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Ramifications of Velika being a GB


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#1 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:18 PM

Not sure how new this revelation is as I've been MIA from the bionicle community for a solid 2 years but doesnt that revelation bring up some interesting plot holes?

 

For example i was thinking couldn't he have single-handedly done away with the Priraka and led the Inika to the Mask of Light? Couldn't he have dealt with the Barraki and other members of the pit that were causing trouble? Or done something about Teridax? I'm not quite sure how powerful he was but i'm sure he could have done certain things to help rather than sit back and basically enjoy the show. Especially considering the main point of Mata Nui was to help the GBs restore Spherus Magna.

 

Also not sure if this stuff was already talked about somewhere and i'm just making a dupe topic sorry if I am.


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#2 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:22 PM

Not sure how new this revelation is as I've been MIA from the bionicle community for a solid 2 years but doesnt that revelation bring up some interesting plot holes?

 

For example i was thinking couldn't he have single-handedly done away with the Priraka and led the Inika to the Mask of Light? Couldn't he have dealt with the Barraki and other members of the pit that were causing trouble? Or done something about Teridax? I'm not quite sure how powerful he was but i'm sure he could have done certain things to help rather than sit back and basically enjoy the show. Especially considering the main point of Mata Nui was to help the GBs restore Spherus Magna.

 

Also not sure if this stuff was already talked about somewhere and i'm just making a dupe topic sorry if I am.

It's possible Velika's powers were limited in his Matoran form, so he couldn't have done much either way. He did what he could, providing the Toa Inika with weapons and wisdom.

 

In any case, his goal was to observe, not take action, so that might explain it.


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#3 Offline Kumata

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:23 PM

1) We don't know how powerful the GBs are

 

2) He transferred his consciousness into a Matoran body, so he wouldn't have had access to any GB powers anyway

 

3) He didn't want to do any of that, the GBs aren't 'good', they're neutral. He just wanted to observe what happened in the universe he and his comrades had created.


Edited by Kumata, Dec 11 2012 - 09:31 PM.

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#4 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:39 PM

So we're sure none of his powers could've transferred with his consciousness? Also information is great power had he been able to prove he was indeed a GB (maybe difficult but probably possible) to the others he for sure would've been able to command them at least through fear (like lie to them that he was gonna call the other GBs for backup or something). Also yes he's a neutral in general but they created Mata Nui to do something for them wouldn't he have wanted it to succeed then?


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#5 Offline Kumata

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:52 PM

We know none of his powers transferred, GregF confirmed it I'm sure. Also he didn't want anybody to know he was a GB, otherwise why go to the trouble of putting his consciousness into a Matoran body just so he could blend in?


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#6 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:56 PM

Yeah but wasnt he in jeopardy of dying along with the other is MN died? Self preservation if anything should've been a goal, i'm sure he knew or at least realised what was going on and should have recognized the skakdi most likely.


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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 09:58 PM

couldn't he have single-handedly done away with the Priraka and led the Inika to the Mask of Light?

I looked into this in-depth somewhere in the revelation topic, and basically Velika's performance actually seems to "hint" at him being a GB in disguise (keeping in mind Greg likely did not decide this until more recently, though). I don't have time to find the link to my post right now, if someone else wants to that's cool; I analyzed quote after quote in detail on it.

 

The basic reason why he didn't singlehandedly interfere is that until the mission of the Great Spirit was complete, Velika needed to remain in hiding. Velika's 2006 portrayals very much fit this; he did the maximum a smart Matoran would be expected to, and basically drove the events in ways that minimized memory of his influence in others, making it seem like his ideas came from others like Garan. His riddle technique is basically how he did this, I showed. But when you look more deeply at the conversations, it's clear that nearly all the big ideas originated in his mind, as far as what drove 2006 plot.

 

So basically, he DID defeat the Piraka and helped the Inika to the Mask of Life, just in a more GB-style subtle way. :)

 

 

Couldn't he have dealt with the Barraki and other members of the pit that were causing trouble?

The Voyatoran were not involved in the 2007 plot, so not without blowing his cover. They were still up on Voya Nui. They did come inside for the blowing up of the stone cord, but there would have been no opportunity then to do anything about the Barraki. And basically, the Toa needed no further aid there; they knew what to do. Defeat whoever got the mask.

 

 

Or done something about Teridax?

The GBs had already programmed the destiny system to do something about him, probably without realizing it at the time, but he was supposed to help reform Spherus Magna. There was really nothing further that Velika could have done for that. However, he may have been subtly working behind the scenes in ways we haven't heard of to set the stage for Mata Nui's victory there, once he realized Makuta had gone haywire (in the sense of not following his programming as intended).

 

For example, some have theorized that he was responsible for the Blade Burrowers.

 

I'm not quite sure how powerful he was but i'm sure he could have done certain things to help rather than sit back and basically enjoy the show.

As as far as we have evidence for, he had no powers himself, but merely the knowledge of a GB. So it was vital that at all times he preserve his cover. If anyone were to realize he wasn't just some random Matoran he could find himself in major trouble fast with the less savory organizations or even individuals. (Possibly including the Order, heh.)

 

 

Also not sure if this stuff was already talked about somewhere and i'm just making a dupe topic sorry if I am.

It was all talked out in the revelation topic, but I don't mind having a topic specifically about the question of how it fits with old canon at this point, as it's been a while. That topic's primary purpose is to give general reactions to the news, so it's okay IMO now.

 

Actually, it was all talked out conclusively in the contest topics before Greg even announced it, in fact. :) That was why most of us had decided Velika was our most likely theory, as he fit the rules Greg gave for it the best.

 

So we're sure none of his powers could've transferred with his consciousness?

Well, we don't even know yet if GB "powers" are merely access code interfaces with their protodermic creations, like when those two GBs made the Matoran unable to see them, or when the Lifer switched off Vezon's Olmak. That could be technological, and in that case Velika could technically access them. But there may very well be limits to what they can do. For example, perhaps he could switch off enemy powers, and perhaps the "don't see me" command only works if the person to be hidden has the body of a GB.

 

If that was the case, then enemies could still hurt him the old-fashioned way. And he'd need to sleep sometime, so he couldn't necessarily switch off all powers of attackers; a surprise attack could get him.

 

So it all boils down to the same basic rule that he must take extreme care to blend in.

 

 

Also information is great power had he been able to prove he was indeed a GB (maybe difficult but probably possible) to the others he for sure would've been able to command them at least through fear

That's possible, but that would be a last resort, because he'd be blowing his cover in the process.

 

Also yes he's a neutral in general but they created Mata Nui to do something for them wouldn't he have wanted it to succeed then?

It does seem that he wanted Mata Nui to succeed, as he didn't start "cleaning house" until the mission was a success. However, he apparently broke the will of the other GBs in going into hiding in there without their knowledge, so we don't really know how much he is for and how much against. After all, he's going around killing people that he should see as good guys now (or about to, at the fortress), so there's definitely a few screws loose.

 

More importantly, we still don't know what the grand goal he is now pursuing is.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 11 2012 - 10:03 PM.

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#8 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 10:08 PM

Oh right i forgot he was kinda rogue (then again dont most GB's kinda do their own thing most of the time?) I agree with a lot of that but even for all teh powers of the Great Being looking into the future does not seem to be one of them. So without foresight of survival (unless he had some backup plan to save himself), i revealing himself could have helped wouldn't he have done that? And then maybe gotten out of MN and back to Spherus Magna?

 

I just feel like some of the pieces dont fit, maybe nto all of what i said is possible or reasonable but it just doesnt seem like he did everything he could without revealing himself (and even maybe revealed himself). I doubt most organisations would try anything on him out of fear of his possibly existent powers. Oh well i guess its up to our imaginations now.

 

PS Sorry if i seem overly aggressive or argumentative, like i said before its been a while since i last did much discussing on BZ.


Edited by Great Being #1, Dec 11 2012 - 10:12 PM.

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 10:15 PM

then again dont most GB's kinda do their own thing most of the time?

We really have no idea, but my feeling is that they tend to work well together in general, and pursue the same basic goals. Velika is the oddest we know of. Angonce had some minor disagreements, and the Lifer just made a simple blunder of touching something he wouldn't have known he shouldn't. When we saw two working together, they seemed to get along and perhaps be operating under some established heirarchy. Also there was the "panel of judges" style GBs in that one alternate dimension.

 

 

I agree with a lot of that but even for all teh powers of the Great Being looking into the future does not seem to be one of them. So without foresight of survival (unless he had some backup plan to save himself), i revealing himself could have helped wouldn't he have done that?

Not knowing the future is one of the big reasons he would have tried every other alternative first, though. Because he couldn't ever be sure that it would be safe to reveal himself.

 

 

I just feel like some of the pieces dont fit, maybe nto all of what i said is possible or reasonable but it just doesnt seem like he did everything he could without revealing himself (and even maybe revealed himself).

The mission succeeded. What more would be needed? What more would be possible, rather? Remember that every step of the major Bionicle year arcs was important to Teridax's Plan, and Velika basically had to let that play itself out to have two giant robots involved (though unwillingly on Terry's part) in the reforming. And it worked. :)


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#10 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 10:25 PM

I guess it did work out for the best (well sort of) and we wouldnt have really had much of a story had he interfered but i dunno i just cant shake the feeling that he really did the bare minimum, especially considering he seems a fairly competent killer now outside Mata Nui.

 

Also did Velika go back to his "GB" form (whatever he was like before taking over a matoran and going into MN) when he got out into Spherus Magna?


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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 10:52 PM

Well, the fact that he's going around murdering tells me that while he probably agreed with the giant robot's mission, his passion for it may very well be barely there. The whole point was to save lives on Spherus Magna, but he doesn't seem to value life for life's sake. 

 

Rather, it seems like he wants Spherus Magna intact, and the protodermic beings of his choosing alive, purely so that he can pursue his own selfish goals. (The most basic standard one, as a theory, would be that he wants to have a stable world to conquer.)

 

 

As for the form, it seems implied by the most recently posted chapter (4, I think it was?) that he's still a Po-Matoran, yeah. I forget exactly why other than the carving thing, but I seem to think he was called diminutive or something too there.


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#12 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 11:07 PM

Well then that would make it seem he also had the skills/powers he used to kill Karzahni and Tren Krom in Mata Nui right? Meaning he could've done more than what he did vs the Piraka lets say. There's no chance that Teridax somehow managed to escape the robot and take control of Velika's body and subdue his mind right? Or that Teridax somehow found out about Velika and managed to partner up with him before all this stuff? That would make for some interesting story.


Edited by Great Being #1, Dec 11 2012 - 11:07 PM.

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#13 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Dec 11 2012 - 11:24 PM

I agree with bones on most of this, but I will play devil's advocate here: in LOMN, Teridax was seen controlling the MU directly (or at least the ground, by raising huge pillars everywhere). This was later confirmed to be an entirely learned ability, and some have theorized that the simple knowledge that the MU is artificial can allow this (as in the Matrix series). Velika demonstrated no use of these powers, though he potentially could have. This is relatively easily explained away because he had no reason to do so, though.
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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 01:33 AM

Well then that would make it seem he also had the skills/powers he used to kill Karzahni and Tren Krom in Mata Nui right?

Well, I theorized early on that he may have left weapons in various places on any of the three pieces of Spherus Magna (most likely Bara or Bota) and gone back to pick them up. However, either way, it's clear that he is now comfortable risking his cover being blown in order to pursue his mysterious goal, and "clean house", whereas prior to the mission's success he was not.

 

 

Meaning he could've done more than what he did vs the Piraka lets say.

What I was trying to drive at in my first post is, well, two big points:

 

1) We do not know that he didn't do more. Just because we didn't see more portrayed in the story doesn't mean it didn't happen. Obviously we could not have been told about it until the reveal of the GB's identity, and that happened after we stopped getting more story.

 

 

2) Given that the good guys won in that year, whatever he did was obviously enough.

 

It's been said, BTW, that a good leader does exactly what is needed, and ONLY exactly what is needed, to guide events, rather than "overcorrecting." This is especially the case in dealing with psychology and people (as well as animals incidentally). Often overcorrecting will create its own problems. 

 

 

 

There's no chance that Teridax somehow managed to escape the robot and take control of Velika's body and subdue his mind right? Or that Teridax somehow found out about Velika and managed to partner up with him before all this stuff? That would make for some interesting story.

It certainly doesn't seem possible, no. Although there's always fanfics; those would be fun angles to explore. Most likely nothing like that happened, though, because Velika came in total secret even from the other GBs, and from everybody in the MU. Terry would know virtually everything there is to know about the MU from Tren Krom via Mutran, but that should be off-limits.

 

 

in LOMN, Teridax was seen controlling the MU directly (or at least the ground, by raising huge pillars everywhere). This was later confirmed to be an entirely learned ability, and some have theorized that the simple knowledge that the MU is artificial can allow this (as in the Matrix series).

Here's a nitpick: I wouldn't quite phrase it as only knowing it's artificial gives that. I think there would be more to it in understanding the specifics of its design in that case. The Matrix was a mentally-influenceable virtual system, because it was actually basically a shared dream, generated in the computers and the minds of the people tapped into it, but this is a physical machine.

 

But yeah, I agree Velika should have access to systems like that. However, I think he would be very, very, very, very dead-set on never using that knowledge prior to the Reforming.

 

Incidentally, to add on to my earlier reasoning about the riskiness of his cover being blown despite his powers, keep in mind that even if he can switch off anyone's powers, doing so removes essential components of the Great Spirit system. So Velika's self-defense could very well mess up the mission. I think he didn't dare even think about it if he could avoid it -- literally... once you decide you can't switch people's powers off, you run the risk of telepaths listening in, so I think even mentally he was purely focused on living life as a Matoran, except occasional almost subconscious feelings about it and the like.

 

And that was probably aided by his crafting of the character of Velika the Matoran. He designed his cover to use all his talents to the maximum, and even to have deep insight beyond all others by virtue (supposedly) of his investigative nature. So he was able to do the maximum he could do without risking unwanted attention, and yet to mentally seem to be just a Matoran.

 

I would go so far as to say that he probably felt a natural affinity for the lifestyle of Matoran, as an inventor, looking at maintenance workers who were designed to be inventive if necessary, and that appeal is probably what gave him the idea to go into disguise in the first place. :)

 

In other words, a big part of the reason for his seeming lack of action may simply be that he sincerely wanted to live life as just another Matoran, and did not care enough about others' lives to follow the old "with great power comes great responsibility" reasoning.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 12 2012 - 01:38 AM.

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#15 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 06:59 AM

 

Well then that would make it seem he also had the skills/powers he used to kill Karzahni and Tren Krom in Mata Nui right?

Well, I theorized early on that he may have left weapons in various places on any of the three pieces of Spherus Magna (most likely Bara or Bota) and gone back to pick them up. However, either way, it's clear that he is now comfortable risking his cover being blown in order to pursue his mysterious goal, and "clean house", whereas prior to the mission's success he was not.

 

 

Meaning he could've done more than what he did vs the Piraka lets say.

What I was trying to drive at in my first post is, well, two big points:

 

1) We do not know that he didn't do more. Just because we didn't see more portrayed in the story doesn't mean it didn't happen. Obviously we could not have been told about it until the reveal of the GB's identity, and that happened after we stopped getting more story.

 

 

2) Given that the good guys won in that year, whatever he did was obviously enough.

 

It's been said, BTW, that a good leader does exactly what is needed, and ONLY exactly what is needed, to guide events, rather than "overcorrecting." This is especially the case in dealing with psychology and people (as well as animals incidentally). Often overcorrecting will create its own problems. 

 

 

 

There's no chance that Teridax somehow managed to escape the robot and take control of Velika's body and subdue his mind right? Or that Teridax somehow found out about Velika and managed to partner up with him before all this stuff? That would make for some interesting story.

It certainly doesn't seem possible, no. Although there's always fanfics; those would be fun angles to explore. Most likely nothing like that happened, though, because Velika came in total secret even from the other GBs, and from everybody in the MU. Terry would know virtually everything there is to know about the MU from Tren Krom via Mutran, but that should be off-limits.

 

 

in LOMN, Teridax was seen controlling the MU directly (or at least the ground, by raising huge pillars everywhere). This was later confirmed to be an entirely learned ability, and some have theorized that the simple knowledge that the MU is artificial can allow this (as in the Matrix series).

Here's a nitpick: I wouldn't quite phrase it as only knowing it's artificial gives that. I think there would be more to it in understanding the specifics of its design in that case. The Matrix was a mentally-influenceable virtual system, because it was actually basically a shared dream, generated in the computers and the minds of the people tapped into it, but this is a physical machine.

 

But yeah, I agree Velika should have access to systems like that. However, I think he would be very, very, very, very dead-set on never using that knowledge prior to the Reforming.

 

Incidentally, to add on to my earlier reasoning about the riskiness of his cover being blown despite his powers, keep in mind that even if he can switch off anyone's powers, doing so removes essential components of the Great Spirit system. So Velika's self-defense could very well mess up the mission. I think he didn't dare even think about it if he could avoid it -- literally... once you decide you can't switch people's powers off, you run the risk of telepaths listening in, so I think even mentally he was purely focused on living life as a Matoran, except occasional almost subconscious feelings about it and the like.

 

And that was probably aided by his crafting of the character of Velika the Matoran. He designed his cover to use all his talents to the maximum, and even to have deep insight beyond all others by virtue (supposedly) of his investigative nature. So he was able to do the maximum he could do without risking unwanted attention, and yet to mentally seem to be just a Matoran.

 

I would go so far as to say that he probably felt a natural affinity for the lifestyle of Matoran, as an inventor, looking at maintenance workers who were designed to be inventive if necessary, and that appeal is probably what gave him the idea to go into disguise in the first place. :)

 

In other words, a big part of the reason for his seeming lack of action may simply be that he sincerely wanted to live life as just another Matoran, and did not care enough about others' lives to follow the old "with great power comes great responsibility" reasoning.

 

This is probably very true; it explains why Kongu didn't discover Velika's secret during the Voya Nui storyline.


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#16 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 12:04 PM

Yeah that all makes perfect sense and i'm sure he would've definitely had a backup plan on how to leave Mata Nui or to restore him if all else failed. Also the only reason i brought up Teridax is that the way velika is seen thinking about a "plan" is very reminiscent of Teridax and his obsession with his plan. If I was a writer i would for sure explore that angle but alas i'm a math guy so i wont :P

 

I dont know i'll probably never fully accept the fact that he seemed to do less that he could've (and yes i understand sometimes its best to do the bare minimum but he could've saved a lot of time and was probably aware of Teridax's plan and would've been able to get away from everybody once on SM and still kill everybody) but now i'm better with it.


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#17 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 03:43 PM

I agree with bones on most of this, but I will play devil's advocate here: in LOMN, Teridax was seen controlling the MU directly (or at least the ground, by raising huge pillars everywhere). This was later confirmed to be an entirely learned ability, and some have theorized that the simple knowledge that the MU is artificial can allow this (as in the Matrix series). Velika demonstrated no use of these powers, though he potentially could have. This is relatively easily explained away because he had no reason to do so, though.

[color=#808080;][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"]Ah, so my Matrix analogy from last week wasn't so far off after all! :lol:[/color][/font]

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#18 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 04:00 PM

 

I agree with bones on most of this, but I will play devil's advocate here: in LOMN, Teridax was seen controlling the MU directly (or at least the ground, by raising huge pillars everywhere). This was later confirmed to be an entirely learned ability, and some have theorized that the simple knowledge that the MU is artificial can allow this (as in the Matrix series). Velika demonstrated no use of these powers, though he potentially could have. This is relatively easily explained away because he had no reason to do so, though.

[color=#808080;][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"]Ah, so my Matrix analogy from last week wasn't so far off after all! :lol:[/color][/font]

 

 

That also came up in the topic about the nature of the GBs - the question of just how much of their powers are simply the ability to manipulate their creations.

 

The GBs had already programmed the destiny system to do something about him, probably without realizing it at the time, but he was supposed to help reform Spherus Magna. There was really nothing further that Velika could have done for that. However, he may have been subtly working behind the scenes in ways we haven't heard of to set the stage for Mata Nui's victory there, once he realized Makuta had gone haywire (in the sense of not following his programming as intended).

 

 

Maybe he knew Teridax still had to take over for the reformation to happen even though he was evil. I don't think he really needed to do anything to make sure that happened, though, and anyway he couldn't have influenced something so major and still been a passive observer. Maybe he didn't care if Mata Nui's mission was completed, and just wanted to see for himself. It would make sense for him make a little exception to his life of non-interference to help ensure Mata Nui was saved, after all the Matoran Universe was his adopted home. I just thought of an analogy (though it might be unnecessary, I'll say it anyway): you might go to a stadium to watch a sports game, but whether or not you care about which team wins, you would care if the stadium caught fire during the game.


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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 04:19 PM

 

The GBs had already programmed the destiny system to do something about him, probably without realizing it at the time, but he was supposed to help reform Spherus Magna. There was really nothing further that Velika could have done for that. However, he may have been subtly working behind the scenes in ways we haven't heard of to set the stage for Mata Nui's victory there, once he realized Makuta had gone haywire (in the sense of not following his programming as intended).

  Maybe he knew Teridax still had to take over for the reformation to happen even though he was evil. I don't think he really needed to do anything to make sure that happened, though, and anyway he couldn't have influenced something so major and still been a passive observer. Maybe he didn't care if Mata Nui's mission was completed, and just wanted to see for himself. It would make sense for him make a little exception to his life of non-interference to help ensure Mata Nui was saved, after all the Matoran Universe was his adopted home. I just thought of an analogy (though it might be unnecessary, I'll say it anyway): you might go to a stadium to watch a sports game, but whether or not you care about which team wins, you would care if the stadium caught fire during the game.

 

Or maybe the GBs, once they saw that Teridax went rogue, decided that he would have to take over to banish Mata Nui to SM so he could awaken the prototype robot. As such, Velika went along with Teridax's plan to make sure that SM was reformed.


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#20 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 09:28 PM

 

 

The GBs had already programmed the destiny system to do something about him, probably without realizing it at the time, but he was supposed to help reform Spherus Magna. There was really nothing further that Velika could have done for that. However, he may have been subtly working behind the scenes in ways we haven't heard of to set the stage for Mata Nui's victory there, once he realized Makuta had gone haywire (in the sense of not following his programming as intended).

  Maybe he knew Teridax still had to take over for the reformation to happen even though he was evil. I don't think he really needed to do anything to make sure that happened, though, and anyway he couldn't have influenced something so major and still been a passive observer. Maybe he didn't care if Mata Nui's mission was completed, and just wanted to see for himself. It would make sense for him make a little exception to his life of non-interference to help ensure Mata Nui was saved, after all the Matoran Universe was his adopted home. I just thought of an analogy (though it might be unnecessary, I'll say it anyway): you might go to a stadium to watch a sports game, but whether or not you care about which team wins, you would care if the stadium caught fire during the game.

 

Or maybe the GBs, once they saw that Teridax went rogue, decided that he would have to take over to banish Mata Nui to SM so he could awaken the prototype robot. As such, Velika went along with Teridax's plan to make sure that SM was reformed.

 

 

/////////

What makes you think the other GB's were aware of anything going on in MN? Velika sunk off into MN without the knowledge of the other GBs so i think everything was Velika's call and not that of the GBs as a group.


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#21 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 10:22 PM

 

 

 

The GBs had already programmed the destiny system to do something about him, probably without realizing it at the time, but he was supposed to help reform Spherus Magna. There was really nothing further that Velika could have done for that. However, he may have been subtly working behind the scenes in ways we haven't heard of to set the stage for Mata Nui's victory there, once he realized Makuta had gone haywire (in the sense of not following his programming as intended).

  Maybe he knew Teridax still had to take over for the reformation to happen even though he was evil. I don't think he really needed to do anything to make sure that happened, though, and anyway he couldn't have influenced something so major and still been a passive observer. Maybe he didn't care if Mata Nui's mission was completed, and just wanted to see for himself. It would make sense for him make a little exception to his life of non-interference to help ensure Mata Nui was saved, after all the Matoran Universe was his adopted home. I just thought of an analogy (though it might be unnecessary, I'll say it anyway): you might go to a stadium to watch a sports game, but whether or not you care about which team wins, you would care if the stadium caught fire during the game.

 

Or maybe the GBs, once they saw that Teridax went rogue, decided that he would have to take over to banish Mata Nui to SM so he could awaken the prototype robot. As such, Velika went along with Teridax's plan to make sure that SM was reformed.

 

 

/////////

What makes you think the other GB's were aware of anything going on in MN? Velika sunk off into MN without the knowledge of the other GBs so i think everything was Velika's call and not that of the GBs as a group.

 

----------------------------------------

 

Well, if the insane GB's powers were any indication, the GBs can sense through time and across dimensions. Or they can wander around the known universe while psionically cloaked. And they would want to know what was going on with the giant repair machine for their planet to make sure it actually worked. 

 

I agree with you that any decisions Velika made were probably his own call. But the thing is, Velika didn't try to stop Teridax's plan - in fact, he helped out the Toa Inika who unwittingly ended up aiding Teridax. It's pretty clear that Velika wanted the robot to succeed. How much he knew about the plan is anyone's guess, but I don't think he was fooled. He knew that Teridax was supposed to take command, and he knew that he had gone bad. He knew that the Great Spirit was dying, thanks to the resident Toa in town who told him. He also knew that Teridax needed the Great Spirit to be alive to take over. He might have put three and four together. 

 

We never see Velika as a member of Teridax's resistance either. The reason I gave might be why. :shrugs:  


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#22 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 10:32 PM

 

 

 

 

The GBs had already programmed the destiny system to do something about him, probably without realizing it at the time, but he was supposed to help reform Spherus Magna. There was really nothing further that Velika could have done for that. However, he may have been subtly working behind the scenes in ways we haven't heard of to set the stage for Mata Nui's victory there, once he realized Makuta had gone haywire (in the sense of not following his programming as intended).

  Maybe he knew Teridax still had to take over for the reformation to happen even though he was evil. I don't think he really needed to do anything to make sure that happened, though, and anyway he couldn't have influenced something so major and still been a passive observer. Maybe he didn't care if Mata Nui's mission was completed, and just wanted to see for himself. It would make sense for him make a little exception to his life of non-interference to help ensure Mata Nui was saved, after all the Matoran Universe was his adopted home. I just thought of an analogy (though it might be unnecessary, I'll say it anyway): you might go to a stadium to watch a sports game, but whether or not you care about which team wins, you would care if the stadium caught fire during the game.

 

Or maybe the GBs, once they saw that Teridax went rogue, decided that he would have to take over to banish Mata Nui to SM so he could awaken the prototype robot. As such, Velika went along with Teridax's plan to make sure that SM was reformed.

 

 

/////////

What makes you think the other GB's were aware of anything going on in MN? Velika sunk off into MN without the knowledge of the other GBs so i think everything was Velika's call and not that of the GBs as a group.

 

----------------------------------------

 

Well, if the insane GB's powers were any indication, the GBs can sense through time and across dimensions. Or they can wander around the known universe while psionically cloaked. And they would want to know what was going on with the giant repair machine for their planet to make sure it actually worked. 

 

I agree with you that any decisions Velika made were probably his own call. But the thing is, Velika didn't try to stop Teridax's plan - in fact, he helped out the Toa Inika who unwittingly ended up aiding Teridax. It's pretty clear that Velika wanted the robot to succeed. How much he knew about the plan is anyone's guess, but I don't think he was fooled. He knew that Teridax was supposed to take command, and he knew that he had gone bad. He knew that the Great Spirit was dying, thanks to the resident Toa in town who told him. He also knew that Teridax needed the Great Spirit to be alive to take over. He might have put three and four together. 

 

We never see Velika as a member of Teridax's resistance either. The reason I gave might be why. :shrugs:

 

 

Hmm. I never thought the GBs would actually be monitoring the robot from afar. It does make sense though, I mean scientists at NASA can't see into alternate universes but they still keep track of their space probes. :P There must have been some things they'd need to be in the MU to observe of course, or Velika wouldn't have needed to live there to satisfy his curiosity (unless he just wanted to live as a Matoran).

 

And as I said, whether or not he wanted Teridax's plan to succeed, it makes sense that he'd want the Mask of Life to be used.


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#23 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 01:26 AM

Angonce seemed to be surprised when he learned after the Reforming that the MU beings were fully sapient, so it seems like that basic development at least was unknown to them. They may have been able to sense the usage of powers, and whether a power was glitching as with Vezon's Olmak, but not necessarily the rest of what was going on.

 

You know, I wonder if Velika and Teridax were sort of having a "half-blind duel of masterminds" throughout the history of the MU. Like, Velika knew that Teridax had gone evil, or perhaps at first just that someone had, but Teridax didn't know anything about Velika. So while Teridax was working his brilliant strategies of manipulation, there was a deeper -- morally more enigmatic -- mastermind subtly manipulating him.

 

If you think about it like that, considering Teridax ended up getting himself killed, and Velika is alive and kicking (or rather killing), it puts a new light on the current storyline. A lot of people have wondered what it would be like if Teridax didn't actually die and tried a new mastermind strategy. Well, this is like someone who outsmarted Teridax and may be worse morally or at least "not good" who has now been unleashed, so it's kinda similar.


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#24 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 01:29 AM

Well, Greg said Velika inhabited the MU as a passive observer, and I don't think that could include manipulating/guiding Teridax into taking over the universe.


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#25 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 02:21 AM

Well, Greg said Velika inhabited the MU as a passive observer, and I don't think that could include manipulating/guiding Teridax into taking over the universe.

----------------------------------------------

 

Greg said that was his intent when he entered the body of the Matoran as an observer. Maybe he had a change of plans when the Matoran went sapient.

 

Note that there is some evidence for this theory - Velika apparently knew Tren Krom, enough to earn his trust. Tren Krom was the guy who passed the information to Teridax that got this whole party started. 


Edited by fishers64, Dec 13 2012 - 02:24 AM.

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#26 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 11:14 AM

So bones what you're saying is that maybe Velika actually was behind Teridax's plan and manipulated him into doing it? There's a very interesting quote in the last Powers That Be: "As time passed and things had become clear to him, he had known this time would come." It makes it seem as if his perspective and intentions had indeed changed over the course of time inside MN. I think you might be on to something bones.


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#27 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 01:33 PM

Indeed maybe you are right so Teridax wasn't the mastermind manipulator we tought he was, he was manipulated himself that could work.
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#28 Offline bohrokmaster

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 03:03 PM

Does this mean Velika and the other Great Beings are evil? Because they've found out that their creations (Toa,Turaga,Matoran,Vortixx,etc.) have gained sapiance/senteince? Now I'm worried about the true nature of the Great Beings.  :(


Edited by bohrokmaster, Dec 13 2012 - 03:04 PM.

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#29 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 03:11 PM

I'm pretty sure Angonce is a decent person and even Velika doesn't consider himself evil. I think the GBs are quite amoral but most or all of them feel responsible in some way for Spherus Magna and is people.


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#30 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 03:32 PM

I think it's a basic error to proclaim all members of a species good or evil, usually. You could make the case with the Makuta after a point but only because opposition to that movement was literally eradicated, and the few who weren't (Miserix, for example) were morally ambiguous to begin with. Even with Makuta, there's the alternate Teridax who came to the main universe, and he's good, so it's not inherent to the species.

 

Angonce is clearly a good guy. Velika is clearly a bad guy (though whether evil or just really misguided is not clear). Lifey and the Two Ignika Hiders seem to be good guys. And the others are probably good too considering Velika went into disguise without telling them, implying he's got no favor among them for his murderous ways (and it's quite possible they didn't know he was like that).

 

Speculations can be made that turn some of this on its head and paint them as somewhat evil in general, but there's no actual evidence for it.


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#31 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 03:38 PM

Yes indeed why should they otherwise do such a hard job recreating spherus magna for the agoryBTW is "lifey" that GB friend of Vezon
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#32 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 03:42 PM

Yes indeed why should they otherwise do such a hard job recreating spherus magna for the agoryBTW is "lifey" that GB friend of Vezon

Yeah. The one that touched the Mask of Life and turns everything alive, and got a "life sentence" as a result, hence "Lifer" or Lifey.


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#33 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 04:03 PM

The idea that Velika manipulated Teridax might sound cool but IMO there isn't much evidence for it. We don't know if Velika had the ability to look around the universe and see what was happening elsewhere, and even if he did initially, if he had that as a Matoran. The Toa Nuva and Inika never mentioned Teridax to the Matoran in the 2006 books, and even if they did off-screen, by that time Teridax's plan was already entering its final stages, so there isn't much that Velika could have done to affect it. Yes, he did help the Toa Nuva and Inika, but regardless of Teridax's Plan or not he would have; not doing so would have turned the Matoran and Toa against him, and the Piraka had no use for a Matoran. Also, Velika did suggest to Garan to attack the Toa Nuva when they first met (although that may have been the result of him not recognizing them in their Nuva state, but I think my general point still stands.) 

Moreso, Tren Krom could not have known that one day a Makuta named Mutran would come to his cave and then tell what he learned to Teridax, who would overthrow Miserix, take control, and set a complex plan into motion; neither could have Velika, so I don't think there was any agreement between the two for any kind of manipulation.

 

On Velika's moral state: he did seem pretty nice and kind on Voya Nui, and he did seem a little bit to sincere to simply be acting. I think it's more likely he is simply convinced that what he's doing now is for the best and is acceptable. 


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#34 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 04:37 PM

We don't know if Velika had the ability to look around the universe and see what was happening elsewhere

Oh, sure we do. We just don't know the limits of it. The whole reason he went into there Greg told us from the get-go was to observe. :)

 

That and the "things became clear" line seem to indicate to me at least that he was mentally engaged with what was happening, as GB#1 said. Now, when I say "subtle", I do mean subtle. I doubt he was doing much towards this, but just enough to make it happen, as a true mastermind does. :)

 

 

Could still be wrong though; maybe the destiny systems alone ensured it would happen and he just understood that, and had no need to do anything himself.

 

 

 

The Toa Nuva and Inika never mentioned Teridax to the Matoran in the 2006 books, and even if they did off-screen, by that time Teridax's plan was already entering its final stages, so there isn't much that Velika could have done to affect it.

Oh, I'm talking long before 2006. :) Prior to his "being sent" to Karzahni, almost certainly. I was thinking something along the lines of what fishers said.

 

 

Also, Velika did suggest to Garan to attack the Toa Nuva when they first met (although that may have been the result of him not recognizing them in their Nuva state, but I think my general point still stands.)

Well, remember I pointed out about that when I went through the books in detail on Velika, that his portrayal there uncannily fits with him knowing the Nuva were not the ones destined to get the Ignika.

 

 

Moreso, Tren Krom could not have known that one day a Makuta named Mutran would come to his cave

Unnecessary. Velika could have influenced TK to react that way, and influenced Mutran to go, without the two having any idea of it.

 

 

and then tell what he learned to Teridax, who would overthrow Miserix, take control, and set a complex plan into motion; neither could have Velika

How do you know Velika couldn't have? This sort of basic manipulation is actually not that hard; I've experimented with some of it myself to test the concept. As long as he knew Mutran was the talkative sort, and was friends with Teridax, not that hard to do.

 

I don't think he needed to know that Teridax would overthrow Miserix for sure. It would be enough to recognize Teridax as a mastermind of his class, and to know that Teridax did have a destiny to take over, so success there would be likely.

 

But on that point, note that I'm kind of just saying Velika may have aided the destiny systems, not that he did all this purely on his own.

 

 

so I don't think there was any agreement between the two for any kind of manipulation.

See, that's the thing about manipulation; you can get people to do everything you want them to do without conscious agreement or knowledge. That's the whole point of it. :P I admit in the case of TK it's a tall order, but Velika was clearly not best pals with the guy considering he was the second one he murdered on SM. And yet, TK seemed to trust him, which implies he knew him from the past.

 

 

On Velika's moral state: he did seem pretty nice and kind on Voya Nui, and he did seem a little bit to sincere to simply be acting. I think it's more likely he is simply convinced that what he's doing now is for the best and is acceptable.

I agree with this; to add a bit, note the apparent sadness he felt that the deaths of some good people were necessary at the fortress, and saw the need to make a memorial to them. And the murders of the two villains before could be seen as justifiable by some non-Toa moral systems, especially the Order (ironically since Helryx may be among his next victims).

 

 

And maybe we should keep in mind the role of the Red Star in this; as he likely knows full well what it does, though that has gotten pretty confusing as a line of theorizing lately as it's still not crystal clear who can and can't be revived on SM, if any.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 13 2012 - 04:42 PM.

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#35 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 05:37 PM

Indeed maybe you are right so Teridax wasn't the mastermind manipulator we tought he was, he was manipulated himself that could work.

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Yeah... after all, we've seen this before, with the Metru Matoran. Teridax manipulated into manipulating Lhikan...[/color][/font]

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]As [/color][color=#0000ff;]bones[/color][color=#808080;] and [/color][color=#0000ff;]Kopaka4372[/color][color=#808080;] said, I don't think Vel's gone evil; I think he probably feels like he's making tough decisions for the right cause. Hmm.[/color][/font]


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#36 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 09:13 PM

The thing is, it doesn't really make sense (at least to me :P ) that Velika would do all this manipulation to aid Teridax in taking over the Matoran Universe when it would not really be necessary. From what we've seen from Velika, he is not really an evil person, and helping an evil mastermind who would end up killing thousands just to let SM be reformed when Teridax was originally intended to take over anyways doesn't seem to fit Velika. Moreso, Teridax reforming SM was an accident; it would be a huge gamble on Velika's part, since Teridax could have simply destroyed Bara Magna and moved on.

 

Also, how would Velika have influenced Mutran and Tren Krom? From what I gather, Mutran gaining information from Tren Krom was an accident and not something Tren Krom was influenced into doing. Also, we still don't know the extent of the GBs' powers and how much Velika could do in his Matoran form. Maybe he could see what's happening all over the MU, maybe he can't, but the lack of solid evidence seems to render that speculation.

 

Also, wanted to add that I think it's possible Velika hates Karzahni and TK; the story specifically called attention to how brutal and disturbing the murders were. Either Velika is a sadist, or he has some sort of grudge against them. 


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#37 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 10:30 PM

Man i go to write an exam come back and this topic exploded for like 10 posts in a couple hours :P

 

Anyway on the subject of Velika i do not think that he is inherently evil, he just has a different (or twisted from our perspective if you want) mind most likely but then again if Annona couldnt figure out the GBs' minds how can we possibly dare to :P

 

We do not know how early Velika realized whatever he realized so he may have very well came up with a plan well before any of the rebelions then again it also could have been when he got sent to Karzahni or during the Inika time.

 

As for his sincerity that doesnt have to be acting at all for him to be evil from our point of view. From his point of view these murders are part of some greater plan (that also involves the Nuva doing some more stuff) so he very well could think he's doing something "for the greater good" or something along those lines. Realistically until we get more story we wont be able to say much.

 

Bones brings up another good point about Velika's knowledge of the Red Star. It makes me think of a semi theory, maybe he got so ###### off about teh star malfunctioning that he's trying to send up as many warriors as possible so they can kill/reprogram the Kestora and get the red star working again (or reprogram it to accept agori and send people back down to SM now that the robot is destroyed). If that was the case he really would be killing them for the right reasons. However the red star link to the robot not its inhabitants right (otherwise Karzahni would be up there wouldnt he?). I dont know it wouldnt explain the tren krom murder but could explain some of this other stuff.


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#38 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 10:53 PM

The thing is, it doesn't really make sense (at least to me :P ) that Velika would do all this manipulation to aid Teridax in taking over the Matoran Universe when it would not really be necessary.

My point is, we don't really know if it was necessary or not. We don't know how adaptable the destiny system is.

 

 

From what we've seen from Velika, he is not really an evil person, and helping an evil mastermind who would end up killing thousands

I think he wouldn't really see it as helping the evil but counteracting the evil by luring it into doing what it's supposed to be doing anyways. :)

 

just to let SM be reformed when Teridax was originally intended to take over anyways doesn't seem to fit Velika.

Maybe not, but how do you figure? We don't know that much about "the real Velika". We have a good sense of his Matoran personality, but his GB personality seems fairly different in some ways, especially in that we do know he plays manipulative games -- he said so in his thoughts.

 

 

Moreso, Teridax reforming SM was an accident

I'm saying maybe it wasn't. ;) Maybe Velika manipulated events to make it more likely. That's basically the heart of what I'm theorizing. But even if it failed, Velika would be inside the giant robot, and maybe he had backup plans to take Terry out from inside, etc. while his main goal was to make sure the Reforming happened however it could (so the theory would go), so he'd be free to pursue the new secret goal.

 

 

Also, how would Velika have influenced Mutran and Tren Krom?

Well, Tren Krom is a tough answer, but Mutran's easy. Tons of ways to do it. Basically just construct events to plant the idea to have him go see TK. I kinda forget off the top of my head why exactly Mutran did go there. Anywho.

 

With TK, I get the sense that Velika sent a messenger to him, without giving the messenger much information besides that he was hired by someone with power or the like. If he would do it carefully, TK would not be able to get any information on Velika's real goals because the mind of the messenger wouldn't contain them. But he may know a code phrase or something that would identify the boss later.

 

My guess is Velika sent a message to him that planted the idea of giving the info of the workings of the universe out to whoever came in next, and in return, TK would be freed, but it may take a very long time. That would explain everything about TK from then on. He wouldn't know what Mutran's role was to be later, nor the connection to Teridax, nor who the boss is, but he was freed later, and he would attribute it to this boss. Then, when Velika approached, he could use the code phrase to identify himself and gain a few seconds of trust to get close enough to use whatever weapon he used on him.

 

Keep in mind we've already concluded Velika must have exceptional mental self-control against telepaths, so it's plausible he could hide his real intentions even from TK with a ploy like this.

 

 

Maybe he could see what's happening all over the MU, maybe he can't, but the lack of solid evidence seems to render that speculation.

All that's needed in this case is that he know Teridax's destiny and through messengers among Matoran slaves or whatever keep a proverbial ear listening to what's going on with him. He could learn by this way that Teridax went evil, and also learn enough of his tactics to recognize his brilliance. From there, it's a matter of getting more details on his personality to know how to manipulate him.


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#39 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 06:51 AM

 

The thing is, it doesn't really make sense (at least to me :P ) that Velika would do all this manipulation to aid Teridax in taking over the Matoran Universe when it would not really be necessary.

My point is, we don't really know if it was necessary or not. We don't know how adaptable the destiny system is.

 

 

From what we've seen from Velika, he is not really an evil person, and helping an evil mastermind who would end up killing thousands

I think he wouldn't really see it as helping the evil but counteracting the evil by luring it into doing what it's supposed to be doing anyways. :)

 

just to let SM be reformed when Teridax was originally intended to take over anyways doesn't seem to fit Velika.

Maybe not, but how do you figure? We don't know that much about "the real Velika". We have a good sense of his Matoran personality, but his GB personality seems fairly different in some ways, especially in that we do know he plays manipulative games -- he said so in his thoughts.

 

 

Moreso, Teridax reforming SM was an accident

I'm saying maybe it wasn't. ;) Maybe Velika manipulated events to make it more likely. That's basically the heart of what I'm theorizing. But even if it failed, Velika would be inside the giant robot, and maybe he had backup plans to take Terry out from inside, etc. while his main goal was to make sure the Reforming happened however it could (so the theory would go), so he'd be free to pursue the new secret goal.

 

 

Also, how would Velika have influenced Mutran and Tren Krom?

Well, Tren Krom is a tough answer, but Mutran's easy. Tons of ways to do it. Basically just construct events to plant the idea to have him go see TK. I kinda forget off the top of my head why exactly Mutran did go there. Anywho.

 

With TK, I get the sense that Velika sent a messenger to him, without giving the messenger much information besides that he was hired by someone with power or the like. If he would do it carefully, TK would not be able to get any information on Velika's real goals because the mind of the messenger wouldn't contain them. But he may know a code phrase or something that would identify the boss later.

 

My guess is Velika sent a message to him that planted the idea of giving the info of the workings of the universe out to whoever came in next, and in return, TK would be freed, but it may take a very long time. That would explain everything about TK from then on. He wouldn't know what Mutran's role was to be later, nor the connection to Teridax, nor who the boss is, but he was freed later, and he would attribute it to this boss. Then, when Velika approached, he could use the code phrase to identify himself and gain a few seconds of trust to get close enough to use whatever weapon he used on him.

 

Keep in mind we've already concluded Velika must have exceptional mental self-control against telepaths, so it's plausible he could hide his real intentions even from TK with a ploy like this.

 

 

Maybe he could see what's happening all over the MU, maybe he can't, but the lack of solid evidence seems to render that speculation.

All that's needed in this case is that he know Teridax's destiny and through messengers among Matoran slaves or whatever keep a proverbial ear listening to what's going on with him. He could learn by this way that Teridax went evil, and also learn enough of his tactics to recognize his brilliance. From there, it's a matter of getting more details on his personality to know how to manipulate him.

 

Muran didn't go on his own freewill; he was ordered by the Brotherhood because they needed someone who was already a bit crazy to go see TK so they don't risk the sanity of a normal person. I get the impression Mutran didn't want to go.

 

Also, Tren Krom throughout the story never seemed to express any insane desire to leave his cave. When he finally freed himself, he didn't vow revenge on the Great Beings or Mata Nui. I suppose it may have bothered him a little, but he seemed to accept his fate.

 

Overall, your theory could work, I suppose, but it does kind of seem to be mostly built on one piece of evidence, that Tren Krom trusted Velika. The rest is how things could have happened. Hopefully Greg will pick up the serials again and we'll see how events were supposed to unfold.

 

@Great Being#1: I doubt that Velika is trying to send people to the Red Star. It never showed up in his thoughts, and he seemed to be trying to permanently eradicate his targets. For example, he killed Tren Krom, whose organic state would not have allowed him to be revived regardless of where he was (come to think of it, why did Velika bother teleporting him to SM? Kiling him in the MU would have produced the same results.)

 

I really wish we could get clear, straight answers on all the details of how the Red Star's system worked/works, because all this uncertainty regarding it months after its purpose was revealed is becoming pretty annoying :P


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#40 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 10:22 AM

Overall, your theory could work, I suppose, but it does kind of seem to be mostly built on one piece of evidence, that Tren Krom trusted Velika.

Actually I don't see that piece as essential to the theory (he could also just presume TK might want to use his only trump card, his information, in the hopes of getting freedom). More important is that Velika said himself that he is very good at manipulating people without their being aware of it. You don't get like that without practice, and that he thinks he's good at it with MU beings implies he practiced the ability while in there. :) From there it's easy to extrapolate that he may have been in a contest of wills of sorts with Teridax who was the other manipulative mastermind.

 

And pretty sure TK did not enjoy being trapped. I'm sure after a while he wasn't raving furiously about it, but he went from early ruler of a sort to prisoner, and it's only natural he'd want out.

 

 

 

(come to think of it, why did Velika bother teleporting him to SM? Kiling him in the MU would have produced the same results.)

Maybe the hidden weapon we've theorized about before was there.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 14 2012 - 10:24 AM.

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