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Canon Discrepancy in Journey's End?


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#1 Online Kahi

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Posted Nov 09 2012 - 09:42 PM

Okay, so, I was looking through the story Journey's End and came across this passage. Its right before the battle starts, while Tahu is still Tahu Nuva and he and Takanuva are just coming out of the Mata Nui robot:

Gresh was torn for an instant. Did he go help his friends, or take advantage of the opening toget inside the Makuta robot? Then he realized there was really no choice at all. Kiina and Ackarwould put saving the world first. He had an opportunity to do that, and he wasn’t going towaste it.He started for the open hatch, then stopped short. More figures were coming out of it. Greshbraced for a fight.The first two beings to step into the sunlight were a red-armored warrior and another in whiteand gold. Gresh greeted them with a cyclone that slammed them against the metal. Before hecould follow up, a blast of light blinded him. He staggered, trying to clear his vision before theattack he knew was coming.“Who is he?” one voice said. “He doesn’t look like one of Makuta’s creations.”“Maybe Makuta had agents here already,” another voice replied. “Take him out. We don’t havetime to waste.”“Wait!” shouted Gresh. “I’m no friend of Makuta’s! I thought you were!”The glare was starting to fade now and Gresh could make out the shapes of dozens of warriorsstreaming from the hatch. One came up and grabbed his arm.“So those are your pals out there, fighting the Rahkshi?” asked Tahu.“Yes,” Gresh answered. “But what are Rahkshi?”“We call them the ‘sons of Makuta,’ where I come from,” said Tahu. “They’re killers … and yourfriends are in more trouble than they know.”He turned back to the warriors, large and small, who stood behind him. “Let’s go. These peopleneed our help.” Tahu looked over his shoulder at Gresh. “You coming?”“I’m going inside,” the Glatorian replied. “I have to stop this Makuta.”The white and gold warrior, Takanuva, laughed. There wasn’t any humor in the sound. “Whatdo you think we’ve been trying to do for months? You can’t do any good in there – you’ll justget yourself killed. So stay here, or fight with us.”“Then I’m with you,” answered Gresh, already racing toward the battle.“Let’s do this.”

Okay, so, two characters meet, nearly fight, snappy banter and then into battle. Its a normal type of passage from a BIONICLE book. Why, then, is this always critical "Kahi" character claiming there to be some sort of discrepancy?Well, it was hard to miss at first. I missed it the first time, actually, because it's really kind of simple.They're talking.The Agori and Matoran languages are different. As we know, at the end of the battle, after Teridax had been defeated, Mata Nui used the Mask of Life to enable the Matoran and Agori to communicate. In fact, there was a little deal about Lewa not being able to talk with the Agori due to him not being there when Mata Nui did that and was sort of floating in space.But here Tahu and Takanuva are, talking to Gresh like nobody's business, before Mata Nui does anything of the sort. The Mask of Life hasn't come onto the scene yet, as his first interaction with Tahu was to turn him back into Tahu Mata. They talk to each other literally the moment they are able to see each other, so there's no time for anything to happen.How is this possible? Why can they do this? Is this more bad plot planning?Discuss.

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#2 Offline Magnetic Vorahk

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Posted Nov 09 2012 - 11:05 PM

Yeah, I noticed that when I was reading it. There's probably some explanation for it, but I don't know.
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#3 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 09 2012 - 11:26 PM

The Agori and Matoran languages are different. As we know, at the end of the battle, after Teridax had been defeated, Mata Nui used the Mask of Life to enable the Matoran and Agori to communicate. In fact, there was a little deal about Lewa not being able to talk with the Agori due to him not being there when Mata Nui did that and was sort of floating in space.

Do we really know this? I think the revelation that Mata Nui fixed the MU inhabitants to understand Agori was a Greg answer, and the time of the language fix wasn't specified. (I reread the section where Mata Nui restored the planet at the end of Journey's End, and did not find Mata Nui sending language data. Instead, I found more instances of Matoran/Agori communication. :shrugs:)And the reason Lewa missed the language knowledge was because he was in the insane GB's fortress and shielded from outside communication.

But here Tahu and Takanuva are, talking to Gresh like nobody's business, before Mata Nui does anything of the sort. The Mask of Life hasn't come onto the scene yet, as his first interaction with Tahu was to turn him back into Tahu Mata. They talk to each other literally the moment they are able to see each other, so there's no time for anything to happen.

I think it is possible that Mata Nui sent the data to the MUian earilier, while Makuta was still out in space or when he was arguing with Makuta before the unkeashing if the invasion army. It just wasn't mentioned in the book anywhere.

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#4 Offline Makuta_of_Oz

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Posted Nov 10 2012 - 01:35 AM

Yeah I think I heard somewhere else that either Mata Nui or Teridax gave the MU inhabitants the ability to speak Agori.
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#5 Offline Podu

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Posted Nov 10 2012 - 03:45 AM

Have you thought of it the other way round? Perhaps Mata Nui thought that such situations would happen and taught Gresh and the other guys Matoran?
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#6 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Nov 10 2012 - 04:33 AM

Yeah I think I heard somewhere else that either Mata Nui or Teridax gave the MU inhabitants the ability to speak Agori.

I think Mata Nui sended the langue data to the MU before the battle started

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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 10 2012 - 07:41 AM

Don't forget that Matoran was made out of Agori words. Assuming the translation thing wasn't done already (though I don't see why Mata Nui would wait -- why leave them confused during the most important event of their lives only to enable understanding later?), it would be like people of two dialects talking to each other. Some of the words and the grammar would be weird but they'd be able to understand the basics.
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#8 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Nov 10 2012 - 07:44 AM

Don't forget that Matoran was made out of Agori words. Assuming the translation thing wasn't done already (though I don't see why Mata Nui would wait -- why leave them confused during the most important event of their lives only to enable understanding later?), it would be like people of two dialects talking to each other. Some of the words and the grammar would be weird but they'd be able to understand the basics.

Indeed and maybe lewa wasn't able to understand the agori because they talked a bota-magna dialect

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#9 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Nov 10 2012 - 09:12 AM

There are two explanations for this as I see it. The first is that Greg confirmed that Mata Nui sent the Agori language data (which was already stored in his systems, as indicated by his talking with Bara Manga natives earlier) to the MU inhabitants at some point before that chapter.The second is simple: it's confirmed that Matoran is made of Agori words, just as the Matoran themslves are based on Agori. It's possible that the languages were close enough that Tahu and Taka could understand Gresh (though technically this would make Matoran a seperate dialect of Agori, but I digress).
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#10 Online Kahi

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Posted Nov 11 2012 - 02:26 AM

If I'm not mistaken, Mata Nui granted everyone this ability to communicate after the battle was over. There really is no set time for him to do it elsewhere, since by the time the robot touches down on Bara Magna, he's already in a robot of his own. I also don't believe he would be able to send this ability to them from Bara Magna. First, the outershell seems to serve as a sort of boundary against the Mask, as evidenced by the Mask turning back from its silver to near black state back to gold once it was outside of the robot. Additionally, if he could manipulate them from outside, why not just evolve them into more powerful forms, or at least give as many people as he could enhanced abilities? You'd think that would be of more importance than mere communication, as powerful as the latter could be.In terms of the Agori just happening to understand the Matoran, I also think that's mostly unlikely. I've always thought that the Matoran communicated in a more electronic beeps and whistle kind of way. Even if they didn't, the barrier would be less like a different dialect and more like, well, people with little to no programming experience looking at a bunch of complicated code. Even though the code is based on the English language, it is still complicated with its own measures and people not skilled in that language can find it impossible to understand.
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#11 Offline Parugi

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Posted Nov 11 2012 - 03:18 AM

I could be wrong, but I remember reading someone's reply from Greg a while back that said, essentially, that one of the Great Spirit robots had some sort of mass-translator that was in use during the battle; Mata Nui simply made the effect permanent when he restored the planet.As I don't have the actual quote, make of this what you will. It does seem like a fairly reasonable explanation to me, though.

Edited by Parugi, Nov 11 2012 - 03:28 AM.

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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 11 2012 - 10:40 AM

In terms of the Agori just happening to understand the Matoran, I also think that's mostly unlikely. I've always thought that the Matoran communicated in a more electronic beeps and whistle kind of way.

That's R2-D2. :P The Matoran speak just like Agori. Just a slightly different language since it's a programming language made out of the same vocabulary and probably some of the same basic grammar. Likely it would seem very formal to the Agori but be relatively easily understood. As for "unlikely", if you're correct that the translation power came afterwards (but again, why?), this is the wrong approach to theororizing; they are shown communicating and understanding in canon story, therefore it is not only likely but confirmed that somehow or another they could understand each other enough to get the message across. :)

First, the outershell seems to serve as a sort of boundary against the Mask, as evidenced by the Mask turning back from its silver to near black state back to gold once it was outside of the robot.

It was more a matter of physical distance, hence why Makuta had to shoot it into space rather than just onto Aqua Magna. And that obviously wouldn't prevent it from being used the moment they came outside.

Additionally, if he could manipulate them from outside, why not just evolve them into more powerful forms, or at least give as many people as he could enhanced abilities? You'd think that would be of more importance than mere communication, as powerful as the latter could be.

Granting them the ability to understand a different language would take far, far less energy than physically transforming them or granting powers. It seems to be portrayed as basically something that came at virtually no cost, so there was no reason not to do it.

Even if they didn't, the barrier would be less like a different dialect and more like, well, people with little to no programming experience looking at a bunch of complicated code.

Depending on the type of code you mean, this doesn't work, because they're not using shortened symbols and other obscure coding "terms" but rather normal Agori words. So instead of things like href, a, b, <> [], they're using things like if, then, else, who, is, he, etc. :) All the words you see in the quote you put up there are basic words that would be common across the languages. Only if they got into their own specialized technical terms like Kanohi, Pakari, or unrecognized names basically would there be a problem; it's for that stuff basically that the translation power was used.For example, notice the first name they use is Makuta, and Gresh recognizes that name since Mata Nui had told them about him. But when they use an unfamiliar word, Rahkshi, he has to ask what that means. And Tahu goes on to define it in terms Gresh is familiar with.

Edited by bonesiii, Nov 11 2012 - 10:51 AM.

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#13 Offline LockmanCapulet

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Posted Nov 13 2012 - 09:22 PM

Here's a theory that has absolutely no story backup: maybe it was GRESH who learned MATORAN when the Ignika gave him elemental powers? Food for thought.
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#14 Offline GallifreyanOrigin

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 01:16 AM

Here's a theory that has absolutely no story backup: maybe it was GRESH who learned MATORAN when the Ignika gave him elemental powers? Food for thought.

Hm......I like it.My friend, you've just been headcanoned.

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#15 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 07:00 AM

Here's a theory that has absolutely no story backup: maybe it was GRESH who learned MATORAN when the Ignika gave him elemental powers? Food for thought.

Indeed maybe a side effect of elemental powers.

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#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 05:07 PM

Here's a theory that has absolutely no story backup: maybe it was GRESH who learned MATORAN when the Ignika gave him elemental powers? Food for thought.

Possible, but not likely. Mata Nui didn't know that he was going to need to communicate with the Matoran at that point. From his own words, it would appear that Mata Nui thought he would find a way back into his universe and take down Makuta from within.

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#17 Offline LockmanCapulet

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 10:07 PM

Here's a theory that has absolutely no story backup: maybe it was GRESH who learned MATORAN when the Ignika gave him elemental powers? Food for thought.

Possible, but not likely. Mata Nui didn't know that he was going to need to communicate with the Matoran at that point. From his own words, it would appear that Mata Nui thought he would find a way back into his universe and take down Makuta from within.

True. But the Ignika has done many things accientally, no? Like the insane Great Being's permanent curse and Vezon's ability to use Kanohi?

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#18 Offline I Exist

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 11:08 PM

Maybe the language is a side-effect of the elemental power gift.Also, remember that Tren Krom(as Lewa) sent a signal to Bara Magna from the MU while he was in space.Tren Krom knew about the GB and probably the Agori langage. Anticipating the fight, maybe he sent a signalthat granted the Agori and/or the Matoran the ability to understand the langage.Other theorie : Tahu Nuva was in his adaptative armor. Maybe that armor can act as a translator. It's suppose to adapt to any situation, right?
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#19 Offline Alyska

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 11:24 PM

Pretty sure it was confirmed by Greg that Mata Nui gave everyone in the MU the ability to speak Agori via some sort of beam. I think this was done from the robot, not from the Ignika. Lewa and a few others missed out because they were in a fortress on Bota Magna when it happened.
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#20 Offline T.B.O.C

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Posted Nov 14 2012 - 11:44 PM

Here's a theory that has absolutely no story backup: maybe it was GRESH who learned MATORAN when the Ignika gave him elemental powers? Food for thought.

Possible, but not likely. Mata Nui didn't know that he was going to need to communicate with the Matoran at that point. From his own words, it would appear that Mata Nui thought he would find a way back into his universe and take down Makuta from within.

True. But the Ignika has done many things accientally, no? Like the insane Great Being's permanent curse and Vezon's ability to use Kanohi?

Those are different things: the insane GB was it's first experience with people, and Vezon always could use kanohi.

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#21 Offline LockmanCapulet

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Posted Nov 15 2012 - 12:16 AM

Those are different things: the insane GB was it's first experience with people, and Vezon always could use kanohi.

Vezon could not normally use Kanohi, just like any other Skakdi. Thay lacked the mental capacity. He gained the ability from his time with the Ignika. From The Bionicle Wiki: "Despite his lack of mental discipline, his contact with the Ignika trained him to be able to use Great Masks."

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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 15 2012 - 12:52 AM

Those are different things: the insane GB was it's first experience with people, and Vezon always could use kanohi.

Vezon could not normally use Kanohi, just like any other Skakdi. Thay lacked the mental capacity. He gained the ability from his time with the Ignika. From [another website]: "Despite his lack of mental discipline, his contact with the Ignika trained him to be able to use Great Masks."

That website is unreliable, and we can't mention it here.

Skakdi also have the ability to wear Kanohi, though most lack the mental discipline required to use a Mask of Power.

Note the use of the word "most".

[Vezon] later wore the last known Kanohi Olmak in the Matoran Universe. When he was hit by a wave of Energized Protodermis, the Olmak and its power were absorbed into his body, and he now has the ability to instantly shift between locations. However, he currently has no control over when these portals open and where they lead.

There is that.
Spoiler
Also, Vezon is a spilt-off of the tactical knowledge of Vezok. He is not a typical Skakdi, and being insane might not indicate a lack of mental discipline. He might be able to focus his desires. Those desires are just...insane.

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#23 Offline LockmanCapulet

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Posted Nov 15 2012 - 01:39 AM

Also, Vezon is a spilt-off of the tactical knowledge of Vezok. He is not a typical Skakdi, and being insane might not indicate a lack of mental discipline. He might be able to focus his desires. Those desires are just...insane.

Good point. He is a brilliant tactitian, after all. He's got a brain, albeit an unstable one.In any case, the imprisoned GB exemplifies my point- the Ignika can do things without meaning to. Yes, I know that it permacursed the GB becuase it had no experience, but how many times had it granted elemental powers before that? Also, elemental powers weren't exactly a common thing on Bara Magna. The ignika may have simply associated the powers with the language, since they both came from the MU. It had just developed its speech a short time prior in Karda Nui, after all.

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#24 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 15 2012 - 01:51 AM

Also, Vezon is a spilt-off of the tactical knowledge of Vezok. He is not a typical Skakdi, and being insane might not indicate a lack of mental discipline. He might be able to focus his desires. Those desires are just...insane.

Good point. He is a brilliant tactitian, after all. He's got a brain, albeit an unstable one.In any case, the imprisoned GB exemplifies my point- the Ignika can do things without meaning to. Yes, I know that it permacursed the GB becuase it had no experience, but how many times had it granted elemental powers before that? Also, elemental powers weren't exactly a common thing on Bara Magna. The ignika may have simply associated the powers with the language, since they both came from the MU. It had just developed its speech a short time prior in Karda Nui, after all.

Actually, it was confirmed by Greg that the Glatorian have innate elemental powers. Mata Nui simply upgraded the Glatorian's weapons to channel the powers. Mata Nui wanted the Glatorian to think that power was in the weapons, because that is what they were used to from the Core War. Which disproves your theory. Only the weapons were modified, not the actual Glatorian. Thus the Glatorian weren't modified to speak Matoran.

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#25 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Nov 15 2012 - 12:07 PM

Actually, it was confirmed by Greg that the Glatorian have innate elemental powers. Mata Nui simply upgraded the Glatorian's weapons to channel the powers. Mata Nui wanted the Glatorian to think that power was in the weapons, because that is what they were used to from the Core War.

I think the Ignika did alter the Glatorian Mata Nui used it on, making them the Bionicle equivalent of Marvel superheroes (by which I mean mutants). Normally they don't have any elemental powers, but I agree with what you said about the Core War weapons -- since the Ignika also altered their weapons, they first believed that it had just made them into Core War-style elemental weapons. Remember, Gresh exchanged his Ignika-altered weapons for a different pair (the Exsidian ones in his Stars form) and was still able to use his elemental power.As for the original question, I also remember reading that Mata Nui gave his people the ability to speak Agori sometime at the beginning of the battle. If that wasn't an ability of the Ignika, I wonder if it was an ability of the Prototype Robot itself, or if Mata Nui had that power because he was the Great Spirit. I was about to say it sounds like an odd thing to do during a battle, but then I realized that when he saw the Toa and others emerging onto Bara Magna, he'd want them to be able to communicate and coordinate with the natives. If Tahu, Takanuva, and Gresh hadn't understood each other, the Toa and Glatorian probably would have attacked each other. Between that, the Skrall, and Makuta's minions, a lot more of Mata Nui's allies would die even if Teridax was still defeated, and Tahu might have never gotten to use the golden armor that allowed Mata Nui to win.

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