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Ramifications of Velika being a GB


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#41 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 12:22 PM

So we dont know if the red star is still teleporting people to it even from SM? I guess youre right the memorial wouldn't make much sense but still maybe he's making it in case they cant figure out a way to get back :S I dont know


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#42 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 01:54 PM

Well, we MIGHT have an answer on that but it's confusingly worded, so I had to extrapolate it from several questions logically.

 

First:

 

Can the Red Star still teleport the dead MU inhabitants to it now that the MU is effectively destroyed, and if not, how was it able to reach the Matoran in canisters in Voya Nui to turn them into the Toa Inika?

It can't teleport right now, because the system is broken. As for the Inika, that wasn't teleportation at work, that was electrical discharge.

This implies that nobody is being revived at all but I do NOT think that's what Greg meant. It seems the Inika part of the question may have confused him as to what the first part was asking, and he meant that the Sendback teleporter is broken. Here's some more that seems to clarify things:

 

How long ago was the Red Star broken? From the start, or was it due to the Great Cataclysm?

It stopped working quite a while before the events of Mystery of Metru Nui, which is why no one was looking around for Lhikan to come back.

And this:

 

Can you name anyone other than Mavrah who [is] alive in the Red Star?LhikanBasically, anyone whose body was not disintegrated would be there.So no Matoro, no Brotherhood members, nobody who had no body left

So, by "the system is broken", Greg may mean just the Sendback teleporter. As far as I know he has not clearly said that the system had a second failure ever.

 

So this would seem to say that anybody whose body is intact is still being revived, anywhere. Add to that this answer:

 

 

As well as the fact that he was on Spherus Magna and the RS could not have brought him back anyways?

Well, we don't know that.The RS is keyed in to MU inhabitants.We don't know the fact that he was no longer in the MU would have made a difference. Might have made a difference to his being sent back ...But the RS isn't sending anyone back now anyway.

 

Which was in the context of this:

 

 

 

Okay, now what about the mental image of the Red Star that Tren Krom projected right before his death?

TK was killed by a Great Being. The RS image served two purposes -- to TK, it symbolized the Great Beings, and ..it was a bit of irony .. as a completely organic being, the RS could not bring him back

 

 

Therefore, Greg's reasoning as to why TK is not on the Red Star is that he's organic, and possibly his body was too destroyed anyways.

 

As for Karzahni and the victims in the fortress, it's still confusing. Karzahni clearly has a body left, but maybe his brain is smashed. Greg seems to say that any body left at all; "something to work with" is good enough to get revived (but with memories? Maybe not if your brain is ruined?) -- yet, he also said that Velika is "cleaning house".

 

Translation: I'm still confused. :P


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#43 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 02:02 PM

Also, how would Velika have influenced Mutran and Tren Krom?

Well, Tren Krom is a tough answer, but Mutran's easy. Tons of ways to do it. Basically just construct events to plant the idea to have him go see TK. I kinda forget off the top of my head why exactly Mutran did go there. Anywho.

The reason for the meeting was obvious: the Brotherhood could not allow a being of such power to dwell unchecked in our universe. We had to know his intent and whether he posed a threat to the lands we watched over. Thus I followed a trail of half-remembered stories told by the mad until I reached the shore of an island whose shores had not welcomed a visitor in millennia.


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#44 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 14 2012 - 02:06 PM

So there's a chance my mini-theory is plausible then if the Red Star does indeed still take the dead from MN. I admit its more than shaky but it kinda makes sense and that way we could still think of Velika as a good guy.


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#45 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 12:11 AM

@bonesii IMO I still see your theory as mostly being "Velika could have done so and so" rather than "we have evidence Velika did do so and so." I didn't get the impression that Velika's a master manipulator from what we saw from his perspective in The Powers That Be, just that he's good at not being noticed. Moreso, whether Velika was aware of stuff that was going on all around the MU depends on what abilities the GBs have, how do they have, and if how much Velika could do in his Matoran form, all of which are topics that we are yet to receive clear answers to. Basically, the idea might be possible, but right now I don't see much evidence for it IMO. Maybe you do, but that's alright; we can agree to disagree :)

 

I still stand by my opinion that Velika's goal doesn't involve the Red Star. He should have received Tren Krom's telepathic message. and the fact that he continued his plan without worry seems ti imply the Red Star doesn't matter to him, so he was not concerned if any one else received the message. Also, he did mention that the universe would be better off without them in The Powers That Be, a statement which implies he's exterminating them permanently.

 

I think it's be best for Erebus to re-ask the question regarding whether people can get revived from SM. The way Greg worded it is very vague and is causing a lot of confusion. Having a clear answer on this can help us better understand Velika's goals.


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#46 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 01:24 AM

@bonesii IMO I still see your theory as mostly being "Velika could have done so and so" rather than "we have evidence Velika did do so and so."

Right. :) I think we're forced to conclude that he got practice manipulating MU beings, but that could have been just a part of holding his cover, and maybe setting up for this plan. It isn't necessarily evidence for him manipulating Teridax specifically.

 

I do think, though, that we have strong reasons to believe that IF he saw that the destiny systems alone could not compensate for the unexpected accidental full sapience, then he likely would have stepped in to help them along. And that would make sense. The key I guess would be to know just how adaptive those systems are.

 

Come to think of it, he may have only needed to make some editing to that code; a software update, and done nothing else specifically about Teridax.

 

Or no software update may have been needed and his practice came from something else entirely. :shrugs:

 

 

I didn't get the impression that Velika's a master manipulator from what we saw from his perspective in The Powers That Be, just that he's good at not being noticed.

Well, he clearly thinks he is one. It's possible to be wrong, but he is a GB, not your average yokel. :P And usually that kind of observation is made in fiction by characters who have some experience in it so they're making an honest self-observation.

 

 

I still stand by my opinion that Velika's goal doesn't involve the Red Star. He should have received Tren Krom's telepathic message. and the fact that he continued his plan without worry seems ti imply the Red Star doesn't matter to him, so he was not concerned if any one else received the message. Also, he did mention that the universe would be better off without them in The Powers That Be, a statement which implies he's exterminating them permanently.

Well now I've gotten foggy again as to the exactness of that quote, but he DID exterminate TK permanently. Was that talking about the two villains specifically, or did it include the fortress folks?

 

And, would you say, then, that his apparent sincerity of goodness in 2006 was almost totally an act, then, and he really is a psychopath? I dunno... I still find that hard to swallow. Wouldn't it be cool to learn that although he may be quite nuts, he didn't intend for the good guys in the fortress to die permanently? (As for what his RS-related goals might be, that's another matter; it's enough just to consider that he might have some.)

 

Also, fiction's chock full of villains (evil or misguided alike) who plow ahead confidently even though there's reason to suspect it's not as foolproof as it should be. :shrugs:


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#47 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 09:23 AM

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Er... wasn't he going to blow the fortress up? I think that might cause at least a few permanent deaths... :lol:[/color][/font]


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#48 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 09:52 AM

@bonesii I too don't think that Velika's actions in 2006 were a mere act; I've looked through the 2006 books recently and Velika's actions are too consistent and sincere to be an act. I think the Velika we saw in 2006 was the real Velika, which is why I think he doesn't see what he's doing now as bad; he probably feels he's doing it for the best.

 

Here's the quote from The Powers That Be that I was referring to: 

 

 

A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.

I don't think he'd word it like that if he was simply sending them to the Red Star; they could still be potential threats even there. Also, as a GB Velika should be well aware of the Star's function, and he probably noticed that people who were dying weren't being sent back in his time on Voya Nui. If Velika intends to kill them permanently without destroying their bodies, that pretty much confirms that the Red Star's teleporter is broken both ways, to and from. But we don't know that. so...

 

Also, I think there's something to the brutality of the murders, a clue we're supposed to pick up on, given that specific attention was called how disturbing the murders were both times:

 

 

 

Pohatu whisked Kopaka down the steep slope to the bottom of the canyon. Even the Toa of Ice, who had seen his share of gruesome sights, was struck by the horror of the scene. It only took a moment’s glance to confirm that the corpse matched the description Toa Jaller once gave of Karzahni.

 

And here as well:

 

 

 

Pohatu shook his head. “Lesovikk didn’t kill him. At least, I don’t think so. Lesovikk was angry at Karzahni, out for revenge, but he wasn’t insane. Whoever did this … well, let’s just say there were cleaner ways to get rid of Tren Krom.”

 

Pohatu seems to imply the murderer is insane, but I found something else that could shed light on this:

 

 

 

 

For his part, Kopaka was focusing on the murder. All the evidence pointed in one direction, but what if it wasn’t the right direction? Sure, Lesovikk had means, motive and opportunity to kill Karzahni, but so did a lot of others. For that matter, what if this wasn’t about Karzahni, not personally?

Pohatu didn’t get where his friend was going. “Someone stabbed him with a sword and pushed him over a cliff. How is that not personal?”

Kopaka shrugged. “I don’t know. It’s simply … what if it wasn’t about something Karzahni had done, so much as what he represented?

 

I think it's possible none of these murders are on a personal level. Velika seems to be killing whoever wields great power, but the question is why? Because they could be dangerous. I think the answer is more complicated than that.

 

@Chro If he was going to blow it up and not simply collapse it, yeah, I could see several of them having their bodies obliterated from the blast. 


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#49 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 01:24 PM

Well Velika obviously hated how poorly he was fixed when sent to Karzahni so that could be an answer to his murder but it would not explain much else.


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#50 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 02:05 PM

Er... wasn't he going to blow the fortress up? I think that might cause at least a few permanent deaths... :lol:

His thinking about it seemed more like "take a brick out here and the whole thing collapses" which doesn't make me think of a massive (vaporizing) explosion. More like a tiny explosion that takes advantage of a vulnerability. I've been presuming, because of this, that the deaths would happen by rocks hitting them; top candidates for RS revival.

 

Could be wrong, though.

 

 

 

A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.

I don't think he'd word it like that if he was simply sending them to the Red Star

Nah, that could mean anything. I've already given several theories about that, remember? Sending a bunch of good guys to the RS to take out the nutso Kestora and the remaining villainry (while permanently eliminating villains like TK) would logically be another way to make the universe better off. A pretty obvious way IMO. Especially if later they could then "re-key" it into even SM inhabitants and fix the Sendback with SM as the destination.

 

Plus there was my "I want the RS as a spaceship to another planet in this system" theory, although that's very shaky.

 

But what I'm driving at is, what alternative is there to keep Velika 2006 genuine while permanently killing a bunch of good guys? I'm having trouble imagining any.

 

 

 

 

Well Velika obviously hated how poorly he was fixed when sent to Karzahni so that could be an answer to his murder but it would not explain much else.

We've got further evidence for that from Greg's answer to my question about if he intended to get damaged and go to Karzahni for any reason. Greg answered that he did not think it was intentional. (Which also gives us some insight into the limits of his powers, perhaps, although it's also possible there were witnesses to his accident so he couldn't fix himself without blowing his cover.) So, it makes a lot of sense to say he held an emotional grudge against Karzahni. But this is probably a two-birds-one-stone thing; removing villains specifically makes strategic sense as well, and he's probably well aware of that.


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#51 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 02:15 PM

while permanently eliminating villains like TK

 

Huh? Tren Krom wasn't a villain.


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#52 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 02:28 PM

That depends on the definition of villain. :P Traditionally the Bohrok for example are treated as villains, though through being misguided. Here I mean people who could oppose the overall good, from Velika's perspective. TK is a wild card, as Greg put it:

 

 

Velika is eliminating wild cards, beings who are acting way outside of the expected parameters of the GB's plans.

So from Velika's perspective, this is a villain. :)

 

We could just say "wild cards" though to avoid confusion...


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#53 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 04:46 PM

Are we sure he's eliminating just people who are acting out of the GB's plans however? I feel like basically everybody from the MU should be dead by that description.


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#54 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 05:27 PM

@Chro If he was going to blow it up and not simply collapse it, yeah, I could see several of them having their bodies obliterated from the blast. 

[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=#808080;]Ah, my mistake. I thought he intended to kill those inside directly by blowing them up, instead of collapsing the fortress...[/color][/font]


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#55 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 15 2012 - 11:17 PM

@bonesii But if Velika killed Tren Krom permanently because he was a "wild card" and the rest that Velika are hunting are classified by Greg as being "wild cards", wouldn't that mean Velika's aim is to permanently exterminate them as well?


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#56 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 03:03 PM

@bonesii But if Velika killed Tren Krom permanently because he was a "wild card" and the rest that Velika are hunting are classified by Greg as being "wild cards", wouldn't that mean Velika's aim is to permanently exterminate them as well?

Well, there's several problems with that.

 

1) The method of killing at the fortress doesn't seem to be permanently fatal, does it? Falling rubble is one of the most likely ways to leave "something to work with", and these are, with the exception of Lifer, MU beings, so apparently the RS is still "keyed into them" and would revive them up there. Unless, perhaps, their brains were smashed.

 

Or maybe the time limit thing might mean some would sit there too long and decay too much to be revived. :shrugs:

 

2) I still don't see how we could both see him as permanently killing everybody in the fortress, and at the same time see him as genuine in 2006. It's mainly an answer to this that I'm looking for.

 

3) If my theory that he wants to send some up as agents to defeat wildcards up on the RS is right, then this is still part of that same process. Incidentally, part of the reason I came up with this is that he's killing Helryx, who shares his "it's okay to kill villains" mindset, and maybe Artakha might go along with it too. Then there's an Order agent, Axonn, and maybe Brutaka might obey too? And Miserix, and Tuyet, and Vezon, all people who have killed (although I forget if Vezon ever actually did, but I think he would). Coincidence? Methinks no.

 

Of this group, only Lewa, Kapura, and Hafu would not kill if they could avoid it, and Lewa got dragged away. So it's just those two Matoran... and maybe Artakha, not sure.

 

I'm presuming Lifer can't be revived, and Velika would be glad to see him dead for good if only to stop the wildcardness of his curse.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 16 2012 - 03:53 PM.

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#57 Offline Great Being #1

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 03:33 PM

Bones that's exactly what i said 15-20 posts ago (near the end of page one) except that i phrased it in a way of the people "fixing" the red star rather than killing the Kestora (maybe they can reprogram them or something). :P


Edited by Great Being #1, Dec 16 2012 - 03:33 PM.

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#58 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 05:15 PM

@bonesii

1) But we still don't know if the Red Star works on SM, right? We still need that crucial piece of information.

2) Velika's likely a good guy who sees what he is doing as right. From our perspective, though, what he is doing is wrong, yeah; I think it's possible Velika may have simply been decided by Greg to be a villain now.

3) Your theory makes sense, but it doesn't seem to be what the story was building towards to; meaning that the clues Greg specifically included in the serials (the brutality of the murders, the possibility that the killed are being killed due to what they represent) doesn't seem to be explained by it.

 

Also, my interpretation of Greg's statement was that he was killing people that could pose a danger to Velika's real plan; if so, Velika is exterminating people who could get in his way (although I suppose you could argue he could be hitting two birds with one stone by having them out of the way and also liberate the Red Star.) 


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#59 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 07:08 PM

1) See my earlier post with the latest quotes from Greg; apparently, the RS is keyed into MU inhabitants, and Greg did not want to commit to a denial that it would revive people from SM. He did say it would likely not teleport them back to SM, but that's broken anyways.

 

So, for now we should presume that it likely would revive people from SM, yes.

 

2) So do you think Greg would say 2006 was an act in terms of Velika seeming good? Obviously there are shades of gray too; I'm not saying he's completely evil. But yeah, I stand by what I said on this, unless someone can come up with some other alternative for how he is genuinely good while being okay with killing Matoran and Toa (since he admitted in his thoughts he wants to kill the Nuva later).

 

3) The key is that we don't know what Velika's real plan is, so we shouldn't assume it has nothing to do with the Red Star. He thinks of it as "grand" and right now that's about the grandest thing we know of in current operation. After all, that's the same serial in which Kopaka and Pohatu went up to the RS and basically just discovered (by meeting Mavrah, and obviously the next chapter or so would feature Mavrah revealing how he got there; what Greg revealed to us instead) what it does. What the story is building towards thus is likely to tie those two major strings together. 

 

We don't know it for sure, but that's par for the course in Theoryville. ^_^


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#60 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 16 2012 - 07:35 PM

1) See my earlier post with the latest quotes from Greg; apparently, the RS is keyed into MU inhabitants, and Greg did not want to commit to a denial that it would revive people from SM. He did say it would likely not teleport them back to SM, but that's broken anyways.

 

So, for now we should presume that it likely would revive people from SM, yes.

 

2) So do you think Greg would say 2006 was an act in terms of Velika seeming good? Obviously there are shades of gray too; I'm not saying he's completely evil. But yeah, I stand by what I said on this, unless someone can come up with some other alternative for how he is genuinely good while being okay with killing Matoran and Toa (since he admitted in his thoughts he wants to kill the Nuva later).

 

3) The key is that we don't know what Velika's real plan is, so we shouldn't assume it has nothing to do with the Red Star. He thinks of it as "grand" and right now that's about the grandest thing we know of in current operation. After all, that's the same serial in which Kopaka and Pohatu went up to the RS and basically just discovered (by meeting Mavrah, and obviously the next chapter or so would feature Mavrah revealing how he got there; what Greg revealed to us instead) what it does. What the story is building towards thus is likely to tie those two major strings together. 

 

We don't know it for sure, but that's par for the course in Theoryville. ^_^

1) Keyed to MU inhabitants... that worries me about something else entirely. How does this affect Matoro's sacrifice? If he hadn't sacrificed himself and everyone died, would they have simply been revived? I sincerely hope not; Greg went out of his way to make sure Matoro was not revived on the Red Star, so I'd like to think he preserved the validity of his sacrifice. Also, the fact that the Great Beings created the Ignika in the first place to save the universe definitely suggests the Red Star couldn't have saved the inhabitants.

 

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic.

 

2) No, I don't think it was an act, but I do think Greg would explain Velika's thinking like this: he's a nice guy, but he believes that what he is doing now is alright; it's for "the greater good." In short, the ends justify the means. It's the same thinking the Order of Mata Nui has, seeing as they killed innocent people simply for knowing Artakha's location, and that's just one example. If any thing, the Order could be seen as being pretty evil. 

 

3) You do have a point here, although I'm pretty certain that The Yesterday Quest is going to join up with The Powers That Be seeing as Velika is in both of them. The Red Star could still be involved, even though I'm wondering why Velika didn't seem worried about TK's message. I'll concede this point though; the clues regarding the bodies and possible motives could still be part of the conclusion of the mystery even if the Red Star is involved. 


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#61 Offline Great Being Velika

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Posted Dec 22 2012 - 03:05 PM

Not sure how new this revelation is as I've been MIA from the bionicle community for a solid 2 years but doesnt that revelation bring up some interesting plot holes?

 

For example i was thinking couldn't he have single-handedly done away with the Priraka and led the Inika to the Mask of Light? Couldn't he have dealt with the Barraki and other members of the pit that were causing trouble? Or done something about Teridax? I'm not quite sure how powerful he was but i'm sure he could have done certain things to help rather than sit back and basically enjoy the show. Especially considering the main point of Mata Nui was to help the GBs restore Spherus Magna.

 

Also not sure if this stuff was already talked about somewhere and i'm just making a dupe topic sorry if I am.

 

Velika was not going to help anyone. He decided to remain incognito to observe his creations without interfering with them.


Edited by Great being Velika, Dec 22 2012 - 03:05 PM.

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