, then planted clues for it from then on just as they have planted clues since the start for other mysteries. Of course we should keep in mind that for a mystery story like this, it certainly makes sense to, as a matter of course, usually wait a while to reveal new mysteries you came up with so you have some time to clue-drop.With the post-giant-robot-battle time I presume the year-by-year stuff had to be dropped since it would have involved new sets, and Greg needed a villain to replace them and came up with the GB thing then. :)That's my theroy.
I meant to say something like, "how could these things have been planned ahead of time if the circumstances (i.e. the idea of having a renegade GB hiding out in the Matoran Universe, which from what I understand was only conceived as a plot point in 2011) surrounding these revelations only came into existence recently?"
See above. Essentially, that's exactly what we should expect for a mystery story. When I form my mystery fanfics I usually have an array of secrets I planned from the start, but I "let the story write itself" in terms of when and how the secrets come out. Several times my stories have surprised me on when the secrets come out (I call this the Arena Method; avoiding authorial guiding like the plague, and instead focusing mostly on building the world first and then letting the characters struggle through it however they realistically would; see "Best Of" link in sig for link to my old blog entry on it).Some new secrets occur to me as I write, or as I continue to plan later stories before I write those and after I've written previous ones. Without necessarily knowing when I come up with them how I plan to reveal them.Writing a mystery story is usually not an all-invented-along-the-way-together process. It varies. Edited by bonesiii

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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Could just be confusion, yeah, with the Kestora. But there -is- evidence of memory loss. The second one said:
"No," said another. "Don't you remember what happened the last time? They wouldn't go back and we had to --"
Which later was defined, apparently, as:
"But if it doesn't work, do we need to end them like the other ones?"
Don't you think it's a bit odd that the first one forgets that they can't go back to begin with, plus even forgets that they murdered people because of that in the past?
Not at all. We humans do this all the time."Don't put the wireless mic next to the speaker!""Why no--BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP--oh, right!"Just today I told my co-student this about 5 times, and after a short time he would have forgotten it again. Since day 1 we've had trouble with People are capable of momentarily forgetting things in the middle of excitement, and as such I don't see it as odd that one Kestora would have to remind another that no, they can't just beam the trio back, because that's exactly what we've been having problems with a cable that I've been trying to fix, and yet I can still find myself holding that very cable and fail to recognize the problem because it slipped my mind again.
Later, the same sort of thing happens again, when they've had plenty of time to get over their initial shock:
"Mata Nui is so much junk in the Bara Magna desert by now," said Pohatu. "You guys must not get out much.""If that's true, then we can't send them back," said the first Kestora. "There is nowhere to send them back to.""Well, they can't stay here," said the second firmly. "We have too many as it is.""We could keep them," suggested the third. "Maybe a dissection would tell us why they can't go back. Of course, we tried that before, and all we wound up with was a mess - a lot of messes, actually - but maybe this time --"
The first one is back to forgetting they couldn't send anyone back anyways. And the third suggests dissection as if it's a new idea, then reminds himself they've tried it before to no avail.The confusion interpretation is certainly possible, and I think there would have to be some of it, but surely this is at least evidence for a theory that they have a forgetfulness tendency.
They sound like typical movie scientists that discuss problems over and over in order to explain things to the audience, but not really absent-minded or disoriented as I'd expect of full-on memory loss.
His revival just a short time later felt forced, because even though it was touching to see Takua/Takanuva care to do that with his final strength, it was not something I'd have expected anyone in BIONICLE to be able to do at all.
Well since when was it good for stories only to do what we expect? I didn't see it coming either and that's why it was so awesome. :)
I wouldn't call it awesome, but it's nice. I just wish the whole revival thing would have been foreshadowed a bit more, or at least not been done twice in a row.
Where the power came from wasn't explained well enough, I felt, since Vakama then proceeded to fix Takanuva with seemingly no trouble at all.
Well, there's a whole 'nother subject there about when something should be explained. I thought it was pretty obvious that the fusion of light and shadow in one being was having a much more powerful effect than we realized was possible. Seemed poetically fitting too, since Jaller was being brought back from the shadow of death to the light of life. And we'd already had sub-powers in the elemental masks for those two, to establish the principle.
The fusion power was OK, since yes, Takutanuva was immensely powerful and collapsed soon after reviving Jaller, indicating that the life energy came from the fusion itself. The Takanuva revival is what I really dislike.
Basically, why must everything always be explained right away? We didn't get the explanations for most things in the story like elemental powers, mask powers, Makuta's 'nothing' statement, etc. until later either. In fact some people chafed against getting them, lol.
It doesn't have to, it just doesn't have to feel bad when it's left unexplained. When Jaller is revived by a powerful being sacrificing energy, then Takanuva sort of breaks the rule that was just established when he's revived from a simple floor symbol and Vakama doesn't seem to act like it's a big deal.
However, having his gun suddenly run out when it hadn't before (or making an enemy shoot people dead in a sequel cutscene with a "bottomless" pistol magazine), that would break Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
Again, that's in-story. In-story here, it makes perfect sense that attached spirits, AI, whatever could by various means be revived, esp. since it's happened and been explained before with Jaller. So there's no in-story contradiction. That wasn't Kahi's argument, but rather that he doesn't want the finality of death to be removed by revival, based on his tastes.
Marvel, DC Comics, Dragonball and many other forms of superhero stories have often been critizied for making death almost pointless as a plot device because it's known that any character can be brought back for any reason that a writer feels like adding. Keeping it unexplained is then better, almost; and having a series where death is final makes everything more dramatic. It's just a way of fiction. Unless revival is an established plot point (like BIONICLE seems to be moving towards) and that it's adequately written, revival becomes cheap and boring and bad. That's what Kahi is seemingly afraid of, and I don't want that to happen either.

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@ Bonesiii, regarding "finality and value of death".This is admittedly where I should have been more clear, the particular sort of death I was thinking about was a well executed, sort of epic or romantic sort of death (romantic in this case referring to Romanticism, not necessarily love), as well as a particular kind of symbolism (death is final symbolism, rather then reincarnation symbolism) with it in some cases (Matoro's Heroic Sacrifice could be an example of this, more or less). Though admittedly I do not think finality is the only thing that could bring "value" to it, for example I can see it being used for sake of redemption, as it commonly is, rather then finality as one particular example. I also like the idea of symbolic survival of a dead character as well as afterlife, and ghost visits (such as what they did with Bobby in Supernatural), or situations where the death of a character is questionable. Anyway I just wanted to elaborate more on this subject.

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So if the re-teleporter is broken, how come they didn't put everyone back during booster-rocket mode? Also, (I don't know if anyone ever brought this up) but are all those Toa Mangai that good ol' Terry sent to their deaths to get them out of Metru Nui are alive? Just speculation.EDIT: I checked BS01 and Teridax's page has been fixed. No need to worry, everyone!

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@ the Red Star thing being planned, I do think it's likely that the Red Star's purpose has been known by the story team since BIONICLE's midpoint (2005-2007) at least. The Red Star's sudden reappearance in the story in 2006 seems to support this, and the revelation that there were beings inside it came the following year. I think this is very significant, because if Greg was killing characters with this knowledge in recent years, and going with the idea that disintegrated beings can't be revived, then Greg may have consciously had characters like Teridax killed in a certain way to ensure their permanent death. A lot of characters have died by disintegration in recent years. Is that a coincidence.I do think the chances of Matoro returning are close to zero, though. In that old Planned vs. Not Planned topic years ago Greg mentioned that the story team always knew that one of the Toa Inika would die to save Mata Nui. When it was decided that it would be Matoro, we the fans could tell he gained prominence in the story in 2007 and 2007. I could tell Greg put a lot into making his death emotional and spent several pages of Downfall on it. If the Red Star's true purpose was also planned around this time, then Matoro probably died in a way to make sure his sacrifice is permanent, or else I doubt Matoro's story arc would've been done the way it was. Besides, didn't Greg once say he wouldn't bring Matoro back? Don't know if I'm remembering wrong.@bonesii those ideas about how Lesovikk lost his sword have occured to me, and that's probably it; I don't think a complex explanation is needed. However, I do wonder where Lesovikk went. Was Greg planning to have him meet Orde, Chiara, Zaria, and Gelu?Anyways, to continue my observations:

“I had not thought of the star in so long,” Gaardus continued. “Not since the death of the Nynrah. The star was why I stayed in the Nynrah’s village for so long after my escape. Now I wonder if what I was waiting for was up there, not down among the land and water.”
This passage is very interesting, probably because of how cryptic Gaardus is. He says he hasn't thought of the star since the death of the Nynrah he killed. Now, we don't really know when Gaardus went to and left the star, right? What if he got to the star before he killed the Nynrah? We don't know how Gaardus escaped, after all. Maybe he committed suicide, died, went to the Red Star, was resurrected, and returned and killed the Nynrah. Now that he knows the star's function, he probably stayed in the village of the Nynrah awaiting their return so he can... I don't know... kill them again? That would explain his line about staying due to the Red Star. Of course, the Send Back Operator stopped working after he left, so the Nynrah never returned. Maybe Gaardus guessed this, which is why he said that maybe what he was waiting for (the Nynrah) was up there (the Red Star).Now, a problem with this theory is that there's proof Gaardus never died; his body. His body was mutated by the Nynrah; if he had been restored, wouldn't he have a new body? It's still mutated, though, and according to Gaardus his current form is thanks to the Nynrah. It can easily be explained away that Gaardus learned of the Red Star's purpose by accidently teleporting there, which would explain his later line "I didn't choose to come here."
Gaardus looked down at the ground for a long time. Then he said, very quietly, “I could bring you. But I do not want to return there. No one ever does.”
I wonder what Gaardus means by this. I suppose returning to the place where you were somehow resurrected or where you saw that happening to others wouldn't be very nice, but he seems disturbed by the place. Does this tie in with what Kopaka saw that scared him? I'm beginning to wonder if accidents during the revival process were frequent, leaving the Red Star full of mutilated, half-dead half-living beings or something.
“What are you doing here?” one of the beings asked. “You need to go back. You should be gone by now.”
This line seems a bit odd. How many Kestora are in the Red Star anyways? Three seems like a small number for such a large task. In any case, why did the Kestora think they should be gone by now? The Red Star doesn't work anymore, does it? Besides, the Kestora haven't seen Pohatu and Kopaka before, aren't they surprised to see them looking perfectly fine and alive, if they had never revived them in the first place? They act like they have and are surprised they're still there.
“No,” said another. “Don’t you remember what happened the last time? They wouldn’t go back and we had to --”
What 'last time' is he referring to? When was the last time they tried to force people to go back? His wording almost sounds like 'last time' was the first time they had trouble sending people back. Yet, if the Red Star hasn't been working or nearly 80,000 years, they should've had thousands of people come in and not leave. Did they kill all of them for good?
“But look at them!” said the first to speak. “It must be working again, or how could they be here like that?”
It's this statement that makes me wonder if the RS hasn't been receiving spirits for a while either. 'It' here might be referring to whatever system teleports MU inhabitants from the MU, which the Kestora seems to think could indicate spirits are coming in again. An alternate explanation is that they think the Reviver is working again, since Kopaka and Pohatu seem whole and well. This could support bonesii's 'damaged Reviver theory.'
The others paused, as if acknowledging their friend had a point. The one who had remembered Gaardus nodded, saying, “Very well. But if it doesn’t work, do we need to end them like the other ones?”
What doesn't work? Sending them back to the MU? That's the best interpretation, I think. The line 'ending them like the other ones' really makes me wonder how many people the Kestora have killed, especially since the Red Star seems to be far less crowded than it should be. The Kestora are definitely getting rid of people to make space, and don't seem there's any other wayas this part implies:
All three little beings produced wicked looking hand weapons. “Naturally,” said the first. “How else are we to make things right?”
I'll try to get back to this later.

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So, my keyboard's going nuts again and deleted a long post lol. Summary of what I had typed and don't have time to retype:It's not normal for people to forget they murdered people, no. :PThe Takanuva revival thing is not known to be canon; see the topic that is open on this now.I suspect the RS can send out a beam of reviving power, but only to certain machines, or highly life-energied beings like Takutanuva, to channel a fully-in-MU revival power. This would explain Jaller and Matoro 777, as well as Takanuva if that's canon. Matoro by the GB device with the red lightstones (likely meant at least as a clue by the GBs towards the purpose of the RS). And Jaller either purely by Takutanuva, or as I hope by Takutanuva redirecting the effect of one of the two dots of the UDD symbol.Keep in mind the Takanuva revival theory usually relies on the idea that the symbol is merely decoration over machines beneath it designed to do this. (However, we don't know if that's canon.) Just like how you can't logically look at a simple car hood and say there's no engine. :)However, even if it's not a machine, why should that really be stranger than the other simple objects that have protodermic powers in Bionicle? Kanoka disks are round featureless materials whose particles project powers. Likewise, the circles in the symbol could be round featureless materials with that power. I don't think it's really about that at all but again a tendency some have to treat death &/or revival differently than they do other fictional physics-powers. If you remove that "spot on your lens", revival is just another power in a universe filled with powers.

Marvel, DC Comics... and many other forms of superhero stories
Well, I've never been into those and so I wouldn't know and I'm not here to defend those comics. (Although I love the movies which tend to seem miles above the comics. :)) We're talking about Bionicle. I suspect that if you asked them, they would say something like that is simply part of the genre and is expected and even demanded by its audience. Besides, the ability to criticize does not prove the criticism reasonable. :P
have often been critizied for making death almost pointless as a plot device because it's known that any character can be brought back for any reason that a writer feels like adding. Keeping it unexplained is then better, almost
Problem is this is just your taste. If we try to judge by the fan or critic's taste, then the problem is you can always find another fan who would say that leaving it unexplained is what would make it a mere plot device.Anywho, I just think the solution to all these criticisms is simply for authors to never "use plot devices" but rather to follow the Arena Method. That is, if it is logical that something would exist in the world, it develops because of the world and the characters, not because it might happen to match up with a trope. And if that something wouldn't exist/happen/whatnot, then don't do it, even if doing so would fulfill someone's preference for a certain plot device, trope, or extraneous out-world rule. To have events in the story have no relation to what's on the other side of the Fourth Wall, except in where you as the author choose to place those windows.Make sense? :)That way -- since no matter what you do, people can level the charge of using plot devices -- if they do level the charge at you it will simply not be true. :)Now whether you think Bionicle lives up to this enough for your tastes is another question; I think it usually seems to, but sometimes does not. However, there is of course some amount of circularity in building an Arena that will likely produce the results you want, so ultimately it's all up to the author. We can make constructive criticism but I don't think basing "thou shalt not" rules on our mere personal tastes works. Furthermore, it seems clear that it's a fan's choice to build such rules that just worsens their dislike of it, rather than if they at least tried to be open to it, they might actually like it.Kinda like the kid who pretends not to like a food in order to avoid trying it -- to avoid change, or whatever -- but if they do finally try give it a chance with a positive attitude towards it finds out heshe likes it. :)Outta time for anything more now...

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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I know, I'm just letting my mind wander. Speaking of fan-fics, I got one with Lehvak-Kal hitting the Red Star after floating around in space. I had the Kestora smack-talk him, fix him up a bit and beam him down to Spherus Magna, heh.
Hm-Hm. Makes me imagine Velika on the verge of completing his evil plan, when suddenly Levak-Kal falls into the planet's atmosphere and lands on top of him. Vaporizing them both.

2! The best thing ever!

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@Bonesiii: Maybe the the "Chamber of Death" is using the same general tech the Red Star uses, just brought down to a smaller scale since it doesn't have as big a job to do (not less important however). It may not have to be connected to the Red Star.@CarkaJack: For some reason I could totally see that happening! That would suck if that was supposed to be the climax.@Main Topic: Could the "Spirit's Wish" Gateway have something to do with the Red Star? Tarduk went up that way to find it, and that's where it was on the map. Was it ever canonized that the spot was supposed to be the place of its construction and not foreshadowing for something bigger?

Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon

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Guess I've been coming off as sort of harsher here than I meant to. Sorry about that.

I see three major questions here:1) Do you enjoy Greg's typical style writing? (Methinks your answer is overall no? Mine is overall yes, enough to wish for more, but it's not perfect.)
I actually do like Greg's style of writing. It's not perfect, of course, and there might be some ways it could be improved, but overall I've enjoyed it. I've never really had a sound dislike for Greg's writing, no, but recently I have had some problem with his plot planning and general adherence to common media tropes.
]2) Can you enjoy this idea itself, in-story, independent of presentation style?[/b] (Methinks we could all answer yes, probably, though some might have a harder time doing so, but if you put yourself in the characters' shoes, this would be wonderful, wonderful news!)
I'm sorry, I'm still having a problem connecting that to how I read a story? I guess I can't see how the characters react to something in-story can influence or even have any impact on how I would react to it when reading it. Unless this is a biography, I'm not one of the characters. I can relate to them, but the writer can also make decisions that make me not relate to them.Basically, I'm not in the story. I can't enjoy this idea in-story, not because the characters wouldn't, but because I don't live BIONICLE. I'm not a character in BIONICLE. I instead read it once in a while from my laptop in my room. That's where my point of view comes from, and that's basically all it can come from.
]3) Can you enjoy this idea itself, out-story?[/b] (Methinks your answer is no, based on what you've said, overall? To me, big yes, but I can still get the out-story idea of it ruining finality. ---- Of course, finality ruins other out-story ideas too, so there's always pros and cons. Thus I don't judge stories based on such things but rather on whether the ideas make sense in-story. If they do, then the balance is to the pros, and this qualifies. :) Plus, dwelling on 'ruins' starts you off on a negative footing to begin with so it's unwise IMO. Better to start from a 'builds' perspective with all of them. ^_^)
I like resurrections. I actually really do. When they're done right, then can not only be entertaining, but clever and well worth the effort. But there's two main problems with this example that stop me from enjoying it:1. The escalation of danger resulting from the character death(s) isn't as meaningful as it used to be. When a main protagonist character dies, the first thought that always crosses my mind is "What?! They can't do that! He's a main character! This is a kid's toyline!" When, after a long period of time, they don't come back, that thought turns into admiration. "That was a pretty gutsy move, doing that. That character is never coming back. He can never be used again.The writer deserves credit for having the bravery to pull that off with lasting effects. Death actually means something when he writes the story." It also gives any other battle an even higher sense of danger. "Yes, the heroes don't usually lose, but then again...he died and it stuck. If the author was gutsy enough to kill him there, who knows if everyone will come back alive?"When I saw Serenity, this thought really burned into my head for the last battle scene. If it had been a usual movie, I wouldn't have been as concerned. But Joss Whedon had not only killed Bishop an hour ago, he had also just killed Wash. No one expected that. Who's to say that it wouldn't happen again to any of the characters? Those characters never came back. The weren't there at the end of the film. Death meant something in this world. Not only did no one come back, any of the main characters could be killed.This decision isn't just for one character to come back. That's not why I'm so against this. This opens up the realization that, no matter who they were, they never really died. Greg wasn't as gutsy as I thought he was and now, even if the Red Star doesn't reach Spherus Magna, it doesn't change anything. He wasn't willing to kill a main character before, so who says he'll do that now? Even if one does die, who says they can't just come back?(For the record, the only other resurrection I really have a problem with is Tuyet's. It grasped at straws far too much to be considered an actual plot twist. Not only was there a complete lack of foreshadowing (see below), but Greg had gone out of his way to make sure everyone knew she was dead (an entire section of a book was dedicated to partially resurrecting her dead body for a few moments) and he brought her back in a way that was too convoluted and a horrible use of a bait-and-switch).2. Anyone and everyone is fair game. Stan Lee has famously gone on record for saying he wanted the X-Men to be mutants because he was tired of creating new origin stories for superheroes. By saying they were a mutant, he just had to say they were born with powers and make them superheroes. I guess this is sort of the same thing. Its easy and honestly kind of lazy. Not only did no one ever die, but they can be brought back without any extra trouble.3. Lack of serious foreshadowing. This is a big reason for me, and its why I've had problems with the two recently release points of information. Greg not only didn't think of this beforehand, he also didn't foreshadow it nearly as enough as it needed to be. There aren't any hints, any clues, any after-the-credits scenes that led up to this. It just sort of comes out of nowhere. Granted, he could have made the whole Great Being thing work even if he only thought of it when he was writing The Powers That Be if he had changed the revelation. This is why I was in favor of Kapura being the Great Being. Kapura has had enough foreshadowing for it to make sense to all of us. It doesn't come out of nowhere, its been a mystery that's stuck out for a long time and gone unsolved for a long time and explains why the character behaved and acted the way he did. There has been no foreshadowing for the Red Star having all of the dead characters inside it. There were no hints leading up to this revelation. The most we've seen of the Red Star is that they line up with prophesies and there's someone inside it. The most we've seen as far as direct resurrection has been Jaller, and that was always implied to be the superpowers of Takutanuva, not in any way connected to the Red Star.It could have worked better if more attention was paid to the Red Star, if perhaps a informed character (the Turaga, Artahka, Helryx, Teridax, Axonn, possesed Brutaka, etc.) had hinted to its purpose, if there was a scene with a dead character waking up in some place spread out among the ten years of story beforehand. Even with all the faults I listed, there are ways for this to work in-theory.However, while I don't mind Greg's writing style, I do mind his sense of plot planning. These current revelations don't have the amount of thought and foreshadowing poured into them as other plot twists in the stories. If Greg was to keep continuing the serials from the point he left off, he still couldn't have given it the amount of hints and foreshadowing it needed to really work. And that's what sort of cheapens this in the end.Basically, I'll put it this way. If I had made a topic, right here, in Storyline and Theories, and theorized that the Red Star was where all the dead characters of BIONICLE went to when they died (let's ignore the fact that there's an Official Red Star topic for now =P), would you keep that open? Or would you close it because it fell under "speculation" and I didn't have enough proof? I honestly think that it would be closed, and I would totally agree with you if you did close it because there's really nothing to back it up. The same goes for Velika being the Great Being. Oh, there's some circumstantial pieces here and there, but nothing to keep up a theory topic and certainly nothing to use for a plot twist or reveal in story.(clarification: this is if I made this before the latest chapter of TPTB was released, of course; once they actually go to the Red Star and meet Mavrah they've sort of crossed the point of no return for foreshadowing and hit revelation time)

Edited by Kahi
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