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Is Teridax the best villain ever?

Teridax villain comparison

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#41 Offline ~Shockwave~

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:08 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

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#42 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:17 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

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#43 Offline Scanty Demon

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:18 PM

It was just that he didn't seem to do much after he took over Mata Nui other than just be some tyrant begging to overthrown. Miserix was utterly pointless sure who was important before Teridax took over, but what did he actually do when he was found other than kill another makuta. Besides the Order wanted him isn't that reason enough to kill Miserix, plus Teribot (Teridax + MU robot) had shown he was willing to kill anyone who opposed him. Why not use Miserix as an example to show he is invincible? I will concede to you about thelonger he waited the more powerful they became.

But what did you want him to do. It was made clear in the story that it was taking awhile for Teridax to adapt to his new body and power, and pretty much the entire MU was rebelling, so he hasbusy with that most of the time. Right after that was done he went off to face Mata Nui. Also, killing Miserix woudn't show much; he already showed his invincibility in various other ways (e.g. killing Guardian). In fact, I found how Teridax dealt with Miserix, by onvincing him that he was a painting and those who saw him that he was a painting was cruel and sadistic, and was more effective than if Teridax had simply killed him.Also, about no one having a chance to overthrow Teridax- I'm sure most people thought Mata Nui couldn't be overthrown, and yet he was. Teridax knows better than anyone that you could be brought down from the inside; his actions regarding the Makuta were pretty necessary.(Can I mention being irked that people downsize Teridax having his whole body crushed once and having his head bashed in a 'rock' that's over 300 miles long irksome as merely a 'rock' :P )

There's a bit of canon discontinuity between how Teridax died. The comics say a rock hit him in the head, the Mata Nui Saga said the planet crushed him so all we know is that teridax died because of a space rock. God I can't keep a straight face when I say that.Teridax did kill Guardian, but Guardian was killed in front of two people and wasn't as powerful Teridax. Miserix on the hand, Teridax wanted dead but Krika screwed that up big time so why not finish the job you wanted done before. Besides he was planning this for a long time he should of as least had some knowledge on how to operate the MU robot. Also there is the problem of letting your universe die that you're screwed if your universe dies especially when you're on a planet that is nothing but water. I wanted Teridax to do something other than just take over the universe or use the universe to further his other plans, all he did was stand around and beg to get overthrown. He also could have made his rahkshi do all the tasks the Matoran did so that there would be less likely a chance of rebellion.

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#44 Offline ~Shockwave~

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:22 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

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#45 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:23 PM

It was just that he didn't seem to do much after he took over Mata Nui other than just be some tyrant begging to overthrown. Miserix was utterly pointless sure who was important before Teridax took over, but what did he actually do when he was found other than kill another makuta. Besides the Order wanted him isn't that reason enough to kill Miserix, plus Teribot (Teridax + MU robot) had shown he was willing to kill anyone who opposed him. Why not use Miserix as an example to show he is invincible? I will concede to you about thelonger he waited the more powerful they became.

But what did you want him to do. It was made clear in the story that it was taking awhile for Teridax to adapt to his new body and power, and pretty much the entire MU was rebelling, so he hasbusy with that most of the time. Right after that was done he went off to face Mata Nui. Also, killing Miserix woudn't show much; he already showed his invincibility in various other ways (e.g. killing Guardian). In fact, I found how Teridax dealt with Miserix, by onvincing him that he was a painting and those who saw him that he was a painting was cruel and sadistic, and was more effective than if Teridax had simply killed him.Also, about no one having a chance to overthrow Teridax- I'm sure most people thought Mata Nui couldn't be overthrown, and yet he was. Teridax knows better than anyone that you could be brought down from the inside; his actions regarding the Makuta were pretty necessary.(Can I mention being irked that people downsize Teridax having his whole body crushed once and having his head bashed in a 'rock' that's over 300 miles long irksome as merely a 'rock' :P )

There's a bit of canon discontinuity between how Teridax died. The comics say a rock hit him in the head, the Mata Nui Saga said the planet crushed him so all we know is that teridax died because of a space rock. God I can't keep a straight face when I say that.Teridax did kill Guardian, but Guardian was killed in front of two people and wasn't as powerful Teridax. Miserix on the hand, Teridax wanted dead but Krika screwed that up big time so why not finish the job you wanted done before. Besides he was planning this for a long time he should of as least had some knowledge on how to operate the MU robot. Also there is the problem of letting your universe die that you're screwed if your universe dies especially when you're on a planet that is nothing but water. I wanted Teridax to do something other than just take over the universe or use the universe to further his other plans, all he did was stand around and beg to get overthrown. He also could have made his rahkshi do all the tasks the Matoran did so that there would be less likely a chance of rebellion.

I can. :PI really think the Misrerix thing is a nitpick; at the end of the day it didn't matter, so I'll drop that discussion here, since we could both keep going on about it :PTeridax was obviously planning more once he took over, but was first distracted by the MU and then Mata Nui, so yeahThe Rahkshi couldn't really have done the Matoran's tasks. I mean, think about it... almost none of Metru Nui's occupations could've feasibly been done by them. Moreso, Makuta was not going to be a kind dictator (does that make sense?) , it'd be out of character.

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#46 Offline Takanuvainika

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:36 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

First off; the great beings didn't make the makuta, Mata-Nui did (but that's just a nitpick). Anyway if he could do that why didn't he do it to make it so his own enemies didn't existed.

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#47 Offline Scanty Demon

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:47 PM

I can. :PI really think the Misrerix thing is a nitpick; at the end of the day it didn't matter, so I'll drop that discussion here, since we could both keep going on about it :PTeridax was obviously planning more once he took over, but was first distracted by the MU and then Mata Nui, so yeahThe Rahkshi couldn't really have done the Matoran's tasks. I mean, think about it... almost none of Metru Nui's occupations could've feasibly been done by them. Moreso, Makuta was not going to be a kind dictator (does that make sense?) , it'd be out of character.

The only reason Miserix bugs me is because once he is introduced we hear his back story, he does nothing in the present. He seemed kinda pointless to keep alive. So yeah that's the only reason I keep bringing him up. So yeah we should stop talking about him, this about Teridax not Miserix.

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#48 Offline ~Shockwave~

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:53 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

First off; the great beings didn't make the makuta, Mata-Nui did (but that's just a nitpick). Anyway if he could do that why didn't he do it to make it so his own enemies didn't existed.

Because, he was an anomaly, he was not meant to be, the travelers where created out of the need to destroy him, he could not stop it if he wanted to.he did not have the power, nor the desire to destroy the force that created him and the other travelers, all he could was destroy what it had created, or convince its soldiers to join his cause. and it's clear how long destroying that force worked for him.

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#49 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:54 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

Who said the GBs will listen? :PBut we should drop this, hypothetical scenarios can go on endlessly.EDIT: Also, Felix, about an earlier point referring to Teridax's plan being risky, you're right, he took a lot of risks and the plan was designed so precisely that a small setback might've ruined it, but let's remember that Teridax did not sit back and hope for the best, he directly interfered to make sure things went as they were supposed to. Also, let's not forget Teridax's constant back-up plans; if something had gone wrong, I'm sure he had other plans to fall back to.

Edited by toa kopaka4372, Oct 15 2012 - 09:57 PM.

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#50 Offline ~Shockwave~

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 09:57 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

Who said the GBs will listen? :PBut we should drop this, hypothetical scenarios can go on endlessly.

agreed. but I'm still right :P anyway, while makuta may be a good one, he is not the best. not by a long shot.

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#51 Offline The Lord Of Wednesday

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 10:05 PM

Well, as we know this is a subjective matter, but I do certainly love Teridax as a villain, and he is certainly up there on my personal list, but there are others on my list too. For example, Palpatine is someone who I would rate higher, and the W'rkncacnter are another.
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#52 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 10:16 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

Who said the GBs will listen? :PBut we should drop this, hypothetical scenarios can go on endlessly.

agreed. but I'm still right :P anyway, while makuta may be a good one, he is not the best. not by a long shot.

No, as for me personally Teridax is my all-time favorite villain. It all comes down to personal taste; there are many reasons I love Teridax as a villain, and some have nothing to do with how much power he has. Like I said, personal taste.

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#53 Offline Takanuvainika

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 10:16 PM

I didn't know this was such a controversial subject, and imo Teridax lost some points for not getting rid of Mata-Nui better but the only battles he actually lost were secondary goals like the mask of time and the nui-stone, and of course he lost the final battle but so does every villain, does Saint Dane have that kind of record?

he would literally laugh at makuta, and get away with it.

Couldn't Makuta laugh at him and get away with it too? He does have teleportation powers too. :P

Saint Dane could go behind him seconds before he teleported. you cannot win this battle. :P

You mean he'd chase Teridax? How'd he know where Teridax teleported to? :P

He will go back in time and convince the great beings that the makuta are a terrible Idea. and yes he could actually accomplish that. :Pface it, Saint Dane wins.Because that's the way it was meant to be.

Who said the GBs will listen? :PBut we should drop this, hypothetical scenarios can go on endlessly.

agreed. but I'm still right :P anyway, while makuta may be a good one, he is not the best. not by a long shot.

Face it they are pretty much equal, while Saint Dane can travel through time, Teridax has 42 different powers to use on him in a fight.

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#54 Offline The Lord Of Wednesday

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 10:23 PM

As cool as having two characters of other works of fiction fight each other is, it is often too hard to quantify, no one will be happy with the result, and there is no real way to conclude the result is what would actually happen. At least in pretty much every case I can think of it is like that, sure there can be obvious ones but otherwise that is subjective. Either way it is probably best to drop it, as at least one of you suggested.
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#55 Offline ~Shockwave~

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 10:29 PM

Face it they are pretty much equal, while Saint Dane can travel through time, Teridax has 42 different powers to use on him in a fight.

my memory is spotty at best. so I may not have mentioned everything, but whatever...consider this side conversation over, no one is going to convince anyone else, and neither of us is wrong. and *does a drum major cut off* done.

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#56 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 11:08 PM

Speaking of the final battle, just how many times did Mata-Nui use his last ounce of energy?

Once. :P

Using the last of his energy, Mata Nui rose and shoved Makuta into the path of the planetoid.

Teridax did kill Guardian, but Guardian was killed in front of two people and wasn't as powerful Teridax. Miserix on the hand, Teridax wanted dead but Krika screwed that up big time so why not finish the job you wanted done before. Besides he was planning this for a long time he should of as least had some knowledge on how to operate the MU robot. Also there is the problem of letting your universe die that you're screwed if your universe dies especially when you're on a planet that is nothing but water. I wanted Teridax to do something other than just take over the universe or use the universe to further his other plans, all he did was stand around and beg to get overthrown. He also could have made his rahkshi do all the tasks the Matoran did so that there would be less likely a chance of rebellion.

*pictures Rahkshi trying to operate a Ko-Metru telescope* :lol: Seriously,though, I doubt that Rahkshi would be...well tempered...enough for Matoran work. And why waste the resources when you have Matoran who will do it for you if you threaten them well enough? After all, Teridax wanted the Matoran to suffer for not giving him the honor and glory he deserved, so a good torture is making them serve your interests for all time.As for Miserix, he tried to kill him by ejecting him into outer space. Not like he didn't try. I doubt he would have been a very good example of Teridax's tyranny, because he had been locked up for a awhile at Artidax, so he wasn't really well known, except possibly among the people whom he was ejected out into space with.@The Big Rock: Actually, that's Makuta's weakness - brilliant, yet seemingly can't seem to get that big rocks smash things, and usually cause pain and damage on the things that are hurt. That's a pretty dumb weakness, IMO, which could possibly disqualify Teridax from the "best villain of all time" slot. :)

Edited by fishers64, Oct 15 2012 - 11:13 PM.

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#57 Offline Takanuvainika

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 11:23 PM

I thought he already used his last energy to force Makuta's hand upwards, and he used his last energies to heal Spherus Magna.
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#58 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 15 2012 - 11:55 PM

I thought he already used his last energy to force Makuta's hand upwards, and he used his last energies to heal Spherus Magna.

No, not force Makuta's arm up...it was to shove Makuta into the moon. There's no reference in the "forcing Makuta's arm up" passage to "last bit of energy."Yes, it's a bit inconsistent. :shrugs: What I think that quote referred to was how much energy Mata Nui could draw from his power source at any given time while forestalling giant robot implosion. So, at the moment when he was shoving Makuta into the moon, he was using the last bit of energy he could draw from the power source at that time. But then, after Makuta was defeated, he had a bit of time to "recharge" and pull all of the remaining energy from the power source into the act of reforming SM.

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#59 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 12:11 AM

It was just that he didn't seem to do much after he took over Mata Nui other than just be some tyrant begging to overthrown

Well, yeah... :P He was a tyrant, and they always beg to be overthrown... People don't like tyrants.Maybe you're driving at the idea that he could have been one of those "pretend to be nice" tyrants. But I don't think many in the MU would have fallen for it. The idea that Mata Nui was their Great Spirit was so engrained. I think Teridax had that in mind for the future, probably after another mindwipe, since that's been his MO before. But first he wanted to eliminate threats.

Miserix was utterly pointless sure who was important before Teridax took over, but what did he actually do when he was found other than kill another makuta.

I don't even want to bother analyzing that for now, because isn't it beside the point? The Order couldn't know whether freeing him would work or not beforehand. They just knew they had to do whatever they could to try. Also, when they freed him, did they even have a clue what Terry was actually planning? (I don't recall, so it's not rhetorical. :P)Also, I seem to recall he did do something along the way, but I dunno.

Besides the Order wanted him isn't that reason enough to kill Miserix, plus Teribot (Teridax + MU robot) had shown he was willing to kill anyone who opposed him. Why not use Miserix as an example to show he is invincible? I will concede to you about thelonger he waited the more powerful they became.

I got the impression he wanted to horrify them by using him as an example of the kind of "fate worse than death" kinda things he could do. Look, we all get it, killing your opposition is certainly a generally wiser strategy and it's a cliche tactic of villains to sometimes randomly not do it, and a cliche plot device that this strategic blunder comes back to bite them later. But I'm honestly not certain that this legitimately applies here, is what I'm saying.It's hard to be certain, but it really is a vastly different scenario. Also, IMO major kudos to Bionicle and specifically Greg for not turning it into that cliche with the bite-later idea. And this fact makes me think all the more that what Terry did was also not intended as the cliche.Also, what if Terry needed to "pick his brain"? He might honestly regret killing him. So he did something that apparently only he could reverse. Turned out TK could do it, but yeah. Even so, Miserix really couldn't do anything against Terry.

Teridax is the Universe, so I think anyone trying to take him out would more than likely be crushed by mountain they were next to them and have to worry about Teridax knowing in advance their plan. So I really think he killed all the Makuta just show how evulz he was, I understand they could've rebelled against him, but that's like you going up against the world's fastest runner in a 5k, your chances of winning against him are slim to none.

Oh, no it was definitely to prevent them from overtaking him. Like you said, he gets rid of threats. They knew the plan and had the motive. Miserix didn't, by contrast. They knew how it could be done, because they'd helped him do it.And what good would "showing how evulz" he was do for him, if that was his mere motive?

What I meant was that if any Makuta even thought about opposing Teridax, they'd be a pancake in less than a minute.

Well... there you go. ;)But seriously, why wait until you might be distracted? He couldn't focus everywhere at once, as witnessed by the resistance.And actually, I'm mostly serious. That's exactly the idea behind the brownshirt betrayal strategy. Hitler, like Terry, is a master understander of people. He knows who his servants are. He's no fool. They're like him. That's how he was able to motivate them into overthrowing the Great Spirit. Because they have the same ambition in their hearts that he does. They just aren't imaginative enough to realize he's just using them. At least some, like Gorast. And they are also factually known to all be power-hungry themselves, and often bickered over control of even little things. Witness Icarax for example.So with all seriousness, what you describe is what happened. :)

My point was Teridax's ultimate plan relied on a lot of variables that could have gone a way he could not have planed. To the point where it becomes absurd.

Lol... See, I have experimented a lot with "programming people" as I like to call it, mentalist techniques and the like, and the number one observation I've made is that if you want success, you plan for many multiple avenues, and you make your plan adaptable. I do this for the opposite motives of villains, to try to spread peace and harmony, but I know the principle works in real life, and it can be abused, and often is used by those with bad motives out there. Sometimes, both in real life and fiction, 'villains' will use these sorts of strategies.For example, whenever I debate with anyone, I'm usually more aware than they seem to be of what their most likely answers (reactions) to my statements (actions) will be, so I can choose strategically which possible things to say to produce answers I want (often that they assume wrongly that I don't want), and habitually plan out multiple such avenues to arrive at the conclusion, being aware of all of this as I go. Thus, no matter what they say (reactions, also actions that I can expect or imagine), I can adapt my strategy to it to always end up at the goal. I usually don't tell people about this, but I don't hide it (I've noticed they tend to get upset at the mere idea that it works, and I don't like to get people upset, but sometimes I do bring it up to illustrate that it is possible and happens, and help them know how to avoid being programmed by those with bad motives, or in this case to illustrate how this was plausible -- hopefully everybody here is mature enough to handle it :P). A villain does hide it, though, at least a mastermind like Terry, and he did, as someone pointed out.Now the end result is that a very specific plan ends up being used, with many intricate parts, and if that one plan was all I had, and any one part went wrong, the person I'm debating could reasonably say that it's absurd. And it would be. But the key is, I don't only use that plan. That's just the contingency branchings that actually came into play because of the choices the "opponent" did make, versus other ones they didn't that then would have triggered different contingencies.Likewise, this is why Terry was often out there or sending out his minions to chase after what might now seem to have been wastes of time because they didn't affect his actual success. Because he couldn't know the future, so he had to plan for multiple avenues. This is where it breaks from absurdity and becomes very possible.Admittedly, my debate strategy is virtually guaranteed to succeed because I'm a truthseeker, so part of what I'm seeking is that when it's showed that I am wrong, I change my mind, which isn't really comparable. But that's because I have good motives. The principle can be used with far more in-depth analysis and observation to achieve evil goals. Especially when the good guys aren't really thinking anywhere nearly on that same level.

There's a bit of canon discontinuity between how Teridax died. The comics say a rock hit him in the head, the Mata Nui Saga said the planet crushed him so all we know is that teridax died because of a space rock. God I can't keep a straight face when I say that.

Why not? It may help to imagine how it would feel if one hit you. :PBut anyways, there's no discontinuity; it was a fragment of Aqua Magna. Not Bota Magna. The one is canon, the other not. That was lack of communication with the artist of the MNS, and is really neither here nor there. :P

Teridax did kill Guardian, but Guardian was killed in front of two people and wasn't as powerful Teridax. Miserix on the hand, Teridax wanted dead but Krika screwed that up big time so why not finish the job you wanted done before.

Two completely different situations. Namely, in the first, Terry was just another Makuta and vulnerable to death by normal battle. Once in power, not.

Besides he was planning this for a long time he should of as least had some knowledge on how to operate the MU robot.

Felix, I'm getting the impression you're grasping at straws. :P It feels almost like you're trying to take the worst interpretation of many of these, as if you want the writers to have done a bad job so are pre-assuming they did. To your point, don't we all know that having book knowledge on how to operate complex vehicles and machines does not mean there's no learning curve in the actual operation? If you're not familiar with this, chances are you will become so eventually. :)There's no need to grasp at straws, we can be objective here. :) The conclusion that he was the greatest villain ever is not set in stone. But in judging that, we should be realistic to the world. The writers shouldn't, for example, avoid a realistic challenge Makuta would meet, just to artificially make him seem even scarier; I think that would just make us disconnect from suspension of disbelief. The greatest villains are still people with realistic limitations. Kinda like the greatest heroes, only not.

Also there is the problem of letting your universe die that you're screwed if your universe dies especially when you're on a planet that is nothing but water. I wanted Teridax to do something other than just take over the universe or use the universe to further his other plans

What else is there? You either take over and do nothing else, or you take over and do other things. Doesn't that cover all possibilities?

He also could have made his rahkshi do all the tasks the Matoran did so that there would be less likely a chance of rebellion.

Erm... Ouch. The story has made it crystal clear Rahkshi are destroyers. That's all they're good at. You really want them to take over the maintenance workers' jobs? Especially when the thing you need them to maintain is your own body now?Come now, come now.Exo-Toa, maybe, though. But they're not smart enough probably. :shrugs:It's like, a villain has the choice to take captive a bunch of premier doctors and force them to keep him healthy, or suffer consequences (kill family, etc. as is often used in other fiction), or he could give the job to his pet crocodiles.

I really think the Misrerix thing is a nitpick; at the end of the day it didn't matter

Honestly I think it's the opposite of a nitpick; I think some of us have actually missed the point of it. We're comparing Teridax to other villains in other situations, in which keeping your main competition for the old "highest job" alive would be very stupid, and missing the obvious -- that this is not those other situations in those other franchises, and Miserix really was no threat at all. But what he DID provide was a massively terrifying example of what could happen to you if you fight.Also, I think it shows that Terry isn't just a mindless killer type villain. Maybe it shows there's some ounce of 'humanity', as it were, left in him, but also he may simply realize that Miserix could be a useful pawn for the future (though unwilling). I think he was thinking of the same reasoning that Greg has pointed out for why Toa do not kill -- morality aside, it's generally stupid. You never know when that villain while captured could spill some useful bit of info you need, or possibly in the future play an important role. Teridax has no moral qualms about killing, but he would rather be more tactical about it, saving it for those who are more serious threats, or like Guardian highly unlikely to ever serve a useful purpose for him.

agreed. but I'm still right :P anyway, while makuta may be a good one, he is not the best. not by a long shot.

Well, I dunno about that long shot part. ;)It's interesting though.

Well, as we know this is a subjective matter, but I do certainly love Teridax as a villain, and he is certainly up there on my personal list, but there are others on my list too. For example, Palpatine is someone who I would rate higher,

Really? Since I brought him up too, I'm really curious if you could elaborate as to why? There's something about him I couldn't quite put my finger on, but if I'm asked to justify putting him higher, I honestly can't. Teridax's plan seemed far more impressive.Although I guess the scope of Palpatine's success is by definition much, much greater. :shrugs:

@The Big Rock: Actually, that's Makuta's weakness - brilliant, yet seemingly can't seem to get that big rocks smash things, and usually cause pain and damage on the things that are hurt. That's a pretty dumb weakness, IMO, which could possibly disqualify Teridax from the "best villain of all time" slot. :)

Given that none of us (as far as I've heard) thought of Mata Nui's trick at the end there, I'm not sure this is fair. Surely Teridax is well aware rocks hurt, just like people are aware bullets hurt, but even the brightest of the bright can still get killed by one in an ambush. Which is essentially how that functioned.I know I joke about "shoulda looked up" a lot, but in all seriousness, it would be hard to think of that or to spot it at the speeds were talking about.Besides, he included at least one "big rock smash" in his plan, and like I said, that (the MOL door) was actually one of the biggest examples of his planning ahead we saw in story, so I don't think it's canonically plausible that he didn't understand it.

I thought he already used his last energy to force Makuta's hand upwards, and he used his last energies to heal Spherus Magna.

Pretty sure you're missing the point of a figure of speech. We humans "use up our last bit of strength" all the time and then we still have some afterwards, either because we generate new strength easily (try holding your arm out straight forever... when it gives out, let it rest a bit, and you'll find I'm right), or because we only felt like we were using our last and just meant it as how it felt rather than a scientific measurement. :-PAnd that's off-topic here...

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 16 2012 - 12:26 AM.

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#60 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 01:29 AM

Miserix was utterly pointless sure who was important before Teridax took over, but what did he actually do when he was found other than kill another makuta.

I don't even want to bother analyzing that for now, because isn't it beside the point? The Order couldn't know whether freeing him would work or not beforehand. They just knew they had to do whatever they could to try. Also, when they freed him, did they even have a clue what Terry was actually planning? (I don't recall, so it's not rhetorical. :P)Also, I seem to recall he did do something along the way, but I dunno.

Yes, the Order had a clue what he was actually planning, because they sent the Toa Hagah to investigate the Core Processor. And Miserix actually rescued said Toa from being melted by lava in one of the Core Processor's traps...not exactly good-for-nothing.

@The Big Rock: Actually, that's Makuta's weakness - brilliant, yet seemingly can't seem to get that big rocks smash things, and usually cause pain and damage on the things that are hurt. That's a pretty dumb weakness, IMO, which could possibly disqualify Teridax from the "best villain of all time" slot. :)

Given that none of us (as far as I've heard) thought of Mata Nui's trick at the end there, I'm not sure this is fair. Surely Teridax is well aware rocks hurt, just like people are aware bullets hurt, but even the brightest of the bright can still get killed by one in an ambush. Which is essentially how that functioned.I know I joke about "shoulda looked up" a lot, but in all seriousness, it would be hard to think of that or to spot it at the speeds were talking about.Besides, he included at least one "big rock smash" in his plan, and like I said, that (the MOL door) was actually one of the biggest examples of his planning ahead we saw in story, so I don't think it's canonically plausible that he didn't understand it.

And that so my logic my unraveled spectacularly, and revealed to have more holes than swiss cheese. Thanks.

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#61 Online Rooster Nui

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 03:06 AM

Teridax is my personal favorite, however he could possibly be the best villain also, who knows what he is planning even though he is dead. :sigh:
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#62 Offline The Lord Of Wednesday

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 06:44 AM

@BonesiiiI chose Palpatine because his plans went far deeper then the movies, and those don't do him any justice, really. A lot of what he did was part of a plan similar to Teridax's in that he also planned his defeats, such as when he made it seem as though he lost to Mace Windu (which he did to convince Anakin to join his side, if Palpatine had won conventionally, then Anakin probably would not have joined him), and made complex plans based on how others would act, like Teridax, it worked. He also managed to return from the dead and was powerful enough to defeat Luke Skywalker in a lightsaber duel, and turn him to the darkside.My description does not do it any justice either, but I think you get the picture.
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#63 Offline Darkon219

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 03:48 PM

You all know what? Just take this: http://fc00.devianta...by_Krekka01.jpg
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#64 Offline I Exist

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 05:09 PM

Teridax is of course one of the beat villain ever!
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#65 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 07:48 PM

Well, I think the problem here is that we're all looking at everything in the context of Terry's Plan. Megatron's strategies would be just as effective, if not more direct, although Megatron is less skilled than Teridax, leading to his lack of success. Teridax was thousands of steps ahead of the Toa, yet villains like Megatron were mostly on the same level as their rival, I think most of Terry's success could be attributed to this. As well, most villains tried to change what will happen. Terry, however, attempts to change the result of what would happen anyways. By doing this, the outcomes of battles will prove inconsequential and he will inevitably be the true victor. Of course, this would only work in a destiny-driven world like Bionicle. But, if given this unique opportunity, I wonder if villains like Loki would be just as competent as Teridax.
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#66 Offline Lewigi

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Posted Oct 16 2012 - 08:24 PM

Well, I think the problem here is that we're all looking at everything in the context of Terry's Plan. Megatron's strategies would be just as effective, if not more direct, although Megatron is less skilled than Teridax, leading to his lack of success. Teridax was thousands of steps ahead of the Toa, yet villains like Megatron were mostly on the same level as their rival, I think most of Terry's success could be attributed to this. As well, most villains tried to change what will happen. Terry, however, attempts to change the result of what would happen anyways. By doing this, the outcomes of battles will prove inconsequential and he will inevitably be the true victor. Of course, this would only work in a destiny-driven world like Bionicle. But, if given this unique opportunity, I wonder if villains like Loki would be just as competent as Teridax.

He has a point here. We've all been giving Teridax home-field advantage here, but there are other's with much greater handicaps.Look at, say, Lex Luthor. He's Superman's archnemesis, yet he has no powers. Sure, he has the old standby, kryptonite, but most of what he does are schemes,And I think of another Superman villain, Brainiac, in JLU. he worked behind the scenes to absolutely stun the US Government, the expanded Justice League, Lex Luthor, and lost only because of a Deus ex Machina speed force boosted Flash. And he also manipulated Darkseid and the Justice League before that in that TV show too. Teridax isn't the only one to have big time plans and succeed.

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#67 Offline Kahi

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 12:48 PM

Well, I sat down and reread a lot of the saga guides from BS01, as well as several of the Story Serials and Journey's End. What really interested me was that there was a ton of stuff just mentioned off-handily or implied that could have made Teridax a real, three dimensional character. But none of it was really brought out or shown in story. Instead, we got a Saturday-morning world/universe conquering villain. And it didn't help that there was also the same kind of stuff implied to make Mata Nui an actual, interesting character in 2009 and heighten his character development and interactions with the Bara Magnans. But instead we got the pure embodiment of Mr. Goody Two-Shoes, ready to help and to please and to win the day as soon as he got ejected from his robot body.
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#68 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 12:52 PM

Well, I sat down and reread a lot of the saga guides from BS01, as well as several of the Story Serials and Journey's End. What really interested me was that there was a ton of stuff just mentioned off-handily or implied that could have made Teridax a real, three dimensional character. But none of it was really brought out or shown in story. Instead, we got a Saturday-morning world/universe conquering villain. And it didn't help that there was also the same kind of stuff implied to make Mata Nui an actual, interesting character in 2009 and heighten his character development and interactions with the Bara Magnans. But instead we got the pure embodiment of Mr. Goody Two-Shoes, ready to help and to please and to win the day as soon as he got ejected from his robot body.

What was "mentioned off-handedly or implied" that could make Teridax (and Mata Nui) a more three-dimensional character than you saw?

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#69 Offline Kahi

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 01:42 PM

Well, I sat down and reread a lot of the saga guides from BS01, as well as several of the Story Serials and Journey's End. What really interested me was that there was a ton of stuff just mentioned off-handily or implied that could have made Teridax a real, three dimensional character. But none of it was really brought out or shown in story. Instead, we got a Saturday-morning world/universe conquering villain. And it didn't help that there was also the same kind of stuff implied to make Mata Nui an actual, interesting character in 2009 and heighten his character development and interactions with the Bara Magnans. But instead we got the pure embodiment of Mr. Goody Two-Shoes, ready to help and to please and to win the day as soon as he got ejected from his robot body.

What was "mentioned off-handedly or implied" that could make Teridax (and Mata Nui) a more three-dimensional character than you saw?

The big thing that stood out was that Journey's End explicitly mentions that Mata Nui didn't really care about the MU inhabitants at all until he went to Bara Magna. That in and of itself changes everything. It changes perspective on everything we've thought of since we first heard the name Mata Nui. It can even change Makuta's motivation itself. And it could especially change 2009.I realized the reason why I disliked the end of 2009 so much. It wasn't just that a lot of the characters there were kind of bland. It was the Mata Nui character. He was so perfect. He taught them all everything. He didn't need to learn anything except how to fight. He taught everyone else how to be heroes and gave them elemental powers to boot.But he just a couple minutes ago didn't care about his inhabitants and he got booted out of his giant robot body. Where's the character development in that? Why was he so eager to help people and get back to everyone as soon as he landed? Why did he start caring about everyone automatically? He had lived his entire life as the most powerful being in existence, with workers going day and night with the only purpose of serving him. He should have been that when he landed. A stranded hero with a god complex that has to learn to help and care about people instead of himself. He has to learn everyone is just as important as he is. That would have made 2009 a lot more interesting, as well as the Mata Nui character much more interesting.And Teridax...don't even get me started with Teridax. This entire revelation could change everything about the way we viewed him. He spends his entire life working to protect these people who ignore him and instead worship Mata Nui, who doesn't even care about them in the slightest. AND he was supposed to be the second robot to reform Spherus Magna, but then the Great Beings just left. In fact, if you just tweak his origin, you could easily reform the brother-like structure they had in 2001 and...You know, I think I might just go off and write some fan-fiction about this. I think I'm on to something here. This could work.

Edited by Kahi, Oct 26 2012 - 01:46 PM.

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#70 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 02:03 PM

If by "best" you mean "most effective at what he does", then I suppose that's a yes, considering he had the most ambitious evil plan and even brought it to fruition (at least temporarily). If you mean "best" as in "most interesting", the answer's far less clear-cut. I loved many of the villains, from Vezon (whose plans rarely came to fruition, although he wasn't much for plans anyway) to Icarax (whose bluster and impatience made him an excellent foil for Teridax). Just because they were never as powerful or successful as Teridax doesn't take away from how great they were as characters.
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#71 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 03:16 PM

Kahi, I think you have a very interesting perspective. If you write that fanfiction, consider yourself with a reader - that would be an excellent story to tell, and I look forward to reading it. :)

The big thing that stood out was that Journey's End explicitly mentions that Mata Nui didn't really care about the MU inhabitants at all until he went to Bara Magna. That in and of itself changes everything. It changes perspective on everything we've thought of since we first heard the name Mata Nui. It can even change Makuta's motivation itself. And it could especially change 2009.I realized the reason why I disliked the end of 2009 so much. It wasn't just that a lot of the characters there were kind of bland. It was the Mata Nui character. He was so perfect. He taught them all everything. He didn't need to learn anything except how to fight. He taught everyone else how to be heroes and gave them elemental powers to boot.But he just a couple minutes ago didn't care about his inhabitants and he got booted out of his giant robot body. Where's the character development in that? Why was he so eager to help people and get back to everyone as soon as he landed? Why did he start caring about everyone automatically? He had lived his entire life as the most powerful being in existence, with workers going day and night with the only purpose of serving him. He should have been that when he landed. A stranded hero with a god complex that has to learn to help and care about people instead of himself. He has to learn everyone is just as important as he is. That would have made 2009 a lot more interesting, as well as the Mata Nui character much more interesting.

Let's say I bomb a test. Say, a math test. The next week, I come back in, look over the test, and rework the problems on it. I learn that whatever concept that I didn't fully understand matters now, and ace the next one. Or let's say I'm in an army attacking a fortress. I'm the commander of the army, but I don't really care about the people under me that much. When the battle comes, they all desert me and I get run over and am forced to flee. A year goes by, and I recruit new members to my army, and I go out of my way to care for them. I've learned from my mistake, and I win the next battle. Mata Nui didn't care about his inside inhabitants (the mistake). He got busted by Makuta (like me flunking the test or losing the battle). Shooting through space, he has some time to reflect and realize that the people inside of him do matter, because the mistake of not paying attention to his insides caused him to be shooting through space toward what could be a collision with a star or something. Now it is possible that he could not learn from that mistake, and I agree it would be an interesting story to tell, but it is evident from the story that he did learn from it. Why wouldn't he? Just because he was the ruler of a universe didn't make him infallible or deserving of any respect. He just got booted from the universe, proof that he was fallible and well, not too high on the intelligence scale. I can just picture him thinking to himself "I seriously should care about the little people next time!". Why? Because one of the little people got him.

And Teridax...don't even get me started with Teridax. This entire revelation could change everything about the way we viewed him. He spends his entire life working to protect these people who ignore him and instead worship Mata Nui, who doesn't even care about them in the slightest. AND he was supposed to be the second robot to reform Spherus Magna, but then the Great Beings just left. In fact, if you just tweak his origin, you could easily reform the brother-like structure they had in 2001 and...

And his response to that injustice? Resolve a Matoran civil war by locking combatants in cells with angry Rahi? Take over a city and erase the memories of its inhabitants? Terrorize inhabitants of said city with beasts and other machines, etc? I could go on. There's a better way to handle lack of recognition and the top guy's inattention. Yes, what Mata Nui did was wrong. But that doesn't justify Teridax's actions, anymore than my mother locking me out of the house justifies me stealing from her jewelry box the next day.

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#72 Offline Kahi

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 03:54 PM

Kahi, I think you have a very interesting perspective. If you write that fanfiction, consider yourself with a reader - that would be an excellent story to tell, and I look forward to reading it. :)

The big thing that stood out was that Journey's End explicitly mentions that Mata Nui didn't really care about the MU inhabitants at all until he went to Bara Magna. That in and of itself changes everything. It changes perspective on everything we've thought of since we first heard the name Mata Nui. It can even change Makuta's motivation itself. And it could especially change 2009.I realized the reason why I disliked the end of 2009 so much. It wasn't just that a lot of the characters there were kind of bland. It was the Mata Nui character. He was so perfect. He taught them all everything. He didn't need to learn anything except how to fight. He taught everyone else how to be heroes and gave them elemental powers to boot.But he just a couple minutes ago didn't care about his inhabitants and he got booted out of his giant robot body. Where's the character development in that? Why was he so eager to help people and get back to everyone as soon as he landed? Why did he start caring about everyone automatically? He had lived his entire life as the most powerful being in existence, with workers going day and night with the only purpose of serving him. He should have been that when he landed. A stranded hero with a god complex that has to learn to help and care about people instead of himself. He has to learn everyone is just as important as he is. That would have made 2009 a lot more interesting, as well as the Mata Nui character much more interesting.

Let's say I bomb a test. Say, a math test. The next week, I come back in, look over the test, and rework the problems on it. I learn that whatever concept that I didn't fully understand matters now, and ace the next one.Or let's say I'm in an army attacking a fortress. I'm the commander of the army, but I don't really care about the people under me that much. When the battle comes, they all desert me and I get run over and am forced to flee. A year goes by, and I recruit new members to my army, and I go out of my way to care for them. I've learned from my mistake, and I win the next battle.Mata Nui didn't care about his inside inhabitants (the mistake). He got busted by Makuta (like me flunking the test or losing the battle). Shooting through space, he has some time to reflect and realize that the people inside of him do matter, because the mistake of not paying attention to his insides caused him to be shooting through space toward what could be a collision with a star or something.Now it is possible that he could not learn from that mistake, and I agree it would be an interesting story to tell, but it is evident from the story that he did learn from it. Why wouldn't he? Just because he was the ruler of a universe didn't make him infallible or deserving of any respect. He just got booted from the universe, proof that he was fallible and well, not too high on the intelligence scale. I can just picture him thinking to himself "I seriously should care about the little people next time!". Why? Because one of the little people got him.

And Teridax...don't even get me started with Teridax. This entire revelation could change everything about the way we viewed him. He spends his entire life working to protect these people who ignore him and instead worship Mata Nui, who doesn't even care about them in the slightest. AND he was supposed to be the second robot to reform Spherus Magna, but then the Great Beings just left. In fact, if you just tweak his origin, you could easily reform the brother-like structure they had in 2001 and...

And his response to that injustice? Resolve a Matoran civil war by locking combatants in cells with angry Rahi? Take over a city and erase the memories of its inhabitants? Terrorize inhabitants of said city with beasts and other machines, etc? I could go on. There's a better way to handle lack of recognition and the top guy's inattention. Yes, what Mata Nui did was wrong. But that doesn't justify Teridax's actions, anymore than my mother locking me out of the house justifies me stealing from her jewelry box the next day.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I'm not saying that Makuta was a good guy all along, or that Mata Nui couldn't have realized the importance of the Matoran on the way down. I'm just stating that putting those things into the forefront makes them interesting. Makuta's actions were not justifiable, not in the slightest. But developing him more would make his character more interesting. Same with Mata Nui. Making him more of superiority-complex riddled individual and actually having him learn to care about others is much more effective than just mentioning it on the way down.In the case of Mata Nui, it makes them imperfect people with flaws and reasons and emotions and lessons they need to learn. In the case of Makuta, it gives us something more than just a world-conquering maniac, an actual three-dimensional character, if you will. The whole "jealousy" thing has been mentioned since the beginning of BIONICLE, but there's so much more you could go into examining, even with just cobbling different facts from the story arcs at large. True, having a Freudian Excuse can have varying results depending on the writer, but given what we have it could be used to a great effect, albeit, like I said before, with a small tinkering of the origin.

Edited by Kahi, Oct 26 2012 - 03:56 PM.

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#73 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 04:39 PM

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Thank you for clarifying.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I'm not saying that Makuta was a good guy all along, or that Mata Nui couldn't have realized the importance of the Matoran on the way down. I'm just stating that putting those things into the forefront makes them interesting.

To the point in bold, I agree. It does.

IMakuta's actions were not justifiable, not in the slightest. But developing him more would make his character more interesting. Same with Mata Nui. Making him more of superiority-complex riddled individual and actually having him learn to care about others is much more effective than just mentioning it on the way down.

Effective at what?

In the case of Mata Nui, it makes them imperfect people with flaws and reasons and emotions and lessons they need to learn. In the case of Makuta, it gives us something more than just a world-conquering maniac, an actual three-dimensional character, if you will. The whole "jealousy" thing has been mentioned since the beginning of BIONICLE, but there's so much more you could go into examining, even with just cobbling different facts from the story arcs at large. True, having a Freudian Excuse can have varying results depending on the writer, but given what we have it could be used to a great effect, albeit, like I said before, with a small tinkering of the origin.

True, such things can be used to good effect, I've seen it before. That's part of the reason I want to see you write that story. (I don't get the reference to Freud, though. :???:)I think you have a valid point here, I'm just trying to examine it. I'm curious, because I haven't heard this perspective before. It's interesting.What bothers me though is why. Why didn't they do it your way, if that way makes characters more interesting, the portrayal more effective, and so on? Why do you think they did it the way they did, and ignored what you've just said in the last three posts?

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#74 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 05:46 PM

the end of 2009... It wasn't just that a lot of the characters there were kind of bland. It was the Mata Nui character. He was so perfect. He taught them all everything. He didn't need to learn anything except how to fight.

Let's not forget that he had already learned his lesson about not caring, and I dunno about "anything". Also of course we would expect such a character to have much to teach. But I do think there's a lot of truth to this.In my first draft of this post I gave an example of how I think it could have gone... but I realized I'm tipping my hand for my fanfic plans so I'll shut up. :P Anywho.

in the slightest

Hm... what was the actual quote? I thought it was more like "not as much as he should have."

Now it is possible that he could not learn from that mistake, and I agree it would be an interesting story to tell, but it is evident from the story that he did learn from it. Why wouldn't he?

I agree. Stories should be realistic, not go out of their way to add flaws just for the sake of doing so. However, I know of a way to do it realistically. :ziplip:A big part of this also is probably just that the younger fans would not have been able to accept such a wild departure from the image of Mata Nui they accepted previously. (Mostly by just assuming it, but yeah.) Also, what was actually going on here might be being somewhat misunderstood. Greg commented about this that to Mata Nui it would be like suggesting you should personally care about your individual cells -- and we must keep in mind full sapience was not planned. How much Mata Nui knew about that and when is not clear.It may be very possible that the first he realized it was in the moments leading up to his falling asleep, as he realized this was done to him by an evil, and putting two and two together, it had to be an evil inside him, which meant freewill was possible, which meant full sapience was possible, which meant they weren't just cells after all. To be realistic, both his original attitude and his sudden change of attitude do make perfect sense. It wasn't really a change of heart from a cold, uncaring leader. It wasn't likely a change of heart much at all; he was created to be caring. He just didn't know until that moment (IMO) that there was anybody to care about inside him.

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#75 Offline Thunder on the Mountain

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 06:13 PM

Teridax was very good as a Bionicle villain. (Not I haven't bothered reading the last page and a half worth of argument. I just like Teridax. :P)Best Villain ever though? Nah. Grand Admiral Thrawn takes the cake for my all-time favorite evil villain, and honestly I've always preferred stories that demonstrate antagonists and protagonists with as real shades-of-grey people, without need for evil villains. Thrawn is very different from stereotypical villains, but retains enough of the archetype that he counts as my #1 in the category. :P
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#76 Offline Kahi

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Posted Oct 26 2012 - 07:12 PM

Now it is possible that he could not learn from that mistake, and I agree it would be an interesting story to tell, but it is evident from the story that he did learn from it. Why wouldn't he?

I agree. Stories should be realistic, not go out of their way to add flaws just for the sake of doing so. However, I know of a way to do it realistically. :ziplip:

Well, yes, but I think just showing Mata Nui learning would still fall under "being realistic". I'm not saying that what happened isn't possible or realistic, but that the story of him actually learning with the inhabitants of Bara Magna is as well. I also think that it's just more interesting and offers for better protagonist vs. protagonist material, rather than have the main protagonist learn his main lesson off-screen and not even mention it after the fact.There is that point of Mata Nui and how younger kids would view him. That may or may not have influenced that decision.What mostly got to me was that I never would have found that out otherwise. That just wasn't shown anywhere in 2009. The fact that they not only had a great idea for 2009 that would have made that story year all the more interesting but just didn't use it...that's what surprised me.

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#77 Offline fishers64

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Posted Oct 27 2012 - 12:22 AM

the end of 2009... It wasn't just that a lot of the characters there were kind of bland. It was the Mata Nui character. He was so perfect. He taught them all everything. He didn't need to learn anything except how to fight.

Let's not forget that he had already learned his lesson about not caring, and I dunno about "anything". Also of course we would expect such a character to have much to teach. But I do think there's a lot of truth to this.

:???: I'm confused. The last part seems to contradict the first part.

in the slightest

Hm... what was the actual quote? I thought it was more like "not as much as he should have."

"The people" Makuta said quietly. "I am surprised at this new level of concern for the little things that scurry across the sands. You never seemed to care very much about those whose work kept you alive. And yet, here you are, trying to be hero to the Bara Magnans."

This is what Kahi was referring to in his original post. This is just Makuta's perception of things; it may not be what they actually are.I decided to get something to try to clarify, and came up with these quotes from the Mata Nui Saga, the "horse's mouth":

"...and learned more about duty and friendship than I had in all the thousands of years ofbeing a robot.""The Toa and Matoran I ignored for so long fight in vain to free themselves from an evil I allowed to flourish.""After a time, I took the beings inside my metal body for granted, ignoring them and their constant squabbles tofocus on the outside universe. This neglect would cost me - and my small workers - endless misery and pain.""My inattention gave [the Makuta] various opportunities to scheme and plot."

:shrugs: The quotes imply that he got tired of them, found the outside universe more fascinating, and so on. Probably not so much not caring as much as he just got tired of them and wanted something more entertaining to focus on.

Edited by fishers64, Oct 27 2012 - 12:31 AM.

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#78 Offline Vandenreich

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Posted Oct 29 2012 - 04:19 PM

Despite his acheivements the answer is no.Though he was an outstanding character with an epic journey and eventual victory, his pathetic death dwarved him very much in my eyes. And there are quiet a number of better villians the Teridax. Perhaps in a perfect world where Greg did not have to make Bionicle so well child like (It was born of the desire to sell toys through a story. Not tell a story) He could have flourished the character of Teridax to greater heights.
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#79 Offline KlakWest

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Posted Oct 31 2012 - 10:25 PM

I think a lot of us aren't giving Teridax's death the credit it deserves.It almost seems poetic, now that I think about it. The being who spent his whole life calculating every possible outcome, forming a complex plot to become a being perceived as a god, ascending from calling himself "nothing" to becoming "everything", is suddenly defeated by something he did not expect. What destroyed him was an outcome he failed to perceive in his final attempt at fratricide and genocide. It's an ironic death that pretty much adds to his quality as a villain.Just a thought, I guess.And Kazi, out of all the "Mata Nui is the real villain" fanfic ideas I've heard of, yours is one of the most promising, can't wait to read it. :P

Edited by KlakWest, Oct 31 2012 - 10:31 PM.

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#80 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 01 2012 - 12:56 AM

I agree, Klak. It's difficult to imagine how else he could have been killed. Basically a bullet to the brain from an ambush angle that he couldn't see, and wouldn't have imagined could be pointed at him. Anything else would have been more obvious and something he likely prepared for.
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