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Ask GregF A Question!

GregF Questions BIONICLE

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#441 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 04:55 PM

I really don't have much to add, though. I think we're agreed that the Makuta don't just want to obliterate everybody, so they come up with various reasons not to at various times.

I would like to know the reason the Brotherhood had for not ending the DH War at least, when they more than likely were fully capable of it. That would pretty much answer my question.

 

I think some of the reason was that there were aspects of the Plan that were more important, as this quote reflects:

3. How’s the status of the Brotherhood/Dark Hunter War right now? Is it at a stalemate or are the Dark Hunters slowly losing ground? I know that the destruction of their base wasn’t too big a setback, but it seems like it would really lower morale.   3a. What would you say are are the chances of them allying themselves with the OoMN? 3b. The Toa?

3) They know nothing of the OOMN, so can’t ally with them, and there aren’t that many Toa out there that it’s worth allying with. Actually, the war is going a little better for the DH because a lot of the most experienced Makuta are in KN right now.

 (This was before the Dark Hunters actually allied with the OoMN.) It seems that the Makuta (at least the more important ones) were off doing other things.The other thing is that Teridax was obsessed with the Plan, and you pointed out that the Dark Hunters weren't a threat to the Plan until they came close to learning it. Then they attacked the fortress. But they didn't sent their entire force after the fortress because that would have clued the Dark Hunters in that were sitting on something valuable.(Zaktan figured it out anyway...)And even if the Dark Hunters found out the Plan, where would they have gone with it? The Toa weren't a force to be reckoned with, and they didn't know the OoMN existed. They could have tried to stop it, but then the Brotherhood would have crushed them easily, as you said. But they didn't want to waste resources doing it unless they had to (what if the Plan failed, horror of horrors?). And a war was something for the Brotherhood to amuse themselves picking at while Teridax was off executing the Plan.If the Brotherhood could have wiped out the Dark Hunters at any time, they could have stopped them from delivering information to a few novice Toa on the outskirts of the universe (and would those Toa even believe a message from the Dark Hunters anyway?). And a war is a very good context for that, to make sure nobody doubts your reasons for destroying the place.

 

And who knows - maybe the Brotherhood actually wanted some DHs to know the Plan. Zaktan proved to be very useful. :P Edit: That might have been the point, even. "Here, we have this fantabulous plan to take over the universe. Can you get over this petty disagreement and join us?" They might have have been holding out in case that was possible. On the other hand, they weren't sure that the Dark Hunters would go for it...

 

* * *I disagree slightly that TSO's conflict was "a silly war [color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;]over such a trivial thing as the death of two incompetent members[/color]". :P There was the issue with the Avohkii guards, and something minor called "I wanted the Mask of Time and you kept it from me and it ended up with a Toa" and "Dude, you are trying to destroy the universe, thus leaving me with nothing to steal or amuse myself doing anymore." As such, I don't think the Dark Hunters would fall into line with the Brotherhood again ever (and they didn't), and any expectations that they would do so were very erroneous, since those grievances were very real. (Although they might have had those expectations, who knows? :shrugs:)

 

And I actually caught the reference. :P I get zero mega-bonus points though, because I had to google it to make sure I was right, and narrow it down from the broad category my brain pointed to. (Really - VT?) 

 

Anyway... 


Edited by fishers64, Jun 05 2013 - 06:22 PM.

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#442 Offline DuplexBeGreat

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 06:28 PM

1.- The planet was created naturally

We don't know that for sure, right? I thought there was actually more evidence (or maybe a direct statement) saying that the GTGBs had a hand in making (or modifying) the planet.
Well, we don't know that they even exist. It's more along the lines of IF they existed, then they probably made it.

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#443 Offline Kopekemaster

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 07:01 PM

 

1.- The planet was created naturally

We don't know that for sure, right? I thought there was actually more evidence (or maybe a direct statement) saying that the GTGBs had a hand in making (or modifying) the planet.
Well, we don't know that they even exist. It's more along the lines of IF they existed, then they probably made it.

 

Of course, we don't know either that it was "created naturally" (whatever that might mean).

 

I certainly hope that the GTGBs exist. In that case I might be able to bring my fan-continuation of Bionicle back to life, so to speak.


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#444 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 07:18 PM

 

1.- The planet was created naturally

We don't know that for sure, right? I thought there was actually more evidence (or maybe a direct statement) saying that the GTGBs had a hand in making (or modifying) the planet.
Well, we don't know that they even exist. It's more along the lines of IF they existed, then they probably made it.

What we know is that beings responsible for making the Bionicle planet do exist, but like I said in the earlier post on this, it's unclear whether this might have meant the Element Lords being responsible for the Shattering (which made Aqua Magna, the only planet known at the time Greg said that). And we also know that he said there's no other identifying details known; "Greater than Great Beings" is a fan nickname used merely for lack of a better idea for a nickname when it was said.

 

And no, we definitely do not know the planet was naturally made (or I don't :P always possible I missed a quote though). We know energized protodermis is considered "natural" but what the means exactly and how it related to the megaplanet is unknown at this time.

 

Translation: it's a good question only Greg can answer. :lol:


Edited by bonesiii, Jun 05 2013 - 07:20 PM.

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#445 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 09:18 PM

The other thing is that Teridax was obsessed with the Plan, and you pointed out that the Dark Hunters weren't a threat to the Plan until they came close to learning it. Then they attacked the fortress. But they didn't sent their entire force after the fortress because that would have clued the Dark Hunters in that were sitting on something valuable.(Zaktan figured it out anyway...)

 

They didn't need to take the fortress containing the Plan, they just needed to destroy it before any Hunter discovered it. But then again, that's not Teridax's style--it's Icarax's. Teridax would just send a small force to avoid tipping them off, while Icarax would have smashed it before they could find out. I suppose we could just argue that Teridax doesn't care for beating his opponents with raw power if he can manipulate them instead.

And even if the Dark Hunters found out the Plan, where would they have gone with it? The Toa weren't a force to be reckoned with, and they didn't know the OoMN existed. They could have tried to stop it, but then the Brotherhood would have crushed them easily, as you said. But they didn't want to waste resources doing it unless they had to (what if the Plan failed, horror of horrors?). And a war was something for the Brotherhood to amuse themselves picking at while Teridax was off executing the Plan.If the Brotherhood could have wiped out the Dark Hunters at any time, they could have stopped them from delivering information to a few novice Toa on the outskirts of the universe (and would those Toa even believe a message from the Dark Hunters anyway?). And a war is a very good context for that, to make sure nobody doubts your reasons for destroying the place.

Ha ha, that's rich. The Dark Hunters warning the Toa? No, TSO would simply have sent Hunters to kill one of the Toa Nuva, botching Teridax's plan. Shazam, problem solved. And who says the Brotherhood would have found out that the Dark Hunters knew in time? Apparently, they weren't concerned enough to destroy the fortress, or even to find any Hunter who may have discovered the plan, since obviously Zaktan got away with it.

 

And who knows - maybe the Brotherhood actually wanted some DHs to know the Plan. Zaktan proved to be very useful. :P Edit: That might have been the point, even. "Here, we have this fantabulous plan to take over the universe. Can you get over this petty disagreement and join us?" They might have have been holding out in case that was possible. On the other hand, they weren't sure that the Dark Hunters would go for it...

The Makuta by their very nature consider themselves to be superior to others. They don't need alliances, and certainly not if their allies consider themselves on equal footing with the Brotherhood.

 

And of course you also mention all those other reasons why Teridax would want vengeance on the Shadowed One for the events in Time Trap. Even more reason to find out why the Brotherhood didn't finish off that war.


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#446 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 10:00 PM

Sorry, missed your post, fishers.

 

disagree slightly that TSO's conflict was "a silly war [color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;]over such a trivial thing as the death of two incompetent members[/color]". :P There was the issue with the Avohkii guards, and something minor called "I wanted the Mask of Time and you kept it from me and it ended up with a Toa" and "Dude, you are trying to destroy the universe, thus leaving me with nothing to steal or amuse myself doing anymore."

Well, I'm sure there were other issues before too, but it seems to me that since TSO declared war in response to that action, that was the only thing that pushed it over the line. The other things only came later and could be argued "but we only did that because you started that silly war over our cleaning up your membership ranks of the filth for you" and the like. :P (Though obviously worded a tad more diplomatically.)

 

And I actually caught the reference. :P I get zero mega-bonus points though, because I had to google it to make sure I was right, and narrow it down from the broad category my brain pointed to. (Really - VT?)

I loled! Yes. (To go with the uberawesome Stuff Mart Rap of course.) 

I suppose we could just argue that Teridax doesn't care for beating his opponents with raw power if he can manipulate them instead.

Yeah, that seems to be the lesson we're supposed to draw, from this and a lot of things. There's undoubtedly some overconfidence; Greg said for example he thought the Toa Mata were imposters in 2001. But of course, in light of hindsight we could also say that Makuta's next thought might have been, "Hm... how can I use these imposters too?" instead of just "I don't need to worry about them." An intensely manipulative strategy (as befits his personality) can be easily mistaken for overconfidence; hard to tell sometimes which is which even with hindsight, heh.

 

Ha ha, that's rich. The Dark Hunters warning the Toa? No, TSO would simply have sent Hunters to kill one of the Toa Nuva, botching Teridax's plan. Shazam, problem solved.

Gotta agree. :P

 

And who says the Brotherhood would have found out that the Dark Hunters knew in time?

This is undoubtedly one of the reasons Makuta was "guarding the gate", and Makuta have mindreading abilities. Of course, you could argue the DH could have sent someone that was mindshielded, but they would still apparently have had to go through the gate, which he was guarding, etc. It's slightly possible but he must have seen it as worth the risk.

 

There's also the possibility that the Brotherhood was actively spying telepathically to ensure this wasn't done, though that seems unlikely since they had Roodaka be a double agent and all that jazz.

 

Quote

And who knows - maybe the Brotherhood actually wanted some DHs to know the Plan. Zaktan proved to be very useful. :P Edit: That might have been the point, even. "Here, we have this fantabulous plan to take over the universe. Can you get over this petty disagreement and join us?" They might have have been holding out in case that was possible. On the other hand, they weren't sure that the Dark Hunters would go for it...

The Makuta by their very nature consider themselves to be superior to others. They don't need alliances, and certainly not if their allies consider themselves on equal footing with the Brotherhood.

I think fishers' point stands on this one, at least since she made it just a possibility. I think there were multiple factors and contingencies and hopes, so it's very possible that part of Teridax's thinking in not making that more heavily guarded, etc. was that Zaktan (or maybe other DHs) might bring the DH around.

 

By the way, let's note that Ancient himself was an Order member and approached TSO to offer the alternative option once Terry took over. What would TSO have done without that interference (which Teridax likely could not factor)? This was Ancient himself speaking, too, so if he had nothing to do with the Order or didn't get involved and a random other Order Agent said it, what would TSO have done to that instead?

 

I gotta say it seems likely he might have joined Terry. (Of course, maybe then the Order would have had him killed, but yeah. :P) So it's possible that actually DID exactly what it was supposed to as far as Teridax could have controlled it, but the Order messed it up.


Edited by bonesiii, Jun 05 2013 - 10:20 PM.

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#447 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 11:10 PM

And even if the Dark Hunters found out the Plan, where would they have gone with it? The Toa weren't a force to be reckoned with, and they didn't know the OoMN existed. They could have tried to stop it, but then the Brotherhood would have crushed them easily, as you said. But they didn't want to waste resources doing it unless they had to (what if the Plan failed, horror of horrors?). And a war was something for the Brotherhood to amuse themselves picking at while Teridax was off executing the Plan.If the Brotherhood could have wiped out the Dark Hunters at any time, they could have stopped them from delivering information to a few novice Toa on the outskirts of the universe (and would those Toa even believe a message from the Dark Hunters anyway?). And a war is a very good context for that, to make sure nobody doubts your reasons for destroying the place.

Ha ha, that's rich. The Dark Hunters warning the Toa? No, TSO would simply have sent Hunters to kill one of the Toa Nuva, botching Teridax's plan. Shazam, problem solved. And who says the Brotherhood would have found out that the Dark Hunters knew in time? Apparently, they weren't concerned enough to destroy the fortress, or even to find any Hunter who may have discovered the plan, since obviously Zaktan got away with it.

Zaktan tried to kill the Nuva, and that worked out real well. :P I don't think they would have gotten away with that. You're right that they probably would have tried, though, before telling them about the Plan.  Besides, if one of the Nuva got killed the Brotherhood could use the Ignika. 

And who knows - maybe the Brotherhood actually wanted some DHs to know the Plan. Zaktan proved to be very useful. :P Edit: That might have been the point, even. "Here, we have this fantabulous plan to take over the universe. Can you get over this petty disagreement and join us?" They might have have been holding out in case that was possible. On the other hand, they weren't sure that the Dark Hunters would go for it...

The Makuta by their very nature consider themselves to be superior to others. They don't need alliances, and certainly not if their allies consider themselves on equal footing with the Brotherhood. And of course you also mention all those other reasons why Teridax would want vengeance on the Shadowed One for the events in Time Trap. Even more reason to find out why the Brotherhood didn't finish off that war.

I'm not trying to stop you from asking questions. I looked through the old Greg answers to find the answer to your question, and I didn't find it directly, so I guess I should have stopped there. I thought it was clear from the old Legacy of Evil that the Brotherhood was stretched thin dealing with other stuff, like the aftermath of the Cataclysm and a bunch of Matoran and Toa rebellions. (It's a shame I don't have the book right now, as it was an exact quote - "The Brotherhood was dealing with the aftereffects of a bioquake that had rocked the universe...under this backdrop, the Dark Hunter's campaign of [thievery, sabotage, etc] had met with success.")I agree that the Makuta consider themselves superior. But they may consider themselves so superior as to be above wiping out a group of petty thieves that had unwisely declared war on them. And Teridax, aside from the appearance in Time Trap, didn't fight in this war, so I'm bit confused of why his motives for revenge (did he even have any? I don't recall any that I said) would apply. He was too tied up in his plan to get involved in a war like this until he got in power, and then all he did was eliminate TSO as a threat. It's not like he cared.

 

* * *

 

Sorry, missed your post, fishers.

That's what I get from appearing out of nowhere. A bad habit of mine I need to knock. :lol:

 

disagree slightly that TSO's conflict was "a silly war [color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;]over such a trivial thing as the death of two incompetent members[/color]". :P There was the issue with the Avohkii guards, and something minor called "I wanted the Mask of Time and you kept it from me and it ended up with a Toa" and "Dude, you are trying to destroy the universe, thus leaving me with nothing to steal or amuse myself doing anymore."

Well, I'm sure there were other issues before too, but it seems to me that since TSO declared war in response to that action, that was the only thing that pushed it over the line. The other things only came later and could be argued "but we only did that because you started that silly war over our cleaning up your membership ranks of the filth for you" and the like. :P (Though obviously worded a tad more diplomatically.)

The war only started after the events of Time Trap, when Teridax was revealed to be the murderer of Nidhiki and Krekka. But the whole Vahi business happened at about the same time, so I'm not ruling it out as a possible factor. And then you go home, and mildly ticked off over one thing, you generally drag up all your other reasons to be mad, which keeps you going long after the first irritation, which may be minor, has passed. 

 

In other words, I thought TSO and Co. went the Metru Nui to get the Vahi, with the murder investigation as a side goal, and then got irritated by the person responsible for both the murder and the loss - Teridax. 


Edited by fishers64, Jun 06 2013 - 08:42 AM.

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#448 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 05 2013 - 11:56 PM

Well I always assumed it was the whole "we protect our own" rule that was the main problem (that was a big part of the founding of the DHs after all). Teridax himself commissioned the Vahi in the first place, so if TSO wasn't aware of that he could have simply pointed that out, and if they were allies this distinction wouldn't seem to matter much; either could use it for the other. So I doubt the Vahi was a serious motive for the war.

 

But they may consider themselves so superior as to be above wiping out a group of petty thieves that had unwisely declared war on them.

Exactly. I would say we can be sure they did. Only someone who does not really consider themselves inherently far superior would bother to wipe them out. Unless they loved killing for killing's sake, but we've already established that Teridax does not. Gorast, Icarax, etc. sure -- so if they were in charge they very well might have done that. But for someone like Teridax, to do that would be to say "I actually fear that I'm in danger from you".

 

Doesn't hurt to ask anyways, just sayin' that if Greg doesn't comment anew on this I think we know plenty from what's established to be confident that this is the basic answer. :)


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#449 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 11:17 AM

Zaktan tried to kill the Nuva, and that worked out real well. :P I don't think they would have gotten away with that. You're right that they probably would have tried, though, before telling them about the Plan.

Zaktan's primary focus was not killing the Nuva anyway. And at the time, I believe he was being influenced by Teridax anyway, from all that time Zaktan spent at the Antidermis vat, and Teridax didn't want the Toa Nuva dead, for now-obvious reasons.

 

Besides, if one of the Nuva got killed the Brotherhood could use the Ignika.

No one can use the Ignika except those destined, such as Matoro or that Toa from Jovan's team, and if they even touch it without being destined, they're cursed. Of course, whether the Dark Hunters knew that or not is questionable. Even Hydraxon, a member of the Order of Mata Nui, did not know the power the mask had, since he was foolish enough to try and destroy it. (Thank goodness he failed)

 

I thought it was clear from the old Legacy of Evil that the Brotherhood was stretched thin dealing with other stuff, like the aftermath of the Cataclysm and a bunch of Matoran and Toa rebellions. (It's a shame I don't have the book right now, as it was an exact quote - "The Brotherhood was dealing with the aftereffects of a bioquake that had rocked the universe...under this backdrop, the Dark Hunter's campaign of [thievery, sabotage, etc] had met with success.")

 

At that time, perhaps. The Great Cataclysm certainly caused a lot of damage,  but I doubt the Makuta would be so concerned about it that it would have held them up from ending a war for 1000 years. Besides that, the Brotherhood knew about the Staff of Artahka, and how it could be used to repair the universe anyway. The Brotherhood probably spent most of the 1000 years focusing on the Plan and the war with the Dark Hunters.

 

Teridax himself commissioned the Vahi in the first place, so if TSO wasn't aware of that he could have simply pointed that out, and if they were allies this distinction wouldn't seem to matter much; either could use it for the other. So I doubt the Vahi was a serious motive for the war.

I would agree, except that this is the Vahi. A mask equal in power to the Ignika or the Mask of Creation, and that's not something you share--at least not if you're Teridax or the Shadowed One.

 

Only someone who does not really consider themselves inherently far superior would bother to wipe them out. Unless they loved killing for killing's sake, but we've already established that Teridax does not. Gorast, Icarax, etc. sure -- so if they were in charge they very well might have done that. But for someone like Teridax, to do that would be to say "I actually fear that I'm in danger from you".

Teridax has put forth the effort to destroy annoyances before. He attempted to kill Brutaka in Into the Darkness after Brutaka prevented him from using the Staff of Artahka on the decoy Nui Stone fragments. Teridax was unable to do so, however, since he needed to ensure that his grander scheme was not foiled, and taking the time to kill Brutaka would jeopardize his Plan. While it's difficult to say how the Dark Hunters as a whole could match up to the Brotherhood, considering the war only ended once Teridax took over Mata Nui's body, the Shadowed One had demonstrated that he was a definite threat to Teridax in Time Trap. Does Teridax consider him an equal? No. But it would be an Icarax-level of foolishness to think that the Shadowed One was not a threat. Teridax is proud, but extremely cautious. Backup plans for breakfast, and all that.


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#450 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 11:30 AM

A few minor points -- I should have mentioned in the previous post that the Piraka actually had the Nuva captured. If Zaktan had wanted to kill them then he could have, easily. So not sure it's accurate to say that he tried (maybe later? I forget).

 

What I meant about the Vahi was that Teridax could point out those two facts to TSO to justify his claiming the Vahi for himself, not that he would actually be okay with TSO having a Legendary Mask. :) "Since it really doesn't matter who has it if we're allies, I might as well have it since I commissioned it" -- and he would say it while hinting but not saying "and if you whine about this I don't care but I don't want to say that out loud".

 

Re: Brutaka -- well, Brutaka strikes me as the kind of side person that Teridax might have actually deemed definitely more a threat than a possible pawn. Although I would think the main threat would be his mask. (And his antidermis-related qualities but no idea if Terry knew that about his species.) I'm not saying he would never want to off some people strategically. I do question that he ever literally wanted to off someone just because they annoyed him. :P


Edited by bonesiii, Jun 06 2013 - 11:30 AM.

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#451 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 11:43 AM

Teridax could use those points against the Shadowed One, but I doubt that the Shadowed One would have accepted it. Particularly since Voporak was on his side.

 

"You cost me the Nui Stone," growled Makuta, hurling a burst of shadow energy at Brutaka. "You have become... an annoyance."

Battle ensues. In this case, it seems that Teridax did want to be rid of him because of the annoyance factor.


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#452 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 11:47 AM

A few minor points -- I should have mentioned in the previous post that the Piraka actually had the Nuva captured. If Zaktan had wanted to kill them then he could have, easily. So not sure it's accurate to say that he tried (maybe later? I forget).

Zaktan tried to kill the Nuva. He sent the other Piraka to hurl them into Mount Valmai while they were unconscious. The only reason they didn't is because it was about to erupt and the Piraka just dumped them on the side and ran for it. At that moment the Nuva started to recover.

 

The second time they were captured, he left it to Brutaka to do what he wanted with them. Technically not under Zaktan's power.


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#453 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 11:48 AM

A few minor points -- I should have mentioned in the previous post that the Piraka actually had the Nuva captured. If Zaktan had wanted to kill them then he could have, easily. So not sure it's accurate to say that he tried (maybe later? I forget).

Zaktan tried to kill the Nuva. He sent the other Piraka to hurl them into Mount Valmai while they were unconscious. The only reason they didn't is because it was about to erupt and the Piraka just dumped them on the side and ran for it. At that moment the Nuva started to recover.

 

The second time they were captured, he left it to Brutaka to do what he wanted with them. Technically not under Zaktan's power.

And then there's also that part about Teridax influencing Zaktan.


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#454 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 01:18 PM

Teridax could use those points against the Shadowed One, but I doubt that the Shadowed One would have accepted it. Particularly since Voporak was on his side.

 

"You cost me the Nui Stone," growled Makuta, hurling a burst of shadow energy at Brutaka. "You have become... an annoyance."

Battle ensues. In this case, it seems that Teridax did want to be rid of him because of the annoyance factor.

Again keep in mind I'm talking about without Order interference, when Terry took over, and hurt feelings on the really old stuff have grown dull. "An offer you can't refuse" kind of thing.

 

And actually that "..." there and just the fact that Liar is speaking makes me think I'm probably right that he didn't think Brutaka was merely an annoyance but a potential threat. Remember Greg's caution after Makuta's "I am Nothing" statement which many fans bought hooklinesinker that we should remember Makuta lies strategically as much as anything else he does. Some fans actually got angry when LEGO did not change Makuta into literally nothing, missing that LEGO never intended that, and mistook LEGO for actually changing what Makuta was later, over this basic mistaken assumption that Makuta is honest.

 

I would only buy it if we were given it as one of the rare glimpses into his actual thoughts or Greg confirmed it. Sounds like he meant "you're a threat, but praising you might boost your morale and help you escape this offing, so instead I'll throw you off with a random insult". And of course I'm sure he meant to imply he had other ways to get what he wanted and keep it, etc.

 

A few minor points -- I should have mentioned in the previous post that the Piraka actually had the Nuva captured. If Zaktan had wanted to kill them then he could have, easily. So not sure it's accurate to say that he tried (maybe later? I forget).

Zaktan tried to kill the Nuva. He sent the other Piraka to hurl them into Mount Valmai while they were unconscious. The only reason they didn't is because it was about to erupt and the Piraka just dumped them on the side and ran for it. At that moment the Nuva started to recover.

 

The second time they were captured, he left it to Brutaka to do what he wanted with them. Technically not under Zaktan's power.

Right, thought there was something like that. However, this was not exactly a serious attempt to kill, because he did have them totally helpless and under his imprisonment prior to this. If he really wanted them urgently dead he could have decapitated them or something (okay, LEGO wouldn't allow that; probably they'd use powers to kill them, but you see the point).


Edited by bonesiii, Jun 06 2013 - 01:20 PM.

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#455 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 05:15 PM

TSO probably considers himself to be just as much a threat as Teridax, though. He doesn't feel threatened by Teridax for the same reason Teridax doesn't feel threatened by TSO.

 

And actually that "..." there and just the fact that Liar is speaking makes me think I'm probably right that he didn't think Brutaka was merely an annoyance but a potential threat. Remember Greg's caution after Makuta's "I am Nothing" statement which many fans bought hooklinesinker that we should remember Makuta lies strategically as much as anything else he does. Some fans actually got angry when LEGO did not change Makuta into literally nothing, missing that LEGO never intended that, and mistook LEGO for actually changing what Makuta was later, over this basic mistaken assumption that Makuta is honest.

I wasn't around back then, but when I first heard the quote, I automatically thought the "I am Nothing." statement was just your usual evil villain speech stuff. This is a somewhat different situation in that he wasn't really trying to intimidate Brutaka. Sure, he's probably not giving Brutaka the credit he deserves, but I highly doubt he would not have thought the same of TSO, whose eye beams can actually cause a lot of damage rapidly even to protosteel Makuta armor. (Also, I wonder if Brutaka's exposure to Teridax's antidermis had any effect on Teridax. No real evidence that I can think of, but maybe I'll do some digging to see.)

 

Anyhow, new question idea. I don't know if it has ever been stated before or not, but I can't seem to find the info. How did the Bara Magna villages decide the location and type of fights in the Glatorian system? Does the challenger get to decide whether it's Glatorian v. Glatorian, Vehicle v. Vehicle, Glatorian+Agori v. Glatorian+Agori? Who gets "home field advantage", so to speak?

 

EDIT: Wouldn't Zaktan's order to dump the Nuva in a volcano just be the usual fictional villain overkill? I don't think there was any in-story reason given for the Toa Nuva to be dumped in that manner, which indicates that the only real reason was that the Toa Nuva needed to escape the Piraka, and for that, "why don'tcha just shoot him" wouldn't have worked for the story.


Edited by LewaLew, Jun 06 2013 - 05:18 PM.

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#456 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 08:20 PM

Interesting question... I also suspect it'd be a compromise of sorts. Challenger picks the battle type, but it's automatically fought on the arena of the ones being challenged... or something like that. Maybe the other way around. Or perhaps there was no set system for that and it was negotiated for each match individually. :notsure:

 

Makuta lies strategically as much as anything else he does.

 

Calling it now, Teridax for 12th Doctor


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#457 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 09:33 PM

Interesting question... I also suspect it'd be a compromise of sorts. Challenger picks the battle type, but it's automatically fought on the arena of the ones being challenged... or something like that. Maybe the other way around. Or perhaps there was no set system for that and it was negotiated for each match individually. :notsure:

 

Makuta lies strategically as much as anything else he does.

 

Calling it now, Teridax for 12th Doctor

Maybe they flip coins like in football. Maybe the type Berix found with the map of the Maze on the back.


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#458 Offline Tecnokua Mudkip apprentice

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 09:50 PM

In the last set wave of bionicle Tahu is transformed back to a toa mata (i forget when this was revealed but it was some story line thing) but Takanuva was also the same size as Tahu was that just because of the sets or would takanuva look something similar to a toa mata?


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#459 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 06 2013 - 09:54 PM

In the last set wave of bionicle Tahu is transformed back to a toa mata (i forget when this was revealed but it was some story line thing) but Takanuva was also the same size as Tahu was that just because of the sets or would takanuva look something similar to a toa mata?

The only time Takanuva ever wasn't the same size as Tahu was when he was Takua, and when he was in Karda Nui, which caused him to be bigger, just like how the Av-Matoran are taller in Karda Nui.


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#460 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 08:05 AM

In the last set wave of bionicle Tahu is transformed back to a toa mata (i forget when this was revealed but it was some story line thing) but Takanuva was also the same size as Tahu was that just because of the sets or would takanuva look something similar to a toa mata?

The only time Takanuva ever wasn't the same size as Tahu was when he was Takua, and when he was in Karda Nui, which caused him to be bigger, just like how the Av-Matoran are taller in Karda Nui.

So basically, yes, Takanuva being the same size as Tahu in the Stars wave was just because of the sets.


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#461 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 10:37 AM

 

In the last set wave of bionicle Tahu is transformed back to a toa mata (i forget when this was revealed but it was some story line thing) but Takanuva was also the same size as Tahu was that just because of the sets or would takanuva look something similar to a toa mata?

The only time Takanuva ever wasn't the same size as Tahu was when he was Takua, and when he was in Karda Nui, which caused him to be bigger, just like how the Av-Matoran are taller in Karda Nui.

So basically, yes, Takanuva being the same size as Tahu in the Stars wave was just because of the sets.

No, in story, he was the same size as Tahu on Bara Magna. The only reasons his colors were white and gray was so he wouldn't stand out as an important target. (Though really, the Avohkii on his face, silver or otherwise, should have been a big tipoff) Out of story, he was made white and gray/silver because they needed a white Star, and Takanuva had that 2008 version they could base him off of.


Edited by LewaLew, Jun 07 2013 - 10:38 AM.

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#462 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 12:06 PM

Oh, okay. When you said "the only time he wasn't the same size as Tahu" I thought you were referring to Tahu Nuva, not his default Mata form.


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#463 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 12:24 PM

Oh, okay. When you said "the only time he wasn't the same size as Tahu" I thought you were referring to Tahu Nuva, not his default Mata form.

Yeah, Technokua was asking why Stars Takanuva was the same size as Stars Tahu. I think he thought that Stars Takanuva was supposed to be the same as Twilight Takanuva from '08.


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#464 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 01:29 PM

Well twilight form aside, I always thought that he was the size of a Toa Nuva, not a Mata (because there is a slight size difference there)... which is it on Bara Magna, though?


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#465 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 03:19 PM

Well twilight form aside, I always thought that he was the size of a Toa Nuva, not a Mata (because there is a slight size difference there)... which is it on Bara Magna, though?

Setwise, I don't know. I never owned a Toa Nuva nor a Toa Mata, but judging from their builds, they're probably about the same. Storywise, however, I believe Toa Mata, Toa Nuva, and Takanuva are all the same size.


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#466 Offline Dorek

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 05:44 PM

Within a given line, the size differentials are accurate, but this doesn't always hold up when compared on a year to year basis. Realistically, yes, Takanuva should have been shaped and sized differently, but it doesn't matter much.
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#467 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 05:47 PM

Within a given line, the size differentials are accurate, but this doesn't always hold up when compared on a year to year basis. Realistically, yes, Takanuva should have been shaped and sized differently, but it doesn't matter much.

Yes. If I remember correctly, the Av-Matoran build, which was used for small sets,actually is almost as tall as the original Toa Mata. But of course, I don't own any Toa Mata sets, except for a beheaded Gali that is missing most of its pieces.


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#468 Offline Toa K

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Posted Jun 07 2013 - 10:46 PM

Nuva are one brick taller than a Mata. Not a big difference. And you should get some original Toa sets. They are amazing.


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#469 Offline Mikhail

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Posted Jun 06 2014 - 12:13 PM

I've got a question: Is it possible that there are any other races in the Matoran Universe,besides those who we have seen untill this point. If yes,where they created by the GB ?


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#470 Offline Makuta Miras

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Posted Jun 06 2014 - 12:46 PM

Question time- Has the Order of Mata Nui found Mazeka and Alternate Teridax yet, and if so, have they recruited Alternate Teridax?


Edited by Makuta Miras, Jun 06 2014 - 12:47 PM.

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#471 Online -Windrider-

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Posted Jun 06 2014 - 01:31 PM

Please don't post in topics that have not received a post in over 60 days!

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