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Elemental Limits

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#1 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 01:54 PM

These are a few things a would like the know the details about.

 

Light:

 

Can toa of light make objects ivisible by redirecting light?

 

(My opinion: Yes with a lot of control)

 

Water:

 

What type of wate do toa of water create Protodermis or Water

 

(My opinion: the type of fluid they absorb)

 

And last can a toa of the green control oil:

 

My opinion: Yes)

 

If I think of more I'll add them

 

 

 


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#2 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 02:02 PM

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]As for this first, I think so, yes. They can create holograms with sufficient concentration, I don't see why invisibility would be impossible. A bit harder maybe, and it'd only work really well if the object wasn't moving... but I think it could happen.[/color][/font]

 

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]As for the second, I would guess that it's protodermic water since that's what is in the MU. This would of course be different once they exit onto Spherus Magna and absorb 'real' water, so yeah, I think you're pretty much right about that.[/color][/font]

 

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]And the third... be more specific. Do you mean plant oils specifically? Then yes, obviously. If it's something like fossil fuels (or whatever) derived from plants, I wouldn't think so. Maybe if they had extremely fine-tuned their power?[/color][/font]


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#3 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 02:45 PM

These are a few things a would like the know the details about.

 

Light:

 

Can toa of light make objects ivisible by redirecting light?

 

(My opinion: Yes with a lot of control)

 

Water:

 

What type of wate do toa of water create Protodermis or Water

 

(My opinion: the type of fluid they absorb)

 

And last can a toa of the green control oil:

 

My opinion: Yes)

 

If I think of more I'll add them

 

 

 

1) Well, I should think so, as long as they had the concentration to do it. Like, it would be harder to make a huge moving object invisible then a small immobile object.

 

2) I think it's what is around them, since they don't exactly create water, they manipulate moisture in the air to create, say, a water jet. So if protodermic water is around them, that's what they'll use, and if it's H2O water, that's what they'll use.

 

3) Fossil fuels come from fossils in the ground, often from sea life fossils (if I remember correctly). Not to many plants live in the ocean. Also, keep in mind that they control plant life not parts of plants. Plants do what they want them to do, not a bucket of olive oil.

 

 

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Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon, Dec 03 2012 - 02:53 PM.

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#4 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 04:43 PM

1) Should be very difficult but possible. It would be easier to wear a Huna. :P

 

2) It's confirmed they can make both. Generally they'll make whatever is native to where they are. So Gali on Mata Nui would make natural water, but when she went down to Metru Nui, she would make protowater.

 

3) It's the element of "Plant Life", so IMO no. Only living plants. They can, however, make plants that while alive will secrete plant oils.


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#5 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 04:48 PM

Onr mote question can a toa of iron manipulate each type of metal or just protosteel/iron
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#6 Offline Cratak

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 05:07 PM

Onr mote question can a toa of iron manipulate each type of metal or just protosteel/iron

I would assume just iron, seeing as it is a specific element (Fe).

With that being said, I'm not sure if there would need to be a Toa for each different metal or just a Toa of Metal, or maybe even a Toa of Transition Metals.


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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 05:11 PM

 

Onr mote question can a toa of iron manipulate each type of metal or just protosteel/iron

I would assume just iron, seeing as it is a specific element (Fe).

With that being said, I'm not sure if there would need to be a Toa for each different metal or just a Toa of Metal, or maybe even a Toa of Transition Metals.

 

Nonononono [/Rodney McCay], "Iron" is just poetic. It's all metal (both protometal and natural). And it causes this unfortunate misconception, heh.


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#8 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 06:23 PM

So Fe-Toa would be able to manipulate, say, magnesium? Or zinc? Or platinum?
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#9 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 06:32 PM

So Fe-Toa would be able to manipulate, say, magnesium? Or zinc? Or platinum?

If those metals existed in Bionicle, yes.

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#10 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 06:34 PM

Yes. Most of the time, IMO, they are manipulating a "generic protodermic metal" that isn't given such specific matter-mimicking physics, but is roughly similar to iron or aluminum (depending on if it's rustable or not).


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#11 Offline Truaga_nuju

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 08:21 PM

I have a 'question' of some sort.I've always wondered where the boundary between Toa of Water and Toa of Ice is. If a Toa of Ice can control the cold, couldn't they just freeze water and gain control over it? And technically speaking, ice and water are the same thing. So where is the line drawn? Logically speaking, Toa of Ice could dominate with control over coldness.Also, slushies. They are both water and ice! D:

Edited by Truaga_nuju, Dec 03 2012 - 08:30 PM.

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#12 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 03 2012 - 08:55 PM

The boundary is the melting/freezing point. Toa of Ice could certainly freeze water and control it, as long as it's still frozen. As for slush, I guess a Toa of Ice could control the bits of ice and a Toa of Water could control the liquid part.


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#13 Offline Onarax

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Posted Dec 04 2012 - 04:05 AM

I have a 'question' of some sort. I've always wondered where the boundary between Toa of Water and Toa of Ice is. If a Toa of Ice can control the cold, couldn't they just freeze water and gain control over it? And technically speaking, ice and water are the same thing. So where is the line drawn? Logically speaking, Toa of Ice could dominate with control over coldness. Also, slushies. They are both water and ice! D:

Toa of Ice can cool down things and control ice, while Toa of Water can control water ... and possibly control moisture? Because I recall reading that Hahli had been creating moisture back in Legends #5.


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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 04 2012 - 11:53 AM

Moisture is water, yes. Just in small amounts. To some extent they can also control water vapor.


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#15 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Dec 04 2012 - 07:17 PM

These are a few things a would like the know the details about. Light: Can toa of light make objects ivisible by redirecting light?

Yes. Toa of Light can already use precision Light Control to create holograms (as demonstrated by Takanuva), so Invisibility shouldn't be much more difficult.

Water: What type of wate do toa of water create Protodermis or Water

I would say that in the Matoran Universe, they created Protodermic water. However, Toa of Water were rarely shown creating water at all, as most preferred to draw on humidity instead. As such, it's possible that they will still create Protodermic water on Spherus Magna, or that their natural recharge of elemental energy will automatically draw on whatever water's around. Either way. 

And last can a toa of the green control oil:

I would say no, if only because that seems like a more obscure use of the power and not something that the Great Beings would program in. However, it's possible that they could have made Toa of the Green able to control oil for some undisclosed reason.

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#16 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 04:44 PM

New question, how would a nova blast of an element like stne iron earth look like. Just a giant amouth of stones you launch in the air?
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#17 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 04:53 PM

Yeah, Stone and Iron Nova Blasts would probably be great cascades of rock and metal respectively in all directions. I imagine an Earth Nova Blast would cause an extremely intense earthquake that would knock down everything in its area and throw a lot of earth into the air.


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#18 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 05:33 PM

I'd say most likely to all of them. 

Hmm... Can Toa of Lightning create magnets? (electromagnetism)

 

Also, I'm wondering how a nova blast of gravity would work. 


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#19 Offline Kavu

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 05:51 PM

I'd say most likely to all of them. 

Hmm... Can Toa of Lightning create magnets? (electromagnetism)

 

Also, I'm wondering how a nova blast of gravity would work. 

For the first I have no idea

 

For the second however, I would guess the Nova blast would increase the gravitational pull of everything around the Toa effectively letting the targets eat dirt, and dirt eat the targets depending on how you look at it. :P


Edited by The Great Being Velika, Dec 05 2012 - 05:51 PM.

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#20 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 05:55 PM

New question, how would a nova blast of an element like stne iron earth look like. Just a giant amouth of stones you launch in the air?

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Probably rocks flying everywhere. :lol:[/color][/font]

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]As with iron, that'd probably be, like, shards of Toa-energized metal or something. Similarly with earth, combined with an earthquake like you mentioned.[/color][/font]

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]I think there was some discussion a few months ago about what a grav nova blast would do. I think it was eventually agreed that it would manifest initially as pure Toa elemental energy (the kind normally turned immediately into fire, water, etc. when attacking). When this massive wave of Toa energy would hit an object (or area), it would then shift to gravity energy, and basically send the gravitational pull of the targets (or the area they were in) haywire.[/color][/font]

 

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Bones probably knows.[/color][/font]


Edited by Chro, Dec 05 2012 - 05:56 PM.

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#21 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 05:58 PM

 

I'd say most likely to all of them. 

Hmm... Can Toa of Lightning create magnets? (electromagnetism)

 

Also, I'm wondering how a nova blast of gravity would work. 

For the first I have no idea

 

For the second however, I would guess the Nova blast would increase the gravitational pull of everything around the Toa effectively letting the targets eat dirt, and dirt eat the targets depending on how you look at it. :P

 

I feel like that would be really odd though. I mean, everything just hitting the ground or floating when this wave hits. I dunno, it's just... odd. :P 


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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 07:13 PM

New question, how would a nova blast of an element like stne iron earth look like. Just a giant amouth of stones you launch in the air?

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Probably rocks flying everywhere. :lol:[/color][/font][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]As with iron, that'd probably be, like, shards of Toa-energized metal or something. Similarly with earth, combined with an earthquake like you mentioned.[/color][/font][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]I think there was some discussion a few months ago about what a grav nova blast would do. I think it was eventually agreed that it would manifest initially as pure Toa elemental energy (the kind normally turned immediately into fire, water, etc. when attacking). When this massive wave of Toa energy would hit an object (or area), it would then shift to gravity energy, and basically send the gravitational pull of the targets (or the area they were in) haywire.[/color][/font] [font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Bones probably knows.[/color][/font]
#quote endI thought a gravity nova blast would make a black hole.

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#23 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 05 2012 - 08:49 PM

Nova Blasts are by definition out of control, so it's the element radiating from a point. Making everything heavy in a downward direction doesn't apply to this as it would make a controlled field of gravity radiating from a flat surface rather than a point.

 

Translation, yeah, black hole. :P

 

Also, I think it's safe to assume that the five elemental out-of-control blasts of the Kal are essentially what the Toa Nova Blasts of those elements would be, and the gravity Kal's was a black hole.

 

The trickier ones to figure out are those that make solids, including Stone and Iron, as we don't know if for example Stone would encase everything around in Stone, or create a radiating eruption of boulders, gravel, or what.


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#24 Offline Podu

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 04:22 AM

Nova Blasts are by definition out of control, so it's the element radiating from a point. Making everything heavy in a downward direction doesn't apply to this as it would make a controlled field of gravity radiating from a flat surface rather than a point.

 

Translation, yeah, black hole. :P

 

Also, I think it's safe to assume that the five elemental out-of-control blasts of the Kal are essentially what the Toa Nova Blasts of those elements would be, and the gravity Kal's was a black hole.

 

The trickier ones to figure out are those that make solids, including Stone and Iron, as we don't know if for example Stone would encase everything around in Stone, or create a radiating eruption of boulders, gravel, or what.

 

 

I am more interested in how the Toa would survive his own Nova Blast if it was the former case. Just that he is a Toa doesn't mean he is immune to suffocation :/


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#25 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 08:24 AM

I take it that a Nova Blast is a "if all else fails last ditch effort" thing, which kills everything around the Nova blaster, and possibly the blaster him/herself. While a Toa of Fire might survive his own blast, there's no going back from a black hole or being suffocated by a covering of ice, stone, iron, or earth. It's possible that such Toa could bust their way out of such a thing if they had a Pakari, maybe. Even if the person involved doesn't kill themselves with their own blast, they are out of elemental energy and are thus vulnerable to any enemies not killed by the blast (highly unlikely, but could happen).Would it be a correct supposition that no Gravity Toa have gone Nova in the history of the MU? I think a black hole would have done the robot in.

Edited by fishers64, Dec 06 2012 - 08:27 AM.

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#26 Offline VeoiTheRascal

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 09:29 AM

How much elemental energy does a toa have in the first place?

 

I mean, you need a CRAZY-ton of mass just to get a small black hole, would a Toa of gravity actually have enough EE to make one in a Nova blast?


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#27 Offline wolf66849

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 09:29 AM

Well it would probably make black holes all around the toa so he would have a chance to get out of there. Or he might cause everyone hit to go flying the opposite direction of the toa. Either way it would be one serious VOMIT COMET!


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#28 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 11:00 AM

I think every Toa's Nova Blast has about the same radius of destruction. So a Toa of Gravity's would probably create a tiny pseudo-black hole that obliterates everything in the normal radius, then disperses. I'm pretty sure such an attack would be suicidal for the Toa, too.


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#29 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 11:09 AM

Nova Blasts usually are suicide attacks, yes. Last resorts. Some of the less deadly elements are an exception, especially Water. Which is why Gali has made a Nova Blast and survived.

 

And obviously a Toa of Gravity (at full EE charge anyways) has enough to create a black hole, since the gravity Kal did. :)


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#30 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 11:14 AM

But that was a tiny black hole; only big enough to suck Nuhvok Kal in. A nova blast level black hole would cause a massive spacetime disruption: would a toa be able to do that?
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#31 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 11:57 AM

Well, assuming standard Nova Blasts are all the same size, a Gravity Nova Blast wouldn't create an actual black hole like the kind that stars can become. More like what Nuhvok Kal did, but big enough to destroy all of Metru Nui.


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#32 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 12:45 PM

But that was a tiny black hole; only big enough to suck Nuhvok Kal in. A nova blast level black hole would cause a massive spacetime disruption: would a toa be able to do that?

Doesn't the question answer itself? Since the Kal made one, and you see it as small, if a Toa's Nova Blast has to be more powerful, obviously it would make a worse black hole. :)

 

However, I'm not sure the logic of a "tiny black hole" works, as to make even a tiny one takes a huge amount of gravity. All we know is that Nova Blasts make the element in about the amount of the size of Metru Nui. We don't know if that amount of gravity energy would actually have a noticeable effect on the entire area; the element amount and the size of the effect may be two different things. In other words, things at the edge of that range might just feel a slight tug, and things halfway there might feel something like Jupiter gravity, while only things within a small radius would actually get pulled in (in this theoretical example, anyways, assuming I'm right about range =/= effect).


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#33 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 02:30 PM

 

But that was a tiny black hole; only big enough to suck Nuhvok Kal in. A nova blast level black hole would cause a massive spacetime disruption: would a toa be able to do that?

Doesn't the question answer itself? Since the Kal made one, and you see it as small, if a Toa's Nova Blast has to be more powerful, obviously it would make a worse black hole. :)

 

However, I'm not sure the logic of a "tiny black hole" works, as to make even a tiny one takes a huge amount of gravity. All we know is that Nova Blasts make the element in about the amount of the size of Metru Nui. We don't know if that amount of gravity energy would actually have a noticeable effect on the entire area; the element amount and the size of the effect may be two different things. In other words, things at the edge of that range might just feel a slight tug, and things halfway there might feel something like Jupiter gravity, while only things within a small radius would actually get pulled in (in this theoretical example, anyways, assuming I'm right about range =/= effect).

 

 

 

Isn't that one of the reasons that Greg said that there aren't that many Toa of Gravity since they are so powerful?


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#34 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 02:46 PM

I think so. And why Nova Blasts were almost never used, because they're so destructive.


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#35 Offline Solomon Kane

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 03:18 PM

Hmm... Can Toa of Lightning create magnets? (electromagnetism)

Electromagnetism is essentially electrical current travelling in loops--you can make a simple electromagnet simply by running a current through a tightly coiled wire. So I'd say that, for a sufficiently skilled Toa, creating an elctromagnetic field would be quite easy. It's worth noting, though, that she would have no direct control over the magnetic force, only the current generating it--she could make it stronger or weaker by siphoning more or less power into the current, or cut it off entirely by killing the current, but she wouldn't be able to, for instance, prevent it from acting on something within its range.   "Songs that the Hyades shall sing, / Where flap the tatters of the King, / Must die unheard in / Dim Carcosa."

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#36 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 04:21 PM

 

Hmm... Can Toa of Lightning create magnets? (electromagnetism)

Electromagnetism is essentially electrical current travelling in loops--you can make a simple electromagnet simply by running a current through a tightly coiled wire. So I'd say that, for a sufficiently skilled Toa, creating an elctromagnetic field would be quite easy. It's worth noting, though, that she would have no direct control over the magnetic force, only the current generating it--she could make it stronger or weaker by siphoning more or less power into the current, or cut it off entirely by killing the current, but she wouldn't be able to, for instance, prevent it from acting on something within its range.   "Songs that the Hyades shall sing, / Where flap the tatters of the King, / Must die unheard in / Dim Carcosa."

 

So basically, a Toa of Magnetism vs. a Toa of Lightning would make for an interesting fight. 


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#37 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 04:25 PM

Next question: Can a toa of stone levitate a stone and if so, canThey use it for flight?
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#38 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 04:46 PM

Yes. I think we have seen this before. There have been a lot of flying rocks in the story.


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#39 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 04:48 PM

He's asking if you can ride on one of those flying rocks. But yes, I think you could.


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#40 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 06 2012 - 04:49 PM

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Yep. And I imagine it wouldn't be hard to craft a stone like a surfboard and fly around on that. It'd probably take a lot of concentration, though, especially since Toa of Stone tend to be so heavy.[/color][/font]


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