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Elemental Flight -- Quotes & Stuff


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#41 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 03:43 PM

And a toa of stone could make some sort of suit using layers of stone and air to soften his fall.
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#42 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 05:31 PM

I dare say that would only serve to make you impact something harder than the ground. :P
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#43 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 07:41 PM

Yeah. Does make me think of those stone-chopping techniques Karate uses, though. If you were to make one of those on the ground and make sure not to hit the edges, the layered breaking might also cushion your fall a little. Of course if you did hit the sturdy edges from a windgust or the like you'd make things worse. The ramp idea would still be safer IMO.


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#44 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 10:48 PM

I also imagine a toa of stone as being able to throw a rock on the air and then jump off it onto the next one that they throw.  That way they would only be jumping off of rocks that they already threw and wouldn't be actively holding them while touching them.  Does this seem plausible?


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#45 Online Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 10:53 PM

POssibly, but a more efficient way would be to just build a bridge of stone.


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#46 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 11:02 PM

[color=#808080;][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"]At this point, it's less "would a Toa do this?" as opposed to "could a Toa do this?"... at least, that's how I'm seeing it. We know that ramps, apires, bridges, or whatever else could be much more effective, but I still think it would be cool to know, for example, if it would be possible for a Toa of Stone to rock-leap, as suggested by [/color]DarkLordBane.[/font]
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#47 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 11:44 PM

I also imagine a toa of stone as being able to throw a rock on the air and then jump off it onto the next one that they throw.  That way they would only be jumping off of rocks that they already threw and wouldn't be actively holding them while touching them.  Does this seem plausible?

POssibly, but a more efficient way would be to just build a bridge of stone.

Well, one scenario I thought of while working on this topic would be that a Toa of Stone atop a cliff might be able to lift a boulder telekinetically from the base of the cliff, and leap onto it as it comes up, say about halfway down. That might slow a fall enough to land safely where a mere jump would not. (As long as they're careful to bend their knees so there's some bounce, otherwise the impact could damage them.)

This would actually be more efficient than a bridge if they were in a situation where they wouldn't have time to make new stone. Say, a deadly enemy is chasing them, or they are chasing an enemy and can't risk pausing long or they'll lose them.

 

Still, even here, it's very risky because you'd have to time it just right. And everything including the heights, the mass of the boulder, and the aim of their jump and telekinesis would have to be just right. Mess up any one part of that and it could easily be fatal. That height would also have to be fairly low, enough that if they just jumped off they'd probably survive but with some damage (or else the boulder would have to be going too fast).

 

I don't think a multi-step system like that would be wise in any situation, but it is technically possible. The distance from each boulder to the next would have to be short, just like in the above scenario. [Edit: And to make sure this is clear, ONLY for a step-down system, as in to the ground. Crossing at a level would not work because to have the boulders have enough momentum they'd have to be going so fast you'd only injure yourself... midair. :P It could only help slow a fall.]

 

Another easier way to get down most cliffs, though, would be to telekinetically command handholds to blast out from the cliff face (assuming the cliff is made of stone), which wouldn't require making new stone.

 

Really, though, the making of new elements has been depicted as fairly fast, though, so I do think this is all an exercise in technicality. I suppose if they were very low on EE, and were very confident and skilled, it's possible it would actually happen. But you'd basically have to authorially engineer a plot specifically to cause it to be needed just to showcase it, and I doubt it would ever feel realistic.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 10 2012 - 11:56 PM.

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#48 Offline Torchflare1234

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 03:05 PM

[color=#b22222;]In BIONICLE Legends #11: The Final Battle, after Gorast uses her Kanohi Felnas to disrupt Pohatu's elemental power, he and Photok sink down into the mud. Pohatu then fuses the stones together, levitates the stone and thus himself and Photok out of the swamp.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]I believe any Toa can find a way to use his or her elemental power to achieve some method of transportation, but I don't believe any Toa can achieve true flight without being aided by a Tool or Mask. Even BS01 says that Magnetism and Gravity achieve only a limited form of flight.[/color]


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#49 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 03:29 PM

I wonder if a Toa of the Green could do anything to achieve flight. Who knows, maybe there is a species of large, flying/floating plant life somewhere on SM, (like the peahats from zelda) and they could re-create them and hitch a ride or something.

 

I never thought of a Toa of Iron creating a helicopter out of metal, that's actually pretty clever. :P Assuming one could be skilled enough to build one that was lightweight enough.

 

Doesn't it say somewhere on BS01 that Takanuva is experimenting with doing that technique that umbra uses by turning himself into pure, living light? Perhaps if he could eventually figure out how to do it then Light could be considered an element capable of flight as well. Because if I remember correctly Umbra could fly while in light form.

 

Could a Toa of Lightning somehow manipulate electricity to create magnetic fields that would enable flight? 


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#50 Online The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 03:45 PM

I don't think plants can technically fly. Some can send seeds with fuzz on them so that they float around on the air, but not fly.

 

Even if a Toa of Iron knew what a helicopter was, what would power it? All of your concentration is being used with keeping the craft together and spinning the blades that even if you did get off the ground, would you be in any condition to fight?

 

I don't think Toa can turn into their element. Toa of Water can't turn into puddles, Toa of Stone cant become sculptures, and Toa of Air can't transform into breezes. So Toa of Light can't turn into light beams. That was a non-elemental power Umbra had.

 

For some reason, I always thought they could. Honestly, I feel like a Toa of Water should be able to fly if they shoot water down in continuous, concentrated blasts; like those jet packs people can have. Now that I think about it, Lightning might not work unless there is force with the blast to get you off the ground. Even then, the ground could become so charred that there would be more destruction caused by the Toa than their foes might make.


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#51 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 04:27 PM

[color=#b22222;]In BIONICLE Legends #11: The Final Battle, after Gorast uses her Kanohi Felnas to disrupt Pohatu's elemental power, he and Photok sink down into the mud. Pohatu then fuses the stones together, levitates the stone and thus himself and Photok out of the swamp.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]I believe any Toa can find a way to use his or her elemental power to achieve some method of transportation, but I don't believe any Toa can achieve true flight without being aided by a Tool or Mask. Even BS01 says that Magnetism and Gravity achieve only a limited form of flight.[/color]

Well, that would seem to throw a wrench in Greg's answers... Hm. Will have to look that one up. I'm not convinced until I read it myself. :P (Are we sure it wasn't the typical spike of stone coming out of the ground?)

 

 

I wonder if a Toa of the Green could do anything to achieve flight. Who knows, maybe there is a species of large, flying/floating plant life somewhere on SM, (like the peahats from zelda) and they could re-create them and hitch a ride or something.

Well, Zelda Wind Waker had that leaf that you could catch updrafts on. If there was such an updraft (though that seems unlikely) somewhere, they could.

 

Maybe if they made a giant lightweight pod-balloon plant, which filled the balloon with plant-emitted lightweight gas, it could form a flying balloon.

 

It may also be possible simply to make fast-moving (Venus flytrap style) "muscles" in a winged plant form. If you've played my computer game The Map of Mata Nui, in the Le maze I had flying plant bad guys using that method. Make a big enough one to ride on and it could work.

 

 

Doesn't it say somewhere on BS01 that Takanuva is experimenting with doing that technique that umbra uses by turning himself into pure, living light? Perhaps if he could eventually figure out how to do it then Light could be considered an element capable of flight as well. Because if I remember correctly Umbra could fly while in light form.

I've heard that rumor but I'm pretty sure TNT is right; Toa cannot turn into their elements. Are you sure it wasn't hard light that he was experimenting with? I've heard it as a rumor both ways.

 

However, I wonder if a Toa of Light could somehow combine a hard light wing type formation with light propulsion? Similar to the original depiction of the Kewa/Gukko/whatever in MNOG Le-Koro (the takeoff to the Nui-Rama shooting minigame).

 

 

Even if a Toa of Iron knew what a helicopter was, what would power it? All of your concentration is being used with keeping the craft together and spinning the blades that even if you did get off the ground, would you be in any condition to fight?

Their own elemental telekinesis should be able to make the blades spin. Of course, if they're good with engineering they might be able to combine other machine components with EE-made metal parts to make an actual powered vehicle too.


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#52 Online The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 04:34 PM

I just think it would be easier to have a Kadin, Miru or Levitation Disks. :P


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#53 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 04:38 PM

I just think it would be easier to have a Kadin, Miru or Levitation Disks. :P

Still, it's quite possible for a Toa of these elements to find themselves in need of flight with no access to those. Most Toa just carry the mask they have on their face, after all.


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#54 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 03:10 PM

Couldn't Toa of Stone fly by simply moving sizable rocks in the air and be inside/standing in them? -Tomdroidser

What bonesii gave a perfect sientific explenation why not, thats the whole point of this topic
Except that Pohatu did it in The Final Battle.

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#55 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 03:12 PM

but that stone was still conected to the ground so technicly he was standing on a pillar


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#56 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 03:47 PM

Here's what BS01 says about that scene:

 

Elsewhere, Pohatu and Photok battle against Makuta Gorast.... Gorast then uses her Kanohi Felnas to disrupt Pohatu's Elemental Powers, burying the Toa and Matoran under a mountain of rocks....

 

Trapped inside a tiny pocket under the mount, Photok desperately attempts to awaken the unconscious Pohatu. When shaking the fallen Toa has no effect, Photok begins hitting the Toa with light blasts. His initial two attempts fail, but the third, more powerful attempt, works. Conscious once more, Pohatu fuses the rocks together, then uses his powers over stone to levitate out of the swamp.

 

That certainly does make it seem like the rock levitated and in turn lifted Pohatu, rather than a ground-connection. I don't have time at the moment to look it up in the actual book. That quote is from the Legends 11 page.

 

The parallel quote from the Pohatu page says the opposite:

 

 

During the first battle, Pohatu and Photok were up against Gorast, who used her Felnas on him, making his stone powers go out of control. He and Photok were buried under tonnes of rock, and he was knocked out. Sometime later, Photok woke him up and Pohatu used his powers to mentally lift the rocks away. The duo then flew off.

So in this scenario, he was just levitating the rocks forming the roof over him away, not to lift himself. And considering they have jet powers, this makes much more sense anyways. The first quote is somewhat ambiguous too and could be interpreted consistently with this but missing some detail.

 

So, either Pohatu fused the ceiling rocks together and made it lift way then they flew out under their jet power, or he fused the ceiling, lifted it away, and they rode a levitated rock out. If it's the latter, then I guess we'd have to theorize that in the case of Toa of Iron it's actually a special limit specifically against the armor itself, but a platform of Iron might lift them. If the former, then what I said in the firstpost would still be accurate.

 

We'll have to see how the book words it from here (if anyone has time right now, go for it; I might get a moment later on today to check it though).


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#57 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 03:50 PM

Maybe it's a special ability he has as a Nuva.


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#58 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 03:56 PM

Maybe it's a special ability he has as a Nuva.

Well, he did collect a Miru Nuva, but that wouldn't levitate the rock. Considering that, there's two ways he and Photok could already levitate out of the swamp, so the idea that he needed to use a rock is doubly redundant. :shrugs:

 

 

Maybe he lifted rock plus they were using their jets too. I'm a little confused about the "from the swamp" part. This almost makes it sound like they were submerged (though I don't remember anything like that from when I read it). If he fused the rock in a sphere around them to sort of act like a submarine, and they both flew with their jets, while he levitated the rock around them, it could work under my logic in the firstpost (the jets would be forming the real foot-hold). The reason for this would be to make sure they kept breathing air with them all the way out of the swamp. But then, it's a swamp, so is it even deep enough for such a thing?

 

Edit: They'd also be avoiding the mutagenic effects of the swamp water that way.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 14 2012 - 03:58 PM.

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#59 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 04:22 PM

In the book (I own it) , they were being buried under several tons of rock. Then we see that they are surrounded by rock, and Pohatu says that if they flew out, they would end up in the swamp water; so, they are completely surrounded by rock, in the swamp water. Pohatu then fuses the rocks together, and levitates it, with them in it, out of the swamp.


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#60 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 04:37 PM

Does it mention the jetpacks, or standing on it? I want the exact quote. :)


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#61 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 05:00 PM

 

Maybe it's a special ability he has as a Nuva.

Well, he did collect a Miru Nuva, but that wouldn't levitate the rock. Considering that, there's two ways he and Photok could already levitate out of the swamp, so the idea that he needed to use a rock is doubly redundant. :shrugs:

 

I meant maybe the ability to levitate one's element while standing on it is unique to the Nuva. Anyway, the walls of Karda Nui prevented access to the Suva, so he wouldn't have been able to use his Miru Nuva.

 

I hope a non-contradictory explanation for this can be found. It really seems to mess up the whole logical reason why they couldn't we came up with earlier.


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#62 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 06:05 PM

"First, Photok saw the rocks above and below fuse together into a solid mass. There was a sensation of movement, and the Matoran felt a little dizzy for a moment. Then he realized what was happening. He, Pohatu, and all the rock that surrounded them were rising. The Toa was using his mastery of stone to levitate them from the swamp at an incredible rate of speed."

 

The Final Battle pg. 24-25


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#63 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 06:12 PM

Is there proof he wasn't creating a giant pillar of stone? Or launching himself and that rock of the round using a pinball machanism

Edited by Dual Matrix, Dec 14 2012 - 06:13 PM.

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#64 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 01:37 AM

"First, Photok saw the rocks above and below fuse together into a solid mass. There was a sensation of movement, and the Matoran felt a little dizzy for a moment. Then he realized what was happening. He, Pohatu, and all the rock that surrounded them were rising. The Toa was using his mastery of stone to levitate them from the swamp at an incredible rate of speed."

 

The Final Battle pg. 24-25

So the words "levitate them" are right from the book, and the first BS01 quote is the accurate one. Well now, how do we explain the Toa of Iron limitation, then? A GB artificial rule against self-telekinesis? Seems hardly worth it, considering the Toa of Iron can just make a platform from EE and levitate that way. And then why did Onewa ever climb anywhere, etc.? Why not just levitate on a platform?

 

Where to go from here would be to ask Greg about this apparent contradiction. :)

 

Is there proof he wasn't creating a giant pillar of stone? Or launching himself and that rock of the round using a pinball machanism

Both of those would be consistent with past usage, except if he was making a pillar, I'd expect it to be fairly slow, not "an incredible rate of speed." And if the latter, I'd expect some mention of it, or a feeling of a big impact or something. And jetpacks seem clearly ruled out. It seems we're forced to conclude that the platform method would work after all.

 

I wonder if "mastery of stone" is supposed to imply that it's something only a really skilled Toa could do, though. Or a Toa Nuva as The Iron Toa said.

 

 

Of course, being Mr. Physics, I know how I would do it if I was Pohatu, and technically it's consistent with that wording. I'd absorb bits of stone from all over the insides of the walls of this spheroid, fused structure. This would create pockets of vacuum, making the total density less than the water, thus it would float even better than pumice (as long as he held focus on its strength). That is, it would rocket upwards at an incredible speed.

 

Problem is, dunno if Greg is a physics geek quite enough to think of this. :P


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 15 2012 - 01:42 AM.

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#65 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 06:14 AM

"First, Photok saw the rocks above and below fuse together into a solid mass. There was a sensation of movement, and the Matoran felt a little dizzy for a moment. Then he realized what was happening. He, Pohatu, and all the rock that surrounded them were rising. The Toa was using his mastery of stone to levitate them from the swamp at an incredible rate of speed."

 

The Final Battle pg. 24-25

 

 

Hew but wait the them can also refer to the rocks  themselves can't it. So it could be he was flying with his jets really quick while he levitated some stones as weapons or protection against the mutagen


Edited by Dual Matrix, Dec 15 2012 - 06:15 AM.

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#66 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 12:20 PM

So the words "levitate them" are right from the book, and the first BS01 quote is the accurate one. Well now, how do we explain the Toa of Iron limitation, then? A GB artificial rule against self-telekinesis? Seems hardly worth it, considering the Toa of Iron can just make a platform from EE and levitate that way. And then why did Onewa ever climb anywhere, etc.? Why not just levitate on a platform?

//Climbing does not needlessly expend any EE, that is one explanation. I imagine that lifting yourself on a platform would feel somewhat like when I try to make a "thruster platform" in Garry's Mod: Sure, it easy to stick some propulsion on the thing, but actually balancing the thruster power and yourself so that the thing doesn't flip you off in mid-air is easier said than done. Consciously focusing on levitating would simply not be as smooth as the more subconscious flight mask usage or simple climbing. 

Both of those would be consistent with past usage, except if he was making a pillar, I'd expect it to be fairly slow, not "an incredible rate of speed." And if the latter, I'd expect some mention of it, or a feeling of a big impact or something. And jetpacks seem clearly ruled out. It seems we're forced to conclude that the platform method would work after all.

//Hewkii was capable of creating a stone fist to punch Vezon/Kardas in the face, so I assume elemental creation is as quick as you want it to be. Pohatu is a Toa Nuva, plus he had access to newly formed rock right there. He might not need much prompting before he could make it shoot upwards. Onua was also capable of creating a ramp that tripped a Kamaka-running Pohatu when they were testing their Nuva powers. It's quick alright. 

Of course, being Mr. Physics, I know how I would do it if I was Pohatu, and technically it's consistent with that wording. I'd absorb bits of stone from all over the insides of the walls of this spheroid, fused structure. This would create pockets of vacuum, making the total density less than the water, thus it would float even better than pumice (as long as he held focus on its strength). That is, it would rocket upwards at an incredible speed. Problem is, dunno if Greg is a physics geek quite enough to think of this. :P

//Might also be that pushing up on a sphere from the inside is easier than trying to lift something beneath your feet, since the latter would require focusing energy to flow from the outside and the former is just lifting your arms and beaming elemental energy at the target surface.

Edited by Katuko, Dec 15 2012 - 12:21 PM.

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#67 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 01:53 PM

Hew but wait the them can also refer to the rocks  themselves can't it. So it could be he was flying with his jets really quick while he levitated some stones as weapons or protection against the mutagen

Thought of that, but look more carefully at the wording:

 

 

There was a sensation of movement, and the Matoran felt a little dizzy for a moment. Then he realized what was happening. He, Pohatu, and all the rock that surrounded them were rising.

Photok started moving up, without understanding how, and had to figure out a cause. (The next sentence I left out identifies the cause, apparently, as the rock lifting them.) If he was using his own jetpack he would have to activate it himself intentionally.

 

Although... I suppoooooose, the rock would lift Photok by my reasoning, so I suppose it could still be explained consistently if Pohatu alone was using his jetpack. I dunno...

 

 

Climbing does not needlessly expend any EE, that is one explanation. I imagine that lifting yourself on a platform would feel somewhat like when I try to make a "thruster platform" in Garry's moderator: Sure, it easy to stick some propulsion on the thing, but actually balancing the thruster power and yourself so that the thing doesn't flip you off in mid-air is easier said than done. Consciously focusing on levitating would simply not be as smooth as the more subconscious flight mask usage or simple climbing.

That makes a ton of sense, yeah.

 

But what about when they were in a hurry, like seeking the Great Disks while Morby was causing chaos by the second? Nuju physically climbed to his, but a platform or the like could have been safer. The balance thing could be fixed by a sphere with some sighting/breathing holes in it, like a whiffle ball.

 

Admittedly, the power drain logic still makes sense there, though. And we know they drained all the way in the fight with Morby, so it did matter there. I dunno. Maybe he didn't climb all the way but went to the nearest window, too.

 

Also, we do have one issue still. Do we know that Pohatu could actually lift himself this way in air? In water is not necessarily the same thing, as many things that are bouyant in water are not in air (most). Maybe it's still a weaker effect, weak enough not to work in air?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hewkii was capable of creating a stone fist to punch Vezon/Kardas in the face

But that was a small effect, and we know there's a limit to how much they can make at a time. This was described as a mountain of rock (on BS01 anyways). To lift that, I'd expect it would take a while.

 

Then again, we don't know how much of the rock Pohatu fused. In fact come to think of it, it's quite possible only a small spheroid was actually being lifted and a pillar was being made by rearranging the other rock around it, with no new rock being made from EE at all. :shrugs:

 

Translation: We really do need Greg to sort this out lol.


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#68 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 02:38 PM

That makes a ton of sense, yeah. But what about when they were in a hurry, like seeking the Great Disks while Morby was causing chaos by the second? Nuju physically climbed to his, but a platform or the like could have been safer. The balance thing could be fixed by a sphere with some sighting/breathing holes in it, like a whiffle ball. Admittedly, the power drain logic still makes sense there, though. And we know they drained all the way in the fight with Morby, so it did matter there. I dunno. Maybe he didn't climb all the way but went to the nearest window, too.

Well, Nuju was a novice Toa at the time, and might not be able to (or even consider) that he could go all Frozone with his ice. That, or since this was a mission to prove himself as a worthy Toa for Dume, he wouldn't want to risk looking like a dolt by accidentally spinning himself around in a giant hamster ball of ice. :P 

Also, we do have one issue still. Do we know that Pohatu could actually lift himself this way in air? In water is not necessarily the same thing, as many things that are bouyant in water are not in air (most). Maybe it's still a weaker effect, weak enough not to work in air?

Wouldn't the pressure counteract the stone's extra buoyancy as it rises, though? I'm not a physics major by any means, but pulling an object through water feels heavier than in air. Lifting is a bit easier perhaps, but lifting quickly still feels a bit "bogged down". 

Hewkii was capable of creating a stone fist to punch Vezon/Kardas in the face

But that was a small effect, and we know there's a limit to how much they can make at a time. This was described as a mountain of rock (on BS01 anyways). To lift that, I'd expect it would take a while.

Well, we are talking of the Toa who set a timed charge to level the Dark Hunter fortress without using much time or power to do it. We have no idea where a Nuva's power increase ends (strength, capacity, etc), so I can only guess that the usage of the word "master" in the quote does indeed refer to something an average Toa would have trouble doing.

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#69 Offline Torchflare1234

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 03:31 AM

There was a sensation of movement, and the Matoran felt a little dizzy for a moment. Then he realized what was happening. He, Pohatu, and all the rock that surrounded them were rising.

Photok started moving up, without understanding how, and had to figure out a cause. (The next sentence I left out identifies the cause, apparently, as the rock lifting them.) If he was using his own jetpack he would have to activate it himself intentionally.

 

Although... I suppoooooose, the rock would lift Photok by my reasoning, so I suppose it could still be explained consistently if Pohatu alone was using his jetpack. I dunno...

[color=#b22222;]Except Pohatu wasn't alone. And any attempt to fly would either take too long or expose Pohatu and Photok to the mutatagenic swamp water.[/color]

 

Climbing does not needlessly expend any EE, that is one explanation. I imagine that lifting yourself on a platform would feel somewhat like when I try to make a "thruster platform" in Garry's moderator: Sure, it easy to stick some propulsion on the thing, but actually balancing the thruster power and yourself so that the thing doesn't flip you off in mid-air is easier said than done. Consciously focusing on levitating would simply not be as smooth as the more subconscious flight mask usage or simple climbing.

That makes a ton of sense, yeah.

 

But what about when they were in a hurry, like seeking the Great Disks while Morby was causing chaos by the second? Nuju physically climbed to his, but a platform or the like could have been safer. The balance thing could be fixed by a sphere with some sighting/breathing holes in it, like a whiffle ball.

 

Admittedly, the power drain logic still makes sense there, though. And we know they drained all the way in the fight with Morby, so it did matter there. I dunno. Maybe he didn't climb all the way but went to the nearest window, too.

[color=#b22222;]Technically speaking, Nuju slid and fell off a roof and grabbed an icicle that contained his Great Disk, no real climbing involved. Also, Nuju's first attempt to use an ice slide had failed miserably and instead he relied on jumping from the rooftops and making use of his crystal spikes during his search for the Ko-Metru Great Disk, not to mention that he and Whenua had to remain mindful of the Keerakh lurking in the area. A floating whiffle ball of ice would be way out of his league for a brand new Toa of Ice, especially under those conditions.[/color]

 

Also, we do have one issue still. Do we know that Pohatu could actually lift himself this way in air? In water is not necessarily the same thing, as many things that are bouyant in water are not in air (most). Maybe it's still a weaker effect, weak enough not to work in air?

[color=#b22222;] "The Toa felt the slightest decrease in resistance to their movement, which told him they were out of the water and back in the air." If anything, it is easier in the air.[/color]

 

Hewkii was capable of creating a stone fist to punch Vezon/Kardas in the face

But that was a small effect, and we know there's a limit to how much they can make at a time. This was described as a mountain of rock (on BS01 anyways). To lift that, I'd expect it would take a while.

 

Then again, we don't know how much of the rock Pohatu fused. In fact come to think of it, it's quite possible only a small spheroid was actually being lifted and a pillar was being made by rearranging the other rock around it, with no new rock being made from EE at all. :shrugs:

[color=#b22222;]Only Photok, Pohatu, and the fused rock surrounding them were rising. The book makes no mention of a pillar of rock or anything like one and I would imagine it is easier and quicker to mentally lift just one big, hollow rock than move bunch of smaller rocks at the same time.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(178,34,34);]I won't say Pohatu can fly this way, cause he wouldn't be flying, the rock would be flying, Pohatu would just be riding it. The same way you're riding in an airplane, but the airplane is the one actually flying. And flight is what we're talking about here. [/color]

 

[color=rgb(178,34,34);]How about we just call it a limited form of flight?[/color]


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#70 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 03:38 AM

Te problem Is with that theory is that it's unexplainable in physics and it was never used again
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#71 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 06:57 AM

The physics analogy we have used so far ("it's like standing on a board and trying to lift yourself with your own hands") doesn't say anything about how EE would act. Telekinetic powers cannot lift the user, we know that. Whether you can still lift something else with elemental manipulation and stand on it is something I would personally think possible; but it doesn't matter to me either way. It would just be nice to have confirmation one way or the other.
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#72 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 02:30 PM

Yeah, maybe flight by these means spends more EE than normal telekinesis of their elements does? Maybe it sort of shoots EE downwards from the element, unmaterialized. That might explain it physics-wise.

 

A minimum size limit might work too. Maybe the solid element has to be larger than the Toa? That would be a difference between an Iron Toa's armor and this massive "mountain of rock".

 

 

Well, Nuju was a novice Toa at the time, and might not be able to (or even consider) that he could go all Frozone with his ice. That, or since this was a mission to prove himself as a worthy Toa for Dume, he wouldn't want to risk looking like a dolt by accidentally spinning himself around in a giant hamster ball of ice. :P

Except they've never heard of hamster balls. :P Somehow I doubt he would feel that the real Dume would have such a reaction to that, and they hadn't yet faced Dumakuta.

 

 

Wouldn't the pressure counteract the stone's extra buoyancy as it rises, though? I'm not a physics major by any means, but pulling an object through water feels heavier than in air. Lifting is a bit easier perhaps, but lifting quickly still feels a bit "bogged down".

Well, yes, if he wasn't using water bouyancy, as I was wondering. It seems not, though, re: Torchflare's post.

 

 

 

 

he and Whenua had to remain mindful of the Keerakh lurking in the area. A floating whiffle ball of ice would be way out of his league for a brand new Toa of Ice, especially under those conditions.

 

Good point. In that circumstance. What about Onewa? Were there ever any times we can think of when flight would have been more efficient for him?What about Pohatu previously, or Hewkii? etc. There's a lot more story than just that example to consider if suddenly solid elements can fly.

 

Keep in mind the answer I'm hoping for is that either only very experienced, or only Toa Nuva can do it, so I'm not saying we're stuck with an inconsistency, but methinks it needs some thinking out due to Greg's answers seeming to contradict it.

 

 

Except Pohatu wasn't alone. And any attempt to fly would either take too long or expose Pohatu and Photok to the mutatagenic swamp water.

Not sure I follow you here, but maybe you misunderstood me. I was saying, Pohatu could be flying with his jetpack, while elementally lifting the airtight sphere of stone around him. And Photok, standing on the floor of this flying room, would be lifted by Pohatu's power. We know that telekinesis can lift others; his not being alone was in fact my point. :) It's the self that is the problem, re: Greg's answers on telekinesis itself and on elemental self-telekinesis in the case of Toa of Iron.

 

 

Technically speaking, Nuju slid and fell off a roof and grabbed an icicle that contained his Great Disk, no real climbing involved.

Hm... I seem to remember in LoMN's flashback to that moment he climbed to where it was encased in the ice on the outside wall of a Knowledge Tower. Maybe a multi-source inconsistency though. Either way, he'd still have to climb/fly down. :P

 

 

Only Photok, Pohatu, and the fused rock surrounding them were rising. The book makes no mention of a pillar of rock or anything like one and I would imagine it is easier and quicker to mentally lift just one big, hollow rock than move bunch of smaller rocks at the same time.

The problem is, it should, then, also be easier for a Toa of Iron to lift themselves simply by telekinetically controlling their metal armor. But Greg said no, they can't.

 

 

 

I won't say Pohatu can fly this way, cause he wouldn't be flying, the rock would be flying, Pohatu would just be riding it. The same way you're riding in an airplane, but the airplane is the one actually flying. And flight is what we're talking about here.

Let's not mince words. He's flying. (If the apparent meaning is accurate.) You're just talking about the method of flying, but all other flying Toa are using a method too. A bird flies with wings, just as a human flies with wings -- just not built-in wings.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 16 2012 - 02:41 PM.

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#73 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 04:51 PM

Technically speaking, Nuju slid and fell off a roof and grabbed an icicle that contained his Great Disk, no real climbing involved.

Hm... I seem to remember in LoMN's flashback to that moment he climbed to where it was encased in the ice on the outside wall of a Knowledge Tower. Maybe a multi-source inconsistency though. Either way, he'd still have to climb/fly down. :P

I just went to watch that part of the movie, however short it was. We see Onewa already on top of a giant stone pillar, he falls off it with nothing to grab alongside the disk. He uses none of his powers to stop it collapsing on top of him either. Either it was inexperience, or he simply didn't have time to react. It seemed like the latter. Nuju is right after him, already in free-fall when the clip starts. He rams his spikes into the side of the ice pillar (which should have torn his arm off, but no matter :P) and conveniently finds the disk frozen next to his face.The movie scenes, especially with their low usage of elemental powers overall, clearly don't give us any details. I don't have the books, so I can't quote any scenes from them myself. It'd be interesting to see any situations where an elemental "hover-board" could have been useful.

Only Photok, Pohatu, and the fused rock surrounding them were rising. The book makes no mention of a pillar of rock or anything like one and I would imagine it is easier and quicker to mentally lift just one big, hollow rock than move bunch of smaller rocks at the same time.

The problem is, it should, then, also be easier for a Toa of Iron to lift themselves simply by telekinetically controlling their metal armor. But Greg said no, they can't.

 But can they lift a board made of metal? Wings made of metal? Toa of Stone don't wear rock armor; if they did we'd have another source to compare with. 

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#74 Offline Torchflare1234

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Posted Dec 18 2012 - 12:51 AM

Yeah, maybe flight by these means spends more EE than normal telekinesis of their elements does? Maybe it sort of shoots EE downwards from the element, unmaterialized. That might explain it physics-wise.

 

[color=#b22222;]Think less real-life physics and more comic book physics.The pull of gravity is fought by the Toa's mental control of the element, simple as that.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]he and Whenua had to remain mindful of the Keerakh lurking in the area. A floating whiffle ball of ice would be way out of his league for a brand new Toa of Ice, especially under those conditions.[/color]

Good point. In that circumstance. What about Onewa? Were there ever any times we can think of when flight would have been more efficient for him?  

 

As I recall, most of Onewa's time as a Toa Metru was spent in Metru Nui which is full of tall buildings and other structures he could more easily swing from (like Spider-Man) or he was underground. The only time I can think of would be during the Toa Metru's search of the Island of Mata Nui, but then again, we dont know for certain how he got around on the island.  :shrugs:

What about Pohatu previously, or Hewkii? etc. There's a lot more story than just that example to consider if suddenly solid elements can fly.

 

Keep in mind the answer I'm hoping for is that either only very experienced, or only Toa Nuva can do it, so I'm not saying we're stuck with an inconsistency, but methinks it needs some thinking out due to Greg's answers seeming to contradict it.

 

[color=#b22222;]I'm honestly against Nuva "powers", especially when it comes to elemental control. I believe any Toa could do it, but not without practice, and it would definitely be easier for a more experienced Toa. And as for Greg's answer, you found no quote that explicitly shoots down the flying elemental surfboard theory. [/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]Except Pohatu wasn't alone. And any attempt to fly would either take too long or expose Pohatu and Photok to the mutatagenic swamp water.[/color]

Not sure I follow you here, but maybe you misunderstood me. I was saying, Pohatu could be flying with his jetpack, while elementally lifting the airtight sphere of stone around him. And Photok, standing on the floor of this flying room, would be lifted by Pohatu's power. We know that telekinesis can lift others; his not being alone was in fact my point. :) It's the self that is the problem, re: Greg's answers on telekinesis itself and on elemental self-telekinesis in the case of Toa of Iron.

 

 

[color=#b22222;]Looking it over again, I did misunderstand you. Regardless, Pohatu would still be inside the stone and levitating it and himself by extension.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]I'm not a fan of Greg's answer on self-telekinetic flight. However, let's not assume that a Toa of Iron lifting himself via a metal platform is the same as lifting himself by his armor.[/color]

[color=#b22222;]Technically speaking, Nuju slid and fell off a roof and grabbed an icicle that contained his Great Disk, no real climbing involved.[/color]

 Either way, he'd still have to climb/fly down. :P

 

[color=#b22222;]Which we never saw and thus have no way of being certain of how he got down.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]I would imagine it is easier and quicker to mentally lift just one big, hollow rock than move bunch of smaller rocks at the same time.[/color]

The problem is, it should, then, also be easier for a Toa of Iron to lift themselves simply by telekinetically controlling their metal armor. But Greg said no, they can't.

 

[color=#b22222;]You're talking about controlling every piece of armor on a Toa's body versus a single piece of metal he's standing on? I'm not saying he couldn't, but not as easily as the single piece of metal.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]I won't say Pohatu can fly this way, cause he wouldn't be flying, the rock would be flying, Pohatu would just be riding it. The same way you're riding in an airplane, but the airplane is the one actually flying. And flight is what we're talking about here.[/color]

Let's not mince words. He's flying. (If the apparent meaning is accurate.) You're just talking about the method of flying, but all other flying Toa are using a method too. A bird flies with wings, just as a human flies with wings -- just not built-in wings.

 

[color=#b22222;]Well, yeah. But this method allows even a Toa of Iron to achieve flight without contradicting Greg's answer.[/color]


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#75 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 18 2012 - 01:37 AM

You're talking about controlling every piece of armor on a Toa's body versus a single piece of metal he's standing on? I'm not saying he couldn't, but not as easily as the single piece of metal.

That's an extremely good point. If Greg gave the nod to that as the explanation this would all be resolved easily, with the possible exception of it still seeming odd that Toa don't use platform flight all the time. Add to this -- maybe elemental control of your own body is physically dangerous to yourself; if your control slips a little you might accidentally decapitate yourself.

 

Which would not apply to a Toa of Magnetism or Gravity, who are not directly controlling their metal.

 

That's a promising line of reasoning...

 

Of course, neither should we just assume this means all Toa of Iron can fly by platform/whiffle-ball/etc. or even any unless Greg gives an official answer. :shrugs:

 

 

 

 

Think less real-life physics and more comic book physics.The pull of gravity is fought by the Toa's mental control of the element, simple as that.

It's more "Bionicle physics". Comic-book can mean a lot of different things depending on the story world in that book, and Bionicle is not really limited to comics anyways. There is some fictional physics, with a base of Earth physics. And basic gravity and kinetics always apply in Bionicle, so if something overcomes them, it is, as Greg said, science not understood yet (unless it's understood lol), not just nonsense magic.

 

That doesn't mean we should expect Greg to give an official explanation of the physics nitty-gritty like that example I gave (on some things it's not his style, though it's hard to predict any pattern to that as it's basically following his preferences as to what he wants to bother explaining and what he doesn't), but my point there is that there is at least one imaginable theory that enables platform flight to be believable, which is a good thing if you are pro-platform-flight. :P

 

Also, as I pointed out in ancient times in my "Wacky Physics" topic, it's a misconception that any "fictional" physics are not possible within real-world physics, within reason. In almost all cases they could work, but often not within our technological means by a long shot; we tend to confuse the specific possibilities in "physics machinery" like real molecules with "laws of physics", which really are much more basic and flexible things. Build a very different "machine" out of those base laws, and very different powers can be enabled.

 

Specifically: that is not an explanation of how it works, so not simple as that; mental control is an explanation of how they guide the process, not what the process is or whether that process is even possible to begin with. And incidentally nearly everything intelligent beings do can technically be described that way. :P Lift a weight with your arm, and you are fighting the pull of gravity by your mental control of the weight (left unstated is how; by neural control of your arm in that case).

 

Anywho. Pet peeve and suchnot. :D


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 18 2012 - 01:41 AM.

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#76 Offline Torchflare1234

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Posted Dec 18 2012 - 11:27 PM

 

[color=#b22222;]You're talking about controlling every piece of armor on a Toa's body versus a single piece of metal he's standing on? I'm not saying he couldn't, but not as easily as the single piece of metal.[/color]

That's an extremely good point. If Greg gave the nod to that as the explanation this would all be resolved easily, with the possible exception of it still seeming odd that Toa don't use platform flight all the time. Add to this -- maybe elemental control of your own body is physically dangerous to yourself; if your control slips a little you might accidentally decapitate yourself.

 

[color=#b22222;]Platform flight may not be the most practical method for getting around. A flying boulder would be a pretty big target for enemies, and getting sucker-punched in the air is the last thing I would want.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(178,34,34);]The only problem with directly elementally controlling yourself being dangerous is still saying that it can be done although with the risk for self-injury. That's a better reasoning as to why they don't, rather than as to why they can't. [/color]

 

Which would not apply to a Toa of Magnetism or Gravity, who are not directly controlling their metal.

 

That's a promising line of reasoning...

 

[color=#b22222;]Then it begs the question, does it matter whether their control is direct or indirect? Or is there something exclusive to Toa of Iron that prevents them from directly controlling the metal on them? Which would still allow them to manipulate their armor, an idea I love, but the Toa has to remove the armor first.[/color]

 

Of course, neither should we just assume this means all Toa of Iron can fly by platform/whiffle-ball/etc. or even any unless Greg gives an official answer. :shrugs:

 

[color=#b22222;]Naturally. Isn't that always the case?[/color]

 

Think less real-life physics and more comic book physics.The pull of gravity is fought by the Toa's mental control of the element, simple as that.

It's more "Bionicle physics". Comic-book can mean a lot of different things depending on the story world in that book, and Bionicle is not really limited to comics anyways. There is some fictional physics, with a base of Earth physics. And basic gravity and kinetics always apply in Bionicle, so if something overcomes them, it is, as Greg said, science not understood yet (unless it's understood lol), not just nonsense magic.

 

[color=#b22222;]The "story world" would be Bionicle, of course. Fictional science by any other name, whether you call it magic, energon, protodermis, or some other "unknown" technology is still fictional, it just has to be believable enough to be accepted by the audience. Earth physics need not apply.[/color]

 

That doesn't mean we should expect Greg to give an official explanation of the physics nitty-gritty like that example I gave (on some things it's not his style, though it's hard to predict any pattern to that as it's basically following his preferences as to what he wants to bother explaining and what he doesn't), but my point there is that there is at least one imaginable theory that enables platform flight to be believable, which is a good thing if you are pro-platform-flight. :P

 

[color=rgb(178,34,34);]Why leave the energy unmaterialized? [/color][color=rgb(178,34,34);]Why not create just a pillar of said element and move it along the ground? Who says Toa even have the [/color][color=rgb(178,34,34);]ability to leave EE unmaterialized?[/color][color=rgb(178,34,34);] I don't think your theory would work. It relies too mu[/color][color=rgb(178,34,34);]ch on details that haven't been said to be true or capable.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]Bionicle is a fictional story with fictional physics where the only true rule is what Greg says can and can't be done.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]My theory about flight achieved through the Toa's element-specific telekinetic power, the psychic manipulation of the physical, is both believable story-wise and true. It's a power we know the Toa have, we know they're capable of levitating their elements through this power, and there is a in-story example of it being achieved.[/color]

 

Also, as I pointed out in ancient times in my "Wacky Physics" topic, it's a misconception that any "fictional" physics are not possible within real-world physics, within reason. In almost all cases they could work, but often not within our technological means by a long shot; we tend to confuse the specific possibilities in "physics machinery" like real molecules with "laws of physics", which really are much more basic and flexible things. Build a very different "machine" out of those base laws, and very different powers can be enabled.

 

Specifically: that is not an explanation of how it works, so not simple as that; mental control is an explanation of how they guide the process, not what the process is or whether that process is even possible to begin with. And incidentally nearly everything intelligent beings do can technically be described that way. :P Lift a weight with your arm, and you are fighting the pull of gravity by your mental control of the weight (left unstated is how; by neural control of your arm in that case).

 

[color=#b22222;]Shall we then try to explain how the power of telekinesis (both element-specific and non-specific) works or just accept that it does?[/color]


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#77 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 19 2012 - 01:27 AM

That's a better reasoning as to why they don't, rather than as to why they can't.

Except that the GBs programmed the elemental powers and could have included a special limit for safety reasons. :)

 

Then it begs the question, does it matter whether their control is direct or indirect? Or is there something exclusive to Toa of Iron that prevents them from directly controlling the metal on them? Which would still allow them to manipulate their armor, an idea I love, but the Toa has to remove the armor first.

Hm... It seems reasonable to me that they might be able to minimally reshape their own armor while on them; that's not the same thing as telekinetically lifting it, but could be wrong. It wouldn't be nearly as complicated IMO if they're just focusing on one part at a time, and it could have obvious benefits if the armor gets damaged.

 

That said, maybe they would have to just create new metal as a patch, and do proper repairs later by removing it. Dunno what to think about that.

 

 

it just has to be believable enough to be accepted by the audience

Bingo. :P

 

 

Why leave the energy unmaterialized? Why not create just a pillar of said element and move it along the ground?

Well, that's certainly possible, but not sure why you bring it up, 'cuz we're just discussing whether it's possible and how, not whether it's practical (in this part anyways :P). I'm saying that if it expends more EE downwards, converting it to basic kinetic energy, it stops being a closed system and self-flight could then logically work. Basically like a rocket, in terms of the physics of it. Versus a hand lifting from a foot base.

 

 

Who says Toa even have the ability to leave EE unmaterialized?

Well, technically what I'm talking about is converting the EE into kinetic energy, so that it is no longer available to turn into its element. This is done anyways to some extent with normal telekinesis of elements. Anywho, the math of it doesn't NEED to be more, and likely that detail is not something Greg would bother including one way or the other (unless he agrees adding a cost to self-flight is wise to avoid being overpowered and help explain its apparent rarity). But it would get around the "invisible arm" analogy. The analogy would be more like a hovercraft.

 

Also, Toa have the ability to charge objects up with EE, and command it to trigger later. So technically they can leave EE unmaterialized for a while, but that's not really what I meant; I just meant that it wouldn't be like a rocket blasting physical stones downward. :P

 

 

It relies too much on details that haven't been said to be true or capable.

It's actually just basic Newtonian physics, which have always been shown true in Bionicle. :) If you defy gravity, there's something physics-wise enabling it; it's not "just magic." The something isn't always defined by Greg, but it's reasonable to theorize among fans to help show how things could be plausible, to aid believability and thus enjoyment. :)

 

Bionicle is a fictional story with fictional physics where the only true rule is what Greg says can and can't be done.

You're kinda overthinking this. :P Trying to figure out what Greg meant is basically what we're talking about here.

 

My theory about flight achieved through the Toa's element-specific telekinetic power, the psychic manipulation of the physical, is both believable story-wise and true. It's a power we know the Toa have, we know they're capable of levitating their elements through this power, and there is a in-story example of it being achieved.

Yes, but that doesn't actually explain it. All I'm saying. I'm saying all of that, but also how it might work. Bottom line -- IMO it would be wise for Greg to say that elemental platform self-flight costs a bit more EE than normal element telekinesis, but if he doesn't, that's fine too. Either way, we do know that manipulation of existing elements without making more does spend some EE, so my reasoning is sound regardless.

 

 

Shall we then try to explain how the power of telekinesis (both element-specific and non-specific) works or just accept that it does?

Oh, explain, definitely! Way more fun. ^_^

 

There's the invisible arm of energy analogy that we've been discussing here; this is the running popular theory for the Kanohi Matatu and Psionics telekinesis, because it helps explain easily why neither can lift themselves. However, the same theory has been applied to elemental self-kinesis until now, so maybe it needs rethunk?

 

Kinetic rocket lift is basically my proposal for an alternate theory, considering it seems undeniable that the Pohatu 2008 example was meant as platform self-flight (unless Greg just felt the jetpack didn't need mentioned or something), to help visualize how it could work for those that have issues with the idea.

 

Of course (having had this same conversation with various people throughout the years ;)), some people don't apparently have the personal preference to explain physics (though they do somewhat, and I must admit it always puzzles me why they seem to arbitrarily stop partway through, and guessing where that personal limit will be is tricky... so it's basically easier just not to have any). If that's the case for you, that's fine, but my official judgment has been and always will be that full discussion of such theories is allowed in this forum for those that wish to engage in it. (If for no other reason than that discouraging discussion is obviously unwise.)

 

In short, fun is the whole point of Bionicle, so "no limits maaaan!" :P Okay, aside from BZP rules lol.

 

 

You know, it always has puzzled me too why some seem to have an aversion to discussing even the most basic physics (like kinetic action-reaction; so basic you use it everyday in everything you do) in relation to a storyline that is chock full of physics. Toa are always using physics to solve problems. I get that Greg has to put a limit on how detailed it can get in the actual story due to the target age group, but that does not apply here.

 

Pardon if I have misunderstood you though.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 19 2012 - 01:32 AM.

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#78 Offline Torchflare1234

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Posted Dec 19 2012 - 01:47 PM

[color=rgb(178,34,34);]Who says Toa even have the ability to leave EE unmaterialized?[/color]

Well, technically what I'm talking about is converting the EE into kinetic energy, so that it is no longer available to turn into its element. This is done anyways to some extent with normal telekinesis of elements. Anywho, the math of it doesn't NEED to be more, and likely that detail is not something Greg would bother including one way or the other (unless he agrees adding a cost to self-flight is wise to avoid being overpowered and help explain its apparent rarity). But it would get around the "invisible arm" analogy. The analogy would be more like a hovercraft.

 

Also, Toa have the ability to charge objects up with EE, and command it to trigger later. So technically they can leave EE unmaterialized for a while, but that's not really what I meant; I just meant that it wouldn't be like a rocket blasting physical stones downward. :P

 

[color=#b22222;]And that's where my confusion came in, I didn't realize the EE was being converted to kinetic energy. To call it EE was misleading to me, when I think of EE being used, I think of element creation. I was ignorant of EE's role in the manipulation aspect.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]It relies too much on details that haven't been said to be true or capable.[/color]

It's actually just basic Newtonian physics, which have always been shown true in Bionicle. :) If you defy gravity, there's something physics-wise enabling it; it's not "just magic." The something isn't always defined by Greg, but it's reasonable to theorize among fans to help show how things could be plausible, to aid believability and thus enjoyment. :)

 

[color=#b22222;]Point taken. [/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]Bionicle is a fictional story with fictional physics where the only true rule is what Greg says can and can't be done.[/color]

You're kinda overthinking this. :P Trying to figure out what Greg meant is basically what we're talking about here.

 

 

[color=#b22222;]Please, tell me something I don't know.  ;) I'll rewrite a sentence four or five times, sometimes deleting entire paragraphs before I make a post. Normally, just to wind up finding my foot in my mouth.[/color]  :headbonk: [color=#b22222;]Awesome emoticon, it's so perfect for the moment, I just had to use it.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]My theory about flight achieved through the Toa's element-specific telekinetic power, the psychic manipulation of the physical, is both believable story-wise and true. It's a power we know the Toa have, we know they're capable of levitating their elements through this power, and there is a in-story example of it being achieved.[/color]

Yes, but that doesn't actually explain it. All I'm saying. I'm saying all of that, but also how it might work. Bottom line -- IMO it would be wise for Greg to say that elemental platform self-flight costs a bit more EE than normal element telekinesis, but if he doesn't, that's fine too. Either way, we do know that manipulation of existing elements without making more does spend some EE, so my reasoning is sound regardless.

 

[color=#b22222;]And that is what I didn't understand. I had forgotten that when the Toa Nuva lost their EE, that they lost their ability to manipulate their element, thus EE is needed for manipulation.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]Shall we then try to explain how the power of telekinesis (both element-specific and non-specific) works or just accept that it does?[/color]

Oh, explain, definitely! Way more fun. ^_^

 

There's the invisible arm of energy analogy that we've been discussing here; this is the running popular theory for the Kanohi Matatu and Psionics telekinesis, because it helps explain easily why neither can lift themselves. However, the same theory has been applied to elemental self-kinesis until now, so maybe it needs rethunk?

 

[color=#b22222;]How does this sound, the telekinetic imbues a physical object with kinetic energy and controls the direction of this energy with his or her mind? [/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]Is the inablilty of direct self-telekinetic flight limited to Toa and users of the Kanohi Matatu or does it apply to every telekinetic? If it's exclusive to the Toa and Kanohi Matatu users, perhaps the Great Beings designed it that way for similar reasons it is not possible for Toa of Iron. [/color][color=rgb(178,34,34);]If self-telekinesis is incapable of being done by any telekinetic, then the "invisible arm" analogy works fine for me.[/color]

 

Of course (having had this same conversation with various people throughout the years ;)), some people don't apparently have the personal preference to explain physics (though they do somewhat, and I must admit it always puzzles me why they seem to arbitrarily stop partway through, and guessing where that personal limit will be is tricky... so it's basically easier just not to have any). If that's the case for you, that's fine, but my official judgment has been and always will be that full discussion of such theories is allowed in this forum for those that wish to engage in it. (If for no other reason than that discouraging discussion is obviously unwise.)

 

[color=#b22222;]Considering that BZPower is probably the only place I know where people even consider talking like this, I'm really not surprised. Most people I know don't have the attention span or the patience to engage in these kind of lengthy discussions. I'm enjoying it, it's quite refreshing.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]Your understanding and knowledge of the physics involved obviously surpasses mine, which is rudimentary at its best, and to compensate I simplified it to fit my understanding at the time. So the more or better I understand the less confused/confusing I'll be.[/color]

 

You know, it always has puzzled me too why some seem to have an aversion to discussing even the most basic physics (like kinetic action-reaction; so basic you use it everyday in everything you do) in relation to a storyline that is chock full of physics. Toa are always using physics to solve problems. I get that Greg has to put a limit on how detailed it can get in the actual story due to the target age group, but that does not apply here.

 

[color=#b22222;]Most don't like to talk about things beyond their knowledge or understanding, myself included. I, at least, like to give it a try, whether I look like fool for doing so or not.[/color]

 

[color=#b22222;](Waits for foot to land in mouth.)[/color]


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There comes a point when we have to ask ourselves a very simple question, "Why?"Posted Image

Man, I've been on this site for like six years and only have 500+ posts,

being the strong, silent type really doesn't work well online.


#79 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 20 2012 - 12:25 AM

Is the inablilty of direct self-telekinetic flight limited to Toa and users of the Kanohi Matatu or does it apply to every telekinetic?

Well, my theory has been that powers like Flight and Levitation may be the same basic thing but without a GB limit. With telekinesis, the arm analogy can work in this case if it's used as a handstand, and there would simply be a rule against that in normal telekinesis. But the same basic rule can work if it's creating kinetic energy, so the arm analogy might not be correct. :shrugs:

 

Or it's possible different powers work in different ways even though they do similar things; after all protodermis allows an infinite range of powers.

 

 

How does this sound, the telekinetic imbues a physical object with kinetic energy and controls the direction of this energy with his or her mind?

I think it's very reasonable. :) And then (to run with this as a universal theory of telekinetics, for sake of discussion anyways), the Matatu and Psionics telekinesis does this directly (presumably the Matatu actually uses Psionics EE to transfer it across the distance between the mask/mind and target), while other elemental controls do it with a specific limit on the type of substance.

 

Since those limits had to be programmed for the elements anyways, it does show that programmed limits can apply to powers. Although it seems unlikely the GBs personally programmed every one of the non-elemental powers that are in existence, due to the infinite range of mixtures, it's still possible for programming of sorts to handle that (I've posted a more detailed version of how that works in creating mixtures in a predictable rather than random way before, tying in with my cyberclay theory). Basically automatically.

 

So, any limits on telekinesis can then be explained away purely as a code limit, rather than a physics problem. Seems like the best solution.

 

Of course, that alone still doesn't pin down what all limits might be. Maybe the next thing to do would be to figure out how exactly to phrase such a complex question in concise enough terms that Greg would even want to bother with it lol.


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#80 Offline Torchflare1234

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Posted Dec 20 2012 - 11:02 PM

So, any limits on telekinesis can then be explained away purely as a code limit, rather than a physics problem. Seems like the best solution.

[color=#b22222;]I think we'll find that most powers won't be a physics problem where protdermis is involved. At least, a problem we could answer with absolute certainty. The only one who could give us a solid answer is Greg. [/color]

 

[color=#b22222;]I, however, still believe that platform flight is achievable to every telekinetic capable of manipulating solid matter. Toa with energy based elements (with the exception of gravity and magnetism) would probably require a tool like Vakama's jet pack to fly. Air we know has flight as a capability, water is the only one I'm still questioning.[/color]

 

 

 

[color=rgb(178,34,34);]Not that it's necessarily important, just something of interest, [/color][color=#b22222;]I was looking through [/color][color=#b22222;]here[/color][color=#b22222;], your first reference source, and found this.[/color]

 

19) Is a Toa of Lightning capable of flight?

19) No


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There comes a point when we have to ask ourselves a very simple question, "Why?"Posted Image

Man, I've been on this site for like six years and only have 500+ posts,

being the strong, silent type really doesn't work well online.





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